Shas paper against haredi draft: We’ll leave Israel
In editorial, Rabbi Moshe Shafir warns of ‘chaos’ and ‘anarchy’ in case IDF exemption for ultra-Orthodox annulled. ‘When there is no government, there is civil war,’
Kobi Nachshoni, YNET
The Shas daily “Yom Leyom” (“Day to Day”) has suggested some original ways to protest the government’s plan to draft yeshiva students, including leaving the country altogether and filing charges againt Israel in the International Criminal Court (ICC) in The Hague.
In a piercing op-ed published Thursday, the newspaper’s editor, Rabbi Moshe Shafir, warned of “anarchy” or “chaos” in case the haredim will no longer be exempt from army service.
“Not one haredi will enlist without the authorization of the rabbis. We’ll devote our lives to the Torah at any price,” wrote Shafir, a forefront Shas spokesperson.
In his column, Shafir warned of mass ultra-Orthodox demonstrations and said “lawsuits in the UN and the international courts, such as those filed by Israel’s Left, will be effective.
“Holocaust-type photos of dozens of children wearing yellow badges may even leave the last German submarine in the shipyard,” the rabbi said, referring to the sale of German Dolphin submarines to Israel.
‘Casualties on both sides’ (Archive photo: Reuters)
Turning to Israel’s secular community, Shafir warned that the haredim may resort to a “tax revolt” and launch strikes that will “make spaghetti of your country.” He also warned of a mass haredi exodus “which will gradually turn you into a minority in the face of an Arab majority.
“We will also make it difficult to realize your melting pot ideal – the prisons are already filled with Eritreans,” he said in the editorial.
Yom Leyom also criticized Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu for “lacking leadership” and leaving important decisions in the hands of “random teenagers.”
“When there is no (leader), there is no government, and when there is no government, there is civil war,” the rabbi wrote. “And in war there are casualties on both sides.”
Rabbi Eliezer Melamed, head of the Har Bracha yeshiva, suggested that the government exempt women from IDF service before recruiting haredi men.
“The interaction between men and women in the army is the main obstacle, and the leaders of the haredi public use it as the main argument (against the recruitment of haredim),” he wrote in a column published in the haredi newspaper Besheva.
“The army must prepare for the absorption of thousands of soldiers who devoutly keep the mitzvoth.”
The rabbi said that like other religious people, the ultra-Orthodox must also be offered tracks similar to the hesder yehivas that will allow them to combine army service with Torah studies.
Laura Said:
Your claim that Israel “cannot afford to keep half the population out of military service.”
What do you think the actual percentage of the population serving in the military has been until now? And what do you know of the bloated bureaucracy – on all levels – which the IDF has become?
Sure. Do you say the same about what Israel itself chose in following the peace process? Do you think that the military here, chock full of leftists like the ones who have led this country down the road of disaster, is not subject to the same misguided potentials in the military spheres, especially when it comes to doing what people like yourself view as politically correct?
My argument was from the Torah point of view of the negative effects of immense sexual promiscuity in the Jewish Nation’s army.
Our Haredim and Ultra Orthodox living in Israel do contribute to Israeli society through many of their self help charities and organizations like Zaka and Yad Sarah.
The Ultra orthodox took the brunt of the Scud attacks by Saddam and the two intifadas; They took it on the Chin during the 2nd Lebanese war as well in places like Safed and Acco.
You don’t live here have never served a day in the IDF and from your posts have never contributed to either other Jews or Israel in any meaningful way.
Who the Hell are you to criticize anyone here?
You, who consider himself an American Uber Alles, sitting safe and I assume comfortably in Mt. Horeb WI, USA?
Every Hared living in Israel is worth any number of your type.. Big with the talk but far away and safe. You call them scum? Apparently you believe you aren’t.
When you are living here assuming the same difficulties we have and the same risks then your opinions might have some validity and resonance.
@ Yidvocate:
First of all there should be no linkage to the Arabs serving in the military. Jews are obligated as Jews not just as Israelis citizens. When I say Jews that includes all diaspora Jews as well.
Joshua 1:8] THIS BOOK OF THE LAW SHALL NOT DEPART OUT OF THY MOUTH; BUT THOU SHALT MEDITATE THEREIN DAY AND NIGHT, THAT THOU MAYEST OBSERVE TO DO ACCORDING TO ALL THAT IS WRITTEN THEREIN: FOR THEN THOU SHALT MAKE THY WAY PROSPEROUS, AND THEN THOU SHALT HAVE GOOD SUCCESS.
Only the outstanding Scholars like the top 10% of the current Yeshiva student body should be eligible for deferments.
Prodigies in all fields are usually deferred from active military service as are married women etc.
There is a difference between Jewish obligations of military service in time of war than from a time of peace from a war of obligation from a war of discretion.
See: Milchemet Mitzvah
@ Bill Narvey:
Narvey I did not post Talmudic counter arguments many of the Hareidm base their rejection-ism upon. I don’t agree with them but they have a Halachic case.
It’s up to you to divine for yourself the facts of the matter which you have demonstrated both lack of curiosity and or intellectual laziness to find out and decide for yourself. I will not spoon feed you for everything you do not understand an are unwilling to learn.
Yesterdy while in line at our local supermarket the Chief Rabbi of our Town was behind me in line. He heard me speaking in Hebrew and asked if I were an an English speaker. I replied in the affirmative and he asked from where I originated. I replied” NY” He said he himself was from Brooklyn and there were not many English speakers in Town. I reminded him of the 3k Black Heebs we have here and he wispered that he meant Jews. I asked him if he was not aware of the plethora of Christian Missionaries in Town and he nodded in the affirmative. I asked what he ws doing about it and he shrugged but answered that if they were to move against them the secular press and their supporters would attack the Haredim for being Racists if not more and besides his time was full with Jewish mundane commitments like weddings deaths Mikvahs Kashrut etc.
I reminded him that while important they pale in significance to fighting off the Christians. He was ashamed and admitted that I was right. I did get an invite to Fri night Shabbat dinner at his home.
While I disagree with their position they do have a Jewish case that must be addressed and you can’t do that from ignorance of Judaism.
Your assumptions and concepts of what should be Jewish ideals, ethics and principles aren’t Jewish. Go and learn before engaging in such arguments.
Conscription of Haredim should not even be considered until and unless the Arab sector and all sectors of Israeli society are required to serve equally in either the IDF or National Service. To my understanding diligent Torah study is a legitimate form of National Service and should be recognized as such. The option should be available to all Jews. Halachacly, it draws Divine blessing and protects the State.
Where did I ever say I advocate the mass murder of Jews, Zelasko?
What I wrote was that if, as citizens of the State of Israel, any of you refuse to obey the same laws that require all other Jewish Israelis to serve in the armed forces of the Jewish state, then you should be expelled. The news article here indicates that some of those people do not even recognize the right of the State of Israel to exist. Which is exactly the position of Israel’s Arab and other Moslem enemies. Which makes them traitors to the Jewish state and to the Jewish nation, and they should be treated accordingly. As a matter of fact, I would not allow citizenship or even residency to any Jew who will not recognize the right of the State of Israel to exist.
My wife and I lived in Israel for some 18 months, which is far longer than most other foreign Jews who come there for study purposes at one of the big universities. Most of that time, we were residents of Jerusalem, and like any other free people with minds of our own, we reached our own conclusions regarding just about everything.
As or our own religiosity, my wife and I were married by an authentic orthodox Jewish rav, and when I feel observant, it is in a Lubavitcher shtiebl that I help make up a shabat minyan. We have no problem at all with religious Jews who also serve in Israel’s armed forces. They are heroes to us. The ones who refuse to serve, either because of their own cowardice or because they have allowed one of their black-hats to use them as bargaining chips for political power, to us are nothing but scum.
But I have no toleration whatsoever for any Jew whomsoever who sides with the enemies of the Jewish nation for purposes of embarrassing the Jewish state to give them personal privileges and advantages not available to any other Jewish Israeli. I know all about the day to day politics of Israel, Zelasko, and that includes the special privileges of all the yeshiva bocherim. So don’t even try to feed me any of your self-serving bullshit, as if that were not happening.
Arnold Harris
Mount Horeb WI
@ Arnold Harris:
Spoken like a true hater of the Jewish people. You sit in Wisconsin, with no knowledge or understanding of the issues involved but advocate the mass murder of Jews. You are most definitely from the insane ones. Would the murder of a few million Jews fill you with joy and a sense of accomplishment? Would it fulfill your fantasy of a new, cleansed world, free of the filth of Torah Jews? Others have and have had similar fantasies. May your lot be with them.
I have no sympathy whatever for that gang, who, in my judgement, are little more than a parody of the proud and rebuilding Jewish nation. When my wife and I lived and studied in Israel in 1973-1974, they acted out their role as the most purposely hateful Jews in all Israel. They also looked like freaks in their 17th century accouterments, and living in neighborhoods in Jerusalem such as Kiryat Ganz, from which vertually every growing branch of all the trees planted adjacent to the sidewalks by the Jerusalem municipality, had been stripped bare for this or that mitzva of religious observance.
To hell with them. If Israel could afford their loss — and maybe they can — I would let them follow through on their threats and expel them across the nearest border into the tender mercies of some Arab Moslem state. Nor would I allow any of them to return without taking a specific oath of allegiance to the State of Israel, and their agreement in perpetuity that they will serve the Jewish state with military service, perhaps with special arrangements so they could continue their yeshiva studies while in uniform. And if they cannot accept the national necessity of doing just that, then Jewish or otherwise, they are nothing but national rubbish.
Having been born and bred as a Jew in the United States of America, I freely acknowledged by duty at a certain age either to join the armed forces of the United States or to be drafted into the armed services through the Selective Service system. That didn’t make me any less a member of the Jewish nation, and service in the military of Israel would not make the freaks from 17th century Poland and wherever their folks came from, less of the Jews than they imagine they are.
Arnold Harris
Mount Horeb WI
No I don’t live in Israel and neither do most of the commenters on Israpundit. Again, what is your point?
My source for what? Since Israel itself chose to draft men and women, one can assume that the country itself believes this is good, necessary and correct for its army.
Again, what is the justification for discriminating against patriotic, qualified women in the Israeli army to accommodate Hereidi men who don’t even want to serve?
Laura Said:
Your source, please. But I suspect that Aryeh has got it right.
@ Laura:
That you know nothing about the military, refused to serve but feel fully entitled to comment on what is good, necessary and correct for an army. Not to mention projecting all sorts of fantasies onto other people. Do you at least live in Israel?
I haven’t. What is your point?
@ Laura:
How many years have you served in the military? What is your rank?
And if they should come under attack and can’t defend themselves, I guess that’s just too bad for them, right? Are Hereidi men not secure enough in their masculinity that they must control women this way? I could also ask the same of you. Perhaps they should work for a living instead of getting welfare, it might help them feel better about themselves as men. Take your sexism and get lost.
Israel is a very tiny country. It cannot afford to keep half the population out of military service. What is your problem? Women should not be discriminated against in order to accommodate the Hereidi who don’t want to serve anyway.
As a bit of general advise; if you have not lived in Israel for at least five years and have not studied in a Yeshiva for at least two years, you can not begin to understand the issues involved. You are more likely to have a clearer and correct concept of the workings of the Mars Rover than the issue of Hareidi involvement with the State of Israel.
The Hareidi community is approximately one Million people. It is about one Million people who fundamentally reject the legitimacy of the State of Israel. They recognize its reality but not its legitimacy. Since the creation of the State there has been an internal debate as to how to interact with the “Zionists.”
A minority chose to reject any relationship and keeps itself separate. This was the path of the Eidas Haharedis of Yerusaliim and certain elements in Bei Brak. The majority of Hareidim went with the path of Agudas Yisroel and choose to cooperate but maintain internal independence from the State as much as possible.
A frame work was created called the Religious Status Quo. This was seen by the sane elements of both the Secular and Hareidi establishments as a way for Jews to live in a reasonably harmonious manner in Israel. It has always been opposed by insane or treasonous members of both groups. It is an unfortunate reality that there are insane people who are will to murder millions to pursue their fantasies. They would of course refer to their fantasies as ideology or religious purity or whatever. But it would still be a fantasy they were willing to have millions murdered to enact. There are also these whose loyalties are not to the Jewish people and are always looking to ferment strife so as to weaken us and give our enemies a better possibilities to destroy us. The issue of Army service must be seen within this framework.
Yamit, your short answer to my questions based on what specific Talmudic and Halachic references you have made, is that you essentially agree with my first post.
In that post I derided Rabbi Shifer for not thinking and acting like a Rabbi, but as a politician. I further denounced him for I presumed that what he thinks and preaches on the issue of Haredim not being required to serve in the military in defence of Israel, is not supported by Halacha or Judaic principles and values.
In hindsight Yamit, rather then demand I provide proof of my assertions by quoting Halachic and Judaic principles, why did you simply not agree and offer for the educational benefit of all of us following Israpundit, that definitive proof that I rightly presumed existed?
My comment was:
@ Bill Narvey:
It is against Halacha to leave The Land of Israel:
The Rambam (Mimonides) writes:
It is forbidden at all times to leave Eretz Yisrael for the Diaspora except: to study Torah; to marry; or to save [one’s property] from the gentiles [lit. the worshippers of the stars and signs]. [After accomplishing these ends,] one must return to Eretz Yisrael.
Mishne Torah, Sefer Shoftim, The Laws of Kings and Their Wars, Chapter 5, Halakha 9.1
Maimonides continues in the same halakha:
Similarly, one may leave Eretz Yisrael to do business. However, it is forbidden [to leave with the intent] of settling permanently in the Diaspora unless the famine in [the land] is so severe that a dinar’s worth of wheat is sold at two dinars. When do these conditions apply? When one possesses financial resources and food is expensive. However, if food is inexpensive, but a person cannot find financial resources or employment and has no money available, he may leave and go to any place where he can find relief. Although it is permitted to leave [Eretz Yisrael] under these circumstances, it is not pious behavior. Behold, Mahlon and Kilyon were two of the great men of the generation [of Ruth] and they left [Eretz Yisrael] only out of great distress. Nevertheless, they were considered by G-d to be worthy of death.
Source for Mishne Torah, Sefer Shoftim, The Laws of Kings and Their Wars, Chapter 5, Halakha 9:
Talmud Bavli, Bava Batra, 91a, Our Rabbis taught: It is not permitted to go forth from the Land of Israel to a foreign country unless two se’ahs are sold for one sela’. R. Shimon said: [This is permitted only] when one cannot find [anything] to buy, but when one is able [to find something] to buy, even if a se’ah cost a sela’ one must not depart. And so said R. Shimon b. Yohai: Elimelekh, Mahlon and Kilyon were [of the] great men of their generation, and they were [also] leaders of their generation. Why, then, were they punished? Because they left Eretz Yisrael for a foreign country; for it is written, And all the city was astir concerning them, and the women said: Is this Naomi? What [is meant by] ‘is this Naomi?’ — R. Yitzhak said: They said, ‘Did you see what befell Naomi who left Eretz Yisrael for a foreign country?’
Talmud Bavli, Bava Batra, 91a, R. Hanan b. Raba said in the name of Rav: Elimelekh and Salmon and Peloni Almoni and the father of Naomi all were sons of Nahshon, the son of Aminadav [Sh’mot 5:23]. What does he come to teach us [by this statement]? — That even the merit of one’s ancestors is of no avail when one leaves the Land for a foreign country.
Talmud Bavli, Ketuvot, 110b,
Our Rabbis taught: If [the husband] desires to go up [to the Land of Israel] and his wife refuses she must be pressed to go up; and if [she does] not [consent] she may be divorced without a ketuba. If she desires to go up [to the Land of Israel] and he refuses, he must be pressed to go up; and if [he does] not [consent] he must divorce her and pay her ketuba. If she desires to leave [the Land of Israel] and he refuses to leave [the Land of Israel], she must be pressed not to leave, and if [pressure is of] no [avail] she may be divorced without a ketuba. If he desires to leave [the Land of Israel] and she refuses he must be pressed not to leave, and if [coercion is of] no [avail] he must divorce her and pay her ketuba.
yamit82 Said:
I fully agree.
Halachically, there’s no question they should serve in the army. Just look at the thousands of Bnei Akiva and modern orthodox who already serve. The issue is all about money. Haredim have been openly taking advantage of society and the government for years and now they’re angry because the gravy train will come to an end. If you force them to enlist, but compensate them financially, I’m sure their rabbis will find a “kosher” solution to the problem and will bless army service. As long as the Haredi retain some benefits above what their non-religious counterparts get, they will be happy.
On a separate note, I hope that the army forces the Haredi to interact with women. Maybe if they do, they’ll release some of that sexual tension that obviously has them so stressed out 🙂
@ Bill Narvey:
I asked you first!!!
But if you want some insight into my thinking and reasoning
Read: https://www.israpundit.org/archives/47577/comment-page-1#comment-177771
Read: https://www.israpundit.org/archives/47577/comment-page-1#comment-177742
Enough with your rhetorical B.S. questions Yamit.
Do tell us Yamit, as a self appointed expert on all matters of Judaism and Halacha, whether Shafir’s hardline intransigent position is or is not in keeping with Torah, Judaic principles, values and Halacha?
You say Yamit that you do not agree with Shafir. If you tell us that Shafir’s thinking and positions are in accord with Judaic principles and Halacha, can we take it then that you either disagree with what Judaism/Halacha holds and teaches or is it that you just reject those tenets of Judaism and Halacha that do not sit well with you.
So hochom, what are your answers?
@ Bill Narvey:
Tell us Narvey how a rabbi should act.
Why don’t YOU tell us what those values and principles are or should be?
Spoken like a lawyer making assumptions but not as a Jew with knowledge of Judaism and Torah.
Your arrogance is unbelievable.
I am not saying I agree with Shafir, but if you are going to challenge his positions you had better be on firm Halachic ground which you have no concept of.
The Mitzvah of Military Service: “Shall your brothers go to war while you stay here?”
(THIS COMMANDMENT INCLUDES ALL THE JEWS IN THE DIASPORA! 🙂 Haha.
Until those Diaspora Jews at least come here to serve in our IDF they should but out of our internal problem with the Haredim serving.
The Torah also makes clear that serving to protect and defend the people of Israel is equated with loyalty to G-d.
For example, when the tribes of Gad, Reuven and half the tribe of Menashe wanted to settle east of the Jordan River, Moses rebukes them because he thinks they are trying to avoid military service: “Moses answered the descendants of Gad and Reuven saying: shall your brothers go to war while you remain here?” (Numbers 32:6)
He goes on to equate the possible avoidance of military service with turning against G-d. He accuses them of being no better than the spies who forced the people to wander for 40 years in the desert:
“Now behold you have risen up in the place of your fathers, a brood of transgressors, to bring even more of God’s wrath upon Israel. If you turn away from Him, He will leave us in the wilderness and you will have destroyed this whole people.” (Numbers 32: 15)
Moses is not satisfied until he extracts a promise from the tribes of Gad, Reuven and half of Menashe that they will serve in war against Israel’s enemies
If Rabbi Moshe Shafir believes the issue comes down to the Haredim being prepared to devote their lives to Torah at any price and are thus prepared to do whatever it takes, like threatening demonstrations, civil disobedience and law suits to make that happen, it is not respect that Rabbi Shafir deserves.
Rabbi Shafir in saying this is not acting as a Rabbi. Rather he is acting as a politician who is intransigent in their position and agenda or a radical extremist leader of an interest group that will do anything to ensure whatever privileges and accommodations the government has given them, will not be lost in order that the interests of all Israelis can be better served.
Surely Rabbi Shafir’s Haradim position is not in keeping with the values and best of principles that Judaism offers. Thus by his premising his hard line position on devotion and presumably belief and understanding of Torah, Rabbi Shafir is deluding himself and seeking to convince his following to buy into and act on his delusion.
Surely within Torah and Judaism there are values and principles that command the faithful to compromise to a divisive issue so that Jews can be strengthened in unity.
Someone ought to figuratively pound that into Rabbi Shafir’s head and force his eyes open not only to see what Judaism teaches, but for him to see inward that what motivates him in his cause on this issue, are not motives Judaism and the good Lord will look favorably upon.
@ Paul:
Besides what I have stated in #10, the Haredi rabbinate do not want to risk losing control of their youth. I think in this their fears are justified.
The defense of the People of Israel and the Land of Israel should be considered according to Halacha; as an on going Milchemet Mitzvah (obligatory war)
In such a conflict according to Halacha (Jewish Law) everybody fights and no-one gets a free pass or is excused from serving and fighting, if required even women. This Halacha is so basic and important that it overrides every other commandment and Halacha including personal ritual purity and personal modesty.. re: separation of the sexes and their roles, not only in the general society but also in the military.
What is really at the bottom of the Haredi opposition is that they stand to lose $billions to their institutions and loss of many high paying jobs.
I have said it before and will repeat do not reduce their stipends and institutional budgets and most of the Haredi oppositon will dissipate.
Laura Said:
What non-combatant jobs can men not fulfill?
Paul Said:
For a good part of Israel’s history, women were separate and not in combat roles at all. In fact, this was true for many, if not most, western armies.
Paul Said:
Yes, they do, if they have no immediate need for them. As an example, the highly Torah observant women in Judea and Samaria pack guns when they travel. However, I would not peg them as Haredi and relatively few haredim live in Judea and Samaria.
It seems to me there is a civil defense aspect of this that trumps religious objections. The IDF is an intensely practical institution. Because conscription is mandatory, I’m sure that service has a technocratic, bureaucratic feel to it. But since Israel is such a small country and its threats are so immediate and day-to-day, how can the hereidi really expect that women not be trained to participate in armed defense of the country? Do the hereidi also restrict their women away from possessing and being trained in use of personal firearms?
Is it any wonder that the hereidi are resented in Israeli society. They wish to continue receiving welfare while not contributing to Israeli society.
They are going to leave Israel and file charges with the ICC? What miserable ingrates. What country do they think is going to accept them?
I now believe it would be a bad idea to draft those who obviously hate their own country. Israel is far better off with patriotic women who enthusiastically serve than accommodating Hereidi men coerced into serving in the IDF. However the Israeli government should stop welfare payments and force them to work.
Yes there is more to the military than actual combat. Which is why women are needed.
the phoenix Said:
Who denied their usefulness?! That is not at all the issue from a halachic point of view.
However, I can guarantee you that there are enough eligible males in Israel to fill all of the combat and non-combat positions in the IDF, which is bloated as it is with wasted fortunes on excessive
manpersonpower. The IDF even states that at present, they couldn’t handle all of the Haredim if they were drafted tomorrow.@ Shy Guy:
This is not a chauvinist question, but, there is more to an army than actual combat. With that in mind, could there REALLY be no use whatsoever for women ? Could there REALLY be no use whatsoever for MEN that are (through no fault of theirs) not ‘fighter material’?
Is that it?
It’s black or white? (i.e. ‘don’t confuse me with the evidence, my mind is already made up’)
I thought that it is proper for religious Jews to serve in defense of their country and their families. Seems to me this is not really a religious issue but rather one of corrupt politicians not wanting to give up their power and their funding from the Israeli government. A small but growing number of Haredi men and women are taking jobs and more Haredi men are volunteering to serve in the IDF. These religious extremists are giving Judaism a bad name and they are endangering the nation. Hopefully the government and the public will not be intimidated and Israel will emerge stronger and more united.
James B – Canada Said:
Quite the opposite. Women should be kept out of the army altogether, so as to enable a modest environment where religious soldiers – not just those thought of as “haredim” – can serve.
Rabbi Eliezer Melamed, head of the Har Bracha yeshiva, suggested that the government exempt women from IDF service before recruiting haredi men
Am I to interpret this that the young Haredi men should hide behind the women as do arab muslims? Actually the arab muslims use women as shields