Forty years on, Golda Meir’s post-Yom Kippur War testimony made public •
Golda Meir
Two months after the Yom Kippur War, when the country was still shell shocked by the surprise attack and the sense of terrible failure, a government commission of inquiry was appointed to investigate the preparations for the war and the measures taken to stave off the enemy during the first days of the war.
The commission was comprised of “big guns” and it was headed by former Chief Justice Dr. Shimon Agranat. Alongside Agranat were another Supreme Court justice, Moshe Landau, State Comptroller Dr. Yitzhak Neventzal and former Israel Defense Forces chiefs of staff Lt. Gen. (res.) Professor Yigael Yadin and Lt. Gen. (res.) Haim Laskov.
The commission met 140 times and heard the testimonies of 58 witnesses. It concluded that the various intelligence bodies had a lot of information indicating that there was a possibility that a war would erupt, but the final assessment, which was wrong, was that the likelihood of war was very low, due to what was known as the “conception” that the Egyptians and Syrians would not dare to even think about launching a war.
The commission blamed Military Intelligence chief Eli Zeira for instilling this conception among the decision makers. GOC Southern Command Shmuel Gonen (known as Gorodish) was found responsible for failing to deploy forces and IDF Chief of Staff David Elazar (Dado) was found responsible for a host of operational and intelligence failures.
On the other hand, the commission praised Prime Minister Golda Meir and exonerated the defense minister, Moshe Dayan, of all blame.
Meir resigned nonetheless, in light of the public’s deep rage and extensive protests. Elections were held and Yitzhak Rabin was elected her successor.
* * *
Excerpts from Meir’s testimony before the Agranat commission were made public on Thursday. The following excerpts have to do with the information that was or wasn’t presented to her by the heads of the intelligence services. Some quotes have been omitted.
Agranat: “This is an intelligence memo that was presented to Ephraim Halevy [then a Mossad representative in the U.S.]. Did anyone superior to the intelligence services see this memo?”
Meir: “We saw it around the time it was issued. It was on Friday [the eve of the Yom Kippur War]. It was at 4:00, possibly 3:00.”
Yadin: “At the time that this telegram was sent by you, did the intelligence services or anyone else bother you with anything urgent? Any other information? The problem here is that they [in the report] claim that it is only an exercise.”
“…I would like to read to you what the Military Intelligence Directorate received that day: ‘We learned that Syria has evacuated Soviet experts, and that planes have begun taking them from Damascus to Moscow. The same sources informed us that even the families of the Soviet diplomats have begun arriving in Moscow from Damascus. The sources added that the Syrians explained the evacuation by saying that Egypt and Syria were planning to wage a war against Israel. For your information.”
Meir: “I don’t know.”
Yadin: “The IDF chief of staff and the defense minister told us that on Friday evening they had not received such a telegram. Did you not get one?”
Meir: “No.”
Later in that meeting, the commission discusses certain intelligence information that was not handed over to the Prime Minister’s Office.
Meir: “It may be that the Military Intelligence Directorate did not feel obligated to share information with us, but it is very hard for me to understand how it wasn’t shared with the chief of staff.”
* * *
Meir: “On October 3, the chief of staff says ‘I surmise that we will receive word that they are planning to launch some kind of attack as a complete surprise. By surprise I mean that we will know 12 or 24 hours in advance. That is also a big surprise.’ Over the years, there was a notion that we might get advance warning 48 hours ahead of time.”
“I am glad at least about one thing, that on Saturday morning I decided to call up forces [the war erupted that afternoon]. Even then there were questions. There were doubts.”
“In April, when we thought there would be a war in May based on our intelligence, I was in the ‘pit’ [operations room]. I was presented with all the problems, possibilities, and everything that had been done.”
Agranat: “Did they present you then with the war plans?”
Meir: “Yes. When they talked about calling up troops … there was always the problem that the very act of calling up troops could itself expedite war. You may recall, in 1967, a man far better versed in security affairs than me — David Ben Gurion may he rest in peace — was very upset with the chief of staff for deciding to call up troops. He called Yitzhak Rabin and said very harsh words to him: Why did you announce a call-up? That was when the Egyptian army had been sitting in Sinai for weeks.”
“The fear is that if we call up troops, they will think that we are planning to attack and then they will attack. It is a psychological security thing that is always taken into consideration. It was also a consideration on that Saturday morning: Maybe we’ll do it anyway. And I, perhaps thanks to not knowing and a lack of expertise, said, let’s call up.”
Neventzal: “The question was how wide the call-up would be. You wanted a wider call-up and you made a decision.”
Meir: “Yes.”
Yadin: “Did you have a feeling, then, on Saturday morning, that there was any doubt regarding whether or not to call up troops?”
Meir: “There was still a feeling that it may still be possible to wait, and if we need to we can always call up troops on Sunday. The chief of staff’s argument was that if we recruit today, these forces will only begin fighting on Sunday, and if we recruit on Sunday, they will only begin fighting on Monday and we will lose another day. If I declare a call-up overnight it is better than moving them in the daytime. And in the absence of knowledge, I said, let’s call up.”
Yadin: “The argument was mainly whether to recruit four divisions or two divisions. My question is whether you had a [feeling] that the defense minister and chief of staff were debating whether to even call up the two divisions at all?”
Meir: “One of the arguments raised, rightfully in my opinion, by the chief of staff was that as long as we’re recruiting, and if they will say it [that we escalated the situation by the very act of recruiting] anyway, there is no real difference between calling up 70,000 [soldiers] and 120,000 or 200,000. If there is going to be an impression that we started the war, and the evidence would be that we called up troops, there would be no difference between 70,000 and a bigger number.”
Agranat: “Did that affect you? Did you accept this argument?”
Meir: “It affected me, though I was already in the kind of mood and the kind of feeling that short of a preventive strike, we needed to do everything that could be done. … Is someone going to go and count? If we are blamed [that the call-up sparked the war] and we say that we only called up 70,000, will they applaud us?”
Yadin: “There was a consultation between the defense minister and the chief of staff that morning at 6 a.m. There was already a disagreement between them on whether to call up two divisions or four divisions. Afterward it was decided, and the defense minister told the chief of staff: since there is a disagreement between us, I will present your views as well. But they both agreed that morning that at least two divisions should be called up.”
Meir: “Yes.”
Yadin: “We asked the defense minister and the chief of staff: since that morning at 6 a.m. you both had already agreed to call up two divisions, why didn’t you begin calling them up in the morning? True, it would have required the prime minister’s go ahead. So you pick up a phone. … We didn’t get an answer about that. That is what raised our suspicion, just a suspicion, nothing concrete, whether that morning you even had a feeling that anyone had any doubt regarding whether or not to even call up troops at all.”
Meir: “No. The chief of staff demanded four divisions, and he was adamant about it. If there was any doubt, it was the defense minister’s doubt that two divisions might be enough.”
“…We all know the defense minister [Moshe Dayan], he can be insistent. … He [Dayan] began and said: There is a disagreement between us. If you decide in favor of the chief of staff, I will not resign. That is not to say that he threatened to resign over every disagreement. … I told him: What do you want from me? I have to decide between you two on two divisions or four divisions. … I said it [Meir decided to call up four divisions] and that was that. He took it in his stride, but I felt that in his heart he was not convinced.”
Landau: “You overcame the American argument.”
Meir: “Yes. I had reservations only on one thing, and I don’t regret it to this day. I had reservations about launching a pre-emptive strike [the commission was referring to a provisional plan for the Israel Air Force to launch a bombing that would prevent the Egyptians from going to war]. I believe I said: My heart is very tempted, but I am afraid. I can’t prove it — no one can ever prove what would have happened if … — but I think that I can say with full confidence that had we gone with a pre-emptive strike when there was no clear assessment that they were planning to attack, I am almost confident that the ‘airlift’ [the operation conducted by the U.S. to deliver weapons and supplies to Israel during the war] would not have happened. The airlift didn’t go so smoothly.”
“I was ready to meet with Nixon”
Meir: “…On the second day of the war, I said to Simcha [Dinitz] our ambassador, when I saw that the supplies [from the U.S.] weren’t moving: Go and tell them that I am ready to leave the country and meet with Nixon incognito. Ask me now how I was thinking of doing it, I don’t know. It was out of desperation that I had to do something dramatic to motivate them. But I knew that at least it wasn’t the ‘you started it’ explanation.”
“I knew then, and I know now, that perhaps, maybe you can even say certainly, boys that are gone would have stayed alive. But I don’t know how many other boys would have fallen due to the shortage of supplies. I can’t say with 100 percent certainty, because I can’t prove anything, but other than that reservation, I can say 100% that the Pentagon, as I know it and judging from the trouble we had until we got the airlift, we wouldn’t [have received the airlift].”
Landau: “We heard the same argument regarding the call-up, that they would start shooting and say that we started. … We see that you considered it but got past it.”
Meir: “I am convinced that it was the right decision. … With all the problems, we got 736 airlift flights. … We got 26,000 tons of supplies. In that time, we got 40 phantoms and 53 Skyhawks. … The Phantoms could be flown over. The Skyhawks needed to be refueled three times on the way. Now that we know the circumstances under which these things were done, I don’t have any feeling that deciding against a pre-emptive strike was a wrong decision.”
“…On Saturday, at the cabinet meeting, when I said this, no one said anything to the contrary. At the Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee meeting that evening, no one said anything to the contrary.”
Yadin: “I want to go back to the issue of calling up reserves. … I got the impression that on Friday afternoon you had concerns about the situation. … On Friday, was there any thought about whether to recruit reserves forces on Friday or not because of the panic it would stir in the country?”
Meir: “I don’t remember exactly where I said that if we were utterly prepared and the war ended up not breaking out, we could live with that kind of disappointment.”
Neventzal: “The term ‘pre-emptive strike’ is a little misleading, because literally it means that it prevents war.”
Meir: “So maybe say ‘surprise strike'”
Neventzal: “If a pre-emptive strike would have accomplished that, the entire issue of the airlift would not have been that relevant. But apparently no one thought then, or thinks now, that it would have prevented the war.”
Meir: “If you read the minutes from Saturday morning, there was a kind of argument. We said no to a pre-emptive strike, but if the Egyptians start, we will strike the Syrians too, because we view them as one front.”
Agranat: “That is what you wanted to decide, but in reality you didn’t decide. The war broke out. There were those who wanted to delay the decision a few more hours. [Pinhas] Sapir for example.”
Meir: “Yes, but …”
Agranat: “And in the meantime, the war broke out.”
“I torture myself”
Yadin: “I am going to ask a provocative question, and I ask it because there was talk of this. I don’t know where, maybe in the press. Could it be that one of the prime minister’s considerations — I won’t talk about the defense minister and others right now — was the fact that we were on the eve of elections? We, the Maarach Party [the precursor of the Labor Party], have been saying to the public that it is quiet here all the time, everything is great, and suddenly we have to shatter that image? Was this problem ever a consideration?”
Meir: “My knowledge in Hebrew is not sufficient to find the diplomatic words to appropriately deny that claim. It is not just that it was never said in a hint of hint, but I am prepared to swear on everyone’s behalf. … It never crossed anyone’s mind. You could say that we were wrong, that we miscalculated, anything, but not that. [Elections considerations] — not under any circumstances. No one. “
Agranat: “Am I to understand that on the fifth of the month [October 5 was a Friday. The war broke out on Yom Kippur, that Saturday] you still had not decided whether to call up the reserves out of consideration for the Americans? … I am talking about the fifth of the month because on Saturday you decided on a full call-up.”
Meir: “Until Saturday morning, no one brought up the [topic of calling up reserves] — not military officials, not civilian officials, no one. Now two ministers are saying — one of whom wasn’t there on Friday morning, but his fellow faction member was there. Hasani [Michael Hasani from the National Religious Party] was there. Minister Warhaftig [Zerach Warhaftig, also from the National Religious Party. He wasn’t present at that meeting] told me later: If I had been there, I would have proposed [calling up reserves]. It is hard to say for sure. But the fact is that until that meeting at my office early Saturday morning, no one raised the idea of calling up troops. At least not in my presence. I torture myself over why I didn’t do it. But no one brought it up.”
“As soon as it was brought up, I had no doubt”
“…Until the very last minute we were still trying to follow Military Intelligence’s conception, that everything that was happening on the northern and southern fronts was a result of their fear of an attack by us. To try at the last minute through the Americans to tell the Russians, and have the Russians tell the Egyptians that we have no such intention. … We thought that at the last minute maybe we could still save. … For some reason based on what Keating told us [Kenneth Keating, who was, for a time, the U.S. ambassador to Israel], it would be at 6 p.m. At one point I said, maybe it was a misprint? Maybe he meant that it would be at 16:00 [4 p.m.]. … We thought that they would still have time to get the message to the Russians and subsequently to the Egyptians and Syrians, that we are not planning to attack.”
Landau: “There was a different idea, if you recall … that what could perhaps have prevented things — printing in the papers that Israel knows. Why was that not done?”
Agranat: “It was Shabbat already”
Landau: “But it could have saved time. We may not print papers [on Shabbat] but there is also the foreign press.”
Meir: “Apparently we didn’t think it would change anything. We thought that with diplomacy, maybe …”
Landau: “I haven’t seen any discussion of such an option.”
Meir: “No.”
“Low likelihood”
Meir: “Since the cease-fire in 1970, I have repeated my thesis dozens of times, in all kinds of forums, that I don’t accept the notion that we are in a state of neither peace nor war. … I said: As long as there is no peace, we are at war. … On Thursday evening I said: I can’t guarantee that it will be tonight, since it is not up to us. It is up to [Egyptian President Anwar] Sadat and he can give the order right now to start shooting. I had a feeling all those years that it might happen.”
Agranat: “I am just trying to understand the frame of mind. … I understand that one consideration, maybe the main one, was that they were afraid of us and therefore we wanted to communicate the message: know that we have no intention of launching an attack. But shouldn’t the other consideration have been not that they are afraid of us, but that they want to attack us and they want to take us by surprise? Or was the assessment that there was a ‘low likelihood’ as Military Intelligence calls it, meaning that it wouldn’t happen?”
Meir: “No, because though the Military Intelligence assessment was as it was — the conception. I am wary of speaking in front of two former chiefs of staff, but I think that the conception was that if the conscription army was on full alert, that means the air force, and additional units were called up and are there to assist — that is enough force to stave off …”
“On the day of October 5, the chief of staff said, and I quote: ‘We have taken all the preparatory measures. Over this holiday, the IDF has declared a state of high alert; all vacations have been cancelled on the lines.’ … That means that the conception was that blocking [the enemy] is a conscription army on high alert.”
dove Said:
What’s not to like!!!
@ dove:
You’re telling me!!!!!!!!dove Said:
@ honeybee:
Would they have to dye their hair? If the Israeli Jewish men are anything like the American Jewish men they seem to prefer blondes. Most of the voluptuous Jewish gals that I know are brown hair brown eyes.
@ dove:
Send nublle young ladies,Yamit 82 says there is a population problem,
@ yamit82:
Then get crackin’ yamit! Let it start with YOU! Get Israel ready so she is worthy to receive the rest of her nation!
Shy Guy Said:
No sharp point on this spear: http://youtu.be/z9frlVd0gYI
honeybee Said:
honeywannabee!!!yamit82 Said:
Have you ever been to El Paso? I swear every time I’am there,I see Moses coming over the barren mountains of Mexico. What would we do with Moses in the USA? The Evengelicals would grab him up before we got to him and you,well know, what missionary girls do with innocent Jewish boys. And,according to Exodus, he was “good to go”!!!!!!!!!!!!! Darlin
Been busy making Honey Cakes,cooled off enough so I can bake.
dove Said:
Two Torah scholars arrived in Babylon and told the Jews there, “if you detach yourselves from the centrality of Eretz Yisrael, you have no portion in the G-d of Israel!”
Read more at: http://www.jewishpress.com/blogs/felafel-on-rye/get-angry-at-rashi-not-at-me/2012/10/29/
Would American Jews Have Told Moses to Get Lost?
Read more at: http://www.jewishpress.com/blogs/felafel-on-rye/
Shy Guy Said:
Howie bald head blinded him!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Shy Guy Said:
I use a very long stick with a sharp point on the end of it!!!!!!!!
@ yamit82:
Sounds good to me!
@ Shy Guy:
@ dove:
Repentence as a Nation: The Key to Redemption Rav Meir Kahane, HY”D
“G-d demands that Israel sanctify His name first through complete and perfect faith and trust in G-d. They must take hold of dangerous, frightening mitzvot which leave them isolated and alone, with the nations opposing them, for only this can prove their real trust in Him. Then, when they have sanctified His name in this way, He will go forth in His wrathful revenge against the nations who profane His name, and will thereby save both Israel and Himself, so to speak.”
“Thus, complete and perfect deeds of trust in G-d sanctify His name, blot out the terrible chilul Hashem inherently associated with fear of the nations, and pave the way for majestic redemption “in haste”. What, then, are these deeds? I shall enumerate them, dear friend, and you should engrave them on your hearts and proclaim them loudly in the streets to the Jewish People, before G-d’s great and awesome punishment visits us, Heaven forbid!”
1. Those Jews who dwell in the impure exile, thereby scorning the Pleasant Land and its holiness, profane G-d’s name by their very habitation under the yoke and sovereignty of the nations. Through their dependency on the nations, they transform them and their false religion to masters over Israel, to whom Israel must lift their eyes. G-d will not bear this chilul Hashem. He will not tolerate the assimilation and the influence of the alien culture on Israel. These destroy their souls and introduce foreign thoughts into the Jewish People and their Torah. This conquest of Jewish bodies and souls is a chilul Hashem, and also prevents the Jewish People from being a chosen, special people who dwell alone in their holy, special land. G-d, therefore, decreed that Israel had to leave Egypt and go up to Eretz Yisrael, and that otherwise, it would be their burial place.The first exile is an omen for the last. G-d will not give in regarding Israel’s scorning the Land. When it comes time for G-d to punish the nations for their sins, raining down upon them His wrath, He will “turn their hearts to hate His people, to scheme against His servants” (Ps. 105:25). All this will be in addition to the tragedy He will unleash upon all Jews who live among the nations, when He takes revenge on the nations for all their sins through the collapse of lands and peoples. G-d’s liquidating the exile through Israel’s leaving it and going up to Eretz Yisrael is a major part of His removing the chilul Hashem and sanctifying His name.
2. The impoverished regime, whose conception and birth occurred in the alien culture of the nations, and who denies the Torah of Moses, has refused to apply the authority and sovereignty of the people and G-d of Israel upon all parts of Eretz Yisrael for fear of the nations. This constitutes a chilul Hashem, a rebellion against and degradation of the holiness of Eretz Yisrael, large parts of which have remained under the control of the nations. A condition for complete redemption through Kiddush Hashem is control and sovereignty of the G-d and of the people of Israel over all portions of Eretz Yisrael in our hands.
3. For many hundreds of years, Jews lifted their eyes to the Holy Temple, about which was decreed, “Any alien who comes near shall die” (Num. 18:7). Here was the Holy of Holies where only the Kohen Gadol could enter once a year. The presence at this site of impure Ishmaelite heathens who wholeheartedly hate the Jewish People is blasphemy. The impoverished regime is handing over to the impure Ishmaelites ownership and authority over the Temple Mount and simultaneously preventing G-d’s people, Israel, from ascending to the permissible places. Let all ears be spared hearing about this! For this shall Zion sit in sackcloth, in somber mourning. Could any chilul Hashem be more severe, more degrading? What can one say, knowing that the cause of all this is the heretics’ fear of the nations and absolute lack of trust in G-d? Israel are turning the Divine blessing and kindness associated with the beginning of redemption, which are a Kiddush Hashem, into an unprecedented nightmare, a sordid, abominable chilul Hashem. G-d’s wrath looms over us, and woe to the insult to our holy mountain! We bear a holy duty to remove the cursed Ishmaelites from the site of our Temple and to remove the disgrace of their mosques which daily anger G-d, if we hope to save our souls from the day of wrath.
4. The call of the hour is to “drive out all the Land’s inhabitants” (Num. 33:52). Woe to us for having dealt treacherously with the Land and it’s owner, G-d! Through our fear of the nations, we have refused to conquer the Land by banishing the enemies and revilers of Israel, the lowly Ishmaelites. How much innocent blood has been spilled in the Holy Land through murderers being allowed to remain in it!
G-d is imploring us, His beloved, chosen sons, to agree to accept what He desires to give us. The Messiah is knocking at our door, his footsteps can be heard in the streets, and the voice of the G-d of Israel calls: “Return to Me – the word of the L-rd of hosts – and I will return to you” (Zechariah 1:3). Hasten! Hurry! In glory! Today! At this very moment! “Today, if you hearken to His voice!” (Ps. 95:7). Yet if, G-d forbid, we miss our chance, and the moment arrives from which there is no turning back; if, Heaven forbid, G-d brings the last stage of redemption “in its time”, with Messianic birthpangs and tragedies the likes of which we have never known, then it will come, suddenly, out of the blue.
This is the choice, the only choice. All the rest is worthless and of no avail. Time is running out. The decision is in our hands.
–
Outta here. Bye!
@ Shy Guy:
What – that I said that it was up to G-d to come to us? It’s a two way street. Did G-d not come to the Israelites rescue? On more than one occasion? Even when they didn’t deserve it? G-d owes it to us to hear and answer our prayers. Good nite. It’s almost 3am where I live and I am going to bed. My opinion may be number 16 out of 12 of us in a room but I am not alone. Later gater…
dove Said:
It’s what you originally wrote. Don’t point fingers elsewhere.
@ Shy Guy:
So sorry that I don’t articulate to your satisfaction. Israel would not have survived up til now if it wasn’t for the collective effort of all Jews – including the diaspora. Many of us will stay. We want the world to know that Jews lived all over the world at one time so we will leave many graves to remind them.
I know our days are numbered here but it is better to keep as many vibrant Jewish communities all over the world for as long as we can. At least until we have some of the WMD issues more resolved. Why make it easy for the enemy? If we were all in one place it’s a no brainer that it’s an invitation for our distruction. It takes time to undo wrongs.
dove Said:
Nonsense! That is not to say that help from Jews is not appreciated but to say that Israel will not survive? Nonsense! And what does that have to do with the discussion at hand.
Besides, prediction: your time is running out anyway. Practice packing. 🙂
Why do you assume I don’t know? I have a great idea of the dozens of Israel advocacy organizations and what they do.
No. I do know. But again, on this point, who is arguing with you? You go girl!!!
Thank you but if you look at these words in your first comment, you made an absolute statement which is not the same as what you’re saying now and is still not correct. It is NOT simply “up to G-d to come to us”. That is the least preferable redemption scenario and we are and have been witnessing it for 2000-3000 years.
There are different ways to approach different people. Again, who’s arguing?! But that doesn’t change essentials.
@ Shy Guy:
Shy Guy said Implying that redemption is fixed and cannot be changed is purely christian doctrine. It has no place in G-d’s Torah
You are misunderstanding what I am implying. Any Jew can ‘opt out’ if they choose. G-d will not break the covenant for those who keep the covenant with G-d. G-d will welcome those back to the fold that have gone astray.
I witnesses this last year during the High Holidays….when the shofar sounded many of us got the same message. That G-d was asking us to reaffirm the covenant. That G-d wanted to be our G-d and that we would be His people. The Jews during Bible times chose G-d because they saw the power of G-d. We have to choose on faith. A big difference. Hard to do. Of coarse we would prefer an actual sign or wonder that the Christians claim they experience all the time. We would prefer that G-d was not so silent. That is normal. We don’t like silence. That doesn’t mean we will get what we want but it’s human nature. So we uphold each other by congregating together and helping each other out. Telling us constantly that we need to repent sounds too much like Christian doctrine and is not well received.
We are doers. We collectively acknowledge that we have sinned as a people. You know the drill.
@ Shy Guy:
And furthermore Mr Shy Guy you better start giving credit where credit is due. Israel is not going to be able to survive this without help from the diaspora. You have no idea how many of us are constantly holding media, organizations, law enforcement and government accountable when misrepresenting Israel. Many of us having been working tireless. Are we perfect? Hell no. Have we sacrificed a lot – oh yes – more than you will ever know.
dove Said:
Implying that redemption is fixed and cannot be changed is purely christian doctrine. It has no place in G-d’s Torah.
Simply read your Yom Kippur Machzor from cover to cover all over again. While you will find the majority of the prayers begging Hashem to forgive us, there is a not silent at all minority of the service where we tell ourselves what we need to do ourselves in order to find full favor in G-d’s eyes and be granted the benefits, personal and national, which we would deserve thereafter.
Simply read Rav Kahane’s article, which I linked to above.
Simply read the two Parshiyot of Rebuke in the Torah, the first at the end of Parshat Bechukotai, the second at the end of Parshat Ki Tavoh, read only a few week’s ago (did you break into the kiddush early?).
Read Masechet Sanhedrin 97:b about the major argument between R. Eliezer and R. Yehoshua as to whether redemption is at all possible without Am Yisrael repenting. While R. Eliezer capitulates to R. Yehoshua that it is possible, even R. Yehoshua does not advocate that this is the route to go. It is a much longer route, with consequences we have endured, Holocaust included.
As it has been always, it is up to us. We can make this simple or very very hard. We Jews have had a long taste of the latter. Read and follow instructions carefully.
@ Shy Guy:
I disagree with you. Perhaps saying finding G-d was a poor term. Since the holocaust the Jews have been discouraged as the persecution continues. We are human after all. Yom Kippur was packed and I believe most of the Jews were sincere. Man is harsh – much harsher than G-d. G-d will deliver us and exonerate us. If you want to call that Christian doctrine then so be it.
yamit82 Said:
On that point, I agree, although one never knows about the interim. Such were the times of Shlomo Hamelech, for example and even to a great extent the times toward the end of Bayit Sheini. The important thing is baby steps, moving in the right direction. Currently, we often dance in front of the princes of the world like this clown.
@ yamit82:
If the Jews had feared G-d, 3,000 Jewish lives would have been spared!
Do they still fear G-d? I don’t think Yom Kippur truly changed them. But we can hope!
yamit82 Said:
The Hebrew original says “nations” – Judaism in contrast to Christianity and Islam never envisaged a time when every one would become a Jew. There will still be nations and other peoples in the Messianic Age but they will learn from Israel on how to be ethical G-d-fearers. Nowhere do the Prophets speak of the world becoming Jewish.
yamit82 Said:
Nope, I look Sephardic!!!!!!!!!!! Winnick is Canadian.
@ honeybee:
Any physical resemblance?
@ yamit82:
My michodrial DNA: http://youtu.be/SCT8ggtGEug
@ honeybee:
vicious vikings
Hictorical Viking Wife Swap
ms Said:
Fear of the Americans is what prevented preemption. Nixons initial refusal to supply Israel after multiple pleas from Golda only only turned to a reluctant OK after American Intel noticed Israel arming Jericho Rockets. Fearing Israeli use of Nukes Nixon agreed to send Israel all that it requested and more. By the time the first resupply plane landed in Israel the war was over.
Golda Meir, fearful of the American reaction and procrastinating in the face of a Jewish holiday, did not preempt in 1973 when the Egyptian military buildup was unmistakable, though she could have deluded herself about its purpose. Compounding a grave error with a grave crime, Golda sent Jewish reservists to the slaughter, which resulted in 10,000 casualties—instead of employing nuclear weapons. Golda’s fear of world opinion greatly exceeded her concern with Jewish lives. That ugly character famously announced that she could forgive the Arabs for killing Jews, but not for making the Jews to kill Arabs. Likewise, her accomplice Moshe Dayan remarked during the early stages of the Yom Kippur war, “We’re witnessing the Third Temple’s destruction,” and reportedly was on the way to offer capitulation instead of nuking the Arabs.
National Security Archive:
The October War and U.S. Policy
Document 21B: Memcon between Dinitz and Kissinger, 9 October 1973, 6:10-6:35 p.m.
Source: RG 59, SN 70-73, Pol Isr-US
ms Said:
True that!!!!!!!!!!!
yamit82 Said:
The best version of the FUTURE: http://youtu.be/ArdKiaK5yxc
If Israel had preempted it might not have needed the airlift
NormanF Said:
Therefore tell the people: This is what the LORD Almighty says: ‘Return to me,’ declares the LORD Almighty, ‘and I will return to you,’ says the LORD Almighty.(Zechariah 1:3)
Ever since the time of your ancestors you have turned away from my decrees and have not kept them. Return to me, and I will return to you,” says the LORD … (Malachi 3:7)
“If you, Israel, will return, then return to me,” declares the LORD… ” (Jeremiah 4:1)
Is there a difference between finding G-d and returning to G-d? I think yes.
@ Shy Guy:
Not so Perfect:
There will be no need for diverse religions: “No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,”…(Jeremiah 31:34)
Shy Guy Said:
Not so Perfect!!
There will be no need for diverse religions: “No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,”
Future Promise:
T
@ dove:
Better version of the Future
NormanF Said:
Perfect.
dove Said:
On the contrary. It is you who has christian doctrine imposed upon Judaism – not Norman.
@ NormanF:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=PB61LSuMpt8
dove Said:
Read the Prophets! Is not the exhortation to find G-d and do what is right proclaimed there and that in the future age, the Jewish people will serve Him in the restored Temple and the nations will learn from the Jews on how to serve G-d? Hardly a Christian concept – its a very Jewish one indeed and the envy and the fear of the world over the messianic role of the Jews leads every one to hate them. Even in the Days Of The Messiah, there will be different religions but the Jewish people will become a role model for mankind.
dove Said:
I’m not preaching – even Jews completely alienated from G-d and Judaism still revere Yom Kippur. Jewish faith is at the heart of Jewish survival. Every other ancient people disappeared. The Jewish people are still here thousands of years later. All they have to do is embrace G-d’s gifts to be vindicated! Salvation will not come from the nations of the world.
this illustrates the extent towhich people invest in their fantasies and beleifs in the face of facts to the contrary. apparently it does not factor that it is “better to be safe than sorry”.
Everything is organized about beliefs as opposed to fact. Daily today we hear Israeli leaders dismiss the enemies with even more arrogance. They assume that the enemy will follow their reasoning. They are so convinced of their invincibility that it might again cloud their vision, hearing and reasoning.
We can see then as now that everything is determined by how the “other” will see it. If Israel thought less about whatt the “other” thought and did what logic dictated there would probably be no problems with the arabs now.
Jewish over thinking?
The americans will never allow Israel to win, only to keep the arabs off balance enough to depend on them. Israel is still busy building its future based on the Americans, in spite of all the evidence showing it’s a bad idea.
http://www.israelhayom.com/site/newsletter_article.php?id=11947
Interesting story showing the arrogance of allowing ones beliefs to color the facts. This arrogance appears to have characterized the 73 war leaders and we can see signs of the same arrogance today in the daily boasts of Israeli leaders.
@ NormanF:
What you are advocating Norman is a Christian concept. It is the Christians who need to ‘find G-d’ for too many of them are mixed up with false gods
@ NormanF:
Norman said And as long as the Jews hearken to the nations instead to G-d
Norman – stop preaching to us. You obviously do not understand the covenant we have. It is up to G-d to come to us – not the other way around. We will be vindicated.
@ NormanF:
Very true! We should also remember the treachery of Henry Kissinger in all this. Nixon was preoccupied with Watergate and Kissinger took charge. It was he who threatened Israel to not preempt lest Israel be abandoned by America to face Egypt and Syria who were backed by the Soviets. The implication was that to have U.S. support Israel had to obey America. Israel did not preempt, was attacked and began losing on both fronts. Despite obeying, Kissinger still refused to promptly help Israel because his secret plan was to ‘bleed Israel’ to make them completely dependent on the U.S. His plan was to then rescue both sides and show the Arabs that only the U.S. could save them from Israel thus weakening Soviet influence and paying for his diplomatic ‘success’ with Jewish blood.
He miscalculated and Israel almost lost the war. It was Nixon who overruled Kissinger and ordered the U.S. to begin a massive airlift to resupply Israel.
Kissinger then posed as Israel’s hero and fooled the stupid Jewish leaders of U.S. Jewish organizations. To this day the Jewish cowards and morons who head the American Jewish establishment never faced the ugly truth of how Kissinger betrayed Israel in an unnecessary war costing 3,000 Israeli dead.
Respect a nation has. It does not seek it from others.
After 40 years, there is good reason to doubt Israel has truly internalized the most important lesson of the Yom Kippur War.
And as long as the Jews hearken to the nations instead to G-d; as long they make common truck with their enemies and fail to drive them out from the Land – and they don’t redeem it – they will neither know true peace or security in it.
This is Israel’s tragedy! A nation that waits for others to do what it should do for itself will never be a truly great nation. As the Prophet Jeremiah advised the Jews millenia ago: “do not rely on Egypt; its a broken reed.” The same could be said of America today.
The writing is on the wall!
Cause and effect
Israel’s leader have always confused the two.