A body politic barred from determining who may dwell within its boundaries is not a free, democratic society.
Following last Tuesday’s jihadist massacre of four rabbis and a police officer at the Bnei Torah Kehillat Yaakov synagogue in Jerusalem, Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu ordered law enforcement bodies to act immediately to destroy the homes of the two terrorist murderers who carried out that attack. He also directed them to destroy the homes of the terrorists who carried out the three other recent attacks in Jerusalem.
The following day, police destroyed the home of one terrorist murderer. Two more homes were supposed to be destroyed in short order.
But then the EU-funded radical leftist NGO Hamoked – Center for the Defense of the Individual petitioned the Supreme Court, sitting as the High Court of Justice, opposing the orders.
Wednesday the court issued an injunction prohibiting state authorities from carrying out the house demolition orders.
In directing law enforcement officials to carry out the home demolitions, Netanyahu argued that the move serves as a deterrent to future would-be terrorists. Whether or not he is correct is a matter of debate. But certainly the Supreme Court can’t determine the effectiveness of the move better than the IDF can. And the IDF’s official position is that destroying the homes of terrorists deters potential terrorists from attacking.
And yet, rather than recognize the limitations of their own wisdom, Supreme Court justices acted on the behalf of an EU-funded radical organization that represents no significant constituency in Israel, and overruled the democratically elected government, curtailing its power to take the measures it deems necessary to protect the public.
This of course was just the latest move by the court to arrogate to itself the powers duly conferred on the public’s elected representatives in the government and the Knesset.
In September, the court ruled on another petition brought before it by radical left-wing NGOs funded by the EU and other foreign actors.
In its jaw dropping decision to strike down the “Infiltrators Law” amendment to the 1954 Prevention of Infiltration Law, and order the closure of the state’s holding facilities for illegal aliens from Africa, the court effectively denied the people’s elected representatives the power to determine Israel’s immigration policies. In so doing, the court hollowed out the public’s right to self-determination.
It also diminished Israel’s democratic system of government.
A body politic barred from determining who may dwell within its boundaries is not a free, democratic society.
The court also weakened Israel’s long-term viability as the Jewish state. A Jewish state unable to prevent the dilution of its Jewish majority through the illegal mass immigration of predominantly Muslim Africans is a Jewish state with a dubious future.
This of course brings us to the current hullabaloo about the draft legislation of the Nation-State Law.
Supporters of the draft legislation that seeks to give a constitutional anchor to Israel’s identity as the nation-state of the Jewish people argue that the law will weaken the court’s power to undermine Israel’s Jewish identity.
Extolling the bill, Economy Minister and head of the Bayit Yehudi party Naftali Bennett said Sunday, “The Nation-State Law… will save residents of south Tel Aviv from the infiltrators [from Africa, who have become a dominant force in the area].
When the law to block infiltrators is brought before the Supreme Court next time, the court will have to consider the fact that Israel is the national home of the Jewish people… This is an important development for residents of south Tel Aviv and for the State of Israel as a whole.”
MK Yariv Levin, one of the drafters of the legislation, said, “Today we took an historic step in restoring Israel to its Zionist roots, after years of constant erosion of Zionist norms on which the state was founded by the legal system.”
The problem with assessments like these, which inform the political Right’s dedication to the bill, is that they have no basis in reality. The proposed law changes nothing about the legal status of Israel or its Jewish character. All of the substantive determinations made in the bill are already anchored in existing laws, including in some cases, laws with constitutional standing.
In its judgments over the past 20 years, the court’s justices have had no qualms whatsoever about ignoring laws, including laws with constitutional standing, in order to advance their post-Zionist political agenda.
For instance, as Sefi Keller explained this week in Mida online magazine, both justices Aharon Barak and Mishael Cheshin disregarded the plain language of Basic Law: Knesset in their rulings.
That law prohibits anti-Zionist parties from running for Knesset. Both justices ruled in separate instances that the openly anti-Zionist Balad party could run.
There is no reason to assume that a new basic law insisting that the justices respect Israel’s Jewish character will have any impact on them. Indeed, their partners at the State Prosecution have already told the media that if the law is passed, the Supreme Court will overturn it (when asked to do so by EU-funded NGOs).
Attorney-General Yehuda Weinstein announced his opposition to the bill ahead of the government’s vote Sunday. Weinstein has a track record of refusing to defend the government to the court when he doesn’t like the government’s position.
The unavoidable fact is that the only way to curb the power of the court is to take direct action against the sources of its arrogated powers. The Knesset must amend Basic Law: Human Dignity and Liberty, the basis for the Supreme Court’s post-Zionist actions.
It must change the selection process for justices.
It must end the anomalous and anti-democratic situation in which the state prosecutors and attorney- general are above elected leaders.
It must end the devastating trend in which every senior government appointment, and many Knesset decisions, must receive prior approval from a judge or from a committee led by judges.
For many on the Right the Nation State bill was supposed to be the first step on this road. The bill itself was first presented as a consensus measure whose purpose was to fight the international movement to delegitimize Israel’s right to exist.
Four years ago, the bill was drafted jointly by Likud MK Ze’ev Elkin and Kadima MK Avi Dichter. Dichter was acting with authority from then-opposition leader and Kadima leader Tzipi Livni. More than a dozen other members of her party co-sponsored it.
The coalition agreement for the current government, which both Livni, as the head of Hatnua party, and Yair Lapid, as head of Yesh Atid party, agreed to, stipulates that the government would pass the bill. Passing the bill was not considered controversial.
And yet, once the bill was scheduled to be debated last week by the Ministerial Committee for Legislation which Livni chairs as justice minister, she turned rejecting the bill she had previously sponsored and agreed to pass into the be-all and end-all of her tenure in office.
In multiple statements, Livni called the bill she committed her party to supporting just last year, “anti-Zionist,” “anti-Jewish” and “anti-democratic.”
Livni’s partner in the grandstanding, Lapid, has similarly attacked the legislation.
It is worth recalling that just a week before they became impassioned champions of democracy, both Lapid and Livni voted in favor of a bill that seeks to close the largest-circulation paper in the country. Their support of the bill owed entirely to their opposition to Yisrael Hayom’s political line.
In other words, these two valiant defenders of democracy support censorship.
But far worse than their hypocrisy and their cheap opportunism is the fact that in opposing this bill – that will change nothing in the way Israel is governed – the two ministers and coalition partners are doing massive damage to the country.
By attacking a bill that does nothing but re-state the fact that Israel is the nation-state of the Jewish people as “anti-democratic,” Lapid and Livni are joining the chorus of Israel-bashers worldwide who claim that there is something inherently evil about Jewish self-determination.
Livni and Lapid are advancing the growing campaign by Jew-haters to demonize Israel as illegitimate, and Zionism is racist. By castigating this anodyne, redundant law they previously supported as anti-democratic, they are saying that there is a contradiction between being a Jewish state and being a democracy.
In all likelihood, their support for the bill owes to the growing herd mentality of the Israeli Left.
Earlier this month Haaretz, the trumpet of the post-Zionism, initiated a campaign to demonize the Nation State bill. The paper’s writers said the legislation will destroy Zionism, lead to Nazism, lead to apartheid, and lead to apartheid and Nazism.
Rather than dismiss these idiotic claims, Livni, Lapid, their backbenchers and large swathes of the media followed Haaretz over the cliff, vapidly parroting its slanderous and anti-Semitic claims.
For Livni, whose party faces electoral destruction in the coming election, embracing the anti-Zionist Left may make political sense. She may pass the electoral threshold by running to the left of Meretz.
Lapid is a different matter. His party’s public support has also collapsed. But as the leader of a party that ran as a middle class centrist party, it is hard to see how embracing the position of Students for Justice in Palestine will help Yesh Atid recapture the center.
Most Israelis are Zionists and don’t understand what all the excitement is about.
Whatever Lapid’s considerations may be, what is clear enough is that his behavior, like that of Livni, and indeed like the behavior of the politicians on the Right who insist that support for the unnecessary bill is a new litmus test for Zionism, is a clear demonstration of the pathologies of Israeli politics.
The Right, like the majority of the public that supports it and votes for it, recognizes that the greatest danger to Israel’s democratic system and status as a Jewish state is the radicalized legal system. But today the Right lacks the power to pass the legislation required to curb the power of Israel’s unelected legal rulers.
Rather than doing the hard work of running a continuous, relentless campaign to accrue the requisite power to reform the system, politicians on the Right have embraced an unnecessary bill that will do nothing as the guarantor of Israel’s future.
On the other hand, their counterparts on the Left have shown that the Israeli Left is today largely indistinguishable from the international Left which rejects Israel’s right to exist and rejects the Jewish people’s right to sovereignty and freedom in its homeland. With Haaretz acting as the conduit between the BDS movement and government ministers, politicians on the Left have become unmoored from the basic requirements of national life.
In other words, the current maelstrom over the draft Nation State bill shows that Israel’s political Right is far weaker than it needs to be and that Israel’s political Left is far more destructive than it ought to be.
www.CarolineGlick.com
Felix Quigley Said:
I agree with this statement and I find it astounding that the state of Israel cannot utter the following words:
“Jewish settlement in ALL of Israel is legitimate AND legal”
Even the weakest of nations and peoples are capable of uttering a few words in their own behalf. Israelis appear to be quite ignorant in their heritage and history regarding this issue and the expelling of Jews from arab nations. if the Israeli govs had not filtered this information and kept it out of the schools then we would probably not be even having this conversation now.
@ honeybee:
Let it be. He craves attention and he is not worthy of our time.
The more anyone answer is like wood to a fire. He goes on, and and on. Save out time and the ink. IGNORE HIM.
yamit82 Said:
I do not understand this perspective. it appears to me that israel does not know what to do with the territories it conquered and currently controls. Jerusalem, the Mount and YS are all currently under Israel’s control. On the Mount I fault the lack of support from the religious sector and also somewhat on YS and jerusalem. However, in the end Israel has YS AND Jerusalem but has avoided settling Jews there as mandated by LON. Not only does Israel NOT settle these territories with Jews it cannot even UTTER the following words:
“Jewish settlement is legal and legitimate in all of Israel”
Perhaps there is a reason for this oversight or state of being mute on this issue? I am not talking about action but merely words. The weakest states and entities are able to speak words and opinions on their own behalf even when they know it is futile(e.g. the pals). Uttering these words is merely the expression of an opinion both legal and non legal. The EU is constantly, and repeatedly, expressing their opinion without restraint and even following through by funding the Jew killers and helping them illegally settle Jewish land. Why cannot Israeli leaders utter these simple words, after all this should be a constantly repeated mantra that precedes all talks just like the national anthem at a soccer game?
Do they have foot in mouth disease, perhaps a little tutoring from the tutor who taught George VI in “The Kings Speech”.
Until the GOI can utter these simple words on a repetitive basis we should expect the continuation of the libels against Israel AND the diaspora Jews and we should cease whining and pointing out the unfairness of the foreigners who merely fill the empty vacuum left open by the GOI.
The solution begins in israel with the GOI and the religious sector. If the religious sector were to support zionism and jewish sovereignty there would be no problem as they could easily send weekly 750k in support of jewish sovereignty over the Mount, Jerusalem and YS. IF the religious sector cannot support these basic principles then why are they even in Israel? it is time that this sector is brought under scrutiny and their self appointed Judaism put under the microscope. Perhaps they are G_D’s punishment arising from, and with, the diaspora?
How can they lead the Jewish people in anything other than into the ovens!!!!!!!
dweller Said:
and a snitch !!!!!!!!!!! Yamit82 never finishes his sentences.
@ Felix Quigley:
Felix you are a genius.
This is what i mean. The Jews are a very historical people and nation and hold big sway. Just a statement of intent is a very powerful blow struck for its own freedom and also for the freedom of nations, and against all forms of Big Nation repression
Just imagine the power in this. Imagine the stir this will créate in the staid halls of the BBC. they will go insane. Why not! What has Israel to lose? nothing and everything to gain!
See the article by Steven Plaut http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/16073
Israel really should issue clear statement on
Kurds
Ulster
catalonia
Basques
Scotland
Crimea (if they want it)
and needs to be done without delay
A very interesting development has happened where a Netherlands MP has called for the closing down of all mosques in Netherlands. I immediately supportd this but called for it to be applicable everywhere. Now this is what I mean. An Israeli leadership worth its salt will be onto this like a shot. And be prepared to take action first of all in the form of a statement of intent (a statement is also an action) the intent being that the Mosque in the centre of our world attention WILL BE closed down and will be replaced by the Jewish Temple, and at the same time that the relatively very holy área of Judea and Samaria is safeguarded for the Jewish Nation and nothing else matters. That is a statement no action yet. But immediately Jews take control or start the process and Jews decide on the running of the whole shebang. At a later stage the monstrosity will be removed and rebuilt in a manner which is tasteful to humanity even to atheists who will have learned to oppose Islam as a cáncer on humanity. It is possible to have áreas of ACTION agreement along the way.
guys you need a special kind of leadership for all this kind of jazz so we kind of discuss here in the hopes of…there we all have differing ideas. The web has ushered in an era of talking, in one sense it is good but another fatal. I meant to dweller just DO, just the point of DOING as opposed to talking. Until such a leadership get off the ground we often have to go along with some other leadership that we think helps along, thus some may see that in Bennett for a while, or for the moment it may advance us, or Danon, or Feiglin, or even Netanyahu in some aspects of his policy. But what we all must fight for is that Israel is independent and know it is so. Thus Israel can take political positions and if these positions (just verbal is enough) and if they upset the blue blazes out of the US Government and the EU lot THEN THEY ARE USUALLY BENEFICIAL TO ISRAEL AND THE JEWS. Such a one is the Hague international court. On no account should Israel give this time of day. Fight against it as a matter of national principle. Be ready and willing to support every single person no matter how bad they are against this court. Do that and watch your real enemies creep out of the dung. Israel can become the guardian of national rights in our era of rotting capitalism and plans for “new world order” (Bryzinski)
@ yamit82:
You never answered the question of whether AG is appointed or elected.
If the position is appointed, and not a lifetime appointment, then he serves at the pleasure of the PM.
If the PM doesn’t dare dismiss him for fear of the media, then the PM is not the head of govt; the publishers are.
It’s one thing to refrain from dismissing an AG who’s investigating a scandal or govt corruption.
It’s something else to hang back from dismissing him when he fails to represent the govt at law. If the govt cannot make that case to the people, the govt should fall.
Ha’aretz article requires subscription.
If I had jumped to conclusions, as you say, I wouldn’t have asked the questions.
You need to see it that way; no surprises, so far.
It would be so comforting to believe that, wouldn’t it?
Not lazy. You know that my online time is limited, and there are some things I don’t trust to a quick search. Israel govt structure & practice are two of them. Too many wrinkles in that prune.
@ Felix Quigley:
Never do anything about WHAT?
@ yamit82:
Apples & Oranges. 1967 was an anomalous situation. Tells you nothing of substance in this matter. It is when the world is against you that you find out who’s got your back & why. When everybody’s in your corner (as was the case in 67, except for the Arabs & friends), it isn’t necessary to take up delicate questions of whether you’re right.
I doubt that those surveys discuss the Mandate or its antecedents. If they do, SHOW them to me.
“Put up” WHAT???
@ yamit82:
Jewish ingenuity always respond to a need. Lots of inventions
are really good for nothing or almost nothing. Jewish inventions always comes as an answer to a need. In this case a great need. What greater need that keeping the population safe. Israel has been blessed.
@ yamit82:
Thank you for the video. Not only I dare to dream but I keep on dreaming about the Third Temple. Wish it could happen in my lifetime. Perhaps…It is always the possibility. Not the probability but the possibility always exist.
What a scandal! The successive GOI’s have kept Israel in ignorance, the same applies to the education regarding the legal and legitimate rights of the Jewish people to settle in all of the palestine mandate territory. The GOI colludes in facilitating a cloud of ignorance over Israelis. The Jewish people, starting with Israel, need to be educated on the swindle by the foreigners AND the GOI and then they can demand of their gov to support Jewish settlement, and even transfer, once knowing the truth.
yamit82 Said:
Quite so but the state can pursue some roads and NGO’s and individuals others.
yamit82 Said:
I agree, which is why pursuit in the individual national courts is one good option(USA,UK,etc) but you appear to keep missing my whole point and returning to the hague. I envision no court case at the Hague as it is a kangaroo court. I see the first main thrust should be made by the PM and FM diplomatically calling in all ambassadors of nations which signed the relevant treaties and documents which encouraged and facilitated Jewish immigration and settlement and demanding the ceasing of libel and the observance of agreements. why cant a GOI do this unless they beleive Jewish settlement in YS is illegal or illegitimate? this would tend to publicly put the Jewish narrative in the picture which is now absent due primarily to the absence of the GOI on this issue. The same issue can be pursued in the US courts by suing the US gov for mandamus and estoppel and possibly also in civil court if damages resulting from the rogue executive policy can be quantified. Please stop returning with the argument of losing a case at the hague, lawfare and its benefits does not begin at the Hague. Its greatest benefit is to put the legal narrative of the jewish people in the public forum where it has been ignored and obstructed by the Israeli gov for decades similarly to the british and Jordanian govs prior.
yamit82 Said:
then you should be very happy with BB as he appears to be the expert at status quo.
Your general arguments regarding conquest miss the problem. Israel has already conquered YS, Jerusalem and the Mount. If the GOI had settled YS through the decades and rejected the illegitimacy arguments of Jewish settlement then by now area C would hold a massive Jewish population which could not be ignored. Israel keeps trying to avoid even the uttering of the taboo words:
“Jewish settlement in all of YS is legal and legitimate”
furthermore, you keep talking about the Mount being a unifying symbol to spur the Jews to protest but I keep asking who are these Jews which agree with you? The religious sector is split with the chief rabbi throwing away the Mount and the Haredi advising to leave it in Muslim hands. So, who would you rely on to rally to the symbol and why would they rally later as opposed to now? My view is that the religious sector is completely unreliable in preserving the interests of the Jewish people in the land of Israel except for the religious zionists. The religious sector will not change their mind and rally round. Only the ignorant sectors minds can be changed by knowing the facts which the GOI’s have kept from them: the legality and legitimacy of jewish settlement in Israel.
Your solutions also rely on changing peoples minds before they take action.
Jewish settlement in YS must end up with Jewish sovereignty in YS. there is no legal argument against the settlement of Jews in YS, only the settlement of Israeli citizens in YS under the GC. although this argument is also spurious it confuses the public which is why a bold tactical move of massive diaspora immigration directly to YS using land grants like the US homestead act can legally avoid that issue. The main value of pursuing lawfare is to change Jewish minds perspective on the facts and create the justification in ignorant jewish minds for continuing to exercise jewish rights. the second value of lawfare and an aggressive diplomacy is to prepare the environment for massive settlement thus enabling those who wish to maintain relations with israel to be given an argument for doing so. Right now Israel provides international supporters with no argument other than security.
My view is that if Israeli leadership cannot utter these simple words, and at least act diplomatically, then everyone should stop whining about how unfair the internationals are behaving. They are taking their cue from the GOI.
bernard ross Said:
There is a big difference between individual claims and that of State. America is for the most part an independent Judiciary and American law is more unencumbered even immune to outside political pressure. Not so the International court. I gave an example of Taba where israel believed she had an iron clad case and lost. Losing such a case would be more injurious and disadvantageous to Israel then current status Quo.
dweller Said:
The Attorney General has four main duties:
Head of the public prosecution system
Representative of the state in all legal proceedings
Chief legal council to the government
Representative of the public interest in any legal matter
He answers theoreticly to his understanding of the law and has the status of a sitting Judge on the SC of Israel and is deemed a suitable candidate for Judgeship. Many of the AG of Israel have been elevated to the SCOI after they leave their positions as AG. AG can be fired but it’s unheard of in Israel and the press would crucify any PM he did such an unprecedented act. A PM can ignore the AG advice and the AG can refuse to represent the Gov of Israel in court.
Adviser or prosecutor? Israel’s attorney general can’t be both
There is a conflict of interest between the attorney general’s two functions and the office must be split in two.
Stupid Lazy dweller. The answers were essentially a few clicks of your mouse from assessing relevent information.
You jumped to conclusions without knowing much on the subject.
You accused HB for asking questions when they were easily attainable through Google etc. I see it as a case of the kettle and the pot. You are such a pompous disingenuous hypocrite. A very lazy one to boot.
I agree with Felix #28 He is right and cave man (dweller) is wrong.
In 1967 Israel had a majority of Jews with her. We even had within a month or two over 50,000 youthful volunteers from all over the Jewish world here in Israel. A few like me even stayed on.
Jews supported Israel the conqueror but when Israel began trading away territory at any price Israel the winner turned into Israel the loser in the minds of the Jewish diaspora and it’s been a steady downward trend ever since.
Dweller is an idiot in spades and understands Jews like I understand Zulus. He projects his own views onto others and
then draws incorrect conclusions that he states as incontrovertible fact. They are neither incontrovertible nor fact but his own opinionated projections stated as fact.
There are a myriad of surveys testing Jewish opinions on Israel to which Mr. Cave man (dweller)has access to all of them and if his projections were valid he could offer results of those surveys to substantiate and validate his fallacious claims.
That’s his MO. Always shooting from the hip a plethora of BS unsupported by any real data and just his usually sick opinionated Projections representing nothing but his own warped fantasies of what and who are Jews.
My challenge to Mr. Cave man is put up or shut up.
I defend Bibi against antisemites but at same time Bibi is open traitor…that is a key point. As stated above he sells out on Temple and he sells out on pal state. Is a vacuum
Latest on 4international is same issue…who wil act and who can act…deals with vacuum of leadership
On 26 you are wrong totally and Yamit is right. Conquest first then justify second. You dweller will never DO anything
Put it up to Yamit and he folds ie diverts. His post 23 on lasers a diversion. So then the Temple I agree but say how…
@ yamit82:
Jews didn’t have the power to oppose HMG in 1922, because they didn’t have de facto sovereignty, and HMG was threatening to withdraw its support for the Mandate altogether (a bluff, but the Zionist Organization was too naive to realize this at the time).
In 1939, the LON was actually prepared and WILLING to take up the question of HMG’s violations of the Crown’s mandate obligations to the Jews.
The Permanent Mandates Commission [PMC] — the League’s ongoing watchdog, oversight body for ALL the mandates — had actually scheduled review of the White Paper of the previous May, based on the August majority opinion of the Commission.
The review was scheduled for Sept 8 of that yr.
But German panzers rolled over the Polish frontier on Sept 1.
And HMG (and France) declared War on Sept 3.
After that, nobody had much time for legal niceties.
You cannot ‘accept’ (or, for that matter, reject) what you don’t know EXISTS.
NOT an ‘opinion’
— an assumption.
Asleep, perhaps. Dormant.
Not ‘dead.’
Ass-backwards.
Reconquest has its value, I’d never deny that — but you won’t get the requisite support from Jews (in OR out of Israel) for such a project without their PRIOR — and unshakable — belief in the justice of the ACT of conquest.
@ yamit82:
Sorry, I shouldn’t have used the word position. The ambiguity in usage didn’t occur to me at the time. When I used the term, I was thinking of it NOT in re Weinstein’s “position” concerning some issue — but rather, his “position” in the govt.
Take Two:
Is the posting of AG not an appointive one? If it IS, then does he not serve at the pleasure of the PM — and subject to dismissal by same?
If Weinstein arrived in his job as AG independently of the PM/GOVT’s election — i.e., if he was elected separately and not appointed by the PM who formed the govt — then whom does he (structurally) answer to?
@ bernard ross:
@ bernard ross:
Oh my gosh! Lasers against missiles. Can you believe what Jewish ingenuity can do?!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qhsghwyt6gk
Comment to BR spammed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
yamit82 Said:
I agree with this push. I like that bennett told the US to butt out on the jewish state bill.
@ the phoenix:
For now I only see Bennett. at least he clearly presents a platform of anexing at least C and has reached close to a position of power. furthermore, as I beleive the beginning of success will begin with a PM or FM uttering the words”
“Jewish settlement in all YS is legal and legitimate”
He appeared to be able to tell the US that the Jewish state bill was none of their business. Israel needs more leaders in power who can begin to change the narrative put out there by previous so called zionists and nationalists.
I am astounded that a powerful nation like Israel cannot even utter its own opinion and call ambassadors in over their agreement reneging and libel. gosh, a few words that appear to be so taboo that even Yamit wont utter them…
( 😛 )
@ bernard ross:
I hope and pray to live to see that day.
If kahane in his day did not succeed to carry over the vast majority of Israeli Jews…. (He had charisma, knowledge and passion.)
WHO pray tell might be this blessed PM?
As I see it, there is feiglin, whose message is consistent and rings true, but he has no following and in more than a decade and a half, he has not much to show for as far as accomplishing this goal (maybe, maybe he is like the stone cutter that just keeps on striking at the rock with his hammer and nothing appears to happen for dozens and dozens of blows..yet at one point, the stone just splits, exactly as he planned… Who knows?)
Comment to yamit in moderation.
@ yamit82:
Yamit, if I may join the exchange, i agree with your block quoted comment
BUT
As things seem from afar, there are not many VISIBLE/KNOWN leaders that advocate this position and that would have a following.
I wish mr Ross were wrong, but (again, as seen from here) the only people to show that they REALLY care about ‘something’, and very much so… Were the hundreds of thousands of hareidim at the funeral…
You hinted elsewhere that indeed it would only take a precious few, or even one gavril princip- like character to create a complete game change.
While admittedly, there is no way to deny the possibility of such an event… it still remains a fact that there is no movement nor leader that one could identify as championing your statement.
I guess I’ll know more by next week… 😉
yamit82 Said:
Not stripped of legal relevance, only ignored by Israelis and GOI’s
yamit82 Said:
No statute of limitations and no agreements which are superior AND conflict with settling Jews in YS. Apparently you have bought into the arguments of the delegitimizers.
yamit82 Said:
Absolutely not! Israel ceded any possiblity of such a claim when it superseded it by treaty. However, territorial aqcuqistion through self defense does not necessitate settlement. Its a completely different legal position.
yamit82 Said:
The right of jewish settlement in all the palestine mandate was not canceled by the intransigence and neglect of the state of Israel. The horse is not dead, it has been drugged into a coma by dumb jews and all it needs to awaken it is a political and religious leadership that embraces the principle:
“Jewish settlement in YS is legal and legitimate”
start by having your FM call in ambassadors and lodge a complaint that they are reneging on their agreements, demand they comply, call them liars for calling jews illegal and illegitimate. Is that too difficult for an Israeli FM or PM to enunciate. Just start with words and after uttering the words perhaps dumb Jews will start to beleive that principle rather than the ignorance being fed to them by succeeding GOI’s and religious politicos seeking perks.
yamit82 Said:
Law and lawfare have gained power since WWII and even the US gov has been brought to court and made settlement with tribes over land claims and treaties. The whole casino program comes from this.
yamit82 Said:
Todays reality is an aberration created by jews who apparently threw back the gift of a Jewish brain into G_D’s face. there is no reason that a strong nationalistic PM cannot reverse the narrative resulting from the GOI’s absence from the podium. there is no rocket science in this nor even danger as the first little baby step is merely to utter words. You appear to have brainwashed yourself into accepting the narrative of the anti zionists and the notion that Jews cannot win at a game involving brains. Moreso, you appear to predicate uttering a few taboo words on winning a court case at the Hague. I keep saying, and you keep ignoring the steps to take diplomatically and legally by the GOI and by Jewish NGO’s. I am sure that Shurat Ha din could handle it with a few dollars and the removal of obstruction by the GOI.
Minister Naftali Bennett: Conclusions and insights from my week in China
bernard ross Said:
That’s the official line and there might be seed of truth in their fears which I believe are greatly exaggerated.
I think they don’t want the religious Jews to get a foothold on the mount. It would change or so they feel the secular nature of the country and threaten their near monopoly of the character of the country and it’s norms and image to the world that now exists.
The ultra religious don’t want the power and responsibilty they would have to assume were the mount return to it’s historic centrality in Judasim and to the Jewish people.
They do not wish in many cases to relinquish their power or control over their followers to a renewed importance of a levite and Chohen class of Jewish leaders and their ritual centrality to authentic Judaism. So they oppose on flimsy halachic Fatwas.
I see the Temple as a unifying political symbol that can unite as never before all of the Jewish people and not a few Christians who would support it financially and morally.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pHXZyNNes0
bernard ross Said:
The agreement was stripped of all relevance and application even before the ink was dry. The time for Jews to oppose the actions of Britain and the acquiescence of the League of Nations at that time was then. In effect a statute of limitations is in effect due to no challenge and even acceptance by the Jews and a myriad of post agreements divisions of the land creating a new reality on the ground and in fact……
Israel’s conquest of Sinai in a war of self defense is more relevant and credible as a claim than an agreement of just over 90 years ago. That agreement you attach yourself to has been stripped of all reality and de-facto accepted by the Jews and all legitimate Israeli governments. IMO you are beating a dead horse. A horse long dead and buried.
The government of the United Stated has broken every treaty it made with the tribes of American Indians and even admit to it but nobody envisions a return of the Land to the Indians nor payment for breach of contract with them.
If you are powerful you win all arguments. If you are weak you lose; only a reconquest by Israel of all lands taken or given away will return or restore to a sort of status quo ante of 1922 agreements. Only after such a reconquest can you make your legal arguments and maybe they might resonate with some few. Don’t matter as long was we control and impose our will on the renewed situation…
What we claim as ours, will need to be taken by force and held by national will and force. Nobody will give it to us no matter your arguments to that effect. Lots of hot air signifying Nada!!!
While you and others might enjoy the academic debates on the subject they are totally divorced from today’s reality and are a waste of time and effort better used to our advantage elsewhere.
yamit82 Said:
I assumed they were afraid of the reaction of the Muslim world and the security threats which might ensue therefrom
yamit82 Said:
The sinai was a clear acquisition by war whereas YS was included in the LON Pal. mandate and is the legal basis for settlement. there was no international legal basis for settlement in sinai. its not a good analogy.
yamit82 Said:
I keep asking WHO will support the battle for the Mount… the religious sector is divided and the Haredi are against… Once again, which Israelis do you rely upon to secure the Mount for Jews? My lack of understanding comes from seeing that moost Israelis are not for Jewish soveriegnty on the MOunt nor for Jewish settlement in YS…. plus I am wondering whether they also are willing to give up arab areas of Jerusalem. You keep talking about doing things but you never say who you rely on to do these things when it is already clear that there is little support. Imagine, 750k attend the funeral of rabbi yosef and no one protests for jewish sovereignty on the MOunt. When the Mount is abandoned by the apparent religious leadership of israel then your expectations have no critical support.
@ yamit82:
Bottom line.
The vast majority of the countries define themselves according to their primary beliefs, mostly religious and that within the context of the their constitutions.
Others demand that their leaders from a specific origin or belief.
If we cannot do as much, what’s the point of being here?
I would not for one second fight on behalf of a non entity. To go die to defend the Kiriah? Sde Boker?
Lets drop the pretense… ALL of the so called judicial here is controlled from outside elected echelons. The AG responds to that combina.
bernard ross Said:
Getting land and settlement means nothing!! I submit Yamit and Gush Katif in evidence of that fact, even all of Sinai economically worth thousands of Y&S’s… Yet for a lousy piece of paper and and an Israeli flag in Cairo that can’t be safely flown anymore; Israel willingly gave up all of Sinai weakened our military and deterrence caused a 20 year recession! It established precedents for the future, meaning no established Jewish settlement is safe from being liquidated at the whim of a few politicians and generals.
BR- You must consider recent historical facts before sounding off on what should or shouldn’t be done and by whom…..
I return to my constant point: Jerusalem and the Temple Mount is the key and if you don’t see it then you really have little understanding.
The government and the police are not scared over building in Y&S even those violations, but go Bonkers when same involve Jerusalem and the temple mount.. You never ask why but the ans to why is the real answer and also the solution/
dweller Said:
Theoretically his interpretation of the law.
They are supposed to be independent.
Does not the AG serve at the pleasure of the PM?
— If so, replace him.
If he arrived in his position independent of the PM, whom does he (structurally) answer to?
76 seats today is not 76 in March…why not sooner….?
is there a minimum time before dissolution and election?
What is the payment to the 3 religious parties?
What is the platform of the religious parties other than their perks and avoiding the draft….they appear to be against settlement in YS and Jewish control of the Mount?
Making a lot of noise over nothing is usually a red herring to distract from the real issues. the Jewish state and the recognition by the arabs of the Jewish state are ethereal whereas land is not. Getting the land of the jews is more important than arabs recognizing an undefined Jewish state or even jews recognizing an undefined Jewish state. While there is hulabaloo at the Mount or over this issue there is no settlement of Jews proceeding and no one is calling for it.
Get land, settle Jews….those should be the main issues beyond security.
Caroline Glick knows full well that any national entity is anathema to Marxists. Survival for an individual or a group is not sufficient reason to breach that principle. It is this Marxist dogma that guarantees opposition to Israel, since it is the sine qua non and example par excellence of “nationality.” It is this opposition to “national entities” that prevents otherwise normal human beings from expressing condolences to Israelis and world Jewry upon the occasions of their slaughter.
Better for Ms. Glick to directly attack Marxists as inhumane, lacking in empathy, rigid to the point of stupidity and lunacy, dangerous for the survival of humankind, and aiding by example in the process of defining evil. To these deluded folks, the death of an individual is a symptom rather than a tragedy. And that symptom is the fault of all parties that strive for survival and do not support the Revolution.
It seems that after 3,000 years we Jews remain infected with a persistent spiritual cancer that is relentless in its intent to destroy Jews and Judaism. And the Jewish majority also seems perpetually unable to cast out this toxic element from within its ranks. And yet our Torah shows how to deal with this danger if our leaders would only pay attention.
The PEOPLE, as I repeatedly said, MUST rigidly act to remove the self elected enemies and any and all of their supporters. NOW! Will the unJews resist? Of course.
That is why all police and military echelons are theirs … Not all ranks though.
That is not our supreme court it is a branja of certain elites which also must be set back.