By Ted Belman
It seems the talks in Jordan are to continue past the present Quartet deadline of Jan 26. Obama wants the talks to continue for most of 2012 so that his opponents can claim he scuttled the talks.
Abbas allowed to meetings to take place even though his preconditions were not accepted. And the pressure is on Bibi to provide gestures.
According to Haaretz they include freeing Palestinian prisoners, expanding the Palestinian Authority’s control in additional West Bank territories, and other similar measures.
Bibi also wants Abbas to refrain from pursuing statehood at the United Nations.
The majority of the comments at Haaretz, are fed up with gestures and talks.
Bibi wants to be at the table because -let us not kid ourselves- it is Uncle Sam that is ultimately calling the shots. Forget the vaunted matter of independance and Israel’s freedom of choice. It don’t exist, it never existed, whether it was Nixon, Bush1, Bush2, Reagan, or who else was president of the U.S. Bibi may stall but no matter who is president in the White House, America’s interests are numero uno. Narvey, you are doing great work with your advocacy but you are only reaching the coverted who already agree with you wholeheartedly, thus, sorry pal, it aint worth a bag of assorted jellybeans.
Narvey , I was not talking about advocacy, I was re-asking your own question: “Why Israel still wants to be at the table” ?
If you don’t know guess. You mention geopolitical considerations and pressure which means nothing unless you can be specific.
So spoon feed me and we can have a discussion without the abstractions and generalizations. I’m asking for your analysis.
Yamit, do you really need to be spoonfed? I offered a general directional strategy pro-Israel advocacy might take and provided a specific example.
Stop asking me to spell out specific ideas that should be obvious to you, if you accept my proposed general directional strategy. If you don’t think my suggestion is feasible, why not?
Bill Narvey says:
Narvey I ask for insight and you repeat boiler plate talking points.
Back to your question and mine: “Why Israel still wants to be at the table” in view of all you have listed above and much more you didn’t hit on?
If BB and his predecessors didn’t want to be at the table, what is compelling them to want to be at the table? There are many ways to say NO, I don’t want to and decline. Yes the Americans can hold up the supply train but we receive our aid package up front in a single payment not broken up and if stopped Israel could go over the head of any president and yell Help publicly. That would certainly put to the test our friends gentiles and Jews.
What are you talking about here? Be specific…One can make a case that Israeli timidity and apparent appeasement, if not cowardice is what is spurring if not generating most of the pressure. “For what can be done against force, without force?” inquired Cicero more than 2,000 years ago.
Mollie-Yamit,Israel has always been on the defensive. Confidence building measures, a term coming out of the Bush administation and particularly their chief emissary to Israel and Palestinians, George Mitchell, has generally referenced reciprocal obligations on both Israel and the Palestinians, but has been specifically applied only against Israel.
Diaspora Jewry in particular have not been united in holding American Presidents and their administrations to account in that regard.
Indeed, leftist Jewish organizations have undermined efforts by conservative-right leaning Jews to hold America to account on that specific point as well as the many points conservative-right pro-Israel advocates have been making as regards Israel being held to the notoriously immoral double standard, that peace is being undermined by intractable Muslim-Palestinian-Arab Jew hatred, which fuels dreams for Israel and Jews being eradicated from the Middle East, Palestinians batting 1000 when it comes to honoring their word in the breach, the 2 state solution they say they want is not an end in itself, but would be a staging ground for the ultimate elimination of Jews and Israel from the Middle East, etc. etc.
We all know that geopolitical/economic realities, play a large role in moving the West to adopt positions that keeps Israel on a tight leash and powerfully pressures Israel to be constantly reacting defensively from being constantly on their heels.
Without a signficant change in the world geopolitical/economic landscape, Israel will continue to be pushed into a corner and on the defensive. Changing those realities is not within Israel’s power, at least not to any sigificant extent.
Finding ways therefore to have Israel be more assertive, heard and heeded must stickhandle around these geopolitical/economic realities and focus their advocacy/activist efforts on those smaller issues that have a greater chance of being heard because they do not conflict directly with geopolitical self interests.
For instance, there is so much information in the form of news reports, articles and videos that speak to the fact that the majority of the Muslim world are antisemitic and not just anti-Israel. Isolating this fact in pro-Israel advocacy from other issues, could gain more traction in world opinion. If that fact can be hammered home and appreciated by far more people, those people more likely would themselves include that fact in their assessment of what they are being told by the lamestream liberal and left media as well as what Western leaders say.
There are a number of other issues that could in that fashion be isolated by pro-Israel advocates and many of those that hear that single message, are more likely to incorporate those factors into their calculation in arriving at their views.
May I put in my 2 cents?
Any busload of people drafted to lead would do better than the perennial aggregate that usurps power in Israel.
A few pre conditions are.
None is to be a former general, colonel, police commander, “judge”, MK, radio or TV operative, MOSSAD of SHABBAK person, or a past or present state employee of any type, former convicts. (except political persecution victims). NO MEMBER of the “families” either.
And all serving the NATION must adhere to JEWISH LAW and ETHICS.
Having personally visited The KOTEL and Meharat Hamachpelah would be obligatory. Photo ops do not count.
“still Israel wants to be at the table”
I can never shake that question. If you can come up with a credible ans. it might go a long way in explaining everything else that seems incomprehensible about Israel’s behavior.
Mollie
It is extremely difficult to answer your question “What to do?”
But your question is the beginning of the process.
Can you agree with me as a starting point that it is definitely a question of leadership? I ask this because I sometimes fall down on this very first for me basic…
Do you live in Israel? Can you characterise for me the different leaderships?
what do you suggest be done?
Confidence building measures extracted from Israel over the years have only served to build the confidence of Palestinian leadership that they can get get all they want by incremental inches. They continue to pocket the so called confidence building measures and then hold out for more, while at the same time they have built confidence that they can get away with anything without suffering any consequences.
It is painfully frustrating to watch this game stacked against Israel continue to play out and still Israel wants to be at the table.
http://jihadcapitalistcrisis.blogspot.com/2012/01/these-israeli-leaders-will-lead-to.html
Will lead to serious defeat.
Israel is paralysed. Israeli leadership is totally paralysed
There must be the most serious discussion ont he nature of Israeli leadership bankruptcy and what has to be done about it.