Office The right of return of the Palestinians is an integral part of UN Resolution 194… The moral and political injustice of dispossessing the Palestinians in the past shall not be remedied by creating new injustices.
– Avraham Burg, “Say a big ‘thank you’ to Martin Schulz,” Haaretz, February 14, 2014
Liberation from Zionism is not a dirty word…. what lies behind Zionism nowadays are interests related to water, real estate… and a huge army hungering to justify its existence… We have to get rid of Zionism…
– Yitzhak Laor, “Get rid of Zionism,” Haaretz, June 3, 2011
We enthusiastically chose to become a colonial society… engaging in theft and finding justification for all these activities…
– Michael Ben-Yair , “The war’s seventh day,” Haaretz, March 3, 2002
For readers less familiar with the lesser- known protagonists in today’s Israeli socio-political milieu:
Avraham Burg was the speaker of Israel’s parliament, and chairman of the Jewish Agency, son of Yosef Burg, iconic leader of the right-wing National Religious Party that evolved into what is now Bayit Yehudi, headed by Economy Minister Naftali Bennett. Avraham Burg’s mother, Rifka Slonim, daughter of Jacob Joseph Slonim, Ashkenazi rabbi of Hebron, was a survivor of the 1929 Arab massacre of Jews in the city;
Yitzhak Laor is a well-known Israeli poet, author, and journalist, and lectured in the department of literature, Tel Aviv University;
Michael Ben-Yair was attorney-general under the governments of Yitzhak Rabin and Shimon Peres. In a 2013 Facebook post, Ben-Yair labeled construction of Jewish communities across the pre-1967 lines “the most evil and immoral act since the Second World War,” deeming them worse than the atrocities of the Pol Pot regime in Cambodia, the purges during Stalin’s reign of terror and the gory genocide in Darfur.
Bad week for Jewish sovereignty:
The last week or so has been a very bad time for the sustainability of Jewish political independence. It has been even a worse time for intellectual integrity in Israeli politics and a really atrocious time for Jewish solidarity.
Somewhat paradoxically, things got off to a not so bad start last Wednesday, when European Parliament President Martin Schulz gave what was, overall, a rather positive address to a plenary Knesset session that was far more laudatory toward Israel than critical. He was even unequivocally emphatic that “the EU has no intention to boycott Israel.”
But things went seriously awry when Schulz foolishly insinuated that Israel was depriving Palestinians of water, citing wildly inaccurate figures, which he admitted were uncorroborated, and which he had heard in a passing conversation with a Palestinian youth. This incident prompted an irate walkout of the Bayit Yehudi faction.
Of course the “water libel” against Israel is nothing new. Totally unfounded – indeed, outlandish – accusations that it is denying the Palestinians access to adequate water supplies have been leveled against it for years. But in the case of the furor over Schulz’s remarks two points should be made.
Water: The new blood libel?
The first is that it was of course discourteous and injudicious to makes such serious allegations in such a public manner, when the most cursory inquiry, made discreetly to the proper authorities, would have quickly dispelled his misconceptions and avoided the unfortunate and unnecessary brouhaha. But then, perhaps even in the mind of the relatively amicable Schulz, Israel must be assumed guilty of something… In this regard PM Netanyahu’s response was apt and accurate: “Schulz admitted that he didn’t check if what he said was true, but he still blamed us. People accept any attack on Israel without checking it.”
This brings me to the second point.
The very fact that such a senior foreign politician is still laboring under such grave misapprehensions is a devastating indictment of Israeli public diplomacy.
For in the case of water, all the facts are crystal clear, and overwhelmingly exonerate Israel of any allegations of discriminatory deprivation toward the Palestinians.
Accordingly, the very fact that anyone can still raise such absurd charges, however obliquely, without being subjected to withering ridicule, reflects an inexcusable failure of Israel’s diplomatic apparatus to discharge its functions.
Grotesque and perverse:
Of course not all Israelis were put out by Schulz’s ill-considered rashness. Avraham Burg (see above) for example thought he deserved a “big thank you.” Burg, who achieved his public stature representing the Jewish state and the Zionist ideal, has devoted his recent efforts to annulling them – although he apparently has no qualms about continuing to receive generous pensions/benefits from its tainted coffers, which to the best of my knowledge he has yet to decline.
In a grotesquely perverse piece in Haaretz (where else?) he seizes on Schulz’s misinformed allusion, to reenforce the worst anti-Israel (and anti-Jewish) connotation that could be attributed to it.
In his toxic tirade, in which Burg hurls highly disrespectful personal insults at Netanyahu, he declares “We ought to be grateful to President Schulz. Perhaps the disparity in access to natural resources isn’t precisely what he was told in Ramallah… But let’s get back to the principle.
The current Israeli government, headed by that man of “moral confusion” [Netanyahu], accepts the premise that the Jews deserve more.”
Taking his father’s name in vain:
I shall deal with the repudiation of the outrageous Judeophobic slur a little later.
It will suffice here to point out that, although Burg generally commends Schulz’s implied censure of Israel, he feels that the attitude of the European Parliament president to the Jewish state was far too benign, stating “On most issues connected to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict we disagree. He is closer to the Israeli mainstream, and his positions resemble those of [the very dovish] Labor Party chairman Isaac Herzog.”
Burg, who basically now advocates the abolition of Israel as the nation-state of the Jewish people and its conversion into a multi-ethnic state-of-all-its citizens, goes on to take his strongly pro-Zionist father’s name in vain: “If my father, one of the founders of the party that later became Bayit Yehudi, were alive to see his political descend[a]nts in the Knesset on Wednesday I have no doubt… that he would… turn over in his grave.”
Sadly, I am old enough to be able to remember the ideo-political predilections of Burg senior, who retired from politics in 1986, after heading the National Religious Party for almost 10 years. I would give heavy odds that what is making his father, who escaped Nazi Germany at the last moment, “turn in his grave” is not the conduct of Bayit Heyudi, but his son’s descent into the depths of political prostitution (I make no apologies for the term), and the latter’s betrayal of all the Zionist ideals he cherished.
Shame on Susan:
But Burg junior was not the only one to use the issue of the “water libel,” raised (inadvertently or otherwise) by Schulz’s address, and provide grist for the mills of the myriad Judeophobes, eager to pounce on any opportunity, however flimsy, to denigrate the Jewish state, and to undermine its security and existence.
Earlier this week, Susan Hattis Rolef published a column in The Jerusalem Post titled “Water in the West Bank and the blockade on Gaza.” The piece was so misleading and misinformed that it is difficult to keep criticism of it within the confines of collegial courtesy.
There are so many inaccuracies, distortions and outright errors in her article that it would require more than an entire column to deal with them exhaustively. I will thus confine myself to the most glaring.
Hattis Rolef contends, “There are no official figures regarding the average water consumption of the Jewish inhabitants in the territories,” hinting that this alleged dearth is indicative of some dark conspiracy, and prejudicially states: “but it is assumed to be much higher (some say even double) the figure for Israelis within the Green Line.”
She is hopelessly wrong on all counts and seems to indicate that she did not invest a modicum of effort in researching the topic before publishing her diatribe.
A brief telephone call to Israel Water Authority would have provided her with all the information (and more) that she could have wished for. The authority is more than eager to oblige, as virtually all the data are highly supportive of Israel’s positions.
Susan (cont.):
For example, she would have discovered that the roughly 380,000 “Jewish inhabitants in the territories” (excluding greater Jerusalem) consume on average considerably less than the roughly 8 million “Israelis within the Green Line.” While the former consume a total of 50 million cubic meters of fresh water annually (and approximately 70 m.cu.m. including degraded waste water for orchard irrigation), the latter consume almost 1,200 m.cu.m. of freshwater (and 1,900 m.cu.m. including other waste/brackish water).
Thus, the average per capita fresh water consumption of “Jewish inhabitants in the territories” is just over 130 cu.m. annually, and of total water, under 185 cu.m., while for “Israelis within the Green Line” the corresponding figures are 150 cu.m. and almost 240 cu.m., respectively.
Hattis Rolef claims that, although there “is formal cooperation between the water authorities of Israel and the Palestinian Authority… the balance of power is like that between a mule and its rider.”
Ah, won’t the anti-Israel Judeophobes love that imagery! In fact, if she had bothered to read the Oslo II Accords (Article 40), which deals with Water and Sewage, she would discover that there is a Joint Water Committee that is charged with administering all water-sewage related matters. According to Article 40, “The JWC shall be comprised of an equal number of representatives from each side” and “All decisions of the JWC shall be reached by consensus…” This clearly gives the Palestinians veto power over the decision-making process, which is the major reason for the delays in construction of purification plants for waste water, which continues to flow and pollute Israeli downstream sources.
So much for the mule-rider analogy! She complains, “Israel actively destroys Palestinian wells and reservoirs because they are allegedly ‘illegal,’” adding snidely, “which is what much of the international community says about… what Israel has done in the West Bank since 1967, and… ‘he who lives in a glass house shouldn’t throw stones…’” So is Hattis Rolef seriously suggesting that Israel permit unregulated and unrestricted extraction from the aquifer and allow depletion to reach the catastrophic proportions now existing in Gaza, following Israel relinquishing control there? How precisely would that improve the lot of the Palestinians water-wise?
Vindictive malevolence vs inept impotence:
There is so much more to respond with, like for instance that Israel conveys more water from inside the pre-1967 lines into Judea-Samaria (67 m.cu.m.) than the entire consumption of the much maligned “settlers” (50 m.cu.m.), thus more than compensating the Palestinians for the entire Jewish water usage across the Green Line; or like, according to the Oslo Accords it is the PA, not Israel, that is responsible for supplying the Palestinian consumer with water, and virtually all stoppages/ shortages are due to unpaid bills, faulty infrastructure and theft on the part of the Palestinians; or that differentials in consumption reflect differences in demand and lifestyles rather than differences in supply and discriminatory deprivation.
But there is only so much one can cram into a single opinion column. I am forced to forgo mention of the other perfidious “pearls-of-wisdom” from other leading left-wing activists and representatives, on other topical issues.
However, the fact that the water issue continues to remains a topic that can still be used to denigrate Israel, without the malefactor being scorned and shamed, bears lamentable testimony to the vindictive, borderline treasonous malevolence of the Left, which makes cynical use of it to further its political credo; and to the inept, borderline imbecilic, impotence of the Right, which has failed to totally discredit this practice.
This lethal combination is emerging as, arguably, the gravest threat to the sustainability of Jewish political independence.
Martin Sherman (www.martinsherman.net) is the founder and executive director of the Israel Institute for Strategic Studies. (www.strategicisrael.org)
honeybee Said:
You are sadistic!!!!
bernard ross Said:
There are other hypothetical possibilities like a major earthquke destroying everything on the mount. Happened before and what you see are the mostly rebuilt structures. Then there could be some fanatics blowing them up or through another war where they are destroyed ostensibly accident of war or collateral damage.
Got to keep an open mind things don’t usually happen according to rational logical thinking.
Read: David Ben-Ariel refutes false accusations on Israpundit David Hoover (AKA David BenAriel) died a few years ago from aids. There have been other crazies Jewish and christain who have attempted it in the past might be successful in the future.
Strict separation from the gentiles and their culture. More than not Ghettoization was the Jews choice. Jews were semi-autonomous, had their own laws, courts and administrative control as long as they paid the taxes imposed on them. They had more freedom to practice Judaism than do Americans today.
Jews always followed the ascendent empires of the past. Babylonia, Persia, Egypt,Rome, Spain, Germany, France and Britain and north America. Israel!!! Pendulum swings East then West and back to East.
Until some 250 years ago a Jew could be orthodox or Orthodox or Orthodox there was no diversity or pluralism. Some differences in local customs but not in world view. There were Jewish disputes within a Jewish framework but there was never a Jewish identity crisis. The Jew always knew who he was. In some ways the Jews had it no so bad, they had a myriad of restrictions but never served in local national armies or fought in Europe’s incessant wars. For most Jews the ghetto was like a protective womb from a Jewish point of view. There was hardly any assimilation.
Antisemitism ensured Jewish unity.
Lastly, universal Jewish education of Tanach and Talmud.
Combined they all contributed to Jewish survival.
Note: After the pogroms in Russia and Ukraine from the late 1800’s to 1926 some 4 million Jews fled Eastern Europe mostly to America. If they hadn’t most would have perished in the Holocaust. As bad as the conditions were for the Jews in Russia/Ukraine etc. As terrible as were the Pogroms they forced the Jews to leave which saved the majority some years later. Jewish history should be viewed as a continuum not in isolation. Our sages said the past is our guidepost to our future.
Salubrius Said:
Your interesting fact demonstrates once more that there is really no debate; just a conspiracy to swindle the Jews. They are unlikely to be “errors” and more likely to be intentional lies.
Many or most people around the world are taken in by the UN pronouncement that the Jews are illegally , under International Law, occupying Judea, Samaria and East Jerusalem. Most also believe that the basis for Israel’s sovereignty is Resolution 181, the 1947 Partition Resolution. Most people don’t know that the UN opinion relies on two claimed legal authorities, Henry Cattan and W.T. Mallison. These are the only legal authorities cited in Origins and Evolution of the Palestine Problem, Part I, 1917 to 1947 a report of the UN Committee on the Exercise of the Inalienable Rights of the Palestine People. Cattan is an Arab lawyer who was a member of the infamous Arab Higher Committee led by Haj Amin al Huseini, a friend of Adolph Hitler. He told the Germans that all he wanted in return for his help was permission to liquidate all the Jews in Palestine when the Germans prevailed in WWII. Cattan also represented the Arabs in the UNSCOP hearings in 1947 that led up to UN Resolution 181. W.T. Mallisonk the author of a legal opinion to the same effect was a good friend of Cattan and wrote the foreword to his Book, the Palestine Problem. Julius Stone, an acclaimed Australian International Lawyer was so outraged by the distortions of International Law, that he wrote in response, Israel Palestine: Assault on the Law of Nations. Read it. He exposes all the Mallison’s and Cattan’s errors.
My own opinion is available at SSRN.com/abstract=2385304 Enter the link carefully or you will be told it can’t be found.
yamit82 Said:
yamit82 Said:
then why rebuild the Temple?
yamit82 Said:
this is true but the “major nationalist breakthrough” will be required first to make the decision to destroy the mosque and rebuild the temple. Where will that decision come from?
yamit82 Said:
this statement gave me pause to think. It struck me that Jewish continuity was the enduring miracle during the 2000 years that the Temple did NOT exist. what gave the Jews without the temple the miracle of “Jewish continuity, the connection with ancient roots…”?
@ the phoenix:
Also interesting the wolves realized that attacking the bears would cost some of their lives and gave up leaving the bears to continue on their way.
@ honeybee:
I had no way of knowing that hb… And I decided to ‘err’ on the safe side.
Animals, and their welfare is one of my passions.
Bon appétit!
🙂
@ honeybee:
What was really neat, the larger juvenal bear help his mother defend his siblings. Talking to you while waiting for a chicken pot pie to bake.
@ the phoenix:
DO YOU REALLY THINK I WOULD POST BABY BEARS BEING KILLED BY WOLVES AND MOUNTAIN LIONS
@ yamit82:
@ the phoenix:
Thanks for an interesting discussion
@ yamit82:
🙂
🙂 🙂 🙂
Now that we have established that…not to Chinese menu the issue…. But is it absolutely necessary to have the sacrifices ????
🙁 🙁 🙁
I am sure there could be a way to bypass this ritual or to substitute it with something symbolic. The equivalent of a Shabbat elevator if you will…
Awhile back, hb posted a wildlife video of a mama near and her cubs and was attacked by a pack of wolves.
I stopped watching it.
I found out later via a comment posted by bear Klein that actually they made it….
the phoenix Said:
Jewish Missionary??
What is Zionism? A Jewish Guide…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPPKMCU4oTY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9QQOAk7Gfs
@ the phoenix:
Concentrate on the Temple and all else will fall into place!!!!!
The Temple of our nation
“My sanctuary, the pride of your power” Ezekiel 24:21
The Temple: To rebuild or not to rebuild? The arguments pro are political; the arguments contra are religious.
The book of Leviticus details many doubtful rites for Temple observance. It was impossible for all Jews to gather in the Temple thrice annually for the major festivals: the journey was too long. Visiting the Temple to slaughter every animal was similarly impractical. Women recovering from childbirth or undergoing unusually strong menstruation could not undertake an arduous trip to the Temple to bring sacrifices. The priests could not slaughter thousands—theoretically even hundreds of thousands—of animals during festivals.
Josephus quotes Hecataeus on the original size of the Second Temple as 150 by 50 meters. A structure of that size could not accommodate more than a few thousand people during a festival. The shortage of space can be explained in many ways, most easily by people entering the Temple for a short time only and generally staying outside it, but the size clearly doesn’t provide for the movement of hundreds of thousands of worshipers with sacrificial animals. The Mishna, written within the living memory of the Second Temple, conjectures about the rites and Sanhedrin procedures rather than stating them matter-of-factly.
The major attribute of the Temple’s holiness, the Ark, was gone already from the Second Temple, making it largely devoid of sanctity. The Temple was repeatedly desecrated, the priests were as corrupt then as the rabbinical leaders are now, and it is overall difficult to expect the Divine Presence to descend into the Holy of Holies. I can’t imagine God being attracted to a golden menorah donated by the Ukrainian magnate Rabinovich. An element of holiness was lost. Or was it? The Bible depicts Jews as prone to paganism then as to atheism now, with ancient rulers as evil as Shimon Peres, and prophets as rare as decent rabbis today. The laws of the Torah retain their applicability precisely because modern people remain morally similar to their ancestors. Herod the Great, with his pagan views, hardly imagined the Temple as a divine abode, but invested huge efforts into embellishing it. The Diaspora Jews did not bring the Temple sacrifices, but duly remitted a half-shekel or more for the upkeep of the Temple.
The Temple is a political institution. It asserts the Jewish character of the state, limits the authority of secular rulers, and unifies the Jewish nation. It is not really significant for our purposes whether the Divine Presence would reveal itself to a modern high priest: it is enough that the high priest exists. Israel leans to the left because there is no visible right; most rabbis are no more religious than the average MK. The Temple, sacrifices, and hereditary priesthood will create enormous pressure for the right end of the Israeli political spectrum, fully offsetting the influence of Kadima, Peace Now, Avodah, and Histadrut. The Temple will stake the land for the Jews: it’s hard to talk about Arab civil rights while the smoke of sacrifices rises to heaven. The construction of the Temple will necessitate a major nationalist breakthrough: razing the Islamic structures on the Temple Mount. It’s hard to seek peace with Arabs by giving them Judea or the Golan Heights after you’ve just razed the Aqsa.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNnwZNwRbdk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pHXZyNNes0
@ yamit82:
Opps garbled that post I changed my mind in the middle of the sentence. Meant to say a response from a man that doesn’t involve a gunfight. Now what I will never understand is why women put up with such stupid rules. Even a burro won’t move when its been used to hard. I see the photos of women faces burnt to the bone, on Geller’s post and wonder why Muslim women don’t kill their men.
the phoenix Said:
Once again translation please!
@a yamit82:
AT last an intelligent response from a man that don’t end in honest admission. Do you watch the “Amazing Race”. They have a couple of Okie cowboys on the race,cute as a little bugs ear,you should hear them “who rah” each other. That’s how I learned to talk.
@ honeybee:
Dear honeybee,
Fwiw, most of what I would I would say would be a repetition of my earlier post to yamit (25)
I think, that the source of the discord is simply in the understanding of the word ‘religious’ and ‘haredi’…
The ‘religious/observant group, TO ME, are those that are observant, they fulfill all the ‘do’s and ‘don’t’s of the Torah, HAVE A GAINFUL OCCUPATION , and are zionists. They love the land, in a tangible way.
(Such an example for me, would be an old childhood friend, that became religious moved to a religious moshav 10 km from gaza. Two of his sons are officers in golani, an elite fighter unit. They dress like normal people, and the only ‘hint’ is they wear a knitted skullcap – kippah sroogah)
I also believe, that what you rightly perceive to be ‘an animus’ towards women…. In all likelihood, you are referring to these aberrants, the Haredim’.
I could easily come up with countless annecdotes that would point out to their sheer hypocrisy.
It is I believe an attempt to COVERUP for immoral behavior and thus to piously thump their chests with righteousness (…Frollo’s lustfull feelings towards Esmeralda, in the hunchback of notre dame, if you will)
honeybee Said:
honeybee Said:
I’ll go with all of the above. 🙁
@ the phoenix:
I asked several questions of the men on theis post including yourself,yet not response!!!!! Pour-quoi!!!!
@ yamit82:
…you mean Jewish division….
As the old tired joke about the Jewish castaway that builds two synagogues on the island. One for him to go and pray there, and one to never ever set foot there…
@ yamit82:
now the my beloved History Channel, am I allowed no heroes but yourself!!!!
blockquoteWOMAN
There is the question I would like answer by one of you erudite gentlemen, why the animus towards women by the religious? Is it our “goddess-like” ability to bring life into being? Is it our admit ably distracting qualities, or the fact we are fiercer and more intelligent?
bernard ross Said:
Women can’t put on a black hat etc. you ignore 50% of your fighting population. Give me a gun and a target!!!!! Yankee Boy
bernard ross Said:
Not very plausible and I don’t ever recall Josephus writing anything like that in the “Jewish Wars”. I think the whole production for the History Channel very flawed but I posted to lend some context to my point about Jewish unity. The Zealots and Sicari’im got out probably through tunnels and wound up at Massada.
We do know that the Zealots burned the food stores which could have allowed the Jews to hold out for possibly years was burned and destroyed by the Zealots to make the Peace camp and pro Roman factions commit to the fight out of no choice. Fight or die. Tens of thousands committed suicide at the end. The History of the first revolt pitted a small number of Jews against the might of the Romans most Jews stayed out of it and many even supported Rome for various reasons. The 3rd revolt Bar Kochba roused the vast majority of the remaining Jews in the Land and they were much more successful. They may have lost but did gain the respect of the Romans and except for Jerusalem Ban were given a lot of privileges by the Romans and even praised in the Talmud. My opinion is it’s better to fight and lose than to not fight and still lose. How your enemies view you is decisive. A case can be made that by fighting and even losing saves lives in the future. They might not want to mess with a bunch of crazy fanatics and make a better deal.
The Last Revolt
Gamla “Massada” of the Golan Gamla is the greatest monument to Jewish heroism in all our history
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evEElBC2BWg&list=PL3DeTMI2d2B_Mbipi3BAztszPnZ4Oia-9
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AokPCNW2_gg
yamit82 Said:
Asking such a question, indeed, would give one a complete blank canvas to paint ANYTHING on it…
Of course, I might be wrong, (and that will not be the first time… 🙂 ) but somehow, I do not think that you would fall into this catgory, that Mr. Ross and I were describing. Thus, you are ‘defending’ them because of their devotion to torah and halachic jewish rituals… you ‘take their side’ perhaps because it is in opposition to the ‘secular’ side.
As I have pointed out in other posts, while good jews of all stripes are engaged in a ridiculous fight as to ‘who is and who isn’t a jew, or to what degree’… there are very concrete imminent dangers to the jews and the land of Israel. As we know (?), God helps those that help themselves…
We both share, admiration for Dr Aryeh Eldad. I think that THIS should be a role model, to try and emulate and NOT the Bnei Brak / Meah Shearim crowd….
Do you really see ANY of these davening crowds THAT DO NOT GIVE A DAMN about the land about to be taken away, as the fighting jews in David’s army or Yehudah Ha’Makabee???
I totally agree with you regarding the three legged stool of judaism. I am also most certain, that were Dr Eldad (for example) the image of the ‘religious jew’… THERE WOULD BE A LOT MORE secular/non ritual-observant jews that would come out of the woods towards this new ‘revival of judaism’. Most elite fighting units in IDF are made of (mostly?) kipot srugot officers.
THIS, is something to aspire to.
I really doubt that there are many secular/non ritual-observant jews that are looking forward to let go of nationalism, productive work, and pretend to be a pious observant jew…. but proceed and throw stones ON SHABBAT (that is ok), make a big deal about a woman LOOKING LIKE A WOMAN but frequent bordellos in secret….. (that is ok)….
If anything, these ‘haredim’ have a turning off effect on a huge scale.
What I am saying is that it does not have to be that way.
the phoenix Said:
Who knows? Who predicted Herzl etc. What is determinative events or people and timing?
The Haredim certainly maintain and pass on Jewish learning, customs and traditions, missing in the secular population. You will hardly ever see one supporting or agreeing with leftists except when it conforms to their view of social justice and narrow political advantage. Their birthrate compared to secularmore than compensates for the negative secular Jewish birth rate.
The purpose and main function of the Rabbis after Rome and the destruction of the temple was to preserve Judaism without the Temple in the exile. In that they succeeded but now that we have returned to the Land in numbers and with sovereignty there must be a change in emphasis back to the Judaism as it was practiced before the exile.
The Maccabees: Revolution And Redemption
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fpk5p8X0sA8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJWIgVBDkfo
@ bernard ross:
@ yamit82
Re Bernard’s comment #21
Re phoenix comment # 17
… It just sounds soooo much better when mr Ross is saying it, but yeah, in essence I was trying to say the same thing….. 🙂
@ yamit82: I watched all 6 parts of the Jewish rebellion but I couldn’t believe that after a 47 day siege, and being so smart, that Josephus crew fell asleep at night and the romans walked through the front door. Perhaps he was recording “history” with the romans looking over his shoulder. 🙂
I found something else odd in the destruction of the Temple at the end. That the defending zealots fought in the temple, in some way leading to its destruction, and then at the end asking to leave to save themselves. “…temple burned down, can we leave now?” Was there any truth to that in the Jewish version?
yamit82 Said:
Somehow I find it extremely difficult to equate the Haredim of today,who can only protest for their perks or to avoid the army, with the Maccabees. These Haredim protest to avoid fighting and who knows what they actually believe beyond perks. I do not assume their piety because of their uniform. I can only see how they behave and what they do. Anyone can daven, put on a black hat and coat and read Torah. In fact it appears to me that the Haredim of today are the opposite of the “traditional orthodox Jews” of ancient Israel. Rather they are more indicative of the foreign Hellenized Jews. They appear to be more connected to the Polish 18th century diaspora than eretz Israel, representing a foreign Jewry that made an idol of the diaspora. To me they are the symbol of everything that divides the Jews. The secular Jewish dividers of today, whom I abhor, are only temporal but these “Haredim” institutionalize the division of the Jews for generations. I do not find an Israel run by the black hats and peyot to be an attractive future for the Jews, unless they are thinking for returning to Poland. I do not see them as role models. I do not look at them and think Maccabees. I am for throwing off everything reminiscent of the european diaspora including possibly even “religious” ideas arising from that culture. David is my kind of Jew, better to look further back and skip the diaspora. I was very interested in your link to Singer and his talk about David being a righteous man although he had sinned and the Jewish concept of sin and forgiveness. To me todays Haredim seem to only have an appearance and an intellectual engagement with “religion”. Anyone can claim to be pious and use that a a fig leaf for impiety. I find it despicable that they intentionally live off the other Jews, whom they appear to despise and take for granted the Land of Israel which they appear to reject. Did the Haredi build the land of Israel, did Hashem choose them to make the land bloom? I see nothing Jewish or Judaic in their behavior besides their obvious Polish Jewish appearances. I dont understand why they left Poland. It appears that they elude their obligation to be in community with fellow Jews by declaring their fellow Jews to be not jewish. David is a better role model for a future Israel I think.
@ the phoenix:
Smarty Pants
@ honeybee:
Yes they do honeybee. There are three types. I just looked it up on Wikipedia (in Hebrew) but when I clicked on english translation, it did not have the same info.
the phoenix Said:
Porcupines DON’T LIVE IN ISRAEL!!!! Yamit82 is “pulling yore leg”. Or else he ain/t where he says he is at. Now that Southern!!
@ yamit82:
@ yamit82:
I understand that yamit.
But,
No disrespect meant towards today’s Haredim…. Can you HONESTLY say that it will be THEY that will save Judaism?
If you said, the ‘kipot srugot’ will save the day AND Judaism… I would wholeheartedly agree with that.
They seem to have the three legs of Judaism that you have mentioned earlier. (That is what I was hoping feiglin to be…..)
But, these ‘yeshiva bookhers’…. I just so not see them ‘saving the day’ as it were.
I had quite a eureka moment after listening to the second video (what is Judaism)…
Will be watching the video links you have attached, the Jewish revolt, tomorrow.
How is the cat and the porcupine? 🙂
the phoenix Said:
If you study Jewish history you will come to the conclusion that the Jewish people were never more unified than they are today. We have had several tragic civil wars in our history. There have been at least 3-4 Jewish genocides in our history besides the last one. We have lost 10 of the 12 tribes and the kingdom of Israel and have been exiled from the Land twice. We have had leaders that make Saddam Hussein look like Mother Theresa. Over a million Jews were lost in the First Jewish War and hundreds of thousands sold into slavery. We lost over a half million in the 3rd Jewish war and as many in the Diaspora war (Kitos War). We have survived at least 2-3 false messiahs that turned the Jewish people on it’s head and survived with great sacrifice the karite schism. We survived Haman of Persia that threatened genocide of all Jews in the Persian Empire and at that time it was most of the Jews in the world and lets not forget the bloody Maccabees Revolt a civil war of some 23 years pitting Hellenized assimilated Jews against the traditional orthodox Jews of the time. Judaism and Jews exist today because the Hellenized Jews lost to the Haredim of that time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cn9bP06KFs&list=PL717849F516225602
the phoenix Said:
Oh Phoenix,Sweetheart,must youlet yourself so open.
@ yamit82:
I sense some traction here.
What then would it take to have the rabbis become more nationalistic (and by inference… Their followers)
Go straight to the source and bypass all this effort wasted on these ‘middlemen’!
What am I missing?
@ bernard ross:
I can’t argue your understanding. There is something wrong with a Judaism practiced with no real difference in the Land of Israel and that of Borough_Park,_Brooklyn. Screw protests!!! If their rabbis ordered it there would be 100,000 Jews on the temple mount taking the down the Muslim abominations brick by brick and the IDF and police would be helpless. Even the Arabs would remain passive in the face of such a massive Jewish presence backed up by Israel security services in order to protect them.
Judaism is a 3 legged system. (Torah,Jewish people and the land of Israel.) The ultra Orthodx of all stripes have forgotten the Land of Israel part or the nationalist part of Judaism even though they live here. Their Judaism is devoid of the national content of Judaism which means it is a corruption of true Judaism. They view the State and secular Jews as useful idiots to supply them with the means to grow and expand their numbers without full participation and responsibility for the State. These Jews can live and practice their version of Judaism anywhere they are allowed in the world.
The nationalist religious Jews have too much respect for the state and it’s temporal authority and laws. They have elevated the state into a ‘Holy Cow’, a form of idolatry. They have placed the State above the Torah partly out of fear of a civil war. In doing so they pick and choose which values and commandments to obey and what not.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38_V1jdFeUg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buhBtLWzSUU
@ the phoenix:
One of my mentors said me at kiddush this past weekend (I love the chats we have) there is one thing that two Jews will always agree on…..what the third Jew should be doing!
@ yamit82:
Wonderful. Just wonderful….
So, after a lot of sound and fury, there seems to be a LOT of internal strife to the nature of who is a Jew and who is not a Jew and according to whom…
And I can just see one asking the other with an upturned palm , ‘why, who are you?’…. (Lamah mee atah???)
And while all this bs fight goes on, as Bernard Ross commented above, the country is about to be dismembered…. But THAT is not important….
🙁
Haredi or Conservadox? By: Tzvi Fishman
There are many people who claim to be Haredi Jews, but they aren’t Haredi at all. In the Torah portion of “V’Etchanan,” which we read on Shabbat, we learn from Rashi’s commentary the true nature of a Haredi Jew, epitomized by Moshe Rabeinu himself. On the verse which describes how Moshe set aside three cities of refuge on the eastern bank of the Yarden, Rashi states, “Being that his heart was God fearing (hared) to set them aside, even though their status wouldn’t take effect until those in the Land of Canaan were set aside first – Moshe said, ‘A mitzvah that is possible to observe, I will observe it’” (Devarim, 4:41). In other words, we learn from Moshe that the true meaning of Haredi is someone whose fear and reverence of God so fills his being that he rushes to do every single mitzvah as speedily and as completely as he can, not wanting to miss the slightest opportunity in serving God. We also find this Haredi quality in Moshe’s great desire to live in the Land of Israel. Moshe wanted to make aliyah more than anything else. This is a sign of a true Haredi Jew – a towering love for the Land of Israel and a passionate desire to live there. As we wrote in a previous blog, our Sages tell us that Moshe begged God again and again, 515 times, to enter the Land of Israel. This was his life’s supreme desire – not merely to long for the Land of Israel, but to go there to perform the commandments of the Torah the very first opportunity he had. This is what being a true Haredi Jew is all about. A person who wants to fulfill the will of God as completely as he can, rushes to perform every mitzvah he can. He doesn’t wait for a mitzvah to come his way – he hurries to be first on line. Loving God and fearing him with a burning reverence and awe, Moshe yearned to fulfill God’s will in everything, especially regarding the mitzvah of living in the Land of Israel, a mitzvah which our Sages tell us is equal in weight to all the commandments of the Torah (Sifre, Reah, 12:29), as it says over and over again in the portion we read on Shabbat: “Now therefore, hearken O Israel, to the statutes and to the judgments which I teach you to do them, that you may live and go in and possess the Land which the L-rd G-d of your fathers gives you (Devarim, 4:1). “Behold, I have taught you statutes and judgments, even as the L-rd my G-d commanded me, that you should act accordingly in the Landwhither you go in to possess” (Devarim, 4:5). “And the L-rd commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments, that you might do them in the Land into which you go over to possess (Devarim, 4:14). “Thou shall keep therefore His statutes and His commandments which I command thee this day, that it may go well with thee, and with thy children after thee, and that thou may prolong thy days upon the Land which the L-rd thy G-d gives thee, forever” (Devarim, 4:40). “I will speak to thee all of the commandments and the statutes and the judgments, which thou shall teach them, that they may do them in the Landwhich I gave them to possess” (Devarim, 5:27). “You shall walk in all the ways which the L-rd your G-d has commanded you, that you may live, and that it be well with you, and that you may prolong your days in the Land which you shall possess (Devarim, 5:30). “Now this is the commandment, the statutes and the judgments, which the L-rd your G-d commanded to teach you, that you might do them in the Land into which you go to possess it (Devarim, 6:1). “Hear therefore, O Israel, and take care to do it, that it may be well with thee, and that you may increase mightily, as the L-rd G-d of thy fathers has promised thee, in that Land that flows with milk and honey” (Devarim, 6:3).
Just from a straightforward reading of this Torah portion alone, it is obvious that God wants the Jewish People to keep the Torah in the Land of Israel. After all, the holy Torah is meant to be kept in the Holy Land, not in Egypt, or the Sinai wilderness, not even in America. Because of our sins, when we were exiled from our Land, our Prophets and Rabbis told us to continue to keep whatever mitzvot we could, so we wouldn’t forget them, saying, “Set up waymarks for yourself, make yourselves signposts” (Yermiyahu, 31:20), but the true, intended place for the observance of the commandments is in Eretz Yisrael, as the Torah clearly repeats again and again (See, Sifre, Ekev, 11:18. And Rashi and the Ramban, Devarim, 11:18). So, of course, a true Haredi, in the original meaning of the term, would rush to do everything he could to fulfill the will of God in keeping the commandments of the Torah in the Land of Israel – giving it at least the same passionate effort as he exerts in securing the most glatt kosher food for his family, and in finding the straightest, most perfect lulav for Sukkot. Rabbi Tzvi Yehuda Kook, Rosh Yeshiva at the Mercaz Harav Yeshiva in Yerushalaim, would emphasize the proper relationship that a Jew should have to Torah by saying, “Thank G-d, we don’t choose which mitzvot we do like some people do. We don’t say, ‘This mitzvah is pleasing to me, so I’ll do it, but this mitzvah is too difficult so I won’t. We keep all of the Torah with complete emunah and faith in the Lord.” We should all strive to be Haredi like Moshe, our teacher, who rushed to do every mitzvah he could and who wanted to observe the Torah in the Land of Israel more than anything else. And one other point – Moshe didn’t want his children to be Haredi in Egypt, or in the wilderness of Sinai. He wanted them to be Haredi in the Land of Israel. And definitely not in the United States of America.
@ bernard ross:
I can’t argue your understanding. There is something wrong with a Judaism practiced with no real difference in the Land of Israel and that of Borough_Park,_Brooklyn. Screw protests!!! If their rabbis ordered it there would be 100,000 Jews on the temple mount taking the down the Muslim abominations brick by brick and the IDF and police would be helpless. Even the Arabs would remain passive in the face of such a massive Jewish presence backed up by Israel security services in order to protect them.
Judaism is a 3 legged system. (Torah,Jewish people and the land of Israel.) The ultra Orthodx of all stripes have forgotten the Land of Israel part or the nationalist part of Judaism even though they live here. Their Judaism is devoid of the national content of Judaism which means it is a corruption of true Judaism. They view the State and secular Jews as useful idiots to supply them with the means to grow and expand their numbers without full participation and responsibility for the State. These Jews can live and practice their version of Judaism anywhere they are allowed in the world.
The nationalist religious Jews have too much respect for the state and it’s temporal authority and laws. They have elevated the state into a ‘Holy Cow’, a form of idolatry. They have placed the State above the Torah partly out of fear of a civil war. In doing so they pick and choose which values and commandments to obey and what not.
“The Lord of hosts will defend them; and they shall devour” Zechariah 9:15
Jewish law distinguishes between two kinds of war: obligatory and voluntary. The obligatory war is fought to conquer the Promised Land and defend it from any enemy, even one who offers a land-for-peace deal (like the Amonites) or merely demands straw and hay. The voluntary war is fought for expansion of the boundaries of the Promised Land. Much of the population, notably newlyweds and cowards, are exempted from military service in voluntary wars which require the Sanhedrin and a prophet. Now the Torah spells out the consequences of the enemy’s freedom of choice clearly. He can accept the Jewish offer of peace or fight. The peace deal that normal Jews offered to our enemies would have sent most modern rabbis running for the Criminal Court in Hague: the surrendering inhabitants had to accept “tribute and servitude.” They could, however, continue pagan worship if these things happened away from the Promised Land; contrary to the liberal tikkun olam nonsense, Jews did not intend to serve as a beacon to nations who could persist in their pagan filth. The Exodus 20:24 commandment to extirpate foreign worship only applies to the Promised Land, not to the entire territory conquered by Jews.
“Two delusions plague the minds of Jews, even those generally knowledgeable of the Torah: that the commandment to cleanse the Promised Land of its natives applies to the seven ancient nations only, and that they only have to be expelled. The truth is, the commandment tells us to cleanse away any natives, and once they have raised their weapons against Jews they must be exterminated. Many people may not like that, but that is Judaism, like it or not, and everything on the matter can be learned from the opening chapter of the Book of Deuteronomy.”
On the surface, Exodus 34:11 says that G-d will do all the dirty work, “Lo, I’m expelling [the six Canaanite nations] from before you.” Well, the Torah is more religious than us: it attributes all actions to G-d, whether performed by him directly or through human agents. So Deuteronomy 1:8 clarifies, “Look, I gave you this land, come and conquer it.” G-d did his part on the grand scale, by spiritually allocating this land to Jews, but we must act in the physical realm.
G-d doesn’t expect Jews to be perfect. Other nations are exterminated for their transgressions, but not Jews. The Torah is explicit that the Canaanites lost their land because of their transgressions, but Jews would return there after having been dispersed. The Exile has ended and Israel reestablished not because of Jews’ merits—we don’t merit that much—but only because G-d has a purpose for Jews. We’re his instrument, experimental mice if you wish. He realizes his divine plans through us. Whatever happens to our enemies is not for our sake, but for his. On that, I believe, Satmar and most Haredim are wrong: even ruled by crooks and socialists, Israel is not an accident, but a part of the divine plan laid out in prophecies.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buhBtLWzSUU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38_V1jdFeUg
@ bernard ross:
Their focus is on the Bible and its interpretations by their various sects Rabbanim. On itself such dedication was never codified in the Torah which does call for all of us to be believers and to comply with 10 Commands and 613 by laws. Including learning every day but not exclusively. That is a major problem for them and us all. They rarely identify the rest of the Jews as sufficiently Jewish… They do not believe on the state as it is and consequently do not support anyone else. A true tragedy just as much as it is the secular sector.
They are nevertheless a formidable force growing every day.
@ honeybee:
Any time he wants…
@ bernard ross:
@ bernard ross:
Hmmmm….
Mr Ross, I think you are a very dangerous right wing nut…
(And I am right there with you…)
Once again, you hit the nail on the head.
And nobody seems to mind or address the blatant irony/hypocrisy ??!
Yet not one of them protest on behalf of Judea Samaria and Temple Mount remaining under Jewish sovereignty
This is the Jewish religious sector, and leadership that expects to be considered as a moral force.
Why would a Jew take them seriously as an example to follow?
the phoenix Said:
tTHow many time must I tell yawl,yawl orta be knowin it by now,or else yawl’s is as dumb as a stump!!!!
@ SHmuel HaLevi 2:
Did you read the Newspapers,the Mexicans captured “El Chapo”,how long do you think it will take to pay the morditats and be on the run again.
Many on the left/far left and purely and simply antisemitic.
I have looked up the three ‘lesser known protagonists that Martin Sherman has quoted at the beginning of his article…
I TRULY cannot believe what I am reading…
for the LIFE of me I cannot understand (refuse to believe?) that there are such characters, and to what an extent!
They make the curious american look like a keepah srugah Jew….
Enemies from without AND from within…. BUT (ok, phoenix, remember: deep breaths…) have faith…. Yhieh b’seder….
We would be in great shape with Jews. Our disasters are predicated upon the existence in most positions of state control of UNJEWS.
Unless and if we, the people do not eradicate from said state control positions the unJews, we will intentionally destroyed as a Jewish people. The demand… by Netanyahu of recognition as a “Jewish State” is just as credible as his cadre’s plans for “peace”.
The regime or combina here must go and freely elected Jewish patriots must take control. Now.