T. Belman. Anyone know what a “basic right” is. Is that the same as “inalienable rights”? Whatever. Moving on. I personally favour the idea that a would be convert is prepared to join the Jewish people. But this entails learning about the Jewish religion and history. The attachment should be genuine and not meant as a ticket to emigrate to Israel. I would even support a requirement that they become Shomer Shabbat and keep kosher for at least a year. Other requirements should be mandated. It should not be easy but it should be easier than the orthodox requirements today.
From an individual perspective, basic rights are being violated because of the ban on non-Jews marrying Jews in Israel.
The most conspicuous characteristic of Israel as the Jewish nation-state is the Law of Return, which permits not only Jews to enter the country, but also non-Jews who are related to them by specified family ties.
As a result, of the more than a million aliyah-eligible persons who have immigrated to Israel from the former Soviet Union, about a third (350,000) are family members of Jews but are not themselves recognized as Jews. This group is growing by about 10,000 persons each year, as a result of natural population growth and continued aliyah. The fact that the state classifies them as non-Jews arouses severe problems.
From an individual perspective, basic rights are being violated because of the ban on non-Jews marrying Jews in Israel. From a national perspective, exclusion from the Jewish collective is liable to weaken identification with the country and lead to an additional “tribal” split in Israeli society. And from a religious perspective, there are some, motivated by the ban on marriage with non-Jews, who would like to create genealogical lists that would distinguish, for the purpose of marriage, between Jews and everyone else. Doing so on a formal basis would likely produce a historic rift among the Jewish people, with far-reaching implications for Israel’s resiliency and future.
On the surface, the solution is clear: Judaism permits people to join its ranks by means of a religious procedure – conversion. But the fact is that conversions over the past decade account for only a disappointing 7% of all the non-Jewish immigrants from the former Soviet Union.
The conversion process has not been successful because those wishing to convert are required to adhere to a religious lifestyle, and most are not interested in doing so. They are not willing to meet standards of observance that most Jews do not. The result is that to convert, they have to pretend. The path to Judaism and full integration into the Jewish nation passes through deceit, so many turn away from it. Is there any way to change this tragic situation?
The key question lies in defining the essence of conversion. Is it about adopting a new religion, or joining a new nation? If the former, it is perfectly natural to require a convert to observe the precepts of religion as a precondition for acceptance as a Jew. This was the opinion, for example, of Saadia Gaon in the 10th century. He held that “our nation is a nation only by virtue of its religious laws”: religion is the core component of the national identity. But there is also a halachic tradition that Jewishness is a “people,” a primordial natural entity, and that a person is obligated to observe Jewish precepts only after joining the people. This is hinted at in the declaration by Ruth the Moabite, the paradigmatic convert whose descendants include King David and the messiah, “Your people shall be my people and your God my God”: first you join the Jewish people, and only after doing so – do you take on a religious commitment.
The debate continues to the present day. The ultra-Orthodox and most rabbis of the Religious Zionist movement hold to the stringent approach, making it difficult to realize the potential for conversion in Israel. On the other hand, a significant group of rabbis (including three who served as Israel’s Chief Rabbi – Bakshi-Doron, Goren and Uziel) held the view that conversion means joining the Jewish people, and that observance of the Jewish precepts is not a precondition for conversion. The rabbinic courts in Israel should consider adopting this more lenient stance.
In addition to the problems already mentioned – the infringement of human rights, the need to maintain the Jewish character of the state, and the fear of a split within the people – the rabbis must come to realize that the rigid halachic position might make conversion irrelevant. The mass integration of “non-Jewish Jews” into Israeli society will soon legitimize the sociological path to becoming a Jew, outside the bounds of religion, and make conversion superfluous. Although some would welcome this development, we must understand that it would constitute a true revolution in the history of the Jewish people (at least since the time of Ezra and Nehemiah, 2,500 years ago), whose implications and dangers are hard to predict.
Finally, a demographic consideration: Today, most Diaspora Jews marry non-Jews. Does it make sense to cut these families off from the Jewish people, even when the non-Jewish wife and mother wants to be Jewish? Does it make sense for a decision by one generation – the present generation – to chop off so many branches from the Jewish tree – and forever? The halachic conversion policy – whether more lenient or more stringent – must deal with the question of whether the Jewish collective in our generation is interested in being insular or in opening its doors.
The writer is a senior fellow at the Israel Democracy Institute and a professor of law at Bar-Ilan University.
@ Adam Dalgliesh: Sorry, Ted, I was wrong. The post I was referring to was not trashed, but published under the “Why Not a Torah State” article by Rabbi-Professor Fishman. Sorry for the mistaken complaint. Best wishes and thanks, Adam
Ted, please de-trash my “final statement” on this issue, which did appear in this space briefly a few hours ago. I think it is relevant to this discussion
@ Edgar G.:
Edgar you are not all wrong some of them eat pork. As so do other Jews in Israel and around the world. I do not eat pork for religious and health reasons.
Now do not be so sensitive I could have called a lot worse than being old. You are old no? 80 plus plus no? Generalizing old people especially really old people are stuck on their views. So I do not anticipate you will change yours.
Sorry if I hurt your feelings about calling you old. Then you did not mind calling all Israelis liars.
Anyway if you are reffing our match you consider calling you old a low blow that is worth deducting a point? Calling all Israelis liars from my standpoint if I was a ref (which I am not) is a disqualification. Also your broadside on Russian Jews is over the top in my view. I understand as I pointed out some people do not change their views. Especially the those in their later…………..!!!!
@ Bear Klein:
You should be thankful…because I could have used a LOT of words to describe the same opinion.. Don’t be such a “smarty-pants” ….I don’t know a lot of them -in numbers-, , but those I did know…maybe 20-25, were all completely treif, and almost all loved chazar and ate it every day or almost. They called it (euphoneously) “white meat” and I was first puzzled that they should be almost “rhapsodising” about what I thought was just chicken. .So they said, and in fact there was one (sickening) time when I accompanied a couple to shop and they led me to what I quickly saw was a chazar store
The stink warned me, and I saw them buy the stuff. I left then. even before they came out..
Wasn’t it strange in your eyes seemingly) that I didn’t even think about whether they were born of a Jewish mother or not. Who cares.???I don’t. I’m just relating my OPINION, and my observations.
Besides…what the hell..I’d been reading about that very same subject ad infinitum” it seemed, when I was living there for 14 years. I recall the row when the religious-and others- tried to get the shops and the pig farmers driven out. (I believe it was a Supreme Ct. matter). As they said, It was a big disgrace that there should be such things in a Jewish country.. And they are damned well right…!!! The Torah especially picks out the pig as a huge NO-NO. It is mentioned twice to highlight the importance of avoiding it.
When a Goy wished to revile or denigrate a Yid , he shoved a piece of pork in his face, and many in the bad old times forced Yidden to eat the stiuff as the ultimate insult. So this very thing plays HUGE, or should, in the life of a Jew. It was tried on me when a child by the next door neighbour. And on others I knew. The favourite Goyisher way of vicariously demeaning a Jew.
Again you’re giving me anecdotal craperoo, and let me point out that I am NOT negating whatever wonderful services they may have given to the Jewish State..So why should you intimate that I am…?? Are you “off the beam ” entirely…?? After all, they live there, and it’s natural that their genius or prowess should be made plain, and available there. They are earning their living from it like anyone else. A silly thing to bring up..
You have reached a very low point, now that you’re criticising my age….My age..what the hell has that to do with you. Do you know my age…were you at my brit ???…I don’t criticize YOUR age, and don’t care if you are still doing poo-poo on the floor or unfortunately in a wheelchair -too old to walk..
I’m only …as I thought…discussing” the differences between YOUR opinion, and MY opinion. You seem to be on the warpath over this paltry matter, and what I have said seems to be a “Causus Belli” to you.
GROW UP….!. And then let us, at some future time soon, resume our usual
discourses with mutual respect as in the past.. I don’t mind a little mustard here and there as you well know….but THIS has gone “Beyond the Pale”…
Like the Albatross in the poem.
@ Edgar G.:
You with a few words disparage all the immigrants from the former Soviet Union who were not born to a Jewish mother. Naturally you know all of them personally and all their individual habits.
I have know a few or more than a few in my life and sweeping generalizations such as yours’ do a disservice to these people.
I will not try and change your mind as it is very hard to change hardened attitudes especially in really old people once they have cast their viewpoint.
Russian immigrants in Israel have contributed greatly to the country in many fields including service in the IDF.
Some of these people were not born with a Jewish mother. Some converted in the IDF which had reasonable conversion. If such a system existed outside then more would convert. Some converted via the Rabbinut
@ Bear Klein:
Yes Bear, I also have known such people, even some living outside Israel and previously strong Catholics. Imagine the shock of meeting the wife of a sports friend for the first time, flaming red hair buxom, and an Irish accent you could only cut with a sharp axe. The very picture of a healthy, Irish country corn fed girl. Yet, devoutly observant in every way. They have now been in Israel for many years.
But on a matter like this, anecdotal example can abound but mean little against the life-long, overruling habits of the Russian Israeli Goyim..
I stand by me assertions.
@ Edgar G.:I personally know several people who converted to Judaism and joined the Jewish people in Israel. None of them live like people in Bnei Brak or Mea Shearim.
They have joined the IDF married and had families and grand kids in Israel. Lived like regular Israeli Jews on kibbutzim. Lots of precedent more recent than Ruth.
The Biblical Ruth story is very interesting, yes it would impossible to demonstrate that is 100% factual. However, like other Biblical stories it reflects lessons to be learned of what is important.
@ Edgar G.:
I don’t believe in going back to -perhaps-mythical events like Ruth etc, for a precedent, and to rely heavily on the fact that she would join the people, “before” she mentioned the G-D. Her pagan concept of the Jewish G-D could not have been other than a mystery to her….that, if she ever actually lived , she may never have solved, but just took her place as a woman in archaic Israeli society. .
These are just red herrings, as the story purports to tell a tale and not lay down for all future time how to go about conversion, or joining the Jewish Nation.
I have already written on this site, and very recently, Jewish Law expanded and contracted according to the pressures, the locations, and the importance of those Gaonim, Sages and Rabbonim who issued their opinions. It “should” be well known —although it isn’t-, that in most or many cases. there were opposing opinions by no less important personages. They are all recorded….
And the rule which evolved was ….to “follow the majority.”. This seems to have been forgotten in Israel…and a good thing too, otherwise there would be neither Jew nor Israel today.
But this is a special case and subject, going to the very heart of our existence.
@ Edgar G.:
Well we agree that the former IDF program should be made universal for conversion.
That all Israelis are liars let us just say you are entitled your views. Clearly many who to convert did want to live a very strict religious lifestyle or lie about it in order to be accepted for conversion.
@ Bear Klein:
My candid opinion is that the 350,-400,000 Goyim in Israel who don’t convert, do not make “reluctance to lie” their chief reason. For a Russian Israeli it even seems paltry…( of course there is a variety of reasons, but at lest some genuine effort to carry out the precepts should be required). In my 14 years in Israel, I don’t believe I ever met an Israeli who would not lie to his own benefit. I suggest that they are more concerned about having to be daven every morning, afternoon and evening, and etc..all meaningless repetition to them..but less major than to keep Kosher, eschewing chazar, of which they re the main purchasers.
And the expense and trouble of needing new sets of kitchen-ware, as well as other complete sets for Pesach……(I’m not sure of the Israeli practice in this matter…We just kept to our usual Diaspora customs)
The IDF programme as pointed out by Bear was an excellent one and should be made more universal It would be the answer to all the dispute and divisiveness over this blown -up easily solvable matter, already with a viable solution at hand.
What a shame. Should take money from the Haredi Yeshiva’s budget and give to the IDF for this worthwhile program.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/army-conversion-track-to-close-friday-over-budget-shortfall/
In Israel conversions were done by the Religious Zionist Rabbis in the IDF in which Judaism was taught to new immigrant soldiers mostly. The soldiers were had joined the Jewish people has they had moved to the Jewish Country Israel and were serving in the army to protect the State of the Jews.
These courses were successful. The difficulty comes about is that the time spent in the courses can keep the soldier from getting other training and advancing to certain jobs. These soldiers were never required to live like a Haredi Jew. Their conversions were fully legitimate and legal.
In the 1970s outside of the Army some people received conversion classes inside Israel and were accepted into the tent of the Jewish people. Some of these might have been foreigners who moved to a kibbutz and were living with the Jewish people and were going to marry a native Israeli Jew. They were NOT again required to live some phony pretend life living like a Haredi. People who want to convert are quite willing to learn about Jewish rituals and history. They are already living life among the Jewish people and how most Jewish people live. They should simply not be required to pretend or lie about their lifestyle.
There are up to 400,000 people who may want conversions but are not willing to lie in order to obtain the Orthodox Conversion they want. They were accepted to Israel under the law of the Return but are prevented from converting by uber strict Haredi Rabbis.
Currently the conversion authorities inside of Israel are requiring people to live like Haredis in order to be accepted as a convert. This is against the tradition of Jewish people all over the world and contradictory with many many prior conversions in Israel.
Mostly I agree with Stern the writer of the article certainly his sentiments
https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-5458400,00.html
It is not clear that the author knows anything about halacha. He is a secular lawyer.
As a non-rabbi, his opinion will exert no influence whatsoever on the Israeli rabbinate.
The main flaw in the whole anti-haredi, anti-Orthodox-in-general campaign is its complete detachment from reality.Parliament is not going to disestablish Orthodox Judaism. It is not going to fire the chief rabbis or change the composition of the rabbinic courts, etc. It is not going to draft vast numbers of haredim. Why? For one thing, it would lead to months of rioting by the haredim. Can the state really cope with that while still fighting the Arab terrorists? None of the political parties except possibly the Arab ones want to provoke riots.
Second, the only solid support the Israelis are getting from sectors of the Orthodox communities outside Israel. The government is not interested in losing their support. Third, all the right-of -center parties except Leiberman’s support the establishment of Orthodox Judaism in principle, even if their MKs are not personally observant. Fourth, it is not in their political interest to alienate the haredi parties, whose support they need to form a government.
Rightly or wrongly, it ain’t going to happen. But the noise made by the Left and the Leibermanites creates a lot of internal division and ill will. Israel does not need that.