By Ted Belman
I just returned from an all day conference on US/Israel diplomacy in the wake of the past US elections and the effect of the Israeli elections a month from now.
Dennis Ross was the keynote speaker. He largely repeated yesterday’s speech but added his recommendations as to what Israel should do to remove the distrust and what the PA should do to remove the distrust. I won’t bother you with what he thought Israel should do but here is the list of what the PA should do:
-
– stop the incitement
– praise Israel when it does a good thing
– prepare the Palestinians for peace
– encourage social interaction between Arab youth and Jewish youth
– put Israel back on the map
– keep telling Israelis how good a neighbour it will be.
– embrace the idea of two states for two people
– prepare Palestinians to expect painful compromises by them
I thought, fat chance. If they did any one of them they wouldn’t be the PA. It serves to illustrate how estranged he is from reality.
The second speaker was the leading pollster in Israel, Dr Mina Tzemach. She introduced a very important poll on the attitude of Israelis to issues in the peace process. The questions were not blanket questions like do you favour the two-state solution but would you be willing to divide Jerusalem for peace. Or will a peace agreement bring peace? It was very interesting. I will get a copy of it and post it.
Then there was a panel on the Israel political aspects. Everyone thought that Bibi is electioneering and that after he is elected he won’t follow through with all the announced construction plans. Also that Bibi will bring in parties from the left and that all the leaders of these parties are positioning themselves to be included.
And finally the last panel with Itamar Rabinovich, Shlomo Avnineri and Zalman Shoval. Everyone thought that Israel was tethered to the demands of the peace processors and couldn’t detach herself. They talked about how if Israel persists in the construction of homes east of the green line that sanctions would result. They all felt that Israel must maintain her relationship with America. That both have similar strategic interests like dealing with Iran, chemical weapons in Syria and lawlessness in Sinai. The also share strategic interests in keeping the PA alive etc. They may agree to disagree or their differences may cause a rift and repercussions.
Avineri said something which I found interesting. He argued that when Israel plays the security card she gets a sympathetic hearing but when she builds settlements for ideological reasons her “friends” come down on her hard. Thus don’t do things for idealogical reasons because it jeopardizes our security interests. This reminded me of Bibi always saying that we won’t jeopardize our security rather than saying the land is ours and we want to keep as much of it as we can. So according to the peace process we are only entitled to security and not to our land rights.
But the Arabs do everything for ideological reasons. But we are not allowed to.
@ Honey Bee:
Seems to me you got a real lucky cowboy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ky623U8C7LE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7EWTJxlAcc
@ yamit82: Thanks for taking the time and making the effort to improve my understanding. I actually have a couple more questions which are on my mind concerning the same passages.
yamit82 Said:
I have read different versions of the phrase segment in bold(e.g.on their inward parts and some saying in their mind) What is striking to me is the recent discovery of DNA coding and how G_d can achieve this on a physical level. The revelation of DNA shows that information, programming instructing the development of an organism, history of the organism, are available in codes imprinted “within our midst” and “on our inward parts”. DNA coding demonstrates the biblical statement as reality regarding the physical organism and that it would be nothing for G_d to imprint the knowledge within our being(mind, heart, spirit) The microdot, achieved by man demonstrates how massive information of a linear nature can be transformed into a single point. As G_ds ways are higher than ours I am curious as to the revelations of DNA’s capability at this time. No one can even question scientifically that this “inscribing” is realistic in the light of the revelation of DNA.
This brings me to questions troubling me which may appear heretical. As you are the “site rabbi” I bring them to you.
Why would G_D create a situation whereby it is confusing to know what is the law and how it should be interpreted? We now clearly know that it is nothing for him to provide a clear path as he can imprint it within us. First, knowing the confusion which man sows, why create the oral tradition whereby different rabbis interpret his instructions differently and sometimes oppositely which leaves simple folk to apply their own “human” judgement as to who is right. It appears to me that wherever man is involved there will be confusion and conflict in understanding. Even regarding the Torah the question is whether meaning has changed in translation, or changed in successive publications. also, what is the original language that Moses received the Torah in and where is the original Torah. It appears that none can go to it for the pure truth, everything is filtered through man, which provides imperfect results, and yet it was not necessary for G_D to do so. Further, G_D who created the Tower of Babel and Language as a confusion to man, why would he communicate though a vehicle of confusion such as the written word. Is it possible that we were intended to be confused through those communications which come through man? Why a book, when so many in that time did not read therefore requiring mens’ interpretations? Surely G_D can communicate in ways which are higher than the linear, verbal reasoning of men. If G_D’s ways and thoughts are higher why would we think that our human and linear reasoning could be interpreting his intentions in Torah? This probably sounds weird, rambling and simplistic, as the questions are not fully formed in my mind. It also has nothing to do with this forum.
Bernard Ross Said:
Read the whole book of Joel, only 4 chapters.
Here is part of the book, part of Chapters 3- 4
And it shall come to pass afterwards that I will pour out My spirit upon all flesh, and your sons and daughters shall prophesy; your elders shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions. And even upon the slaves and the maidservants in those days will I pour out My spirit. And I will perform signs in the heavens and on the earth: Blood, fire, and pillars of smoke. The sun shall turn to darkness, and the moon to blood, prior to the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord. And it shall come to pass that whoever shall call in the name of the Lord shall be delivered, for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be a deliverance, as the Lord said, and among the survivors whom the Lord invites.
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Announce this among the nations, prepare war, arouse the mighty men; all the men of war shall approach and ascend.
Beat your plowshares into swords and your pruning hooks into spears; the weak one shall say, “I am mighty.”
Gather and come, all you nations from around, and they shall gather; there the Lord shall break your mighty men.
The nations shall be aroused and shall go up to the Valley of Jehoshaphat, for there I will sit to judge all the nations from around.
Stretch out a sickle, for the harvest is ripe; come, press, for the winepress is full; the vats roar, for their evil is great.
Multitudes [upon] multitudes in the valley of decision, for the day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision.
The sun and the moon have darkened, and the stars have withdrawn their shining.
And the Lord shall roar from Zion, and from Jerusalem He shall give forth His voice, and the heavens and earth shall quake, and the Lord is a shelter to His people and a stronghold for the children of Israel.
And you shall know that I, the Lord your God, dwell in Zion, My holy mount, and Jerusalem shall be holy, and strangers shall no longer pass through there.
And it shall come to pass on that day that the mountains shall drip with wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the springs of Judah shall flow with water, and a spring shall emanate from the house of the Lord and water the valley of Shittim.
And Egypt shall become desolate, and Edom shall be a desert waste, because of the violence done to the children of Judah, because they shed innocent blood in their land.
But Judah shall remain forever, and Jerusalem throughout all generations.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Amos 9:-14-15
And I will return the captivity of My people Israel, and they shall rebuild desolate cities and inhabit [them], and they shall plant vineyards and drink their wine, and they shall make gardens and eat their produce.
And I will plant them on their land, and they shall no longer be uprooted from upon their land, that I have given them, said the Lord your God.
@ Bernard Ross:Said:
Read the whole book of Joel, only 4 chapters.
Here is part of the book, part of Chapters 3- 4
And it shall come to pass afterwards that I will pour out My spirit upon all flesh, and your sons and daughters shall prophesy; your elders shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions. And even upon the slaves and the maidservants in those days will I pour out My spirit. And I will perform signs in the heavens and on the earth: Blood, fire, and pillars of smoke. The sun shall turn to darkness, and the moon to blood, prior to the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord. And it shall come to pass that whoever shall call in the name of the Lord shall be delivered, for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be a deliverance, as the Lord said, and among the survivors whom the Lord invites.
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Announce this among the nations, prepare war, arouse the mighty men; all the men of war shall approach and ascend.
Beat your plowshares into swords and your pruning hooks into spears; the weak one shall say, “I am mighty.”
Gather and come, all you nations from around, and they shall gather; there the Lord shall break your mighty men.
The nations shall be aroused and shall go up to the Valley of Jehoshaphat, for there I will sit to judge all the nations from around.
Stretch out a sickle, for the harvest is ripe; come, press, for the winepress is full; the vats roar, for their evil is great.
Multitudes [upon] multitudes in the valley of decision, for the day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision.
The sun and the moon have darkened, and the stars have withdrawn their shining.
And the Lord shall roar from Zion, and from Jerusalem He shall give forth His voice, and the heavens and earth shall quake, and the Lord is a shelter to His people and a stronghold for the children of Israel.
And you shall know that I, the Lord your God, dwell in Zion, My holy mount, and Jerusalem shall be holy, and strangers shall no longer pass through there.
And it shall come to pass on that day that the mountains shall drip with wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the springs of Judah shall flow with water, and a spring shall emanate from the house of the Lord and water the valley of Shittim.
And Egypt shall become desolate, and Edom shall be a desert waste, because of the violence done to the children of Judah, because they shed innocent blood in their land.
But Judah shall remain forever, and Jerusalem throughout all generations.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Amos 9:-14-15
And I will return the captivity of My people Israel, and they shall rebuild desolate cities and inhabit [them], and they shall plant vineyards and drink their wine, and they shall make gardens and eat their produce.
And I will plant them on their land, and they shall no longer be uprooted from upon their land, that I have given them, said the Lord your God.
@ Bernard Ross:
“Incline your ear and come to Me, hearken and your soul shall live, and I will make for you an everlasting covenant, the dependable mercies of David. Behold, a witness to nations have I appointed him, a ruler and a commander of nations. Behold, a nation you do not know you shall call, and a nation that did not know you shall run to you, for the sake of the Lord your God and for the Holy One of Israel, for He glorified you.
Seek the Lord when He is found, call Him when He is near. “For My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways,” says the Lord. “As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways and My thoughts [higher] than your thoughts.”
The Community of Israel accepted an obligation to enforce the SAME Law on all members of the Community!
The Torah was given to the whole of Israel as a group and they were commanded to be mutually responsible for each other in keeping it.
A messianic verse: “I will place My law in their midst and I will inscribe it upon their hearts, and I will be their God and they shall be My people.” “And no longer shall one teach his neighbor or [shall] one [teach] his brother, saying, “Know the Lord,” for they shall all know Me from their smallest to their greatest, says the Lord, for I will forgive their iniquity and their sin I will no longer remember”. Jer 31:32-33
This elucidates the Jewish mission (purpose} if you will: “A KINGDOM OF PRIESTS, AND AN HOLY NATION” [Exodus 19:6]. A light to the Nations!! Isaih What we need to know is what has been revealed to us in the through the Torah. That is the sum of it all.
The Ten Tribes were Exiled for Inventing their own Religious Beliefs!
It says: Isa. 8:20: “To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
@ Bernard Ross:
Where does it say such a thing? Judaism is not predicated on the concept of The Messiah. The Torah never mentions a Messiah. They are as ignorant of Torah as most non religious Jews, they never study Torah they study Talmud. The attributes of The Messiah are described in the prophets but never directly mentioned. They speak of a Messianic age not the Messiah.
@ Vinnie:
See: https://www.israpundit.org/archives/51733/comment-page-1#comment-246462
Yes it means exactly that, how by what means and when is another matter. The Jewish people was chosen to be the vessel whereby G-d manifests himself. The Jewish people are G-d’s chosen people and the Land of Israel is the Land G-d chose for the Jewish people. A chosen People and a Chosen Land In Judaism the people and the land are inseparable. Judaism rests on 3 legs the nation of Israel the Land of Israel and the Torah.
The G-d of the Jews is the G-d of history and that’s how he manifests himself. History is manipulated to serve his purpose and we are the actors from central casting in the divine plan. The choice of the geographic Israel insured that we would always be histories central and lead actor on the world stage. Interesting that Jews have used every argument to justify our existence except one…The Bible. Yet even Balfour cites the Bible and our historic connection to the land. Jews cite Balfour but not the basis that it was given to the Jews. I want to see a Christian or Muslim debate on te merits our claim based on the Bible. I maintain they couldn’t without undermining their own theological roots.
The problem is with the Jews who don’t know or believe in their own book. Pisses me off that I see Christians and even some Muslims on this site more knowledgeable of the Tanach and Jewish scriptures better than Jews.
If you are adverse to using the Torah as an argument with Muslims then use the Koran: In particular those verses of the Koran which contain high praise for the Jewish people, such as:
“Children of Israel, remember My Favor which I have bestowed upon you, and that I exalted you above the nations.” — Koran, Sura 2 “The Cow” at 122; and
“Bear in mind the words of Moses to his people. He said: ‘Remember, my people, the favor which Allah has bestowed upon you. He has raised up prophets among you, made you into kings, and given to you that which He has given to no other nation. Enter, my people, the Holy Land which Allah has assigned for you. Do not turn back, or you shall be ruined.'” — Koran, Sura 5 “The Dinner Table” at 20-21; and
“Thereafter We said to the Children of Israel: ‘Dwell securely in the Promised Land, and when the Promise of the Hereafter is near fulfillment, We shall gather you all together.'” — Koran, Sura 17 “The Children of Israel” at 104;
yamit82 Said:
this makes sense to me(but what do I know)Would G_D give so many blessings in the midst of such danger if he were agianst it?. But the “true torahs” say the instruction not to return prematurely is clear in the torah.
yamit82 Said:
I dont understand this in the context.
Contrast the deeds of the Likud. Unless I am mistaken, a Likud-led government was the first to negotiate with Arab terrorists who claim the Land of Israel as theirs. It was the “Zionist” or “nationalist” Likud Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir that tacitly recognized the PLO at the Madrid Conference in October 1991. It was this tough-minded “Zionist” that initiated the practice of releasing Arab terrorists for captured Israeli soldiers. Many of these terrorists went on to murder more Jews.
It was fork-tongued Likud Prime Minister Netanyahu—a reputed expert on terrorism—that yielded much of Judea and Samaria, including much of Hebron, to Yasser Arafat, the godfather of international terrorism.
It was the “right-wing” Likud Prime Minister Ariel Sharon that adopted the left-wing’s policy of “unilateral disengagement”— a policy rejected by no less than 70 percent of the public in the 2003 election. It was Sharon’s “Zionist-led” government that expelled 8,000 Jews from their homes in Gaza—and Israel’s ensuing retreat from Gaza continues to threaten the nation.
It was a faithless or Janus-faced Likud leader who, earlier this year, adopted Labor’s long-range goal of establishing a PLO state in Judea and Samaria. If this is not tantamount to treason—and I invite readers to consult sections 97(a), 97(b), 99, and 100 of the penal code—then the Knesset may as well rescind these sections of the law, as Israel’s anti-Zionist Supreme Court tacitly did to “legitimize” the Sharon-Netanyahu post-Zionist policy.
Given this brief survey of the Likud’s betrayal of the nation—of which betrayal I could write a volume—one wonders how any honest and self-respecting Jew, let alone a religious Jew, can join or remain a member of this party.
@ Bernard Ross:
My Hatikva–
G-d liberated the Jews from 250 years of terrible bondage had them wander around in the desert for 40 years, punished the Hebrews for being too scared to enter the land and conquer and settle it, then said go wherever you want. Lets say the promised land was a gift from G-d to the whole Jewish people and the Jews tell G-d no thanks I prefer Williamsburg or Miami Beach etc.? That would be the same as spitting in the face of G-d even rejecting G-d. http://www.geocities.ws/nkmpa/religiousjew.html
Curse or Blessing? by Gary M. Cooperberg
“When the Children of Israel went into exile the Land of Israel was “cursed”. It became a barren land in which nothing could grow. No nation could be established here because of this. Yet, when the Jews began to come home the land, once again, became fertile and began to yield her fruits. Just as the Children of Israel were faithful to the Land, the Land was faithful to the Jewish People. So, what appeared to be a curse, was, in fact, a Blessing! And when the Seer, Balaam, tried to curse Israel, all of his curses were transformed into blessings. One of those “curses” was that Israel is “a nation that stands alone, not to be reckoned among the nations of the world.” Yet it was this “curse” which enabled us to maintain our identity during our Exile. And it is this “curse” today which prevents us from losing our country to a bogus “peace” process.
If the Arabs were not so honest about their intentions. If they behaved like nice people my government would probably have given them our country without a fight. . . for peace. But the Arabs will not relent. They smell weakness and are coming in for the kill. This is their mistake. Our leadership may, indeed, be telegraphing weakness. But the people of Israel is stronger than ever. And, what is more to the point, our G-d is intervening to fulfill His purpose to make us into a light unto the nations. . . even if we don’t like it.
Yes Iran is planning to bomb Israel. Yes the Arabs in Israel are planning an uprising to destroy us from within. Yes the nations of the world are all aligning against us. With all this there is logically no hope for us to survive! Yet, in fact we can see that all of this is merely setting the stage for the greatest miracle of all time. What better proof of G-d’s existence than to have the entire world gang up against her and fall prey to Divine Wrath? This is the ancient plan and the fact that we can begin to see it coming to pass should encourage us. Yes indeed, this incredible curse will soon become a most incredible blessing!
Rabbi Abba explained that the ultimate sign of the coming of the Moshiach is found in the verse: “But you, O mountains of Israel, shall shoot forth your branches and yield your fruit for My people” (Ezekiel 36:8). “When the land of Israel becomes fertile again and produces fruit in abundance, then salvation is surely near at hand.” Rashi: “Indeed, there cannot be a clearer sign than this.” Talmud Sanhedrin 98a
“For on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be those that shall escape.”
Yoel 3:5 and Ovadia 1:17.
Honey Bee:
The History of Christmas@
@ Honey Bee:
Honey Bee Said:
I like my White fish smoked not air dried.
Check out these two links
@ Honey Bee:
Honey Bee Said:
I like my White fish smoked not air dried.
Check out these two links
The History of Christmas
“The Jews in Israel will pay a terrible price for turning their backs on God…”
What Jews are you talking about? All Jews? Have all the Jews of Israel, everyone of them, turned their back on G-D? And whose god are you talking about? Theirs or yours?
@ yamit82:
No Happy Winter Soltice for me,your Honey Bee. What am I,lutefisk.
@ rongrand:
Happy Christmas Ron
“as white Americans”??? What about black Americans and black Jews? Forgive me curiosity.
@ larry lunchpail:
I shall start with you!!!!!!!!!
Israelis should have the same RIGHTS as Americans.We have the right to own and use AR 15’s, so that we might be able to shoot at anything that moves,breathes and has life. It is our God given privilege as white Americans to exercise our constitutional prerogatives. That privilege is never ending.
@ Bernard Ross:
Great Day at the Flea Market. Cowboy hint of the day, shallow off shore drilling Hercules
the phoenix Said:
It is all confusing because I see two opposite orthodox views: one says to be a true Jew you must make aliyah and the other says that to be a true Jew you must not make aliyah. Which does the Torah state and which Rabbinic interpretation is true? I am reminded of the Tower of Babel and I ask why G_d would allow such confusion over something of such importance. There are 2 statements which I ponder(approx): “..we cannot know G_d’s ways and thoughts as G_d’s ways and thoughts are greater than ours..” and “..After that time I will put the Law into their inward parts and write it into their hearts,…. everyone will know G_d”.
@ the phoenix:
” Avarage Joes” in Texas admire Israel, the more she spits in Obama’s eye, the more she rockets Hamas. They her sprit and toughnes.
Bernard Ross Said:
in COMPLETE AGREEMENT mr ross.
it is THIS imbecillic narrowmindedness that i am afraid will do us in.
a while back there was a comment posted here that said (verbatim) “If a “Zionist” has no kippah and no beard, he is worthless.”
…
way, way back, my late father related how as a ‘oleh hadash’ he went to a synagogue to say kadish for his father shortly after arrival to israel. he did not grow up in a religious household, did not know how to put on tfillin, but he would pray to god from his heart, and knew that he was a jew.
to make a long story short, he was practically kicked out of the (sepharadi) synagogue since he was ‘different’ (ashkenazi)…
…
it just makes my blood boil.
who is to judge the ‘worthiness’ of another jew, religious or not, if his/her heart are in the right place (pride of judaism, and unconditional love of israel [the land])?
@ Vinnie: I think you raise some good questions. If I may I would like to add to your list of Israel’s errors further to
Vinnie Said:
1-allowing PLO to return to Israel under Oslo
2- Failure to deport PLO, fatah, when Oslo ended citing that their return was based in Oslo and with Oslo dead they remain illegally.
Vinnie Said:
I agree, especially since there are “torah true”, ultra orthodox, Jews in black hats and peyas who roam the world assisting the muslims to kill the Jews by declaring that the Jews are non Jews and are violating the word of the Torah by returning to Israel in defiance and rebellion to G_d’s commandments not to return until the Messiah comes.
I do not agree about China, I think they are too pragmatic to fall in line. From their point of views the Jews will have no allies and any crumb they give will keep the jews with them AND they can keep the resource rich arabs.
@ Vinnie:
excellent post!
Israel occupies 1/1000 of the land volume in the Middle East! 83% of the land is useless for any number of reasons.
Israel has a population of 7-8 million people of which 1-2 million is the hate tape worms called Arabs.
The goals is not land it’s the complete butchering of the entire population once and for all.However the the Arabs forget what the Lord’s written word says that was written over 2,000 years ago.
The Jews in Israel will pay a terrible price for turning their backs on God,however the nation will survive due to the Lord’s blessings!
God bless!
@ yamit82:
I’m not going to argue against your quotes from scripture.
But I’m not the audience you have to convince.
I would, however, raise a few questions for you, and other readers here.
Does this mean that the Jews get the land of Israel no matter what? If Israel annexes J&S, and all hell breaks loose, can we count on divine intervention on our behalf? It does seem to me that the implied message in quoting scripture is that divine intervention is part of your equation.
These texts are thousands of years old. As a Jew, of course I agree that G-d intends these lands for us. But insofar as we have free will, we have the opportunity to fail, to screw things up. If G-d is going to swoop in and rescue us no matter what we do, then free will would be meaningless.
Is there some date by which are to have these lands? I didn’t see that in the quotes, but I’m not a Bible scholar, so maybe you can clarify.
I suspect there is no fixed date. It seems to me that we get these lands when we live and act in such a way that we earn them in the eyes of G-d. We’ve lost them before, and we can lose them again.
Divine intervention would be great, but I look at the last 100 years, and I’m not seeing a lot of evidence for this as something we can count on. Where was G-d in 1942 when 30,000 of us were being murdered literally every day?? Sure, the Germans lost the war, but their total losses – military and civilian – were only two thirds of what they did to us, let alone what they did to so many others. Now, they are among the world’s most prosperous and secure countries. Whatever happened to ‘he who blesses Israel shall be blessed, he who curses Israel shall be cursed’? Seems the Germans got off pretty easy.
It doesn’t stop there. Can we look forward to some big earthquake that is going to take care of Iran’s nuke sites? Why does Saudi Arabia suffer no catastrophes? Seems they curse Israel more than anyone, and they are doing OK so far as I can tell, bribing everybody left, right, and center to hate us, with impunity.
Collectively, we’ve made a lot of mistakes over the years, both in Israel and the Diaspora. A few that come to mind:
– failing to destroy the Al Aqsa mosque in ’67
– allowing Arafat and his PLO to escape Lebanon to Tunisia
– signing the Oslo Accords
– unilaterally withdrawing from Gaza
– failing to declare Oslo dead – and taking appropriate unilateral actions – the minute Abbas stepped up to the podium at the UN back in September of 2011
I’m sure you can come up with many more.
Then, there is the behavior of the Diaspora, particularly here in the U.S. There are many grounds for criticism here, but of course the most glaring example is their overwhelming support for Obama. To me, any Jew that supports Obama, that is an affront to G-d. It is not that we got him elected; one can make only a very tentative case for that – based on financial support – the first time around, and no case for that the second time around. But the real damage was the signal that sent to potential or actual Gentile supporters of Israel: as one Tea Party activist put it to me, “I’ll start worrying about Israel when the Jews stop supporting Obama.” Why should any Gentile American feel obligated to take any risks to support Israel, if the Jews themselves gleefully vote for her nemesis? (I’d add here that the Tea Party overwhelmingly supports Israel- think Glenn Beck – but they are equally incredulous that Jews support Obama, and some to the point of irritated hostility.)
How many chances do we get? How many times will we be forgiven?
At some point, does G-d conclude that maybe, despite His help, we really weren’t ready to be restored to our home just yet, and that we’ll have to lose it again and wander around for another 2000 years before we get another chance?
I don’t mean to say in some definitive way that we are “doomed”. I am saying things are in flux. We’ve done some things right and had some amazing accomplishments, but we’ve also made a lot of terrible mistakes, we have dug ourselves into a hole, and it is going to be tough to get out of that hole. The forces arrayed against us are strong in many ways and they could very well defeat us. Even if we prevail, we may have already incurred costs that we are not going to recover any time soon.
Bad choices made yesterday mean more limited options today. Bad choices today mean even more limited options tomorrow. Israel and those who support her are being faced with options that are less and less appealing, in significant part due to our own mistakes as a people.
So, I return to my suggestions posted earlier concerning China as a possible major power ally replacement for the U.S.
ANY small, besieged country in a situation such as Israel’s – no matter how powerful or advanced – is going to need a major power ally in their corner. Those are the geopolitical facts of life. That major ally for Israel SHOULD be the U.S. for many reasons, but the U.S. is going down the tubes as a serious power in general and as an ally for Israel in particular. With Obama’s reelection, it is hard for me to see from here how this state of affairs is reversed.
China in this role poses many risks. But there is at least potential there that needs to be explored.
Yamit, you go quoting the Bible to them, and you will get nowhere. This just does not register with them. That is for US, not THEM. You think Israel doesn’t need a major power ally, you think that quotes from the Bible make a sufficient basis for policy, well, that might go over well on forums like these, but I would sure like to see you run for office in Israel on that platform, and see how far you get. Better still, I’d like to see you in the Foreign Ministry, trying to explain to the Chinese Ambassador why he should convince his superiors to change China’s vote on the UNSC at a critical moment, using quotes from the Bible. It won’t work. Something like the Levy Report, that MIGHT work.
Michael Devolin Said:
I have noticed recently that the most vicious anti Israel articles on aljazeera come from Israeli leftists.
“these neturei karta et al are being used by all garden variety antisemites around the world as ‘star wittness’ in their relentless attacks on israel.”
So very true.
yamit82 Said:
well, whiskey, tango foxtrot!
these neturei karta et al are being used by all garden variety antisemites around the world as ‘star wittness’ in their relentless attacks on israel.
this is especially being used by msm who conveniently portray them as ‘jewish groups also in disagreement with the state of israel and its policies…another way of saying ‘see? we are not the only ones to disagree…these ultra-jews do the same…
to the average joe-six-pack that is just watching the evening news clips, it just brands a certain image in his mind about jews and israel.
that image is not pretty and is negative.
@ Honey Bee:
😛
🙁
@ Bernard Ross:
The Agudath Yisrael and Neturei Karta objected to Zionist aims of founding a state before the coming of the Messiah. To bolster their opposition, they cite tractate Ketuboth, verse 111 of the Talmud, which is interpreted as forbidding strife with gentiles in order to form a Jewish state, on the grounds that the destruction of the temple is a punishment from G-d, which would be rescinded by G-d. They further rely on an apocryphal legend, according to which G-d, the Jewish People, and the gentile nations of the world made a pact when the Jews were sent into exile. Under the pact, Jews would not rebel against the non-Jewish world that gave them sanctuary and Jews would not immigrate as a group to the Land of Israel. In return, the gentile nations promised not to persecute the Jews too harshly. Neglecting the history of persecution of the Jews, which many say voided this pact, Neturei Karta argue that by rebelling against the pact, Jews were rebelling against G-d.
Besides the persecutions of the Jews the Nations did give their consent through the UN partition resolution and Israel only used force in self defense, so their objections should have been made void. They haven’t because the state, the founders and most of the population are not religious. Arabs and antisemites use them against us but their numbers are insignificantly small some 5-6000.
This attitude, despite the pretensions of the Neturei Karteh, probably has no basis in pre-Zionist Jewish exilic tradition, though the occasion of mass immigration of Jews to the land of Israel or concerted Jewish rebellion against gentiles did not arise very often. It was certainly not a tradition of Sephardic Jews, and opposition to settlement in Israel was not known before the rise of Zionism. Numerous groups of Jews, including Kabalists and other ultra-orthodox Jews, came to live in the land of Israel, and pious rabbis encouraged their followers to live there as well. With the rise of Zionism, most of the Orthodox world remained aloof from it or opposed it as impractical or dangerous. The injunction against rebellion was generally held by ultra-Orthodox Jews to be a caution against repeating the disastrous rebellion of Bar Kochba.
@ Vinnie:
Jeremy Gimpel & Ari Abramowitz Run For Knesset!
yamit82 Said:
What is the argument used by certain orthodox sects that say Torah forbids Jews to enter Israel until after the Moshiach comes, that G_d promised a severe punishment for those who do? They also blame zionists for the holocaust resulting from violating that admonition.
@ yamit82:
Nothing so concentrates the mind a the possiblity of an execution.
Still stuck with Cowboy, in Texas the brand their heifers.
@ Vinnie:
The basis for the GOI declaring Jewish Israeli rights to J&S, can only be:
“Now Israel, listen to the rules and laws that I am teaching you to do, so that you will remain alive and come to occupy the land that G-d, Lord of your fathers, is giving you.”
Dvarim (Deuteronomy) 4:1
“In the beginning G-d created heaven and earth.” Breshit (Genesis) 1:1
Rashi writes:
“Why does the Torah start with the creation, instead of the first commandment given to the Jewish People? Because if the nations of the world ever accuse the Jews of stealing the Land of Israel, the Jews will be able to respond to the nations of the world that the entire world belongs to G-d, He created it and He choose to give the Land of Israel to the Jewish People.”
“You are crossing the Jordan to come to the land which G-d is giving you, you must settle the land and live there…” Dvarim (Deuteronomy) 11:31
Let’s here your arguments against the above.
@ Honey Bee:
Smart guy : Samuel Johnson
“The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good”
“A second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience”
@ yamit82:
Who would have thunk it,darin your a”good ol’boy”,Texas style.
I remembered the quote.
The pleasure is fleeting, the positions are rediculous, and the cost is prohibative.
Well, there is that Levy Report, which could form the basis for the GOI declaring Jewish Israeli rights to J&S. Bibi commissioned that, and now he seems to be sitting on it.
Between the Levy Report and the PA’s open abrogation of Oslo via their trips to the UN, it would seem that Israeli leadership has the basic political tools they need to take a firm stand…if they have the guts to do so.
Recent polls we’ve all seen of late indicate that the people will back such a leader.
The big problem, of course, is the relationship with the U.S. under Obama.
Israel is going to have to risk that relationship. Being tethered to the U.S. on her present trajectory, this likely means slow suicide for Israel.
Anyone suppose China still wants those radar planes?
I’d bet that to get Israeli military technology, the Chinese might make some very interesting changes in their public stances towards Israel in places like the UN and elsewhere. At least they aren’t anti-Semites – far from it – and I don’t think the Arab lobby is nearly as strong there as it is now in the U.S.
The Chinese believe that Israel still has the U.S. in her corner, but we can all see here that this concept is becoming a sad joke.
From what I’ve read about Chinese-Israeli relations, it also seems to me that the Chinese are generally very ignorant about the Middle East, that Israelis have not made a serious effort yet to submit their “side of the story” vis-a-vis the Palestinians to Chinese leaders, and that if such an effort were made, the Chinese just might take it seriously.
It’s worth a try. The U.S. needs to be put on notice that Israel will not be taken for granted, and will not put herself at risk so that the U.S. can appease Moslem sensibilities. Israel, at some point, is going to have to behave and act on the assumption that the U.S.-Israeli “alliance” – whatever that has been worth in recent years – is coming to an end, and that it is up to the U.S. to save it if they want to.
Right now, the U.S. under Obama is in the process of trading in her ally Israel – the technological, economic, and military diamond of the region – for allies that amount to the piles of camel dung that surround her. Maybe U.S. leaders think they can have it both ways; they need to be disabused of this notion.
If the U.S. under Obama is so stupid as to persist in such idiotic policies, there is no choice for Israel.
I don’t think Chinese leaders are that stupid.
@ Honey Bee:
Well, that’s it then.
The Look!!!!
Israel is being dumped by the USA, the love affair is over, Obama is not “in to Israel”. WAKE UP. ITS OVER
One should read Dennis Ross’s book on the Camp David accords. It would not take long to realize that Ross dos not have Israeli or even Jewish interests at heart. it is all a “game” with him. Machiavellian diplomacy is his life’s blood. He hates Bibi and his heart is in Labour’s camp. During the accords his main interest was how to sabotage Bibi and Likud. Anything he says should be taken with a large grain of salt and right now is merely Obama’s stooge.
Oh my, there goes that annoying “Your comment is awaiting moderation”
@ yamit82:
@ NormanF:
@ Bernard Ross:
@ C.R.:
I’ll say one thing for sure, you guys are pretty much on the same page.
Israelis need to understand and remember why they have returned to the Holy Land and by Whom (G-d)
And for those who disagree, tell them to go pound sand.
Simply put–Israel is tethered to the failed peace process[which never was a peace process–but rather the process of destroying Israel and Jewish presence on the land]because they have in large measure abandoned God’s principles outlined in the Tanakh!
NormanF Said:
Very well put.
Has any ruling GOI stated that YS is the homeland of the Jewish people(regardless of whether or not Israel can get it)? If this is not given any importance by Israel then the world will expect that Israel will accept international guarantees of security in return for Jewish land. If Israel balks they will be shocked because Israel has only mentioned security before. In fact this is how the world is right now reacting to E1, and why wouldn’t they? According to Israel there is no such thing as jewish rights in YS!
yamit82 Said:
Let’s be clear – the “two state solution” means Hamas gets to use Judea and Samaria and Gaza as a launching pad to wipe out Israel. The peace processors in Israel are not honest and they’re not telling Israeli voters this is exactly what an Arab state will entail. And if you talk only in the language of security, you don’t have any real staying power. The Arabs talk the language of rights and that’s why the world is with them. The world will always back the side with the just cause. Israeli leaders talk in instrumental, not in ideological terms. That is why they are losing the war. They have no idea how to really defeat the Arabs on the political battlefield by championing Israeli sovereignty over Judea and Samaria because the entire Land belongs to the Jewish people. Israel looks to the world like a colonial power holding onto unjustified and ill-gotten gains. And the security rationale is dismissed because it looks like a justification for Israeli land robbery rather being than a statement of Jewish rights. Without asserting Jewish rights, Israel has no chance to withstand international pressure to relinquish what is rightfully its homeland.
Israel is trapped in the Oslo process because the Israeli Right has not offered an alternative solution and also due to fear of the world will say, etc.
At the end of the day, this process will culminate in Hamas taking over Judea and Samaria as well as Gaza. The only way to forestall this process is to strengthen parties to the Likud’s right so an alternative gets a chance.
Otherwise, a repeat of the Gaza folly could well become a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Ted if you are allowed to ask question at these forums why don’t you ask the speakers and panelists to define their terms of reference like security.
In a sea of over 300 million Israel hating Arabs and being the target of tens of thousands of missiles and rockets, I can’t imagine what is meant by security by our Leaders and pundits.
Security like the term Peace are deliberately amorphous concepts and unless the users put meat on the bone and define what they mean we can’t really understand what they want.
I don’t know what our leaders mean when they demand security or what they mean when they speak about Peace. I think if they defined what they really mean, the people would vote with their feet.