Hamas would dearly love for Israel to invade Gaza in order to get the world on their side and for Israel to suffer casualties. Then they would agree to a hudna. They are trying to exact concessions from Israel which Israel should reject like the plague. Ted Belman
Egyptian and Turkish leaders in Gaza mediation bid
DEBKAfile Exclusive Report November 18, 2012, 5:07 AM (GMT+02:00)
Israeli air and naval forces launched heavy assaults in Gaza before dawn Sunday, Nov. 18 – Day 5 of the IDF’s Gaza operation – after daylong bargaining Saturday among Washington, Jerusalem, Cairo and Gaza, failed to produce an Israel-Hamas truce accord. When Egyptian and Turkish middlemen suggested a ceasefire was close, Israel accused them of pushing Hamas’s terms which were fashioned to present the Palestinian radicals as the victor in the contest. The trio leading the Israeli war, Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu, Defense Minister Ehud Barak and Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman, countered by intensifying the IDF’s Gaza offensive – though not as yet sending ground troops in.
A Western source said it would take some days to determine if a ceasefire was feasible.
Egyptian intelligence meanwhile smuggled Hamas Prime Minister Islmail Haniyeh out of Gaza and over to El Arish in northern Sinai in the convoy of visiting Tunisian Foreign Minister Rafiq Abdessalem when he departed Gaza Saturday, DEBKAfile reports.
Friday night, Israel bombers struck government headquarters in Gaza City.
Egyptian President Mohamed Morsi decided that Haniyeh must be continuously available at the end of a phone to lead the Hamas side in the ceasefire negotiations. This was not possible so long as the Hamas prime minister remained in Gaza. All of Hamas leaders have gone to ground for fear of targeted assassination by Israel. They have switched off their phones and electronic communications to avoid giving away their locations to Israeli surveillance. Haniyeh was even afraid to communicate with Cairo through the Egyptian military mission in Gaza.
In these circumstances, Morsi and Erdogan’s were prevented from get their ceasefire mediation bid off the ground. Moving Haniyeh to El Arish put a Hamas negotiator in place to lead the give-and-take for a truce. Our sources have not discovered if he is still there or has moved back to Gaza.
The Turkish prime minister brought a secret passenger in the plane bringing him to Cairo Saturday. He is Saleh Aruri, formerly of the Hamas military wing. Aruri had spent 15 years in an Israeli prison for terrorism and murder until he was released on Oct. 18, 2011 in the prisoner exchange for the Israeli soldier Gilead Shalit on condition he went into exile.
Turkey granted him asylum and its intelligence agency MIT gave him free rein to set up an operational command in Istanbul for Hamas terrorist networks on the West Bank.
On arrival in Cairo, the Turkish prime minister put Aruri in charge of the contacts with Haniyeh.
At a news conference in Cairo Saturday night, the Egyptian president and Turkish prime minister reported “some indications that there could be a ceasefire soon” although “there were still no guarantees.”
The guarantees issue has become a pivotal bargaining point.
Israel, backed by the United States, insists that a ceasefire be signed between the US, Egypt, Turkey and Israel, and exclude Hamas, which would be bound by a separate agreement with Cairo.
Netanyahu, Barak and Lieberman are asking the United States to act as guarantor for a ceasefire. Erdogan has countered by inviting Russian President Vladimir Putin to join US President Barack Obama as victor.
Hamas has rejected all of Israel’s terms.
During the night, Israel denied reports circulating in Cairo that an Israeli negotiator was heading for the Egyptian capital to get down to the specifics of an emerging truce deal. The three Israeli war leaders decided not to fall into the trap laid by Morsi and Erdogan. Instead, they told the IDF to press ahead with the operation until its objectives were attained – hence the launching of a fresh air and sea assault before daybreak Sunday.
OC Southern Command, Maj. Gen. Tal Rousso defined those objectives to reporters Saturday night as “eliminating the war arsenals of Hamas and terrorist organizations and restoring peace and normality to the population of southern Israel.”
The ground operation is meanwhile delayed, in accordance with Netanyahu’s promise to President Obama in their conversation early Saturday, that a full-scale ground invasion would not go forward so long as there was a chance of a ceasefire – unless there was escalation from Hamas or a strike that caused significant casualties.
A western source in Cairo familiar with the truce negotiations reported that Obama has not yet decided whether he wants to be directly involved in any ceasefire deal, which in any case has not reached the concluding stage. “The cake dough is still being kneaded and not yet ready to for the oven,” he said.
Publicly he supports IL, privately he does nothing except tying IL hands … according to some. IL needs to control the Phil corridor at the minimum.
@ Max:
U will have to deprogram/reprogram 1.2 Billion people!!!!!
I joined the moderation club.
But I’m innocent!!!!!!
Well apparently everybody is guilty of something, sometime …
@ ArnoldHarris:
Very good. A person also needs to deprogram themselves from former inducted educational brainwashing and induced identity dysfunction and and then there is hope that they can understand the world as it really is.
Once a person has been deprogrammed -they can go back to the MSM and remain largely un-manipulated by it if taken in small doses though even small doses can induce vomiting and nausea in a person whose mind is clear. It might be good to keep some sedatives on hand in case of inadvertent prolonged exposure to the MSM especially at times like this.
Max,
I presume MSM refers to “mainstream media”.
We have no television in our house. I am able to ignore National Public Radio by shutting the door of my office. And our last uses for print media, mainstream or otherwise, disappeared when we both discovered that our two cats preferred kitty litter for purposes of engaging in the process of natural elimination.
Arnold Harris
Mount Horeb WI
@ ArnoldHarris:
At least they sometimes get printed. The CBC just deletes pro-Israeli comments. Actually just about in all Western online MSM you got 1 chance in 10 of being printed.
I see that my most recent “Your comment is awaiting moderation” tag was lifted about one minute after my follow-up comment appeared.
Ted, kindly restore the warning about moderation. I like to be awarded ornaments that indicate membership in some sort of aristocracy of the intellect.
Long live censorship.
Arnold Harris
Mount Horeb WI
“Your comment is awaiting moderation”.
I have come to the inevitable conclusion that the only comments on Israpundit that fail to get that tag-line put there by Ted Belman’s software are the not-infrequent driblets of non-controversial pablum offered up by droolers.
But anyone here who has anything significant to say can count themselves as part of an aristocracy of the censored.
Arnold Harris
Mount Horeb WI
Israel should not laden its taxpayers with the burden of supplying free food, housing and medical care for criminals and terrorists. Nor should its foreign ministry and ministry of defense, which frequently act more like ministries of propaganda, have to undertake the demeaning burden of explaining why this or that Arab has been confined for life. Also, imprisoned Arabs are frequently and correctly used by Arab terror gangs as expected ransom for Israelis whom they kidnap.
The ones killed in firefights should be gathered up and buried. All the others should be expelled. The costs of either killing them or expelling them are insignificant in comparison with the costs of maintaining them as an unwilling hostile population awaiting an opportunity to kill any Jew who is dumb enough to fall within reach of their knives or small hidden small arms.
Besides. It is the land that Israel needs for its growing Jewish population, not the local Arab population. As Prime Minister Levi Eshkol once wisely remarked about Yehuda, Shomron and Gaza, Israel wants the dowry, and not the bride.
As for arguments that no government will agree to take in expelled Arabs: Who gives a damn about that? Just push them in large numbers across one of Israel’s borders, and never, ever allow any of them to return. Israel is more or less in a state of endless war with all the neighboring states, or at least with their Muslim populations. So whatever they think about dealing with the expelled Arabs doesn’t matter at all. All that counts is to shove them out as far as practicable from places where Jews will be building cities, towns, and industries and tilling the soils in the future.
And tell the Arabs, all the other Muslims, and the rest of the world as well that if they don’t like the Arabs getting that kind of treatment, make absolutely certain they are never again allowed to attack the Jewish state and the Jewish nation.
Arnold Harris
Mount Horeb WI
@ yamit82:
We have hears all of this before, enuff alreadyzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.
@ David Sternlight:
Having served many years in the IDF both in the West Bank and Gaza I submit that there are differences in populations. Most of the WB Arabs are urban dwellers and most of the Gazans tied to agriculture and fishing. That said, since 67 most terrorists and their organizations were and still are from the WB. Gaza is fenced and sealed off from Israel.
The reason why WB seems more amiable today is because for the last 8 year the IDF and Shabak control the situation there. The security wall aids in our effort. Then politically most of their radical leaders like Bargutti are in prision. Israel has thousands of paid shtinkers( snitches) in the WB and we pretty much know when to round em up before they succeed in terror or organizion before they succeed. Pragmatic?
They are all stinking vermin. A good Arab is…. 😉
@ David Sternlight:
It was no joke then and not today. That same joke variation was said about Israel 100 years ago and even by some today.
That’s the problem with MIT education, too structured, leaving little to no room for creative thinking outside of perceived and given facts, linear logic and reality.
@ David Sternlight:
Bull !! In the last Gaza incursion where Egypt had sealed the border the Arabs in Gaza blew holes in the Iron wall and in mass entered Sinai with some but not effective resistance from the Egyptian military.
A bankrupt Egypt might well welcome pali refugees without admitting it so they could control and profit from the billions in aid they receive from donor nations UNRWA and do gooder NGO’s. All that is required is sufficient pressure by the IDF to create such a stampede. Not all Arabs have a death wish, most want to live and will act accordingly.
Israel’s strategic aims should be Gaza depopulation and eventual annexation to Israel. Worst comes to worst Gaza Gas off Gaza coast should be enough to compensate them.
@ David Sternlight:
You have reached your ideas late. This option is one bandied about in the IDF and political levels since we ran away from Gaza.
My suggestion below is doable and workable. Yours would put our military in a situation where they are surrounded by the enemy.
Don’t need to divide Gaza strip in half. Rafiach (Rafah) is enough. Destruction of all buildings within 2 Km of the border should be for the time being be long enough to render Tunneling too difficult. Should they be seen to have succeeded extend another 1 Km to the firing zone up to the border. A corridor for traffic into Egypt should be permitted with Israel in charge of inspecting persons and material in both directions. If Egypt keeps her border closed then Obama should press them to open it.
The real problem is Gaza. Once that is handled the West Bank offers many peacefully negotiated possibilities or the Gaza example if all else fails. West Bankers have always been pragmatic. Recall the days when their teachers got a double salary; one from Israel and one from a bag man who came over regularly from Jordan. Relative quiet reigned.
@ David Sternlight:
I am toying with the notion that the IDF might cut the Gaza Strip in half, Israel to annex the half at the Egyptian border. That would turn Gaza into a city- state without defense in depth or access to smuggling from Sinai. Attrition and a generous emigration policy might take care of much of the rest, and eventual conversion of Gaza city into an Israeli-Arab city
Comments?
.f@ David Sternlight:
Of course I except criminals, who belong in jail without the possibility of reproduction until their sentences are served. Finally, there is neither historical nor legal justification for “Palestinian” statehood. Arafat was an Egyptian, and artificially created Jordan IS the Arab state created in the region.
I am reminded of the old Betar joke: Both sides of the Jordan; by force if possible. 🙂
@ David Sternlight:
Israel cannot ” expel” people unless someone is willing to take them. The odd terrorist may find welcome in some sympathetic country, but mass expulsion will only work by agreement. Resettlement of refugees is what UNHCR was set up for, but the Arabs have created their own permanent UNRWA, whose goal is not resettlement, but a permanent and growing threat to Israel. It is long past time the US cut off contributions to UNRWA and insisten responsibility go to UNHCR for real (I.e. first generation) refugees. The remainder is the problem; most Arab “refugees” are not entitled to that status, but rather are stateless persons. How to solve that is the conundrum.
@ ArnoldHarris:
Mr Sternlight,
Surely you must understand by now that this war — this war that never shall end — is not about killing one Arab terrorist boss or another. It’s about expelling all the people from whence all the Yihiya Abiyas were born and bred to some much greater distance from the heartland of Eretz-Yisrael. And surely you must also understand that if Israel cannot do that, either from military weakness or the cowardice of the leadership of its government, then all this will lead to is another chain of temporary truces which the Arabs break as soon as they are rearmed.
Arnold Harris
Mount Horeb WI
8:02 pm: Times of Israel: Hamas rocket chief Yihya Abiya was killed in an Israeli xxxairstrikexxx assisted martyrdom operation.
Nothing will work — that means nothing whatsoever — unless and until the State of Israel militarily reoccupies the Gaza strip and re-asserts permanent control. This time, annex the territory, rebuild the Gush Katif Jewish settlements, then start combing through the Arab population. Anybody who causes any trouble whatsoever must be immediately expelled. That means just the way I wrote it; no prisons for any Arabs; just permanent expulsion. No costs to the State of Israel except for armored buses equipped to which expelees can be handcuffed and locked in place until each bus arrives at whichever border they will be shoved across. There, the UNO can feed them on US dollars for the rest of their lives.
When matters settle down and all the Hamas types will have been expelled, the government of Israel can begin negotiations with anybody willing to cooperate with the Jewish state. They can be put in charge of a local government with powers to police all the Arabs under their jurisdiction. The Arab police, things being what they are, will get cooperation by murdering enough of the young tough guys. The rest will take the hint and behave.
But nobody will cooperate with the Israelis at all unless and until it is made clear that neither Gaza nor any other part of the land west of the Jordan river will ever again have any truly independent Arab regime from which a state could be created.
Will the world howl? Certainly. But treat the whole place as a zone of military occupation, and arrest any so-called news media person who shows up there without specific permission of the Defense Ministry. Which means almost nobody. Do not permit any international personalities, UNO representatives, or anyone else. If they get obstreperous, arrest them, handcuff them, and unceremoniously put them aboard an aircraft to be flown out of the country, at the expense of the country in which they hold citizenship. Confiscate their cell phones, Iphones, laptop computers, and all other electronic gear. Then ban them permanently from obtaining visas to land in any airport or seaport of the State of Israel.
What to do about the Israeli traitors who cooperate with Israel’s enemies by supplying information to them injurious to Israel’s national interests? Organize secret right-wing mobs who will pick them up off the streets, break heir arms and legs, then toss them in the gutter.
Which shows you exactly what I really think about democracy.
But one thing will be quite certain: No rockets will ever again be fired off from any such land area under Israeli control, unless they are being fired off by Zahal.
Remember this, and never forget it. Nobody deserves — or keeps for very long — power they are not prepared to use. And power means exactly what the name implies, which is the capability and readiness to control the actions of others.
Arnold Harris
Mount Horeb WI
The condition for a ceasefire should be the demilitarization of gaza. Let hamas(the still living) stay for now but they must hand over their weapons. This demand, which is reasonable, is an objective that allows Israel to continue degrading their infrastructure while they negotiate. It is not enough to just stop firing rockets, weapons must be removed.
Another that didn’t get away
Myriads more to go!
Eric R. Said:
And do it now while they have the chance. When they have their chance they will not hesitate.
They already have the world on their side. Israel should wipe out Gaza to give the world a big, fat middle finger.
Listening to the radio now. One after another, including TA area. And the idiot Israeli reporters (including Carmela Menashe) are saying that the heavy rocket volleys are a good sign of an up-coming cease-fire, as Hamas just wants to show that they got the last laugh.
Lunacy
Apartment building hit in Ashkelon. Penetrated roof and went down 2 floors through several apartments. Reports of only 1 lightly wounded person so far. Miracles I am afraid we are unworthy of. 🙁
@ Shy Guy:
Hamas wants to “save face.” But its position can be expected to gradually worsen. The winner has no incentive to agree to a ceasefire.
When Hamas decides its had enough is an open question.
Just turned on the morning radio to hear Red Alert for Ashkelon Coast area.
And the beat goes on.