Agreements with the Vatican are capitulation to their plans for the Old City and the Temple Mount – or should we say the “Holy Basin”.
A long-awaited agreement between the Vatican and Israel appears to be near finality.
The two main points revolve around the Church’s requests to build two centers in Israel: a church in a section of the Caesaria National Park where a site dedicated to Paul once stood, and the use of a plot on Mount Zion in Jerusalem.
The structure on Mt. Zion, the highest point of Jerusalem, is known as the Cenacle, where the Last Supper is believed to have taken place, and according to the deal which will be signed in the coming months, it will become open to Catholic worship once again.
The Vatican asks Israel to allow the Church to build a passageway through the Diaspora Yeshiva, which takes care of the area known as David’s Tomb, and to enable thousands of Christian worshipers to access the Last Supper Room more easily .
The area has strategic value, since it is a few hundred yards from the Temple Mount, so the Catholic Church will turn it into the international center for Catholics all around the world.
As the New Sanhedrin stated in 2009, those in the Vatican who initiated the concept of the “Holy Basin”, which is pivotal in this agreement, intended to remove exclusive Jewish sovereignty from the Temple Mount and the Old City and – in effect – aimed at “the total removal of Jewish sovereignty”.
Father Athanasius Macora, secretary of a Franciscan commission monitoring holy sites, declared that “Franciscan control of the Last Supper room would open the site to regular Christian prayer services, Masses and other ceremonies”. Now the Franciscans are permitted to have a mass only twice a year: on the day of Pentecost and on the Holy Thursday. Christian pilgrim groups have there a short silent prayer when visiting.
Recently Father Peter Stravinskas told Vatican Radio: “It is unfortunate that this site of the Lord’s last supper is not accessible to Christians for worship. It is controlled by the Israeli civil authorities. In fact when Pope John Paul went to Jerusalem there had to be a special permission for him to be able to celebrate mass in the Cenacle. There is some talk now, of course, that perhaps there’s a negotiation going on in order to return the Cenacle to the care of the Church”.
That’s why the Franciscans, who will benefit from Israel-Vatican deal, claim the title of “Guardian of Mount Zion”. Pope Francis is very close to this order, which established political links with the PLO in Jerusalem. In his first significant appointment to the Roman Curia, Pope Francis has taken the highly unusual step of naming the actual head of the Franciscan order, Father Jose Rodriguez Carballo, as Secretary of the Vatican’s Congregation for the Institutes of Consecrated life.
Born in Lodoselo, Spain, Carballo was ordained priest in Jerusalem in 1977.
We have to remember that in 2002, the “Franciscan Custody of the Holy Land” criticized the demand by the U.S. Congress that Jerusalem be recognized as the capital of Israel, calling it “a decision that does not respect Israeli-Palestinian peace talks”.
Those who will be in charge of the Cenacle on Mount Zion have been among the most ardent partisans of a Palestinian Arab State.
In 2000, before the suicidal Camp David talks, Yasser Arafat met Islamic and Christian clergymen at his offices in Ramallah to get their backing for Arab sovereignty over Jerusalem. Among the clergymen who attended the meeting were Diodoros I, Patriarch of the Greek Orthodox Church, Torkom II, patriarch of the Armenian Orthodox Church, Catholic Patriarch Michel Sabbah and officials from the Custody of the Holy Land. This is the same order which will be in charge of the Mount Zion structure.
All of the Christian churches currently standing in Jerusalem are seen as the product of the destruction of the Jewish people, their dispossession and exile. It is the Christian exile which Christianity glorifies in as being everlasting.
There is the risk that the new church on Mount Zion will be used to foment a political war on the rest of the Jewish Jerusalem.
The very spirit of Israel’s capitulation to the Vatican lies in the Franciscans order’s definition of Mount Zion: “The place that is traditionally known as the place of the Last Supper and of the bestowing of the gift of the Holy Spirit is today occupied by a Yeshiva or Jewish religious school”.
Will Israel dismantle this “occupation” as it did in Gush Katif? In 2005, while the synagogue of Netzarim was burned by Arab terrorists, the Catholic Church stood silent despite Israeli rabbis’ pleas to condemn the torching.
The writer, an Italian journalist with Il Foglio, writes a twice-weekly column for Arutz Sheva. He is the author of the book “A New Shoah”, that researched the personal stories of Israel’s terror victims, published by Encounter. His writing has appeared in publications, such as the Wall Street Journal, Frontpage and Commentary. He is at work on a book about the Vatican and Israel.
Bill Narvey Said:
Havn’t you learned that Yamit 82 uses a “put down” to test your mettle. To determine if you can stand and defend your arguments of if you will fade away.
Gird up your loins!!!!!!!
Shy Guy Said:
The ‘Truth’ is the risen One and He has set me free.
Maybe you don’t believe He really rose from the dead. An atheist lawyer once decided to put an end to all talk about someone rising from the dead. He thought correctly since Christendom would end once he proved the resurrection was false people would realize they were believing a myth. The lawyer diligently set out to prove he was right but the more he searched the clearer it became that the resurrection was an actual historical proven fact. With the atheist lawyer confronted with such strong evidence he knew he’d be a fool to go against his own proof of an event. He put together his findings in a book called, ‘Evidence that Demands a Verdict.’ How do you handle the powerful evidence for the resurrection? Only God can raise someone from the dead.
Yamit-#44 & 45. Ignoring your typical put down, please explain your statement: Been there done that. Exactly where have you been, what have you done, when did you do it and why have you ceased being an advocate/activist outside of commenting on Israpundit?
You say:
Please specify the mistakes you speak of, explain in what circumstances and how they are reversible and illustrate your views with specific examples.
Please explain your comment:
Do you mean all Jews are of that mind or just some? If only some, why do you believe those Jews that Voltaire speaks of will have greater power and influence over those Jews not included in Voltaire’s characterization of Jews?
No one disputes that Christian antisemitism has by forced conversion or en masse murder, historically greatly depleted Jewish numbers, perhaps even moreso than Muslim antisemitism has by forced conversion or en mass murder.
While Christian antisemitism remains in some lesser sectors of Christendom and it is resurgent in the EU, forced conversion and murder of Jews on masse is not on their agenda.
What current evidence exists that makes you believe that the historical existential threat the Jewish community at large faced is still being faced today from Christianity and that antisemitism will in time overtake most of Christianity?
Don’t waste your time dissing me. I will take your poor opinion of me as a given. I expect not everyone has a good opinion of me, just as they don’t have a good opinion of you.
That really is irrelevant to informed discussion and debate.
You have raised or alluded to a number of issues or made certain assertions that call for elaboration if your views can be fully understood and the case for your views can be cogently made.
I do hope you provide me with a civil, reasoned and informed reply.
alanmos Said:
On such a critical matter, and when your claims continue to be refuted, don’t you think it’s time to delve a little deeper?
Sorry but when these conversations come up, there are always excuses from the other side or a deflection away from what was being discussed. There’s a pattern here.
My response here is limited to a handful of sentences but it should be important enough for you, who seriously believes in something shown over and over again to be a house of cards.
Yamit has it right. In all its irony, the best verse you should be motivated by is “the truth will set you free”. But you have to stand back and be objective. And it will be painful.
yamit82 Said:
Yamit, ShyGuy gave a quicker and more concise answer than you did. You sent me a Biblical lesson on Hebrew which I didn’t ask for. I don’t have time to watch/listen to a bunch of videos you send. When someone with wisdom and knowledge is willing to share with others like Shyguy did, it is very much appreciated. Still, I thank you for the words you share for you provide an interesting outlook on many subjects.
@ Bill Narvey:
Tourism is a source of income, that’s what the Jewish leaders believe I think?
Better recall Voltaire, a wise anti-Semite who remarked correctly that should the Jews get their own state, they would sell it.
More Jews were murdered in the name of Jesus than on the orders of Hitler—who was approved by Christian clerics. The Germans only carried the Christian ideas to their logical conclusion. Up to then, royal defenders of Christianity only expelled us, but murder is more logical. It does not matter whether Jesus was a good Jew or the founder of the worst anti-Semitic movement ever. We detest Wagner’s music not on its merits (and it is very bad), but because Hitler loved it. Christianity is not a theoretical discourse to be judged on its merits, but a deadly practical weapon against Jews.
Churches in Jerusalem are a celebration of Auschwitz.
There will come a day when there will be no churches, Mosques or any other symbol of foreign religions and cults in the Land of Israel.
Jews are said to have destroyed all churches and symbols of christianity in 614. Jewish violence against the Christians in Jerusalem after the Persian conquest of the city in 614: “Every Christian church,” “was demolished; that of the Holy Sepulchre was the great object of furious hatred.” In 614 “the vengeance of the Jews was greater than their avarice”
What was can be again.
@ Bill Narvey:
Been there done that. It’s as useless as you are. Whatever mistakes our leaders make will always be reversible in the future. The crime is the needless pain and suffering many of us will endure because of our weakness and their betrayals.
“They related [Queen] Esther’s words to Mordechai. Then Mordechai said to reply to [Queen] Esther, ‘Do not imagine in your soul that you will be able to escape in the king’s palace any more than the remainder of the Jews. For, if you persist in keeping silent at a time like this, relief and deliverance will come to the Jews from another place, while you and your father’s house will perish. And who knows whether it was just for such a time as this that you attained the royal position!'” (Esther 4:12-14)
———————————————————————————————————————————————-
“There is a futility that takes place on the Earth — there are righteous ones who are treated as [if they had performed] the actions of the evil ones; and there are evil ones who are treated as [if they had performed] the actions of the righteous ones — I declared that, also, this is a futility.” (Ecclesiastes 8:14)
@ alanmos:
@ alanmos:
Apparently you did not listen to the links I supplied for your reference.
Listen this this from the 38th min and it will give you a lesson in biblical Hebrew grammar.
Of course if your mind is closed nothing with change your mind.. We have suffered many brain dead yeshu followers. We may not convince them of anything but at least they eventually come to realize their inadequacies.—- Supporting the unsupportable. and leave.
The Truth will set you free I’ve heard said somewhere?
Note: If you ask of me questions and receive a reply. I expect you to read watch or listen to my replies and respond. Your subsequent questions to ShyGuy indicate to me that you have not done so. That leaves me with the conclusion that we should not afford you any courtesy or respect and to be treated accordingly.
alanmos Said:
No. Whenever other peoples are mentioned, it is always in the masculine: Egypt, Amalek, the 7 Canaanite nations, etc. This is true just the same in modern Hebrew.
Shy Guy Said:
Shy, is Israel the only nation referred to as a people-nation or are all nations considered people-nations?
@ dove:
Out of the woodwork they come!
Judaism lives!! It lives in the heart, mind and soul of every Jew, whether they realize it or not. Jesus religion was also Judaism – the church changed it, claiming that it was Jesus but it was actually Paul – the zealot. If we have to repeat this every day to you Jewish deniers – then so be it. One American Rabbi said that Jesus ‘made it to the top’. Making it to the top does not mean that he became God. He beat the devil, he beat evil with Gods help. There are many different perspectives on who and what Jesus REALLY was. So far, the claims by the church have PROVED to be wrong. So the Catholics and the Christians need to work on their own boys and leave us Jews alone.
My comment #36 inexplicably is being held for moderation. Please release it.
Yamit, et all – Venting your frustrations, anger and objections on Israpundit to the GOI ceding authority to the Vatican over Christian religious sites, is not an exercise of pro-active advocacy, but a useless exercise of getting things off your chest to make yourselves feel better.
The Israeli government needs to hear your voices and in particular the voices of Israeli citizens.
To that end, I encourage Israeli contributors to Israpundit to write to and call not only PM Netanyahu, but to Knesset members. For those Knesset members in your area, request an appointment to express your objections.
Contact information for PM Netanyahu and Knesset members are at: http://www.knesset.gov.il/mk/eng/mkindex_current_eng.asp#N
In addition, speak to and arrange meetings with your Rabbis, community leaders, friends and acquaintances and induce them to raise their voices as well.
If you Israeli contributors are really serious about objecting to the impending Israeli government’s concession to the Vatican, you must do far more than just vent on Israpundit.
alanmos Said:
No. Unlike English, Hebrew intrinsically distinguishes male from female. It depends on whether the subject being referenced is itself a masculine or feminine word.
In the example you gave, Israel is normally referring to the geopolitical nation. Israel, the state, is a “medina”. That’s feminine. Hence “Medinat Yisrael” – the State of Israel. You would never refer to Israel in this sense in anything but the feminine.
In the Tanach, Israel refers to the people-nation. The word used is “ahm”. That is masculine. Hence “Ahm Yisrael” – the Nation of Israel. You would never refer to Israel in this sense in anything but the masculine.
How long are you going to keep trying to hammer a square peg into a round hole?
@ alanmos:
http://mordochai.tripod.com/yshayahu53t2.html#top
@ alanmos:
http://www.simpletoremember.com/media/a/isaiah-53-part-1/
http://www.simpletoremember.com/media/a/isaiah-53-part-2/
yamit82 Said:
Yamit, [or anyone who knows Hebrew],in Isaiah 53 the word ‘he’ or ‘him’ are used to identify the object in the verse. You have said that it is Israel who is being spoken about in that chapter. Normally, in English a feminine word such as ‘her’ or ‘she’ is used to describe a country. In Hebrew is the masculine used such as ‘he’, ‘him,’ ‘his’ used to describe countries? Like for instance in this sentence, ‘Israel has discovered natural gas off the edge of her shores and she may some day receive money through it.’ In Hebrew can the words ‘her’ and ‘she’ be replaced with ‘his’ and ‘he’ and still be grammatically correct?
alanmos Said:
Are you NUTS?
“And Moses said to God, “Behold I come to the children of Israel, and I say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they say to me, ‘What is His name?’ what shall I say to them?”
“God said to Moses, “Ehyeh asher ehyeh (I will be what I will be),” and He said, “So shall you say to the children of Israel, ‘Ehyeh (I will be) has sent me to you.’ (This was spoken only to Moses and not intended to be told to the Israelites.)
“And God said further to Moses, “So shall you say to the children of Israel, ‘The Lord God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.’ This is My name forever, and this is how I should be mentioned in every generation.”
“O Lord, Your name is forever; O Lord, the mention of Your name is for every generation” (Ps. 135:14)
These verses are not messianic and none refer to the Pagan deity you call jesus
Another christian mistranslation of the Hebrew. All christian scholars concede this.
a spirit of grace and supplications: That it should come into their mind to supplicate Me, and they will be in My good graces.
they shall look to Me because of those who have been thrust through: Jonathan renders: And they shall supplicate Me because of their wanderings. And they shall look to Me to complain about those of them whom the nations thrust through and slew during their exile.
and they shall mourn over it: Over that slaughter.
as one mourns over an only son: As a man mourns over his only son. And our Sages expounded this in tractate Sukkah (52a) as referring to the Messiah, son of Joseph, who was slain. The Messiah son of Joseph may be killed by the enemy and this is who is being mourned over. Others say that those amongst the Jewish people who have suffered shall be mourned over.
A more correct Jewish translation to English of this verse: “But he was pained because of our transgressions, crushed because of our iniquities; the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his wound we were healed.”
Isaiah 53 contains a deeply moving narrative which world leaders will cry aloud in the messianic age. The humbled kings of nations (52: 15) will confess that Jewish suffering occurred as a direct result of “our own iniquity,” (53:5) e.g., depraved Jew-hatred, rather than, as they previously thought, the stubborn blindness of the Jews.
The stunned reaction of the world’s nations to the unexpected vindication and redemption of the Jewish nation in the messianic age is a recurring theme throughout the Hebrew Scriptures. Israel’s neighbors will be amazed when their age-old assessment of the Jew is finally proven wrong. Throughout Israel’s long and bitter exile, the nations mistakenly attributed the miserable predicament of the Jew to his stubborn rejection of the world’s religions. In the End of Days, however, the gentiles will discover what was until then unimaginable – the unwavering Jew was, in fact, all this time faithful to the one true G-d. On the other hand, “We despised and held him of no account” (53:3).
Another christian mistranslation: Should read: ” For dogs have surrounded me; a band of evildoers has encompassed me, like a lion, my hands and feet. (like a lion, my hands and feet: As though they are crushed in a lion’s mouth, and so did Hezekiah say (in Isa. 38: 13): “like a lion, so it would break all my bones.”)
Another christian mistranslation. Should read: “And he gave his grave to the wicked, and to the wealthy with his kinds of death, because he committed no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth.”
Speaking about collective Israel not Youshka!!!! (and there was no deceit in his mouth: to accept idolatry (to accept a pagan deity as God [Parshandatha]).
“Many evils befall the righteous, but the Lord saves him from them all.” “He guards all his bones; not one of them was broken.” (LEARN HEBREW)
None are correct according to Jewish scripture. Not only have christians corrupted the Jewish concept of the end times messianic narrative, they have corrupted Jewish scripture in order to graft jesus into jewish scripture where none exists. Jews need not have faith in our messiah we will know him by his deeds as prophesied by our prophets. I said above Jews do not worship our Messiah (a man in every respect) he is not a spiritual savior.
things you mentioned which the Messiah shall accomplish are yet future.
True but that’s why your false deity can’t be THE MESSIAH. BINGO!!!
christian apologetic Gibberish!!!
@ alanmos:
There is no basis in your interpretation. All pious and observant Jews are Messianic , meaning their belief in the Jewish prophets and a futute Davidic/ Solomanic King will someday rein over Israel and the Jewish people and usher in the Messianic age. Certainly your man-god does not ever enter Jewish expectations and beliefs.
[Zechariah 13:8] AND IT SHALL COME TO PASS, THAT IN ALL THE LAND, SAITH THE LORD, TWO PARTS THEREIN SHALL BE CUT OFF AND DIE; BUT THE THIRD SHALL BE LEFT THEREIN.
[Zechariah 13:9] AND I WILL BRING THE THIRD PART THROUGH THE FIRE, AND WILL REFINE THEM AS SILVER IS REFINED, AND WILL TRY THEM AS GOLD IS TRIED: THEY SHALL CALL ON MY NAME, AND I WILL HEAR THEM: I WILL SAY, IT IS MY PEOPLE: AND THEY SHALL SAY, THE LORD IS MY GOD.
The general explanation suggested is that some calamity will occur. Two-thirds of the world’s people (including, by implication, two-thirds of the Jews?) will perish. Part of the remaining third of non-Jews and Jews by descent (lost ten tribes) will then accept the faith of Israel and identify as Jews, BUT then will come the troubles of Gog and Magog. There will be persecutions and the threat of extinction. Most of the non-Jews who accepted the Jewish faith will back out and it will be mainly those of Jewish/Israelite descent who remain attached to Jewish religion.
Zechariah says that the Jews of Judah prior to their final redemption will have endured a long history
Of having been persecuted and treated with contempt. “AS YE WERE A CURSE AMONG THE HEATHEN, O HOUSE OF JUDAH, AND HOUSE OF ISRAEL” (Zechariah 8;13).
That their religion will have been unique to them and that only at the latter days will it be acknowledged:
[Zechariah 8:23] TEN MEN SHALL TAKE HOLD OUT OF ALL LANGUAGES OF THE NATIONS, EVEN SHALL TAKE HOLD OF THE SKIRT OF HIM THAT IS A JEW, SAYING, WE WILL GO WITH YOU: FOR WE HAVE HEARD THAT GOD IS WITH YOU.
And that the days of mourning and fasting that they practiced will become feast days:
[Zechariah 8:19] THE FAST OF THE FOURTH MONTH, – Tammuz.
AND THE FAST OF THE FIFTH, – Av
AND THE FAST OF THE SEVENTH, – Tishrei (Gedaliah)
AND THE FAST OF THE TENTH, – Tebeth (Tevet).
SHALL BE TO THE HOUSE OF JUDAH JOY AND GLADNESS, AND CHEERFUL FEASTS; THEREFORE LOVE THE TRUTH AND PEACE.
Only the Jews were treated with contempt and persecuted throughout much of their history in exile.
Only they kept the fast days listed by Zechariah.
Only they kept the uniqueness of their belief which in the Last days will be acknowledged by everyone.
yamit82 Said:
NAME:
God said to Moses, ” I AM WHO I AM”; and He said, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘ I AM has sent me to you.'” Exodus 3:14
I AM the Way, the Truth, the Life
I AM the Door
I AM the Good Shepherd
The Lord is my Shepherd I shall not want.
DESCRIPTION:
“I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have PIERCED; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn. Zech 12:10
But one of the soldiers PIERCED His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out.
But He was PIERCED through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, And by His scourging we are healed. Is 53:5
For dogs have surrounded me; A band of evildoers has encompassed me; They PIERCED my hands and my feet. Ps 22:16
CHARACTERISTIC:
His grave was assigned with wicked men, Yet He was with a rich man in His death, Because He had done no violence, Nor was there any deceit in His mouth. Is 53:9
When it was evening, there came a rich man from Arimathea, named Joseph. And Joseph took the body and wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, and laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn out in the rock; and he rolled a large stone against the entrance of the tomb and went away.
For these things came to pass to fulfill the Scripture, “NOT A BONE OF HIM SHALL BE BROKEN.”
He keeps all his bones, Not one of them is broken. Ps 34:20
These are just a few of many descriptions, names and characteristics of the Messiah. The things you mentioned which the Messiah shall accomplish are yet future. Don’t let death or time cloud your thinking. Remember, God is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob who are all dead yet God will fulfill every promise to them in their resurrected bodies.
@ alanmos:
According to Jewish sources, the Messiah will be born of human parents and possess normal physical attributes like other people. He will not be a demi-god, nor will he possess supernatural qualities.
The Messiah must be descended on his father’s side from King David (see Genesis 49:10 and Isaiah 11:1). According to the Christian claim that Jesus was the product of a virgin birth, he had no father—and thus could not have possibly fulfilled the messianic requirement of being descended on his father’s side from King David!
Judaism, unique among all of the world’s major religions, does not rely on “claims of miracles” as the basis for its religion. In fact, the Bible says that G-d sometimes grants the power of “miracles” to charlatans, in order to test Jewish loyalty to the Torah (Deut. 13:4).
Jesus based solely on genealogy cannot be the The Jewish Messiah.
alanmos Said:
I challenge you to show one only one example in Tanach that mentions “Jesus” by name or description as christians describe him in the NT.
I challenge you to show 1 example in the Tanach where “THE MESSIAH” is even mentioned by description, name, and characteristics.
If the concept of The Messiah is a Jewish concept, don’t you think we Jews would know how to identify and know who is and isn’t our Messiah? Believe me when I tell you that the Jewish Messiah is not your Dionysian Pagan man-god. Is not a demigod, is not worshiped but a man in every sense with a mother and father who according to Jewish Prophets will:
The historical fact is that Jesus fulfilled none of these messianic prophecies.
Christians counter that Jesus will fulfill these in the Second Coming, but Jewish sources show that the Messiah will fulfill the prophecies outright, and no concept of a second coming exists.
My Grandmother according to such thinking could also be the Messiah. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6IYvP07LG4
yamit82 Said:
Yamit, I found in the Bible where it says 1/3 of the Jews in the land of Israel will become Messianic Jews.
“It will come about in all the land[Israel],” Declares the LORD, “That two parts in it will be cut off and perish; But the third will be left in it.
“And I will bring the third part through the fire”, Refine them as silver is refined, And test them as gold is tested. They will call on My name, And I will answer them; I will say, ‘They are My people[Jews],’ And they will say, ‘The LORD is my God.'” Zechariah 13:8,9
Some view this ‘third’ as some receiving God’s salvation message through missionaries. God will save His people through the message the missionaries preach. In that case most would consider the missionaries to be friends not foes. What’s your view on this Bible passage?
Alexander Gofen Said:
It does if you are Jewish.
Alexander Gofen Said:
Who cares what they believe. Their motivations are for the destruction of Jews and Judaism.
Alexander Gofen Said:
You want Jews to violate the commandments and pay for their recognition of our rights by paying them 30 pcs of silver? Careful you are conforming to their stereotype of Jews in that everything is for sale it’s just a matter of price.
Alexander Gofen Said:
The Scorpion and the Frog
A scorpion and a frog meet on the bank of a stream and the
scorpion asks the frog to carry him across on its back. The
frog asks, “How do I know you won’t sting me?” The scorpion
says, “Because if I do, I will die too.”
The frog is satisfied, and they set out, but in midstream,
the scorpion stings the frog. The frog feels the onset of
paralysis and starts to sink, knowing they both will drown,
but has just enough time to gasp “Why?”
Replies the scorpion: “Its my nature…”
Samuel Fistel Said:
Yes the early christians were traitors and treated as such by Bar Kochba and his followers. They were quislings who snitched on Jews to the Romans and pledged their allegiance to Rome. Eventually they took over Rome and and Jewish persecutions of Jews throughout the Empire began in deadly earnest. Rome became synonymous with christianity and christianity became Rome for Jews a toxic merger.
alanmos Said:
Who dat Obama? And The exact feeling of drug addicts towards their connection.
Eternal life? Pagan concept borrowed mostly from Mithra but certainly not a Jewish concept. May Jews even believe in reincarnation and in the end times a resurrection of all the past Jewish dead. Ezekiel (Dry Bones).
The Jewish Messiah is not a savior god, he is a man in every sense and a King descended from the House of David. Yesu was not descended fron that Kings of Israel From David or Solomon. Line must go through Solomon. According to Jewish Law your messiah was a sinner worthy of death sentence. Your messiah man god did not fulfill a single prophetic requirement so you pagans invented 2nd cumming which has no basis in Jewish scripture.
“You shall not recognize the gods of others in My Presence.” (Exodus 20:3; and Deuteronomy 5:7).
A Jew who accepts your messiah as a diety is agreeing that the G-d of Israel, and the Father who sired yeshu, and Allah are one and the same Creator, we Jews transgress this Commandment and thereby cause a great Chillul HaShem (desecration of G-d’s Name).
For a Jew there is no greater sin. It is akin to idol worship.
“‘Moreover, the Eternal One of Israel does not lie and does not relent, for He is not a human that He should relent.'” (I Samuel 15:29), echoing the earlier words of the Gentile prophet Balaam that: “‘God is not a man that He should be deceitful, nor a son of man that He should relent. Would He say and not do, or speak and not confirm?'” (Numbers 23:19).
SHmuel HaLevi 2 Said:
You could always advertise for replacements to complete the unfinished work of Yigal Amir. Good pay lifetime room and board, with benefits package. Free medical and dental plan, free cable TV, access to Open University and plenty of spare time to pursue many interests and hobbies.
@ alanmos:
I wrote a very detailed reply to you which was blocked by spam filter of this site if it sees the light of day I’m sure you will find it enlightening.
Let me just say that missionaries are the enemy of the Jews no less than any Muslim terrorist is and we maintain even more so. Let me just say that I support the Muslim treatment of christian pagans and believe we Jews should emulate them with regards to missionaries in general but specifically those in the Land of Israel. Like Muslims and their 72 virgins in their Muslim Paradise I am willing to see all Muslims reach ASAP their Paradise and all fundamentalist christians reaching and enjoying eternal life ASAP as well. If I can help to that end pls advise.
Maybe we Jews will get lucky and have Muslims send christians to their heaven and christians send Muslims to theirs.
Muslim version sounds more interesting than yours. Maybe you are into the wrong heavenly pagan belief system?
alanmos Said:
Who dat Obama? And The exact feeling of drug addicts towards their connection.
Eternal life? Pagan concept borrowed mostly from Mithra but certainly not a Jewish concept. May Jews even believe in reincarnation and in the end times a resurrection of all the past Jewish dead. Ezekiel (Dry Bones).
The Jewish Messiah is not a savior god, he is a man in every sense and a King descended from the House of David. Yesu was not descended fron that Kings of Israel From David or Solomon. Line must go through Solomon. According to Jewish Law your messiah was a sinner worthy of death sentence. Your messiah man god did not fulfill a single prophetic requirement so you pagans invented 2nd cumming which has no basis in Jewish scripture.
“You shall not recognize the gods of others in My Presence.” (Exodus 20:3; and Deuteronomy 5:7).
A Jew who accepts your messiah as a diety is agreeing that the G-d of Israel, and the Father who sired yeshu, and Allah are one and the same Creator, we Jews transgress this Commandment and thereby cause a great Chillul HaShem (desecration of G-d’s Name).
For a Jew there is no greater sin. It is akin to idol worship.
“‘Moreover, the Eternal One of Israel does not lie and does not relent, for He is not a human that He should relent.'” (I Samuel 15:29), echoing the earlier words of the Gentile prophet Balaam that: “‘God is not a man that He should be deceitful, nor a son of man that He should relent. Would He say and not do, or speak and not confirm?'” (Numbers 23:19).
Hebrew Scripture not only warns the Jewish people against merging or identifying the false gods of others with the G-d of Israel, but it also sends the very same warning to the Gentile nations; for, the Prophet Isaiah says to them:
Since christians deny the Jewish faith as true they sin against G-d by stealing Jewish souls away from the G-d of Israel and are not only the enemy of the Jewish people, Judaism but against the Jewish G-d of Israel as well. There will be an accounting for such a great sin against our G-d. From the looks at what’s happening in the world that time is not to distant.
yamit82 Said:
In what ways is it problematic? I’ve heard people get very happy when they have been given peace, hope and eternal life from the Messiah. The miracle of Jews becoming Messianic Jews will continue to grow until 1/3 of the Jewish population in Israel are Messianic. I think it says something about that in Zechariah. Wherever it says it in the Bible it refers to a large number of people.
Catholic meaning – universal. I still think that as Jews we will be granted another kick at the can before they bring in their anti-christ – which is probably what they will do after we expose the truth to the world and claim the christian rapture. (never hurts to have an imagination that would favour the Jewish people)
rongrand says:
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June 14, 2013 at 12:36 pm
First the Israeli government needs to take control of the Temple mount.
Remove the rock throwing knuckleheads and picnickers.
Start building the 3rd Temple
What needs to be understood is: A majority of Catholics support Israel and the Jewish rights to the Holy Land. The Vatican does not represent the view of a majority of Catholics, Our daily lives as Catholics along with our priest and bishop are fully engaged in maintaining our schools and parishes this alone is a full time occupation.
Trust me, growing up and educated in the Catholic school system, there was never a discussion or reference to converting Jews.
As sister would say, Jews have faith in G-d why would you want to convert them.
Catholic missionaries are about bring G-d to those who have no faith.
Similarly the US administration does not represent the view of the majority of Americans who support Israel and her rights to the Holy Land.
Therefore the actions of both the Vatican and the US administration are no reflection of the people they represent.
All nicely said. What’s the plan to remove the Vatican’s ally and ally of all other of our enemies? Peres. Complemented by Livni and Netanyahu and their creatures.
Peres, himself is guilty for the Oslo disaster including thousands of “victims of peace”. He must be brought to justice. Now!
While Peres and peresites remain in control, the harm that unJewish garbage will cause will never end.
The Jewish People must act to identify with a clean up and rebuilding plan.
Nothing else will do.
There is no problem in that certain places of biblical Israel are sanctuaries for Christians. After all, any consistent Christian must acknowledge the right of Israel for the entire biblical land of Israel promised by God. And truly consistent Christians wish that Jews rebuild the Third Temple on the Temple Mount no less than the Jews do.
Unfortunately, not all Christian denominations are consistent to the tenets of their own faith. However, those who do acknowledge Israel’s biblical rights, should be treated as friends of Israel. In negotiation with Christians Israel must demand explicit acknowledgements of its biblical rights, and then reciprocate Christians by acknowledging their Christian sanctuaries, and even offer protection of those sanctuaries from Islamic piranhas.
In this historic moment both Judaism and Christianity are under attacks of Islam. Now they must be allies because they happen to be on the same side of the existential war. In order to win this war such an alliance does make sense – see http://www.resonoelusono.com/DeclarationForIsrael.htm
The historical jesus in historical Jerusalem:
There is not a single christian site in Israel which has any documented history. Jerusalem was destroyed, not once, but twice, within a hundred years of jesus death. It was then rebuilt from scratch as a pagan city. All the jewish followers of jesus had disappeared during that time (driven off or killed by Jews fighting the Jewish revolts against Rome).
Three hundred years after jesus, the mother of the emperor constantine traveled from Istanbul to palestine to “re-establish” christian sites, under “divine inspiration”. She placed the “holy sepulchre” at the site of a pagan roman temple, even though it was way too close to the Temple Mount to have ever been used as a Jewish burial site in jesus’ time.
She placed the site of jesus’ birth in a cave in Bethlehem, rather than a manger. She also founded the city of Nazareth at that time. Other than the gospels, there is no mention of Nazareth ever existing before this in Jewish (Talmud, Josephus) or pagan sources.
The “last supper room” was built by the crusaders a thousand years after jesus. Three gospels say that jesus was crucified on Nissan 15, and the last supper was the Passover Seder the night before. But the fourth gospel (john), as well as the letters of paul, say that jesus was crucified on Nissan 14, and that jesus was already dead and buried at the time of the Passover Seder that night.
So why does “Jewish” Israel tolerate these pious frauds? Christian tourist money.
The Catholic church hierarchy is waging political warfare on the Jewish state.
@ yamit82:
Yes, I am in agreement.
The Vatican is political and like our own government there are those who stayed too long and are more self-serving.
I often complain about the Temple mount. This site rightfully belongs to the Jews and should be in their control.
Israel should take control, remove the rock throwing knuckleheads and picnickers and allow their people to pray there.
It is their rightful place to pray.
@ yamit82:
indeed so, yamit….
unless and until THIS internal problem is being resolved, any and ALL actions are just reshuffling the deck hairs on the titanic…
For the past few months I would read headline after headline and weep, as Canadian otter would say…….
rongrand Said:
Apparently not all religious sites are safe. Under the corrupt fools we have for leaders it’s obvious that Jewish sites are not safe for Jews like the Temple mount and Josephs Tomb.
I know your feelings on this and I know also it’s hurtful for you when your church is highlighted in such ways but truth is truth. The Vatican before being a spiritual entity is primarily a political one.
My upset is less with the Church than with the Jews here and in America. Nobody forced them to agree to let the Church in. Somewhere in all this darkness there must be significant payoffs for those agreeing to make the deal. Otherwise why would they do it out of sight behind the backs of just about everyone who has a vested interest in knowing the details and reasons?
Our corrupt leaders are far more dangerous than all the Muslims arrayed against us.
I listened to Paul Weston last night (“Politicians don’t recognize the Problem”, a few columns below – worth listening) and he called Tony Blair a traitor several times, for deliberately handing his country over to African and Asian migrants. ~~~ A couple of days ago the Pope acknowledged that there is a gay “lobby” (or mafia) at the highest levels inside the Vatican (in addition to mountains of corruption over the centuries, I would add). ~~~ These are two recent examples of an issue that is too common: the presence of corruption at the center of govts, whether those govts are good, bad or in between. ~~~~~ The erratic decisions taken by the Israeli govt over the years, starting with the surrender of Temple Mount and refusal to annex Jewish land after the 1967 war, may point to something more than well-meaning mistakes and miscalculations. I’m not accusing anyone of anything, but even good officials can be vulnerable. There are nefarious influences powerful enough to manipulate governments and direct policy, and Israelis need to be less trusting and more active in the defense of their land and heritage. Don’t be distracted by daily political games. Look at the big picture.
@ yamit82:
Unfortunately I believe this is not what Catholics as a whole want. I never heard any of my Catholic brothers or sisters complain about Jewish control over the sites.
The hierarchy of the church is made up of some old Europeans with a few left over anti-Semites.
If Catholics and other Christians are allowed to visit the various sites why is it necessary to have control over them.
I hope and pray the new Pope will put an end to this.
The present Pope who referred to Jews as our elder brothers.
We don’t need to create divisions amongst us.
All the religious sites are safe under Israeli control.
Exclusive: A Seat for the Pope at King David’s Tomb
Israel seems to have sold Jerusalem to the Vatican
Chamish – The Vatican’s Plot Against Israel
1-16-01
In March 1994, the newspaper Chadashot revealed a most remarkable secret of the Middle East “peace” process. A friend of Shimon Peres, the French intellectual Marek Halter, claimed in an interview that in May 1993, he delivered a letter from Peres to the pope. Within, Peres promised to internationalize Jerusalem, granting the UN political control of the Old City of Jerusalem, and the Vatican hegemony of the holy sites within. The UN would give the PLO a capital within its new territory and East Jerusalem would become a kind of free trade zone of world diplomacy.
Halter’s claim was backed by the Italian newspaper La Stampa which added that Arafat was apprised of the agreement and it was included in the secret clauses of the Declaration Of Principles signed in Washington in September 1993.
In March 1995, the Israeli radio station Arutz Sheva was leaked a cable from the Israeli Embassy in Rome to Peres’s Foreign Ministry in Jerusalem confirming the handover of Jerusalem to the Vatican. This cable was printed on the front page of the radical leftwing Israeli newspaper, Haaretz two days later. A scandal erupted and numerous rabbis who had invited Peres for Passover services cancelled their invitations in protest of his treachery. Peres reacted by claiming that the cable was real but that someone had whited out the word, “not;” the cable really said that Israel would “not” hand Jerusalem over to the holy pontiff.
More Background:
Peres Presses for Cave-In to Vatican?
(IsraelNN.com) President Shimon Peres is pressuring Interior Minister Eli Yishai to sign away six properties demanded by the Vatican, including Mt. Tabor and a church in Nazareth, according to IDF Army Radio.
The Vatican has long demanded that Israel give it these and other properties, while Israel has refused. With the visit of Pope Benedict XVI only a week away, tensions between the sides are rising.
Minister Yishai, of the Sephardic hareidi-religious Shas party, has thus far refused to give his approval – and staffers in the President’s office say they’ll seek a legal way to give away the areas without Yishai’s approval, IDF Army Radio reports. An official denial of the report has been issued by the President’s office.
Israel and the Vatican have been negotiating for more than ten years on various fiscal issues, including taxation of Church properties, the removal of certain areas from the pool of areas that Israel might confiscate, and the transfer of specific places to Vatican control.
The six places that Peres believes Israel should give the Vatican are: Mt. Tabor, Capernaum and Mt. of Beatitudes on the north Kinneret shore, and three churches: Gethsemane (Gat Shmanim) Church in the Kidron (Jehoshaphat) Valley between the Old City and Mt. of Olives, the Church of the Annunciation in Nazareth, and one in Tamra.
In addition, the Vatican demands control over the Last Supper Room in the Mt. Zion building that houses King David’s Tomb. The building was granted to the Diaspora Yeshiva over 40 years ago, and yeshiva heads fear that the Catholic Church wishes to turn it into a pilgrimage site for hundreds of thousands of Catholics and hold religious services there. Peres did not include this site on the list of those he feels Israel should give the Vatican. http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/131179#replies
Israel to Give Part of Mt. Zion?
Ten-year-long negotiations between Israel and the Vatican appear to be drawing to a close, with concerns rising that Israel will cede control of the building housing King David’s Tomb in Jerusalem.
The Bilateral Permanent Working Commission – a team of negotiators representing Israel and the Vatican – released an upbeat press release at the end of last week, speaking of “meaningful progress,” “great cordiality,” and a mutual commitment to reaching a final agreement “as soon as possible.”
Tellingly, a plenary meeting has been announced for this Thursday, April 30, at the Foreign Ministry. The meeting will be chaired by the two states’ deputy foreign ministers, Danny Ayalon and Monsignor Pietro Parolin. It is widely believed that the agreement will be signed then.
Church Demands Parts of Mt. Zion
The two states have been negotiating a treaty since March 1999 on matters having to do with Church-owned or Church-claimed property in Israel. Among the most significant issue under negotiations is the Vatican’s demand for the Last Supper room, located on the second floor of the ancient Mt. Zion building that also houses the tombs of Kings David, Solomon, and Hezekiah.
In addition, the Vatican is claiming areas around Lake Kinneret, as well as in Caesaria and Jerusalem.
Hints and implications in the Vatican and Catholic press have long indicated that the negotiations are expected to end successfully, from the Catholic vantage point, in time for Pope Benedict’s visit to Israel two weeks from now.
“This is a shame and a disgrace of unequalled proportions,” said Daisy J. Stern, M.D., who has been leading an information campaign on the topic. “Giving away these important areas has no Halakhic [Jewish lega validity, of course, but signing it away will definitely make it very difficult to ever reclaim them.”
More background
Wicked Plot To Give Away Har Tzion To Vatican
Wicked Plot To Give Away Har Tzion To Vatican
The Jews operating the Pave the Way Foundation desire to have part of the Kever David HaMelech (traditional tomb of King David) on Mt. Zion handed over to the Vatican. Currently, the building belongs to the State of Israel, but this group feels it should be taken away from the Jews and given to the Vatican. This is the very building where until the liberation of the Old City of Jerusalem in 1967, people migrated to pray as it was the closest location to the Western Wall. David Ben-Gurion planted trees in its ancient courtyard, Rabbi Yisrael Abuhatzeira (the “Baba Sali”) made a pilgrimage there and the place remains holy to Jews; yet, this husband and wife team that runs their organization from Long Island, New York are working to convince the Israeli government to transfer this building to the Vatican. As the husband has been knighted by the Pope, he can represent him to the Israeli authorities, some of whom he has met with previously, such as Chaim Silberstein, the chief of staff of the Minister of Tourism, and Director of Religious Affairs Gadi Golan.
Many in the Jewish community forget there is a well-crafted, strategically minded and highly funded crusade to convert the Jewish people, and the Vatican is conspiring in this cause. There is a secretive group called the Lausanne Consultation on Jewish Evangelism, which was founded in association with American preacher Billy Graham. The Vatican has participated in this conference, which strategizes on how to target the Jewish people for conversion. One of the Lausanne Occasional Papers stated that God has forsaken the Jews for not believing in the Christian scriptures and Jesus. Their statement is purely anti-Semitic, for what type of greater anti-Semitism exists than telling Jews that their God has forsaken them?
In 2001, the Vatican initiated a meeting among Christians who call themselves Messianic Jews. These people are part of the Presbyterian-funded proselytization movement known as Messianic Judaism, which is growing in Israel and remains problematic across the globe. Shockingly, Israel just issued the world’s largest messianic proselytizing group Jews for Jesus an amutah, official non-profit recognition from the government to operate in Israel. When The Passion of the Christ was released, it was met with criticism from Orthodox Jewish leaders in Israel and around the world. But even in the face of criticism, the Vatican thought differently. Reports released said the film portrayed the death of Jesus as accurate: “It is as it was.”
The Vatican consider themselves supreme rulers of the world, superior to all common people, kings, prime ministers and presidents. All that is missing is a title of power, and the Pope almost had that. Only a few years ago, the Catholic leader sought the ultimate authority, he was going to announce himself as the Holy Roman Emperor, reigning from the Urals to the Atlantic.
Just last month, the Vatican “graciously” opened its “secret archives”, which contain a large amount confiscated Jewish property. The repository will “loan” to Israel papers of Maimonides, which they have held captive since the 12th century. For hundreds of years, Jews have wanted these documents, among other items, but the Vatican has denied access to them. If the Vatican was intrinsically good, if they really wanted to make a gesture towards peace, they would hand over all of the Jewish material to the Jewish people. These games of “letting us borrow” our own materials is preposterous and juvenile.
I thought this issue was dead and buried but I should have known better:
Some of it’s recent past history:
Vatican’t by Ellen Horowitz
“The Times reported that Israel will hand over control of the reputed room of Jesus’ last supper, in a building on Mount Zion in Jerusalem. In return, a historic synagogue in Toledo, Spain, which became a church after the Inquisition….” (The Jewish Journal of Greater Los Angeles)
“Throw in a Mary Magdelen rookie card, and you’ve got a deal!”
some Israelis will sell their very souls in order to secure dubious diplomatic alliances, fill the nation’s coffers with tourist dollars, and to curry a bit of favor with the Pope.
“I find it upsetting that upon reporting the swap, the Catholic News, at http://www.cathnews.com/news/510/70.php, failed to make mention of the fact that the building on Mt. Zion involved in the purported deal not only currently houses a vibrant yeshiva, but is also the traditional location of the Tomb of King David.”