By Ted Belman
The speech by Rev Hagee that I linked to yesterday under the title, Rev Hagee: “Appeasement is suicide on the installment plan”, attracted enormous interest and numerous heated comments. The Jews who commented either welcomed his support and that of his organization CUFI or railed against Evangelical Christians in general and Rev Hagee specifically for missionizing in Israel.
Those in favour know little about the missionizing that goes on in Israel or don’t care. Those against know a great deal about such activities and do care. That’s the divide.
Its imperative that those that embrace Rev Hagee and CUFI get up to speed so they have informed opinions.
The best source of authoritative information is Jewish Israel. It published in December of last year, Rabbi Grossman Battles Hagee Affiliated Missionaries, in which it went into great detail to describe the various actors involved with the intensive missionizing effort in Israel, including Rev Hagee. Yes I know that in his speech he disavowed efforts to convert Jews but did so only on behalf of CUFI, thus preserving the right to do it under a different banner. This article concludes as follows, (emphasis mine)
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Look at the path and read the “messianic” map. Even if a widely recognized and honored rabbi accepts humanitarian aid from the very best of evangelical pastors – with the finest intentions on all sides – it will nevertheless exact a cost in Jewish souls.
It is inevitable that without stringent counter-missionary legislation and enforcement, accompanied by ethical accountability and rabbinic guidelines; dependency on evangelical philanthropy will entangle Israel in an intractable missionary web.
Jewish Israel is fully aware that the Jewish philanthropic world is challenged at this time, and that turning to Christian aid is increasingly being considered as a viable, albeit complex, option. It is therefore obligatory that Jewish leaders, who do choose to engage in partnerships with devout evangelicals, admit to themselves and to their communities that they are by definition working with missionaries.
It must be acknowledged and considered that encouraging fundamentalist Christian political, economic and humanitarian involvement in the Jewish state will exact a cost in the form spiritual destruction and apostasy – shmad.
Furthermore, those Jews accepting Christian funding and assistance cannot expect or rely upon devout evangelicals to adhere to Jewish red lines in such a relationship. Sharing jesus is a Christian’s raison d’etre – especially for evangelical Christians. So, it is especially incumbent upon those members of the Jewish community who are embracing Christian support to rectify any consequential or “collateral” damage by calling for stringent counter missionary legislation and clear rabbinic guidelines – even at the risk of alienating “our best friends”.
I share this conclusion exactly.
Let me explain. Nowhere does it disavow Christian political support. In fact most Jews welcome it. The article focuses on the strings that will no doubt be attached, whether said or unsaid, when accepting financial support and pleads that “collateral” damage be defended against even at the risk of offending them. Note, it doesn’t suggest rejecting the money.
My position, often stated, is that the Christian support whether political or financial and Christian missionizing are mutually exclusive. The Christians support us (bless us) because Genesis 12:3 says ” I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse;”.
They will bless us regardless of whether we resist missionizing. They will also evangelize us regardless of our attemps to resist it. This has nothing to do with blessing us. From our point of view, ironically, it has more to do with cursing us.
Having said that it is not easy to draw such redlines when accepting financial support. Political support is something else. As Hagee says Christians and Jews and America and Israel have the same enemy and must fight it together.
All things considered, he is a blessing.
Who is “we”? Aren’t you a Methodist?
Wow!!! If I read my Torah, Tanach and other books of history correctly, I don’t think Christians invented the idea that there would come a Mashiach. We have ourselves to blame for this. They only confess that they believe that this Jesus, said to be of Nazareth (sorry, guys, his Greek name is used here just because it seems no one can agree what the exact transliteration of his Hebrew name should be)is this one chosen by the Name as Mashiach. Hey, as a Jew,I say, “You don’t believe this, great!!!” Follow Rabbi Hillel and “Do not do to others as you do not wish it done to you.” But also, as a Jew, I say, “You believe this, great!!!” Follow his teaching to “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.” We are a special people, set apart by the Name as vessels through which He will bless all of the people. It is very hard for me to see how this will be done by totally isolating ourselves from these same people. No man or woman or nation is an island unto themselves. We should be grateful for the gifts given to us, for the friends we have, for those with enough understanding to cultivate those who wish us well, and for the weapons we have (not all weapons are rifles, cannons, planes or rockets—the tongue guided by the mind is far superior to these weapons)to stand against our enemies. BUT, first and foremost, remember, “If the Name is for us, who can be against us?” Parenthetically, Yamit82, you are right that the Jews have outlasted many empires…show me where in history, even in our own history, it says we did it all by ourselves every time!!!
Matt, as an American nationalist as well as a Jewish nationalist, I think I understand your point of view about the defensiveness of many religious Jews regarding hopefully friendly and helpful approaches of Christians to help firm up support for the Jewish nation and its work to redeem and keep all the Land of Israel in the hands of the people who brought you Jesus to begin with.
But there are has enormous amounts of bad blood directed against our Jewish nation by Christians as well as Moslems over the past 20 centuries, and Jews as defense mechanism have had reason to keep all such people at a safe distance. And you have to ask yourself an honest question: Do you support the Jewish nation because you want them to live as the Jewish nation, or do you want to convert us all to this or that version of Christianity? You can’t have this both ways. It is either one or the other.
I think most of you mean well, and my sensibilities as an American Jewish nationalist are not as hostile as those you probably have uncovered on Israpundit. I sincerely hope you will not feel overly insulted by their responses. But you do understand, don’t you, that while we need your help and we are grateful for that help, if you smother with too much such “love”, you will reduce our ability to maintain a viable Jewish nation? Think on this carefully.
Arnold Harris
Mount Horeb WI
Okay, Yonatan. Your explanation and my re-examination of the issue of Christian targeting of Jews in Israel to convert to Christianity, are now clearer in my mind. So the matter is put to rest.
I maintain, as does Ted Belman, that the Jewish nation needs the friendship and active support of the Christian Evangelical movement; especially in the USA, where support of Israel among leftist and liberal Jews has shrunken.
But I also agree that there must be stringent limits put on the behavior of representatives of these and other non-Jewish groups proselyting among the Jews in Israel, “fishing for Jewish souls”, and the saying goes.
I think the Evangelical Christians, along with the Mormons and Southern Baptists I think are the most estimable of the right-wing oriented Christian groups in this country. I hope they win a lot of converts from dying Christian branches such as the Roman Catholic Church and the increasingly meaningless liberal Protestant sects. But I also want them to keep hands off the Jews, both in the USA and elsewhere. That’s in their log-term interest as well ours, in relation to their own own theology. After all, how can Jesus become King of the Jews if these people have made all the Jews disappear into various Christian sects? (I’m not certain how this last argument would play out with the Evangelicals, but its logic makes sense to me.)
Along with this, I think the only viable long-term defense against proselytizers targeting Jews is for us to organize and support Jewish proselytizers to target non-Jews. To no small degree, this is an advertising war. And its a war the Jewish nation cannot afford to lose.
I think the reason the Jewish nation did not actively do this in the past is because the Christian church leaderships in Europe right up until modern times, and the Islamic religious authorities in parts of the world they controlled, killed any Jews they thought were engaged in such activities.
But now, for the first time in 2000 years, the Jewish nation has police control over its own national homeland — or most of it, pending annexation of Shomron and Yehuda, re-conquest of Sinai, and conquest of Trans-Jordan. Which means WE get to call the shots of what goes on there, and anybody who doesn’t like those rules can boogie their way out through the nearest exit. “Power” is something you either use when you need it, or lose it to someone else.
Arnold Harris
Mount Horeb WI
Poor Matt! He behaves like a rejected suitor. If you believe in your god and our scripture Gen 12:3 and our prophets then you have no choice, do you? Unless you want to admit that your beliefs are transcendental.
We Jews will test your faith and lets see how strong they are. If you fail the test I couldn’t care less.
Jews can definitely be picky about their friends because so many groups are lined up outside the door just waiting to be their friend. Many Jews reject Christians because they are not perfect. Perhaps instead of complaining these Jews should find a way to make it work.
Evangelical Christians will support Israel no matter what. However, Jews in America don’t make it easy by being so anti-Christian, and liberal for that matter. As a Christian and conservative, I have to constantly remind myself to ignore the hatred of American Jews, and then support Israel anyway. Not always easy.
Good for you in your self confidence.
You are missing I think most of my objections:
Judaism is not a religion. Maybe reform cult is a religion but even they are insulted if anyone tells them they are not part of the Jewish nation. Lets put history of Jews and Christians aside and speak about What Jewish Law says. No pagan worship is allowed in the Land of Israel ergo no Pagans either. No Pagan is allowed to reside in the Land of Israel or own property etc. Some commentators allow for business and tourists of those Pagans passing through the land others say not even these exceptions.
While modern Israel is a western type of democracy Judaism is not.
Judaism considers Christianity pagan not because they believe Jesus was a prophet or some kind of savior /Messiah but because of triune belief.
Under Jewish Law the penalty for pagan practitioners and public displays in the Land of Israel is death. These restrictions and penalties are scriptural based. Since Israel does not operate under Halacha but under western democratic principles Christians are allowed in and little restrictions a placed upon them, for now. This has nothing to do with fear it has everything to do with Jewish law.
Mishne Torah, Sefer Shoftim, The Laws of Kings and Their Wars, Chapter 5, Halakha 12.
At all times, a person should dwell in Eretz Yisrael, even in a city whose population is primarily of worshippers of idols, rather than dwell in the Diaspora in a city whose population is primarily Jewish.
In that all who leave [the land] for the Diaspora is as though he worships idols, as it is says: They have driven me out today from dwelling in the heritage of G-d, saying, ‘Go serve other gods.’ [Shmuel I 26:19] Similarly, [Ezekiel’s (13:9) prophecies of] retribution state: They shall not come to the Land of Israel
The Jew living outside the Land, constitutes the worshiping of idols because doing so denies the foundations of the Torah, i.e., the enactment of the Torah, and the living by the statutes of the Law. The project of enacting the Torah can only be legally accomplished in the Land as defined by the Law.
If Halacha says this of Jews who choose to live in exile what do you imagine it says about pagans and their rights in the Land of Israel?
This is Judaism. If you are Jewish and are not happy about what Judaism is then I suggest you try Zen but you might not like them either.
In the Land of Israel we have every right to our own laws, beliefs , traditions and customs and if any non Jew is unhappy with that they can go shove it where the sun don’t shine! Enough of this shit already. I don’t dictate to anyone what they should believe, personally I don’t give a damn. I do care about Israel and maintaining not only our physical security but our moral purity and the purity of the Land of Israel This maintains and justifies us as a nation worthy of the mandate we were given by the almighty at Sinai.
We have a duty and an obligation to protect every Jewish soul from the corruption of anything alien and in opposition to the Jewish idea. We also have an obligation to our ancestors who stood tall even when put to the rack , burned at the stake and hung by their gallows and did not bend to the pressures to convert.
That’s the sum of my position.
Arnold – I don’t want you to go around thinking what I wrote was a joke either. If you go back and re-read the original where I quoted you and stroke through and replaced certain words, it says: “You can all think what you want about this CUFI phenomenon. What do they want? They want America to be as Christian as
wethey want Israel to beJewishChristian.” They being the key part of this thought, not you. So no, I was not joking, but if you read the sentence again you’ll see that what I said is the truth.I hope this puts the matter to rest for you.
For me the fact that evangelizing among the Jews is a bad idea is very logical and scriptural. Christianity is the worlds largest religion simply because Jews rejected Jesus. Without this rejection it would have remained a Jewish thing only. Paul tried always to go to the Jews first and after listening him politely for a while they threw him out. He had to go to he gentiles. And for that we are grateful. What kind of place would the world be if this never happened? It is also scriptural that God takes care of Jews when the time is right. And then we don’t have to second guess any more, either of us.
One Jewish covert costs Christians perhaps 100 times more than any other convert. It is simply a lot of effort and very little results. For these reasons I would not panic too much about the evangelizing efforts, it is not going to produce the results these missionaries wish or Jews fear.
Yamit and Islam have a lot in common – pure fear of anything that is not like them. To outlaw all other faiths and free expression of it is totally contrary to the whole concept of freedom and democracy. Is Judiasm that weak that it can’t stand up to someone sharing an opposing view?
What are we afraid of?
If we don’t belive our beliefs in Judiasm are strong enough to stand up against another offer than we really don’t have faith in our own beliefs do we?
Chabad proselytizes for their Messiah all the time.
Personally I have the ability to say no to their crazy ideas just as easily as to say no to Christian falsehoods.
SG & Yamit,
I never ever have written or said that the Jewish nation should ever permit adherents of faiths other than Judaism to proselytize among the Jewish nation living in the Jewish state. Does that mean I would clamp down on Christians, Moslems, Buddhists, Shintoists or Hindus who want to peacefully adhere to their relgious faiths while living in Israel, either as citizens, permanent residents, or visitors? Nor that either.
It’s just that I want the Jewish nation to have the exclusive right to determine the course and the future of the Jewish national culture, and the Jewish religion is a key part of the Jewish national culture. By now, most of you who read my stuff will have figured out that Jewish national culture is more significant to me than the Jewish national religion. But I respect the role that Judaism has played in forging the Jewish nation. And altough I don’t observe much the Jewish religious niceties, the ones that I do are strictly Orthodox Judaism. Because I don’t have much respect for the Conservative, Reform, Reconstructionist or other Jewish cults.
But having said all that, I still maintain that Christian Zionism, forged among the Evangelical Christians especially because of the dispensationalism they picked up somewhere along the way, is a good tactical connection for the Jewish nation. Do I imagine that connection will last forever? Of course not. Some time in the distant future, those good people will figure out that any earthly arrival of Jesus is neither forthcoming nor even predictable. Any more so than is the never ending expectation of the coming of the moshiach by the Lubavitcher chabadnikim.
In the meantime, we need allies, and these people can open doors for us all across the Evangelical Christian world, which is not just limited to North America or Europe.
Should we utilize the help of such allies? Unless you are idiots, you have to say “yes”. Should we allow them to subvert us? Unless you are idiots, you have to say “no”.
Simple as that.
Arnold Harris
Mount Horeb WI
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You said: Note, it doesn’t suggest rejecting the money.
My husband always asks me why I go to Israel, “all they want is your money”. He says, “they will take your money but they will not allow you
to live there. Seems pretty one sided to me.” I tell him I don’t care if it seems one sided. It is their land and they have that right, but
it is not like I don’t get anything from going to Isael, quite the contrary, I get what I go for- a chance to walk the land and take in all that
Isael is. For me that is enough.
Read more: http://www.answers.com/topic/nahmanides#ixzz1Awp3DZ9C
Isaiah (42:6) states,
“I, the Lord, have called you in righteousness, and will hold your hand and keep you. And I will establish you as a covenant of the people, for a light unto the nations.”
Christians? Naw!!
Now, if you obey Me and keep my covenant, then you shall be My special treasure among all the nations for all the world is Mine. And you will be a kingdom of priests and a holy nation to Me… (Exodus 19:5-6)
Christians? Naw!
EMPIRES AGAINST THE JEWS:
Egyptian Empire,
Chaldean Empire,
Babylonian Empire,
Greek Empire,
Roman Empire,
Byzantine Empire,
Spanish Empire,
Ottoman Turkish Empire,
British Empire,
Austro-Hungarian Empire,
German Empire,
French Empire,
Russia Empire,
Soviet Empire,
Nazi Empire
We will outlast the Christians and Muslims as well.
Nor a non-Jew, nor a rock, nor a cow.
Furthermore, the whole Jewish concept of a mashiach, a messiah, has everything to do with a human being and not with a divine pagan deity. And the mashiach’s task is just the opposite of annulling and voiding the Torah’s hundreds of commandments to the Jewish people.
Jesus, if he actually existed, was no prophet and the NT is book of fables, with plagiarized tidbits from the Tanach inserted to conveniently claim a legitimacy it doesn’t have.
I think it was the late Irving Layton (Canadian poet)who said that the reason Jews don’t believe Jesus is G-d is simply that a Jew would never believe another Jew is G-d!
As noted by Kenneth Sherman:
Layton “wished to ‘reclaim Jesus for the Jews’; he knew that centuries of Christian oppression in the name of a murdered Christ had made Jews less than hospitable to the very mention of Jesus’ name….Layton encouraged Jews to embrace Jesus as a Hebrew prophet and to see The Nazarene’s teachings as continuing the Judaic revelation that began with Moses and was articulated by such figures as Isaiah and Jeremiah. Further, Layton encouraged Christians to see Jesus as a living and breathing Jew. In ‘For My Brother Jesus’ Layton hoped that by addressing Jesus as Jeshua—the Hebrew name by which Jesus was known to his mother, father and disciples—the Son of Man would be humanised and Christians reminded of their religion’s Semitic origin. “
Because of John Hycranus We got Rome and Herod the false
Jew.
Seems Jews have always been nuts and slightly dysfunctional.
Bookmark 2 Corinthians 12:16:
“All right, then; I did not make myself a burden to you, but, trickster that I am, I caught you by trickery.”
Jesus the man versus jesus the god:
Conservatives rail against the muslim doctrine of taqiya (say whatever lies it takes to support muslims in the short term, and then revert to form when the muslims win).
But this same doctrine was first invented by the founder of christianity, Saul/Paul, who said he was “all things to all people”, and claimed to be a “learned Pharisaic Jew”, in order to gain Jewish converts, at the same time that he was a Roman citizen claiming to be the “apostle to the gentiles”.
In the current mode, where christians (including so-called “jews for jesus”) will say anything to get Jews to convert, their argument goes something like this:
1. Don’t you agree that the sayings of jesus the man, telling you to be a good person, were clever and profound?
2. If so, then doesn’t it logically follows that a) jesus was the messiah b) he is the man-god c) he is part of the three-in-one godhead d) he was a human sacrifice who died for your sins, and salvation can only come through him?
Of course, saying that it “logically follows” does not make it so. Jews do not believe that a man who declares himself to be the messiah, and then is immediately killed for saying so, was actually the messiah. Jews do not believe in the concept of a man-god. Jews believe that the three-in one-one godhead is polytheism. Jews do not believe that G-d demands a human sacrifice, and consider that to be a pagan idea. Jews believe that the all-powerful and all-knowing G-d Who created the universe, is smart enough to judge every man on his own merits, without needing the human sacrifice of the man-god to achieve personal salvation.
It’s one thing for christians to try to convert Jews through the truth as they see it, but it’s something else again when they resort to lies, trickery, and bribery to suck naive and gullible Jews into their trap.
That’s what this site is all about.
THERE IS NO DIPLOMATIC SOLUTION
Bravo!
Please paste a copy of your “DROP DEAD” letter to Hagee before you post it in the mail.
Thanks for finally catching on.
🙂
I want to keep Israel a strictly Jewish state the same as most of the rest of you, despite what Yonatan wrote in a comment in which he suggested, I suppose as a joke, that I wanted American Christian and Israel Jewish Christian.
What this means to me is real simple and straightforward. If any of our Christian friends come to Israel for purposes not of supporting the Jewish nation but of attempting to steal individual Jewish souls, then to hell with it. Just deport them. Politely, of course, but definitively. Their sponsoring groups in the USA, Canada, Europe or wherever, will instantly understand that the Jewish nation means business and that we intend for our nation to thrive, grow and remain Jewish in religion and culture.
And while I’m on this topic, why not start playing serious pay-back? They come after Jewish souls? Send out Jewish missionaries to go after theirs. I don’t give a damn about some rabbi saying this is an offensive way of treating our fellow human beings. Didn’t Avraham convert everybody in his wife’s family? I’m sure those of you who know the details of Tanakh a lot better than me, and are really hung up on this stuff, can come up with some solid examples of why the Jewish nation as a whole should start assaulting all the rest of them where it counts. If anybody wants to worship anything whatsoever in the way of a one-God universe, then why not opt for the original game plan and shuck off all the ersatz stuff that followed? After all, what is Christianity other than someone who had the nifty but weird idea that an ordinary itinerant Jewish preacher in the Roman imperial era not only was a direct son of ha-shem, but was also ha-shem himself, if I get Greek and Catholic theology correct? As for Islam, which certainly is closer to Judaism in its fundamental theology, what has that become, other than a vast new system of permanent slavery and frenzied hatred?
And while I’m on this topic, why don’t we unleash some well-trained Jewish Arabic-speaking missionaries loose on the Arabs who so want to live with you guys in the Jewish state? If that’s what they really want, then recruit them into real Judaism. The ones who are too offended by all this, just buy up their properties and let them boogie their way through the exit door.
Who would make sure our Arab converts to Judaism would not be murdered by their own people? That’s what the Jewish state has a Jewish police for, isn’t it?
What I’m suggesting here is that this all should be treated as part of a long-term strategic military and political campaign, along with our hopefully-incessant settlement activities.
Argue with me if you think I’m wrong about all this. But I sure as hell think I’m right.
Arnold Harris
Mount Horeb WI
Epiphany: so this is where Hillary Clinton got her fashion ideas from!
I’m not sure how many American Jews vote solely on basis of which party most supports Israel. Plenty of Left-leaning Israelis don’t seem too concerned primarily with that either. Perhaps it’s not fair to criticize evangelicals if they don’t vote solely on basis of what party most supports Israel. The priority for most Reform Jews and secular Jews (the majority)in both Israel and abroad appears to be domestic/ social justice issues. In fact, if support for Israel was paramount, American Jews would absolutely not vote Democrat and Israelis would not vote Left wing. Pres.Obama has shown his true political colors and Jews now know he does not have Israel’s best interests at heart, but is more sympathetic to Muslims and their interests.
A study that was reported in YNet and the Jewish Daily Forward found support for Israel declining among American Jews.
It’s important to me that Jews of all nations and Israelis understand the unconditional depth of commitment many Canadian conservatives have to Israel. Recently, Conservative Prime Minister Stephen Harper said this:
And not so long ago:
As an evangelical Canadian Christian, I will support the right of Israel to exist, to live in freedom and peace, no matter what restrictions Israel chooses to place upon evangelical “missions”, because as Prime Minister Harper said, “Not just because it is the right thing to do, but because history shows us, and the ideology of the anti-Israeli mob tells us all too well, that those who threaten the existence of the Jewish people are, in the longer term, a threat to all of us.”
I believe most evangelicals who support Israel would say the same. Our care and concern for you does not depend upon your like or dislike, acceptance or rejection of us.
Enjoy!!
Jesus He Knows Me
Talking to Jesus
Part of the problem is when Jews are looked at as a religion rather than a people. Gentiles expect Jews to be religious because of being deemed the Chosen Ones. When a gentile can look at the Jews as a people and be willing to agree to disagree on religion then thats progress. There is a book titled a Rabbi Talks With Jesus. An excellent read. In the book the rabbi explores the NT and gives his reasons as to why he rejects Jesus as Lord Saviour or King. ALL Christian and Catholic clergy should read this book. After all they are the ones responsible for teaching the flock.
Thank you BlandOatmeal for proving the point of this entire discussion – any of the Jewish audience out there have any further questions?
I think the dislike of Jesus crosses all Jewish political and religious denominational lines
Not all opposition to religious Evangelicals comes from the Jewish liberal left, there are those like me. Your adjectival descriptions belie your biases,prejudices and out and out Jew hatred. I don’t mind though every time a slime like you comments in front of Jews who don’t know any better we get stronger. The true face of Christian love and harmony. Keep talking your crap It’s music to my ears.
Excuse me BlandOatmeal, but you’re not Jewish, so obviously you can’t understand these concepts as a Jewish person would. Probably my mistake for trying to express innate Judaic ideas in a mixed forum.
Damn straight.
Let’s just leave it at irreconcilable differences.
But you sure do validate Jewish Israel’s position that “we best establish our diplomatic efforts and alliances on strategic, moral, and Judaic grounds, rather than any interfaith footing”.
Childers I got one better. No Christian Pagans allowed in the Land of Israel. All their edifices plowed under to rubble. Any Christians caught illegally here proselytizing will be summarily beheaded by any Jew witnessing the act.
No Christians allowed,
no churches allowed,
no Christian symbols allowed,
no Christian religious publications allowed.
Then I would block all Christian sites on the net in our domain etc.
Only from uncontrolled hysterical laughter over the utter stupidity of the gentiles who believe like you. satanic brain drizzle? Are you into comics fantasies? Or is that also from your Pagan Book NT?
In our millennial cosmic war as long as long as there are 10 male Jews over the age of 13 left, you lose!
Reform , conservative. Orthodox, Chabad etc rabbis all have the same first mission; money grabbers. Can you fund our agenda. Second, protecting their turf. Third, support our political agenda and in the reform rabbis case substuitite the Torah for Liberalism. Lastly, demonize anyone who ursurps their authority. Evangelicals do this across denominational lines.
The Jews that are worrying about American Evangelicals support of Israel are the same ones who despise conservatives, embrace liberal progressivism, secularism and never refuse an entitlement when offered. Jewish liberalism is the bane of Jewish conservatives, rational clear thought, denial of reality and an intense dislike for Jesus. Evangelicals believe the Jews are the “Chosen People” if only American Jews could believe it to.
Have i got a deal for you!!!!
Besides refusing to deal with the central message of Rev. Hagee the rabbis should due the following:
. block the web when it discusses evangelism.
. block radio and T. V. coverage when it discusses evangelism.
. block the news papers and magazines when it discusses evangelism.
. put a muzzle on all people when visiting Israel when they discuss evangelism.
I am fearful that when the rabbis read this post it will give them another satanic brain drizzle!
Hi, Yamit. You said,
I have never seen that statistic before. If 40% of billionaires in America are Jewish, they have escaped my notice. Bill Gates? The Waltons? Who are the Jews? Get out the Forbes list and show me.
John F. Kennedy wrote a book about Catholics in America, years ago. In it, he showed that Protestants controlled over 90% of our economy, and Jews only about 3% (which, at the time, was the same as the Jewish population here — making the typical Jew “middle class”). In my brief (about a year) participation in a Jewish synagogue a few years ago, I gradually became aware that most of the congregants, including the rabbi, were well educated; and that many were professionals and businessmen; but they didn’t seem to be the local business moguls. As I said, I’d like to see some statistics.
As for the “Evangelical” uproar, I usually read these things because it’s sort of fun seeing Jews get all excited over something. Face it: Jews don’t evangelize, and millions of Christians do. Jews have a reputation of being good businessmen, but they seem to draw a mental blank when it comes to applying simple business principles to their religion. I can’t watch a program on commercial TV that isn’t half ads; that’s because preaching works, because of which I have the latest news flash for concerned religious Jews here:
Did you get that, Yamit, Ted & all? Or do I need to explain further. Jews are not going to protect Judaism by “hedging out” the rest of the world. To put Quigley’s “ocean” analogy in a better light, you’re tyring to sweep back the ocean with a broom. Why not find out what your own religion is really about, and get as excited about it as the Evangelicals are about theirs. Then you won’t be spending your time kvetching like you (That’s “you” in general, Yamit — as for you personally, I think you’re more savvy than most about these things) are here.
Enjoy.
Have a Nice Flight, by Moshe Feiglin
Thanks Arno P many of us here in Israel, appreciate what many evangelical christians are doing to help and bless us at this time, when it seems much of the world is against us. As for me I appreciate this turnabout my many to be able to see that we are still important to Hashem, much anti semitism has come from christians in the past and we accept any unconditional blessing you offer. But no strings please!! We have been entrusted with the words of Hashem and though we have failed in many ways We have tried to be faithful as a people in this!! G
Ted,
I’d like to thank you for your thoughtful posting and attention to this entire issue. JewishIsrael writes hard-hitting and difficult reports because we want the Jewish people to grapple with complex issues in a profound way, and to use the kind of thinking and foresight that has sustained us as a people and enabled us to come up with redemptive solutions in difficult times.
I think assimilation is the bottom line here. All that’s left for many non-observant Jews in determining their identity is a non-belief in Jesus. That is the red line for those of our people who are ignorant about their faith. And it’s an incredibly beautiful line because whether one was raised as a Reform Jew in an open, democratic and assimilated society or had their heritage, rituals and traditions snatched from them under a Communist regime, they could still cling to three core Jewish principles:
• Be a mensch
• Say the Shema
• Don’t believe in Jesus
A significant number of “pro-Israel” evangelical missions and mega-preachers are currently focused on erasing that final line that unites all Jews. They are doing it by 1) promoting and establishing, in Israel, “messianic” congregations of “Jewish believers in Jesus” and 2) breaking down the theological barriers between the Christian and Jewish communities
When I was active in the Reform movement, I was concerned that Judaism had simply been reduced to Holocaust history and the birth of the state of Israel. Now that the Christians have asked for forgiveness for the sins of the Holocaust, are actively fighting anti-Semitism, supporting Israel, and fighting Jihad, what’s left to keep us from merging together?
We are talking about assimilation, Ted. And the secular culture in Israel – which is very anti-religious – is very vulnerable.
Idolatry for the Jew is such a sin that Rabbi Abraham Isaac Kook found a holy spark in Jewish heretics and atheists. In their denial of a Creator, they refuse to ascribe form to G-d or define His attributes and character in limited human terms. The heretic does not fall into the trap of creating a false image.
So on some level those deluded Jewish liberals and left-wing secular humanists who endanger the state of Israel have a special redeeming quality. Personally, I often wonder if on some esoteric and subliminal plane their aversion to the evangelical Right has more to do with their pure Jewish essence than their deranged politics. Perhaps the Jewish community’s failure to fully reciprocate and accept the outpouring of evangelical love has more to do with spirual self-presevation than any historical baggage or fear of Christian anti-Semitism. Just a thought…
I don’t call it a transformation. Rather I became more informed.
Laura,
some years ago Ted simply denied that Hagee is engaged in missionizing Jews at all. Today he admits it. That is an enormous trasformation from Ted’s side. Now I am awaiting your transformation which will hopefully come before the Mashia’h 🙂
An unsupported specious argument based on supposition,not on facts. I asked before can you demonstrate with evidence that after six years CUFI have supported and influenced the election of any senator or congressman because of the positions and voting records re: Israel? You yourself have posted articles and stated that the most successful and most powerful lobby in America is the Saudis. They don’t have 50 million supporters either.
As Daniel Greenfield once wrote the whole congressional pro Israel sham is just that. It costs nothing to a candidate of sitting member of congress to support empty non binding pro Israel resolutions or vote for aid packages tied to arms sales with The Arabs and Muslim Nations. Costs them nothing and they may even pick up additional Jewish donations and a few votes when the time comes.
The Embassy Law is a case in point. Congress looks good to the stupid Jews and have allowed the President to bypass the law every 6 months on waver. They have made no effort to amend the law in all these years.
Jewish Political donations are more important than votes of Jews. Those 50 million Evangalicls vote no diffeently than most conservatives based 100% on what is of a concern to religious consrvatives: The economy, anti obortion laws pro gay rights and same sex marriage, school prayer etc. I have never heard support for Israel as a major American concern when debating or choosing Americas representatives. West and a few others have made pro Israel statements but for the vast majority without a Jewish constituency Israel is not a factor.
If you can show me where I am wrong I have an open mind on the subject and am not against real genuine support from almost any source. I smell a con here and you and those who support CUFI have yet to demonstrate that CUFI is genuine and even effective based on their own stated aims.
That’s like saying Iran poses a greater threat to Israel than Syria therefore we should give Syria a pass in our defense doctrine.
It isn’t just their missionary activities or their successes and cost effectiveness of their efforts. Probably more Jews convert to Buddhism than Christianity but still many Jews do convert to Christianity, the actual numbers are less important than the money and effort applied against us and how they have corrupted the whole fabric of our political and social structure with enormous amounts of money filtered to our politicians, social institutions and charities.
Their aim is to subvert Israel from the Inside under the banner of support for Israel and it’s working.
Their game is to graft themselves into Judaism and Israel, to blur the lines of difference so that Jews will be more receptive to Christianity.
We know that’s your opinion. I believe your are not just wrong but 100% wrong. The difference between us is that I have an evidential case you have hope and supposition.
Of course we lose more through intermarriage and assimilation. That doesn’t mean we don’t fight other avenues that also cause loss. Intermarriage and assimilation are personal choices made by the Jew him or herself. If we could get them to move here, this problem would end. Proselytizing is an external force, however, and we can and should fight against it. Political support without proselytizing! If it has to come with the proselytizing – then they can keep their political support to themselves. We don’t need it, it is for their benefit to do it.
I don’t mind getting top billing but I just want to tell the folks at home that the christian post I responded to was also deleted by Ted.
I think we need some perspective. Having Hagee and CUFI support Israel is of enormous benefit to Israel. If he and his movement did not exist, it is quite possible if not probable that America would be little diferent from Europe in their constant attacks on Israel.
There is also no question that the evangelical movement is very large. But how successful are they when compared to the number of Jews we loose through intermarriage. I think the latter wins hands down.
It is far more important to Israel that Hagee supports us rather than abandons evangelizing.
I deleted a comment by Shy Guy because he was showing his disrespect for Christians. I want to build bridges not destroy them. I will make sure that any comments I find that are disrespectful will be deleted as I delete any missionizing type comments.
And so it has already chosen:
The World Evangelical Alliance (WEA) has launched a major campaign which defends the practice of EVANGELIZING THE JEWS
If anyone thinks this is some “fringe” organization, this is from the WEA’s website:
Thank you for confirming the threat. Yimach Shimchem Ve’Zichrachem.
I find it curious, all of your fears about the damage all these supposed hordes of evangelicals crawling all over every corner of Israel, are doing to Judaism.
I’m an evangelical. I serve on the missions committee of my very rich church. We interface with all the large evangelical mission organizations on a world wide basis. In my time on the committee, exactly one missionary to Israel has passed through our system. After examining her program, we determined basically, she was using her mission to Israel to just maintain a pleasant life in Israel with no real effect. While I am a little familar with Rev Hagee’s organization, his, is by an large a lone wolf operation. Trust me, American Evangelicalism has much larger resources than Rev Hagee has to deploy in Israel, if we so chose to..
There are many,many nations, which attract us as mission grounds before Israel. My personal belief is, Jews hold a special status with God, and we are not called to preach the gospel to you. What you chose to believe is between, you and God. You are intelligent, and a blessed people. You get to figure it out on your very own.
As for politics, Israel and the Jews are the key stone in the cultural struggle between Western civilization and resurgent Islam. Israel must be protected at all costs.
Arno P,
Jewish Israel has also reported on the other side of Christian friendship from Finland, and a number of Finnish groups continue to actively evangelize Jews in Europe, Russia and Israel.
Ted hasn’t made a transformation. He still supports Evangelical Christian POLITICAL support. This article referred to financial support.
Where do you get most Jews welcome it?
Certainly not most American Jews and 99% of Israeli Jews never heard of them.
A case can be made that since most non Evangelicals in America view them , lets be kind and just say unfavorably, their public support for Israel creates or adds to anti Israel backlash from the rest and a potential cause of antisemitism if not already a fact.
Jews nominal or otherwise make up 40% of all Billionaires in America, true most are totally assimilated but still ….. Jews need not have to depend on Christian money. Especially today.
ted, i state that you have made a clear transformation. a positive one. but you can still advance.
My past father in law was one of the first Christian pastors in Finland who started to talk about Israel and Jews in a new way in 60’s. Not as people replaced by the new “chosen people” Christians, but people who have eternal covenant with God. He was frowned upon since the only reason Christians were active towards Jews those days was to evangelize them. His opinion was completely the opposite. In his opinion it is forbidden for Christians to evangelize Jews. God is the husband, Jews are the mother and we as children have no right to teach our mother. This opinion is nowadays quite widely accepted and the only form of activity for many Christians is to support Israel unconditionally. As you may have noticed there was a rally of over 3000 Christians in Helsinki during the Mavi Marmara incidence when most of Europe was silent.
It saddens me when I see some of the posters with so much suspicion and even hate towards Christians. For those I just want to say that there are lots of us who stand by Israel because we owe so much to Jews and because we believe that God loves Israel forever. We have no hidden agendas, God will take care of His own people, there is no need for us to do anything but show our love and support.
CUFI’s Robert Stearns warns of Evangelical shift to the Left
Stearns, a regional director of CUFI and founder of Eagles’Wings Ministries,
He then went on to say that with all due respect to the great efforts of the Jewish community in America, he would argue that it is the evangelicals and the evangelical culture which is to be credited for America’s staunch support of Israel (for emphasis, Stearns repeats this comment later in his address – perhaps to stress how terribly dependent Israel is on evangelical support.) He illustrated how engrained evangelical religious culture is in America’s heart and background by speaking about Bill Clinton and the directives he received from his dying Southern Baptist pastor – never to abandon Israel.
[JI comments: 1)While a spirit of evangelism and a fascination with the biblical land of Israel can certainly be credited – to a significant degree – with the staunch support Israel has received from certain sectors in America, it is simply wrong for evangelicals to diminish or to try and supersede the great efforts and role played by the American Jewish community. 2) Stearns’ use of Clinton’s pastor as an example of the depth of evangelical influence tends to backfire when one considers the devastating foreign policy initiatives and consequences that Presidents Clinton and Carter (“America’s first evangelical president”) brought upon Israel.]
Stearns went on to say that evangelical Christianity is the only growing brand of Christianity in the world and that it is spreading exponentially in Asia, Africa, and Latin America.
And then he dropped the bomb…
[JI Comments: This writer addressed this exact issue in an article called “Theo-political Climate Change” written in September 2007. Rabbi Riskin’s wishful thinking of a new era in Jewish –Christian relations may be premature, as even his good friend Robert Stearns is feeling the potential chill.]
To combat the leftward trend and to ensure ongoing evangelical support Stearns suggested the following formula:
1) Seek out young emerging evangelical leaders and bring them to Israel at an early age (he mentioned how seeing Israel and praying at the Kotel had changed him).
2) Build bridges for travel and bring pastors to Israel (he mentioned how he had just sent a group of 130 pastors, whom he had traveled with, home. But before leaving they had signed a 3 foot high “covenant” of support for Israel).
[JI comments: With regards to point 1), The combination of dangling the threat of the new evangelical left over Israel’s head with the remedy of Israel’s needing to involve even more pastors and church leadership in the Jewish State sounds like it could have been a calculated move to advance Daniel Ayalon’s proposal of special status for the evangelical church (a main component of which involves longer stays and easier and additional visas for church clergy).
With regards to point 2), one would hope that the Jewish people value the quality of their covenants, not the size. It may be time to do away with mega mock-ups of cardboard checks and other such grandiose displays. By toning down the pretentiousness, we may be better able to judge the sincerity and intentions of the alliance]