More than 50% of former Soviet Union conversion candidates drop out, according to Israel Democracy Institute report.
Over half of the conversion candidates from the former Soviet Union drop out before finishing the process, according to a report on the efficacy of the state conversion system.
The report, which the Israel Democracy Institute released Monday, illustrates what the authors have described as a “depressing” picture of conversion policy over the last two decades.
According to research by the IDI’s Dr. Netanel Fisher, some 80,000 people have converted to Judaism through the state conversion system since it was established in 1995. Of those, some 45,000 converts were from the Ethiopian sector – specifically the Falash Mura, who were required to undergo conversion upon entering Israel.
One of the particularly contentious conversion issues in the country relates to non-Jewish Israelis from the former Soviet Union, who number about 330,000 today.
Approximately 24,000 converts through the state system were from the FSU immigrant community – just 7 percent of the non-Jewish immigrants from that region.
Since 2000, that sector has had an average conversion rate of 1,800 people a year.
However, the IDI’s research also showed that the number of non-Jewish FSU immigrants embarking on the state conversion process was higher than the number of those successfully converting.
While those 24,000 completed the process, another 25,000 were accepted into and started the conversion course but eventually left.
Fisher attributed this high dropout rate to a lack of institutional support for conversion candidates throughout the process, along with various financial costs and logistical details such as long traveling distances to conversion classes for some candidates.
Some of the leading figures in the mainstream national-religious community seek to increase the conversion rates among non-Jewish FSU immigrants to prevent future interfaith marriages between them (or their children) and Jewish Israelis. To achieve that goal, these leaders have proposed liberalizing and decentralizing the state conversion system, within an Orthodox framework.
At the same time, more hardline national- religious leaders, along with the haredi rabbinic leadership, strongly oppose such measures. The haredi political parties have insisted, as part of their conditions for entering the coalition, that a recent measure the last Knesset approved to decentralize the conversion courts be repealed.
While about 25% of FSU immigrants express interest in converting, only 7% actually do so. According to Fisher, these statistics demonstrate the possibility of greatly increasing the number of those converting.
“Advancing the conversion of immigrants from the former Soviet Union has failed so far, because the national effort and the public discourse has focused on the politicization of the issue, while the path to success is really from the bottom upward,” he said. “That means… harnessing civil society into supporting converts, encouraging educational bodies to help open conversion classes, recruiting [conversion] candidates and elevating the issue on the list of priorities of communal leaders, who are not doing enough to change the situation.”
His findings indicated that although the national-religious sector views the issue as urgent, only 50 percent of that community is in favor of adopting a lenient approach within Jewish law toward converts from the former Soviet Union.
At the same time, he found, the vast majority of secular Israelis see the issue as important, want their children to find a Jewish partner, and support a lenient path to conversion for such people.
Fisher’s research also showed, however, that intermarriage between Jews and non-Jewish FSU immigrants currently accounts for 7%-8% of Israeli marriages every year. He said that the “guarantee of continued demographic existence of the Jewish people” could be in doubt if this trend is not addressed.
“The challenge of conversion in Israel is a challenge of historic proportions, and the way forward [entails] a variety of difficulties,” said Fisher. “The combination of a vision that can be implemented, appropriate leadership, allocation of resources, and recruiting civil society to the process could bring about a change that would guarantee the cohesion of Jewish society in Israel and the continued existence of Israel as a Jewish and democratic state.”
bondmanp Said:
this is a rdidcculous conclusion from what I wrote. I am not interested in changing orthodox judaism but I do not beleive it should be used as the exclusive sole factor to be applied to other Jews. However, I do suspect that orthodox Judasim may be mistaken and is not infallible even wrt its own interpretations. apparently they change their own mind when convenient. what was Judaism before the rabinnic era, is all that wiped out by the diaspora rabbi’s?
bondmanp Said:
my understanding is that oral law existed before the last 2000 years. the question is as to the decisions, conclusions, equality, methodology etc. Prior to the rabinnic era it is my understanding that Judaism existed. Therefore, those 2000 years are an add on.
bondmanp Said:
I am still waiting to see the meat of this challenge to which you refer. you call for the orthodox stream to determine who is a Jews for the state of israel but appear to know nothing about what that stream is arguing and how they arrived at it. You refer to a need for satandards of citizenship to the state but appear to be innacurate on what standard the state actually applies. Yu appeal to Torah scholars with name dropping but have no clue as to their actual arguments.
bondmanp Said:
goody, I am all ears to learn what they said and what your learned.
bondmanp Said:
I would have thought so considering how some interpretations exculde a number of Jews who would have been included under the criteria applied to ruth and her descendant David. Lets hear about some of this scholarly ink to which you were exposed.
bondmanp Said:
Ahhh. Lets hope you recived more than an impression when subjected to scholarly ink, lets hope you took away the actual “scholarly” reasoning which you can submit here as support for your views.
bondmanp Said:
Yes, I am aware of his fame. but hopefully you will go beyond name dropping to actually let us know his reasoning and arguments. Also, to let us know the significance in Judaism of a scholars conclusions, if there were disagreements with his arguments, and if all his arguments on all subjects were adopted as timeless law.
bondmanp Said:
hopefully you will move beyond name dropping, impressions you get and feelings of scholars.
bondmanp Said:
this must be the most vague statement Ihave read in a long time. I see that you never mention the actual reasoning of Rambam nor do you explain why you have subscribed to his reasoning rather than other rabbis. You also do not mention from where the concept of incompleteness and conditionality arose: did it arise from tanakh?
MY understanding is that is much “scholarly ink” from the rabbinic era which seeks to reconcile Ruth’s conversion with their halakik interpretations in order to “confer” legitimacy on the House of David. I also understand there are numerous versions in the BT and JT.
bondmanp Said:
Please show where, how, when Ruth “decided to complete her conversion” and how it was “as rigorous a process as Orthodox Judaism requires today”? As a Torah ignoramus myself and baffled by the seeming contradictions wrt Ruth coupled with its importance to this forum, I have decided to read up on it and have not as yet arrived near to these conclusions based upon the orthodox arguments which I have read so far. Perhaps as a self touted disciple and student of Rambam you can englighten me?
bondmanp Said:
Speaking of hubris I find it astounding that YOU feel no embarrassment whatsoever of the fact that you spent so much time dropping rambam’s name, referring to scholarly ink, etc but never had enough respect for your own sources to remember any of it beyond what your vague impression was. You suggest that I should study Rambam and yet YOU who pretend to cite his reputation as support for your comments cannot remember, look up or read about what he actually wrote.
this sort of superficial approach appears to dominate evverything you say:
bondmanp Said:
My understanding, and please immediately correct me for hubris if I am innacurate, is that the Law of the return which determines who is a jew for purposes of aliyah and citizenship is based upon having a single grandparent, mother or father which also appears to me to NOT satisfy the orthodox version of who is a Jew.
bondmanp Said:
I dont remember making a proposal but it appears that the state of Israel already applies a different standard for purposes of citizenship and immigration than orthodox judaism. I think you confuse citizenship of the state under law of return with other religious laws regarding marriage burial, etc. in israel. also, I beleive your confusion relates to the state reliance of orthodox certification for those being converted who do not satisfy the law of the return. This is a contradiction in that law of return does not recognize orthodox halachic standards in general.
@ honeybee:
I live in the real world HB. It doesn`t work everytime – it actually doesn`t work most of the time.
And of course you have your lingo and I have mine.
I am on her ignore list. I am actually either on the ignore list or hit list of most catholics and christians that I use to know.
Making good headway with the new ones tho- coming at it from a Jewish perspective in the first place works everytime for me. 🙂
dove Said:
Just say to her, what we say to “jerks”, in Texas. “Just bless yore lil’ole heart, Darlin” works every time.
@ honeybee:
You are absolutely right that the Jews are lucky to have us – even tho many don’t see it that way. If people like us had gone in the opposite direction we would seem like Hitlers offspring. Some treat us that way anyway because of our history, origin etc. I have no tolerance for it because I still have to deal with enough of that crap from ex family/friends….it’s heartbreaking. I just lost another friend I had for many years. She will not accept that I converted to Judaism. She is a replacement theology Christian and is having a hard time believing that J was not G-d nor a Christian. I have every right to state what I believe. I was hoping it would not end our friendship….but it did.
@ dove:
It is just that Darlin !!!!!!!! The Jews are lucky to have us, converts and half-breeds that we are.
@ honeybee:
I’ll take that as a compliment HB. Thanks bunches! 🙂
@ dove:
you poked a hole in his balloon and let a of “hot air” out. Good woman !!!!!!!!!
@ bondmanp:
With all due respect I really don’t think you need to be concerned about frivolous converts. Most of them have no interest in our homeland. What we need to be more concerned about are the non Jews that want to take over or destroy our homeland.
I agree that multiple standards are problematic. I feel that there ought to be a way to be sensitive to IDF soldiers who seek conversion while still maintaining halachic norms.
If stringencies for conversion were done with political motivations, I would agree that is undesireable. However, I allow that some stringencies might have been based on legitimate halachic concerns. Just because some rabbis are corrupt does not mean all of them are.
I spent one year in Israel as student, and lived in an apartment for most of it, rather than in a dorm with other students. I visit whenever possible, as I have many close family members who live in Israel. I don’t claim to know all the finer points of Israeli society, anymore than I claim to be an authority on Halacha. But I did not want some of these posts to go unanswered, since they seem to eminate from a “feel-good” version of popularized religion that is a severe distortion of normative Judaism. I regret that some here seem to think I wish to exclude some Jews from the Jewish Nation because of thier religious beliefs. I love all Jews, even if I feel that the religion they practice is not actually Judaism. There is a difference.
@ bernard ross:
Why do I post? Because I do not want readers to see your ideas go unchallenged. BTW, over the holiday this past weekend, the subject of conversion in the Book of Ruth did come up, and was discussed by people with far greater Torah knowledge than I. Apparently, there has been much ink spilled on the topic of Ruth’s conversion. The impression I got is that Rambam, who even secular Jews admit is a great scholar of Torah, felt that the conversions of Ruth and Orpa were conditional and incomplete. When Ruth chose to complete her conversion, it was just as rigorous a process as Orthodox Judaism requires today. My suggestion would be to set aside the Torah “authority” of the Algemeiner and study Rambam.
It’s not that I enjoy relying on the State of Israel when it comes to conversion. Only that some standards must apply. You have your standards, and I have mine. Suffice it to say that mine are more in line with the Rabbinate of Israel, and that is what is used to determine who can become a citizen of Israel, which is automatic for Jews. Your proposal would inevitably lead to a free-for-all for anyone who called himself a Jew to enter Israel and gain immediate citizenship. If you like Obama’s Amnesty, I guess that works for you. But Israel can’t hold the world’s Jews and still have room for tens of millions of quickie-converts. The government of Israel does not prevent freedom of worship, so non-Orthodox Jews are free to establish their own institutions. But what you propose is tantamount to demanding that Orthodox Jews accept non-Orthodox conversions. That’s not reasonable.
My Jewish heritage includes the entire Torah, both the written and the oral, as revealed on Mt. Sinai to the Jewish nation. The last 2000 years of rabbinic Judasim is included in the oral law. You either accept this on faith, or you don’t. Based on the date stamps of your posts, I see you don’t. That’s fine, but my beliefs are certainly as legitiamte as yours, and mine have a longer track record of survival.
I have never encountered kosher supervision by Neturai Karta. If I did, I probably would avoid purchasing products under such supervision out of protest, whether or not the supervision was reliable. Nor would I rely on helachic rulings of their rabbis. Yet, their rabbinic training could be very similar to the training of other rabbis who I would trust. I don’t rely on just any rabbi, Mr. Ross. Before I chose a rabbi to rely on, I did plenty of research and homework. And yes, this is legitimate in an age when one town might have many reliable rabbis. But once I choose a rabbi to rely on, I don’t shop around based on what answers to questions I desire. I stick with that rabbi and accept his rulings. Of course we are free to question anything, and I never suggested otherwise. But questioning is not the same as making your own halachic rulings. I don’t always agree with the ansers I get when I ask questions, but I accept them, since I know that I don’t know better than my rav.
Personally, I am against entitlements in general and in the State of Israel in particular. I would prefer it if most Israelis worked, and only a select few of exceedingly high intelligence and ability were subsidised to learn full time. But that’s just my opinion, and you know what they about opinions… In the bigger picture, this is a rather small issue. In fact, it is self-correcting, as the burden on wage earners exceeds the ability of working Israelis to pay for full-time learners in large numbers. I don’t know about you, but the last time I was in Hareidi neighborhoods in Israel, I saw plenty of Hareidim working in all sorts of jobs, menial included. Again, change comes slowly, but it will come. There is no switch to flip, Mr. Ross.
And your emphasis on public demonstrations rather than actual facts and statistics is getting tiresome. As I said, Hareidi Jews who live outside the Green Line do more to help Yehuda and Shomron than some protest marches ever could. Think about all the large demonstrations in Israel, for all sorts of causes. Did they really have any effect at all on government policy? What counts is voting, and the building up of communities throughout the land – all of it. In this, for whatever reason, Hareidim are becoming more and more involved. I am sorry it pains you so much to see respect shown to a great Torah Sage of our time on his passing.
Do you have any statistics to show what percentage of Ultra-Orthodox Jews “dance with Jew killers”? I am sure you don’t, but I bet the actual numbers would surprise by their smallness. Yes, they get a lot of press, which is their goal, and the delite of the leftist, anti-religious media. But trust me, their numbers are tiny, like any extreme fringe group. Yes, these groups cite Torah as their basis. Personally, I believe that is the greatest sin they commit. And of course they follow rabbis who support such ideas. It is detestable, but of no impact on my life whatsoever. They have no power to impliment their beliefs.
My point about Rabbi Glick is that people like him exist. They may not have large followings yet, but they are active in the struggle to attract more and more Jews to their cause. When I think about all the “orange youth” from Gaza 10 years ago, and the fact they vote now, I am encouraged and optimistic. In other words, we have a long way to go, but the trends in Israel are in the right direction as far as I am concerned.
Please, please look at JewishIsrael.org for more on the volunteer army concept. It makes very good sense once you look at the realities of the IDF today, especially the fact they take less than half of the eligable draftees each year, and there is a surplus of Israelis who desire to serve.
I don’t know how you can say an “overwhelming” majority of those attending the funeral believe anything. How could you possibly know this? For real numbers, look at the last Israeli election results. The total seats won by parties looking for entitlements and exemptions from military service were actually smaller than in the past. Although I can see how many Hareidim would not want to admit so in public, I think many are losing faith in the old system of entitlements, exemptions and being generally separated from the State.
Even if the Sanhedrin were reconstituted, I doubt that, based on numbers alone, the Neturei Karta would be invited to join, nor would they join if they were. And even if they did, their opinions would be only a tiny minority. I don’t know why you seem so threatened by a tiny monirity of extremists with no power and no influence on the Jewish nation. It would be like me constantly fretting over the Skinhead movement in the U.S.
I also find it dissapointing that you are unable to accept that some Jews might have sincere religious convictions that differ from your own. Again, that’s hubris. I don’t agree with the established Hareidi mind set, but there is a basis for it in Tanach, so I cannot state of a surity that they are completely in error. And comparing them (as opposed to some of the more anti-Zionist fringe groups) to Nazis is a line that you should not have crossed. You are accusing large numbwers of faithful Jews of not having love for their people. You cannot know what is in their hearts, and the actions of many Hareidim speak to their love for, not their hatred of, the entire Jewish people.
Actually, yes. David Hamelech combined amzing Torah learning with military service to the nation. I think the Hesder boys emulate his fine example.
I am not criticinzing you or anyone for asking questions, but rather for insisting that you know the definitive answers to the questions you pose, rather than just expressing your opinions. That is indeed hubris. That, and assuming your scholarship exceeds the scholarship of our sages, past and present.
@ bondmanp:
Bondman standards are acceptable. However the standards fluctuate between conversions in the IDF (which I personally find very reasonable and to the benefit of Israel and the Jewish people) and between what is applied outside the military.
When I first move to Israel in the 70s the conversions I saw happen were closer to what happens in the IDF today.
Some of Haredi rabbis made things more stringent to only allow new Jews who might vote for their political parties it appeared as time went on. Fluctuating standards and hypocrisy is what appears to me.
Bondman do you live in Israel or have you ever lived in Israel for an extensive period?
@ Bear Klein:
If you think that having standards that all can accept is somehow harmful to the Jewish nation and to the State of Israel, I must disagree. We are not talking about a theocracy here, but just as there are rigorous requirements for the admission to citizenship of any nation, so too, the Jewish nation must have standards. Feelings and emotions are irrelevent. If not normative religious standards, whose standards?
bernard ross Said:
But not funny.
@ honeybee:
verry amusing 🙂
bernard ross Said:
Bernard, the Israeli Army wears pants, even the girls.
What I find very shallow and unconvincing is when some people say to be part of the Jewish people you must practice the customs my particular tribe of Jews practice. Yet many of those Jews refuse to serve in the IDF to defend the nation.
When pressed by the rest of the nation who resent this shirking of equal burden some respond by saying let us have a volunteer IDF. This is suggested not because has been studied if it has a remote chance of adequately working to defend the Jewish State of Israel (which is highly unlikely).
This is a matter of convenience to justify shirking their responsibilities.
Israel needs Jews who share the burden and less those who try to impose their lifestyle on the rest of us. Those wearing knitted kipas are not less strict in the practices of the religion and yet are proud to serve and serve with distinction. They are also part of the modern world.
Israel needs reasonable conversion practices for those who want to join the Jewish people. Ruth is still the best example.
bernard ross Said:
It is interesting to note that the power of the orthodox Jews in Israel derives not from the assent of the majority of jews but with the authority of the government of israel. This is not dissimilar from the authority of rabbinic leaders in the Galut and roman conquest who needed the appointment or approval of the roman and galut authorities. a sort of “arrangement”
bondmanp Said:
then why comment here on this forum about the halakic issue of conversion?
bondmanp Said:
You appear to be the only orthodox Jew I know that is willing to rely on the gov for matters of conversion, who is a Jew an halakah. As for marriage, etc as in the days of the Temple, the saducees and Pharisees sat together on the council but apparently did not intermarry. Each sect can continue its own customs within itself. The state has already successfully defined for state purposes who is a Jew separately from the current halakic customs of the orthodox. In this they were able to represent more than one stream of Judaism without damaging the orthodox stream. Therefore, there is no reason to favor for state purposes one stream of Judaic opinion.
bondmanp Said:
Do you include all of Jewish heritage or just the last 2000 years of rabbinic judaism as your heritage?
bondmanp Said:
NO, you prefer for reason of personal loyalties and politics to ignore the behavior of a huge collective in Israel and the detrimental effects of that collectives behavior on the nation of Israel and the Jewish people. 950 k people could have changed the situation if only they had interests beyond their perks. When I saw the 950k I started to wonder what happened to them in the 10 years prior that I followed Israel news? I never saw hardly more than a couple of them for YS,Israel,the Mount… nothing like their protests in the thousands for perks and draft avoidance. You appear to want to ignore this as some small problem rather than as the huge gaping abyss it really is. You even gloss over the NK who cavort and dance with Jew killers and cite Torah as their justification. How can “True Torah” result in such absurdity of opposite claims? you feel ok with them in your midst, and feel that it is political but it is completely their interpretation of Torah, which they study intensely, which results in this aberration. it is not political, it is religious. their Torah tells them that the Jew killers are right, and that most of the Jews in israel are infidels, heretics, non Jews worth not even
the love they show to the Jew killers.
Do you accept their hechsher? do your accept their authenticity as Jews and rabbi’s?
pick a rabbi and get a hechsher 🙂
http://www.nkusa.org/
bondmanp Said:
Are you advising me like the NK “Jews” to select an NK rabbi to trust? Are you saying that I can pick and choose a rabbi like a chinese menue who agrees with me. Isnt that what the NK followers did when they cavorted and danced with the Jew killers? Is their rabbi kosher? Is he a sage? did his authority devolve from the commandments?
bondmanp Said:
the naturei karta dance with Jew killers for religious and NOT political reasons. They cite Torah for their behavior.
bondmanp Said:
How many of the 950,000 went with him on his protests? how many of the thousands who protested for their perks protested for YS or the Mount? It appears that they can protest or show up when it is important to them and in their interest.
bondmanp Said:
Obviously, I am not talking about a better solution for Israel. Israel has appeared to have already discounted their value to the defense of israel. they appeared to be paid to support parties who give them their perks.bondmanp Said:
are you being intentionally dishonest or did you fail to pay attention to what I wrote. I never spoke of all but obviously I referred to the overwhelming majority. You came up with glick, but few of the 950k supported him, yet they had time to protest by the thousands in the streets for their perks and draft avoidance.
bondmanp Said:
Really,my understanding is that the council of sages ended at the advent of the galut or soon after and that there is no single authority of Judaism since then. Under your claim does the NK rabbi sit on the council of sages, should I follow his Torah and go and dance with Jew killers? Does his idolatry of 18th century polish fashions authenticate his rabbinical interpretations?
bondmanp Said:
Of course they do, that is why they so enthusiastically protest in the thousands for their perks; their concern for service to the Jewsih people. Actually, many Germans in the 3rd Reich also viewed their activities as service to their people. Those who enjoy positions of authority and power usually tend to view themselves favorably.
bondmanp Said:
are your referring to the Yeshiva and IDF program? did David HaMelech attend such a program?
bondmanp Said:
For one who claims to know little about the basis of his own beliefs you appear to have hubris in criticizing those who ask valid questions. You actually have dealt with none of my questions. When did Judaism reject questioning of authority?
yamit82 Said:
My understanding is that the Sanhedrin has not existed since soon after the diaspora and that there is no one authority in Judaism. Furthermore, my understanding is that the believers in the equality of oral law and their opposition sat on the same sanhedrin.(saducees and pharisees).
yamit82 Said:
This is a description of the natural development of human political institutions. I see no reason to endow them with holiness. Do they err, do they make changes in their interpretations of G_Ds words? Did they make changes because G_D erred? The primacy of rabbinic authority, in my minimal understanding of history, begins with the roman conquest and grows to fruition, dominance, and sacred authority during the Galut. However, it is also my understanding that the religious authorities enjoyed under the romans and the Galut, a status of political power over the Jews that derived from the conquerors and masters as opposed to G_D. In fact, I don’t recall G_D talking to any of these during the Galut. The council of sages to which you refer contained both proponents and opponents of the primacy and equality of the oral Law, was that G_Ds will?
Also, it was, I understand, not until the Galut that the oral law was written into stone by the rabbinics.
Question: if G_D sought the equality and primacy of oral law why did he give it in a separate form from that written in stone? Did he err, was He in a hurry and forgot to mention to write it down? My logic is that he did it on purpose. An all knowing G_D knows that if you don’t want things to change, over years of communication of men, you write it in stone in simple instructions, like the written. If you give it orally then an omniscient G_D knows it will change. Therefore it appears that he expected and willed those laws to change under his own natural law. When it was written in stone by the rabbi’s the result was to elevate those who wrote it to a position of dominance and reverence, appointing them as the power over Jews. Hence, many self-proclaimed “True Torah” folk are able to interpret the Torah to say opposite things. Is G_Ds word confusing, contradictory, a peanut shell game? I think not, if there is contradiction and confusion it occurs when men enter the picture and take over.
yamit82 Said:
Where are the Sages today to which you refer and which sage do you follow: r. kahane or the opposite NK rabbi’s who dance with Jew killers? They cannot both represent the word of G_D. Is G_D out to fool you by presenting you with these choices? Are you picking and choosing from a chinese menu when you pick kahane instead of the NK rabbi’s? Which of them have been given G_Ds authority to interpret his words? Why did G_D stop speaking to the Jews in the Galut, the same time the rabbinics took over?
Today’s orthodox stream represents the conquest of one stream of Judaism which evolved from a tradition and custom of multi streams into a sacred unquestioned authority of a single stream which appears to change its mind when convenient. However, this ascendancy was facilitated through foreign and Galut non-Jewish authorities who appointed them or approved them and allowed them to decide Jewish religious matters.
This forum is about conversion and no one has answered the simple question of an ignoramus on Torah like me:
Why did the Rabbis change the process of conversion from the Book of Ruth and upon what authority? Was G_D wrong, were they wrong and corrected their error. It is folly to discuss conversion and ignore Ruth, the archetypal Jewish conversion NOT performed by rabbi’s.
Bear Klein Said:
It appears that BK has hit the nail on the head… rabbinic Judaism itself appears to be a tradition, a custom, of approximately 2000 years of the 5000. Not only do the customs and traditions vary today but also back before the Galut when there was a council of Sages.. The custom and tradition prior to the conquest and Galut allowed on the same council of sages those for the equality of oral law and those opposed. Hence, wherever the current tradition and custom changed a prior tradition and custom, or process provided by G_D (e.g. Ruth’s conversion), there should be discussion and evaluation of those decisions. Simply because one stream is ascendant and dominates at the moment does not enshirne them in a sacred authority. The choice between the conversion process demonstrated by the Book of Ruth and the rabbi’s is greatly affecting the Jewish people. As of yet I have yet to see an explanation which makes the rabbinical process of conversion sacred and superior to The Book of Ruth.
Did the rabbinic authorities belong to the council of sages set up by Moses, were they appointed or approved by non-Jewish authorities of the Romans and Galut, from where did they derive their power and authority if they needed approval from the foreigners?
I do not see how there can be any discussion of conversion in Judaism without reference to the Book of Ruth. The book of Ruth is the single, famous, archetypal conversion to Judaism not to be ignored. It was validated by the coming of David, the most famous King of the Jews. It worked, it produced David, why change what was given and worked?
How can the rabbinic authorities, who have only ascended in the last 2000 years facilitated by the foreigners, ignore the messages of Ruth, the facts shown in Ruth, and the validation of the positive impact of that specific process on the Jewish people as a whole by the gift and blessing of David, the most famous and perhaps greatest king of the Jewish people. The fact that the rabbi’s cannot come up with a system that works for the Jewish people that approaches that process revealed in Ruth simply demonstrates their inadequacy. Perhaps if they looked more carefully at what G_D did rather than at their own words they would see the efficacy of his work.
The elevation of men, their works, their interpretations, their decisions, their conclusions, to a sacred position equal to the level of G_D is a mistake. Men should always be ready to revisit their former conclusions to see if they erred.
@ yamit82<
Secular Zionist though I think myself to be, I could not avoid being positively impressed by this short video that you posted. Is the man providing the lecture the David Solomon referred to in the onscreen label? And where is he from? His accent sounds like that of my late UK-bred mother. But that could also describe the dialects of the Jews of Anzacland, Northern Ireland, and South Africa.
I must admit I had never before had any exposure to kaballa. What relation has that to Tora and Talmud?
Arnold Harris
Mount Horeb WI
@ bondmanp: Of course you are entitled and even welcome to your own opinion but imposing customs (which vary greatly among Jews) that you believe should be required is not acceptable to the majority of Jews in the world and completely ludicrous and harmful to Israel and the Jewish people.
Why be Jewish??
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MuDUmQd4Id4
@ ArnoldHarris:
bondmanp Said:
Well said both of you
Having read the main arguments on both sides of the issue of strict vs loose Jewish conversion standards, I have to ride with those presented by bondmanp.
I was born to a Jewish father and a Jewish mother. My wife was born with no religion whatsoever, because her mother hated the Roman Catholicism of her native Croatia, and had refused to allow her daughter to be baptized. My wife and I first began with a civil marriage, but that was followed immediately by her undertaking rigorous studies of authentic Judaism under one of the best Orthodox Jewish ravim of Chicago, Rav Aaron Rine of the Chicago Rabbinical Council. About a month before we started an extensive set of travels to which took us first to Croatia, then to Italy, and finally to Israel, we had an authentic Jewish marriage in Chicago, officiated by the same Rav Aaron Rine. I treated that as one of the high points of my life.
Mainly, I have been connected to Israel by ties of mostly secular Judaism, with the exception of the work I performed for the late and great Rav Meir Kahane. I learned from him that without authentic Judaism there really could be no such thing as an authentic Jewish nation.
An authentic Jewish nation is in the process of being rebuilt on the soil of Eretz-Yisrael. That will in fact be a very lengthy process, that of re-assembling the Jews from the many and scattered corners of the Jewish diaspora. And without commonalty of religious standards, Israel could in fact wind up with a Jewish version of the many sects of Christianity, or even worse, the never to be re-united Shi’a and Sun’a segments of Islam. Nobody but a fool could wish for that.
I have many problems with the black hats of Israel, as I call them. Among other considerations, I think all young Jews of Israel should be compelled to provide the same national military service, and for the same length of time, and with no exceptions. Their yeshiva studies could well wait two years. For that matter, if they are sufficiently dedicated to formal Judaism, they would still have enough time throughout the week to read Tora and Talmud. Indeed, they could be socially useful in uniform by introducing authentic Judaism to their fellow Zahal soldiers. In any case, if they are citizens of Israel, and as such, are privileged to vote for members of the Knesset, they should all be required to serve the State of Israel under equal terms. And those who refuse such service should lose their rights of full citizenship.
As for conversions, I would like to see all of them do so. But standards that are not upheld become meaningless with the passage of time. And I do not want those standards degraded. Because that would also degrade what my beloved wife undertook so rigorously in 1971, so that we could have an authentic Jewish family of our own.
And all things considered, I do not want and would grow to despise a supposedly Jewish population that would throw away the precious jewel of the authentic Judaism that provided the miracle of Jewish resistance to the destruction of our Jewish nation over some 20 or more centuries.
By the way. Secularist nationalist Jew that I am, my wife and I, along with our oldest son who lives with us, make a real Shabat at home every Friday evening, even if we no longer spend time with religious services at the Beit Chabad in Madison, Wisconsin, about a half-hour drive from where we live out in a rural part of our county and state. How many other Jews do that? Hopefully, many.
Arnold Harris
Mount Horeb WI
@ bernard ross:
Once again, Mr. Ross, that’s my point. You will not get me to post halachic decisions, because I don’t make them. I don’t reach halachic conclusions based on my own personal “observations”, whether I have studied the issue personally or not. If I want real, authoritative answers to halachic questions, I don’t post my questions on Israpundit. I ask my Rav. Since I am not terribly worried about the issue of conversion or patrilineal decent, I will not bother my Rav with such questions. My recommendation to you would be to identify an authentic halachic authority whom you trust and respect, and ask him your halachic questions. Resistance to this approach has caused great harm to the Jewish people. It is the hubris of the individual.
@ bernard ross:
Just as lowering halachic standards for conversion and determining who is a Jew would have no end, so too would be the application of political standards to Jews requesting Israeli citizenship. You might exclude the Neturei Karta, but, once this political standard was applied, where would it stop?
The system in Israel itself encourages ambition. Done within the bounds of Jewish and Israeli law, there is no crime in ambition. For those who violate either in their pursuit, I have no more sympathy than you. Do some of their efforts work against the best interests of the state and the Jewish people? Probably, but these are opinions. As much as I detest anti-Zionist Hareidim, they honestly believe that they are doing the right thing as they and their leaders interpret Jewish law. I believe that my own beliefs and the beliefs of those authorities I respect are instead what Jewish law demands. But I am humble enough to acknowledge I and they could be wrong. I will not behave as if I am wrong, but I would not presume to prevent others from behaving differently.
There are those who “dance with Jew killers”, as you say. I personally detest them, and perhaps, in certain circumstances, the state could charge them with treason. But, again, you are condemning all the leaders of the Orthodox world for the conspicuous bad acts of a relative few. The lowering of standards I referred to was the deviation from accepted normative Jewish legal standards.
You need to see authentic Torah leaders? You want individual names? I can start a list if you wish, but you can start with people like Rabbi Yehuda Glick. He is not alone in Israel, there are many like him.
If you want a conversation about the drafting of Hareidim, you need to consider all of the many nuances of that issue. Yes, there is cultural resistance to military service by Hareidim. Do you know why? It is not that they lack an understanding of the importance of the IDF. During the last war, many Hareidim travelled to the front to support the IDF and hand them food and other items. But there are issues of sensitivity to religious issues within the IDF that are legitimate and serious for people of faith. Religious Nationalists force themselves to deal with many provocations by secular officers in the military that are intended simply to offend and provoke. I commend them for their strength, but I wish that the IDF was more reflective of Jewish tradition and culture than it is. Are you aware that the IDF takes in only a fraction of the eligible draftees each year? They would not be able to house, feed and train all the inductees if they took all who were eligible. A better solution is a professional, volunteer army along the lines of the U.S. military. A volunteer army would be more accommodative to those with religious needs. There is more on this idea at http://www.JewishIsrael.org. Frankly, I think the whole draft issue is ridiculous, given the facts.
As for support of Yehuda and Shomron, I assume you are aware of the many Hareidi communities in places like Beitar Elit and Givat Z’ev HaChadasha. The Hareidim I know in these places are far too busy working, studying and caring for their families to go to any demonstrations, whether against military conscription or in support of Yehuda and Shomron. But, obviously, they believe Jews, including Hareidim, should live in Yehuda and Shomron, rather than abandon it. Demonstrations, in the long run, are pretty ineffective, while home building in Yehuda and Shomron is lasting, positive action with durable impact. And why you conflate the funeral for a popular rabbi with abandonment of Yehuda and Shomron, I will never understand. Your assumption that every one of the 950,000 attending the rabbi’s funeral are opposed to military service, oppose Israeli ownership of Yehuda and Shomron, and dance with Jew killers, is based on what, exactly?
And it is not they who are claiming to be appointed as Torah leaders. As other comments here have noted, that’s right there in the Torah itself. I guess that part will be left out in the New Bernard Ross Tanach.
What you probably will never comprehend is that, in their own minds, the Hareidim view their dedication to piety and study as being on par with service in the IDF when it comes to providing for the safety and security of the state. I don’t expect you to accept or understand this, but I agree that there is a symbiotic relationship between the IDF and the Torah community that relies on it for protection. That said, I view the Hesder world as the zenith of the authentic Jew. But there is plenty of room for all Jews in Eretz Israel.
@ bernard ross:
Yes, “elsewhere” are sites that are even further out on the fringe than DEBKA…quoting DEBKA.
Dandaman Said:
neither, but the better question is whose would you accept, and why ate do either have to be accepted? still an excellent question because the NK is probably considered acceptable and Jewish because they cite Torah for their authority
debka often carries disnfo, sometimes is right, but I thought I remembered reading it elsewhere, but perhaps they were the source of the”elsewhere” too
Who’s hechsher on a pound of chopped meat would you accept as kosher, an NK rabbi’s or Reform leader’s Rick “J Street”Jacobs. If Israel’s not careful that’s the choice you’re going to be left with. Oh and speaking of mishegas, That “report” from DEBKA about the destruction of Iran’s embassy in Damascus is still an “exclusive.” No one but DEBKA has ever heard about it, going on two days now!
bondmanp Said:
are you disappointed that you never saw the 950k demanding YS or the Mount?
bondmanp Said:
In the case of specfics I did not get any good answers on ruth or patrilinealty . My observation is that at one time it was different and subsequent rabbis decided to change it. did G_D err in his original approach that they needed to change it, or did they err in their original approach that they needed to change it? In either case there are unanswered specific questions which are not petty as these very specific questions exclude millions of Jews from the tribe at the behest of the orthodox. the fact that the orthodox dominate and survived is not a criteria of truth. the diaspora survived for 2000 years and yet its continuation is a is not a standard of truth exept with the likes of satmar and nk. As far as I can see the Book of Ruth created a standard and the same with patriarchal descendancy. the fact that the tribal elements wanted to say who comes in at different times, or did not have DNA testing, should not be accorded a status of papal infallibity as being the word of G_D. Sounds like the decisions of men to me
bondmanp Said:
are the teitelbaum true torah satmars and NK considered jews, would they be admitted under the law? Do you agree with it?
bondmanp Said:
Yes, and standards were chosen for the state and each stream chooses their standards. Perhaps I would agree with the “orthodox” running it but I see too many behaviors which tell me they might not be Jews but just those seeking status for advancement. Casting stones at other while acting against the Jewish people. Of course I have often been wrong in my observations.
bondmanp Said:
and what about NK… Let them both convert for their sects and stay out. the Jews are able to make intelligent decisions. I do not buy into the argument of “papal infallibility” for the Jews.
bondmanp Said:
I dont agree, look how the standard has been lowered by those who quote Torah night and day and have found in it support for their dancing with Jew killers and abandoning the people of Israel, and still perhaps they can be redeemed by changing their ways.
bondmanp Said:
On the contrary, it is you who keep coming back with generalizations. I deal with the specific behaviors that the collectives exhibit. Sure there are many exceptions, and I want theire to be more; I would love to see where those who propound torah are also automatically righteous men… they say they are and they say that the Torah says that they are the righteous ones… and yet, they dance with jew killers, spit on IDF women who protect their very sorry and undeserving asses, etc.
Here is my quandary on a specific level which you have not addressed except by using homilies and generalizations:
950,000 religious Jews attended the rabbi’s funeral, thousands have often protested in the street for their perks and for avoiding military service….. and yet….. in the more than 10 years that I have been following Israel I have never seen a more than minimal protest from that sector in support of Jews living in the Jewish homeland in YS, in support of the state of Israel retaining sovereignty over YS, in support of Israel retaining sovereignty over the Mount, in support of keeping the muslim defilers from abusing and harassing Jews on the Mount and at Jewish Holey sites and in the land of Israel. a population who can summon 950k could weekily protest in the 100k’s for these spiritual missions, they could weekly block the gates to the muslims to the Mount, they could sit in at the PM for a goal more than perks……..
they could be the ones who saves the land of Israel for the Jews….instead their only protests appear to me to be for completely selfish and self serving reasons which is usually the case with those who point fingers at others.
It appears that they leave the big missions to G_D and get out in the numbers only for their perks. However, they are good at quoting torah and telling us that they have been appointed by G_D in the Torah, so they must be right.
Please explain to me why those who tout their spirituality, those who tout their “Torah truth” , those that send their 950k to a rabbi’s funeral….. explain why in so many years they abandon Israel, YS and the Jews?
I calls it how I sees it and protestations that they are the appointed ones according to Torah are not enough for me because those saying the same and also citing the Torah dance with jew killers.
Perhaps they should look in the mirror and adjust their behavior, until then i do not buy their “spiritual” leadership.
@ Bear Klein:
Well said, bondmanp! Israel needs to steel itself against the infiltration of other ersatz Jewish “streams”who have already caused confusion, divisiveness and crushing assimilation in their headquarters in America.
@ Bear Klein:
I disagree, Mr. Klein. Many people of faith like me feel that compromises on issues of Jewish law and tradition do more harm than good to both Israel and the Jewish people.
@ bernard ross:
Yes, the government has long had laws covering who is a Jew. Admitting any Jew to Israel is a no-brainer. But what about converts? Israel offers much to people from less fortunate lands. Perhaps millions of non-Jews would gladly ask for a quickie conversion simply in order to immigrate to Israel and enjoy its economy and entitlements. Can you see why this might be an issue, especially during periods of widespread economic distress? So, then, standards must be chosen. The least complicated standard, acceptable to all, is the Orthodox standard. It may not please non-Orthodox and secular Israeli Jews, but none of them would suggest that a convert who had completed the rigors of an Orthodox conversion was not acceptable because that convert was not converted by a Conservative, Reform, Liberal or Reconstructionist rabbi. What about messianic Jews? Should they also be allowed to perform conversions for people who could then become Israeli citizens? Once the standard is lowered, there is simply no end to it.
I am disappointed by your comments, Mr. Ross. You prefer generalizations to assessments of individual character. Suffice it to say I am friendly with Jews of all stripes, from militantly secular-liberal to Haredi. Some are guilty of the faults you accredit to these groups, but many are not. You might be surprised to know that many think for themselves, even as they maintain loyalty to politicians, rabbis and other leaders. The problems you list are real, the generalizations of which groups make them worse or do nothing to improve these problems are not.
@ Ted Belman:Conversions were in the past much simpler at times in the past. Some of the Rabbis decided to change standards. A friendly conversion process benefits Israel and the Jewish people.
bondmanp Said:
I thought they already had done that for the purpose of citizenship.bondmanp Said:
I don’t: those who tout themselves as spiritual leaders of the Jewish people and then whose only enthusiasm arises when their perks, and avoiding the draft, are threatened, need to be informed. The humility to which you refer appears to have abandoned them when they throw stones at other Jews whom they regard as infidels. those who tout themselves as spiritual leaders and seek benefit from hard earned taxes of the Jews they despise must not be ignored. i see no light emanating from that source, and certainly no humility.
I am not hopeless because I believe that if the truth is spoken then things will improve. I would like to see a responsible religious sector not just a sector interested in its own benefit. It is the religous sector who should be leading the protest and battle of spiritual matters, not just the battle to maintain their benefits. it is not about the rights of Jews to the Mount but the removal of the Mount from the pollution of those who are allowed to ascend the Mount while abusing Jews. I expect that many Haredi beleive those Jews should be abused. they should then protest that the site be closed to all and kept under jewish soverignty. If they can get 950k to attend a funeral of a rabbi should they not take more responsibility beyond their own benefits. Certainly if they did there would be no problem with Jews in YS or the polluters on the Mount. I am not that interested in generic conversations that do not deal directly with specific matters. thank you for this interesting conversation.
@ bernard ross:
Just to clarify a few points, Mr. Ross. The “who is a Jew” problem is compounded with successive generations, as the original conversion point and the circumstances of that conversion become more a part of history than current events. So my own personal investigation might not be sufficient to determine whether a person is actually Jewish according to Halacha. I would need the assistance of rabbinical authorities, or the State.
As for my lack of discussion with you on halachic issues, you’re making my point. I admit that my level of Torah knowledge is so inferior to our current and past scholars that what I have to say about halachic issues is really irrelevant. I am not bothered by this admission. On the contrary, this perspective allows me to accord the respect and honor due to those who deserve it by virtue of their Torah knowledge.
The government needs to define who is a Jew because it is the basis for citizenship, as the law states. The other issues of conversion and marriage, again, become problematic for future generations. Even if I did not care about the authenticity of Jewish marriages or conversions, my grandchildren and great grandchildren might. A little humility now can go a long way towards helping future generations.
As for your criticisms of the Hareidi community, I prefer to commend what is positive (the showing of respect upon the passing of a great Torah sage), rather than focus on the negative (lack of support for the State and Jewish rights on the Temple Mount). No group of Jews is perfect; no group of people is perfect. But I do not seek to exclude any Jew from the Jewish nation. Even so, that does not mean that I am willing to abandon my religious heritage to those who seek to reinvent Judaism with each passing fad and generation. I have spent a lot of time in Israel, I have immediate family there, and I have to tell you, I generally see more harmony than discord, more common concern for fellow Jews than anger at their dividing aspects. If any Jew, religious, secular or Hareidi, can spend any time at all in Israel and come away without feeling like he has been at home amongst family, I think there is something wrong with that person. The issues raised by this column are difficult, but reasonable men will continue to work on solutions that honor both individual liberty and our Jewish heritage. It is not a hopeless situation, Mr. Ross. I am sorry that your own passions prevent you from accepting the Jewish nation and Torah as they are, rather than as you would like them to be.
And thank you for your thoughtful comments.
@ yamit82: I watched most of the video but couldn’t hear the last name. Didn’t recognize anyone. The parents who spoke were quite intelligent and funny.
Ted do you know the family of the groom in the clip they are from Toronto
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6ycHlK–6Q
yamit82 Said:
You bet they are!
Dicha of Deborah: ” If your a Jew you better be able to run fast”.
@ yamit82:
Dicha of Deborah: ” Who wants to join a club anybody can join”.
@ bernard ross:
I think most do, as do Imans and Druze clerics, might be some others to Not sure.
bernard ross Said:
Judges and Sages Commanded to Interpret the Bible
Moses was commanded to appoint seventy elders to help him rule over the people (Numbers 11:16).
There also existed a hierarchy of local judges over tens, hundreds, and thousands (Exodus 18:21).
Any case too difficult at one level would be passed on upwards (Exodus 18:26).
As in any legal system over time a body of precedents and legal principles developed telling in detail how the Commandments were to be put into practice.
[In point of fact most of the Rabbinical injunctions are hinted at in the written Scriptures according to grammatical niceties and quirks of the Hebrew Language. A good portion of the Talmud is dedicated to clarifying the Law according to what the Biblical verses indicate.
Even if this was not so however we would still be obliged to do as the Rabbis say.]
In case of doubt the Israelites were commanded to go to the authorities and Sages that would exist in their time.
[Deuteronomy 17:8] IF THERE ARISE A MATTER TOO HARD FOR THEE IN JUDGMENT, BETWEEN BLOOD AND BLOOD, BETWEEN PLEA AND PLEA, AND BETWEEN STROKE AND STROKE, BEING MATTERS OF CONTROVERSY WITHIN THY GATES: THEN SHALT THOU ARISE, AND GET THEE UP INTO THE PLACE WHICH THE LORD THY GOD SHALL CHOOSE;
In case of doubt concerning any matter of the Law and its practical implications one had to make an effort (“ARISE”) and go to the recognized authority that existed.
[Deuteronomy 17:9] AND THOU SHALT COME UNTO THE PRIESTS THE LEVITES, AND UNTO THE JUDGE THAT SHALL BE IN THOSE DAYS, AND ENQUIRE; AND THEY SHALL SHEW THEE THE SENTENCE OF JUDGMENT:
The Priests, Levites, and/or simple Israelite Judge, whoever was in charge at the time, would make the decision usually after consultation with the others and in accordance with accepted tradition and well know laws of logical deduction applied to Biblical verses and derived from them. This was the foundation of what later became the Talmud.
[Deuteronomy 17:10] AND THOU SHALT DO ACCORDING TO THE SENTENCE, WHICH THEY OF THAT PLACE WHICH THE LORD SHALL CHOOSE SHALL SHEW THEE; AND THOU SHALT OBSERVE TO DO ACCORDING TO ALL THAT THEY INFORM THEE:
[Deuteronomy 17:11] ACCORDING TO THE SENTENCE OF THE LAW WHICH THEY SHALL TEACH THEE, AND ACCORDING TO THE JUDGMENT WHICH THEY SHALL TELL THEE, THOU SHALT DO: THOU SHALT NOT DECLINE FROM THE SENTENCE WHICH THEY SHALL SHEW THEE, TO THE RIGHT HAND, NOR TO THE LEFT.
Even if one went to the Sages to decide how a commandment should be carried out and did not agree with what the Sages said you still had to obey them. This was the commandment.
[Deuteronomy 17:12] AND THE MAN THAT WILL DO PRESUMPTUOUSLY, AND WILL NOT HEARKEN UNTO THE PRIEST THAT STANDETH TO MINISTER THERE BEFORE THE LORD THY GOD, OR UNTO THE JUDGE, EVEN THAT MAN SHALL DIE: AND THOU SHALT PUT AWAY THE EVIL FROM ISRAEL.
[Deuteronomy 17:13] AND ALL THE PEOPLE SHALL HEAR, AND FEAR, AND DO NO MORE PRESUMPTUOUSLY.
The Ten Tribes were Exiled for Inventing their own Religious Beliefs!
@ yamit82:
do all rabbis get a salary from the state?
@ bernard ross:
Because there is no separation of synagogue and state in Israel. There is a ministry of religious affairs or there used to be and the Chief Rabbinate. In Judaism there is no separation of Synagogue and state and the British invented the institutions of Chief Rabbinate and paid them so the state continued the institution……Only leftists and American oppose this integration. most Jews here have no problem. I don’t have a problem today but I did when I first came here. It’s useful.