By Ted Belman
From now on comments on every post must relate to the content of the post.
Comments that don’t relate to the post must go here.
Any person who contravenes this demand will be put on moderation. Also their offending comment will be trashed.
The reason for this demand is so that people who want to read comments which pertain to the post, don’t have to wade through the chatter.
Everyone will be happier.
We did Christmas and I made Easter Baskets in elementary school art class but I never heard of Jesus and we didn’t have a bible in the house. Though we had tv, so I knew who Charlton Heston was and how he saved our people with his marvelous speaking voice. And to this day, I still think bunnies are cute.
After my father moved out — he hated all religions — we did a make-shift Chanukkha, singing the song on the back of the candle box and dancing around the dining room table, and my mother gave us a gift each day, but we also did Christmas. NO other contet
@ Edgar G.:
Churches also played a big role in my life since childhood on the Upper West Side. I studied Kundilini Yoga and meditation there, and did Cub Scouts and went to concerts, art showings, poetry readings, film showings, international food festivals, plays, Native American commemorative ceremonies, bingo nights. I recently played an orchestral concert at a church that had signs advertising their campaign to save Muslim refugees and oppose Trump in various ways. Not sure what or if they have ever had anything to do with Christianity or any other religion though. I guess that’s why the Christian President Obama never talked about religion except to defend Islam and Muslim immigration and bash Trump, as Christians and Jews have always done from time immemorial.
Edgar G. Said:
Seeing as the Satmar are anti-Zionist, is there a story there?
Michael S Said:
Amazing. How did you know?
I also very wise at that age. Sometime before the age of 9, I recall debating a older Christian boy I knew about who the worst tyrants were. Never having heard of the Germans or the Shoah, I naturally insisted that it was the British. THEY TAXED TEA!
Oh, the humidity! Or something.
@ Edgar G.:
This is not correct. I was intrigued as to why that phrase always had stuck in my memory, so I looked it up. It comes from “The History Of Arthur Pendennis”, one of Thackeray’s more famous books which I have re-read several times.
I recommend it to all who like well phrased correct language, text in the vernacular of the speaker depending on his origin, and unconsciously humourous characters, along with a real story or several stories bound together, and as true to life as can be imagined. A book I could delve into as if I were there at the time.
@ Edgar G.:
I meant to add, to take away from my seriousness and any intent to offend, a phrase from either the “Book of Snobs”, of “The Yellowplush Papers”, both by Thackeray, where an aspiring footman, in a discussion says…. “An’ that’s my candig apinium:……
@ Michael S:
We are not on the same track. I don’t come from Wisconsin. That was part of a attempt to point out your peripatetic movement from one religious group to another, as being so fast and constant that I was being left behind in my slower following of your religious tasting-spree. Religion as you and I know it, has nothing to do with Churches, and Synagogues are for me more a congregation of people both religious and not, who show by choice, our Faith and our People. We are also carrying on our traditions.
MY reading is that you WERE deeply into religion but I have to take your word for it. If you, as an outsider and of a different faith, were to read that account, I believe you would also say that that person had at least, a strong religious curiosity. Just my opinion.
I don’t disagree with your assessment of Modern Judaism as much as you think, BUT.ignoring Reform and Conservative, and .concentrating on the Orthodox, .it tries to stick as closely to it’s roots as is possible in this whirling world, which is advancing as warp speed. For devout Jews, the Torah Principles, as previously mentioned are as valid today as when written, but tempered by possibility.
{There were no automobiles or electricity when the dictums were laid down, so we have modern Sages who issue decrees which, taking them as existing, work around them to find a solution which adheres to the original PRINCIPAL….Like Shabbat Elevators for instance, or Shabbat Goys, Or using an asbestos pad so that we could leave cooking on a very low gas flame throughout Friday night.}.
The Talmud began to be published around 180-200, and discussed all the unclear, or uncertain meanings of Torah dictums which had arisen over time, tribulation, migration, poverty, and outside pressures. The sages were no longer sure of the exact meanings of certain passages, and many were ambiguous although understood generally. But the Mishna, above all, was meant as a clarification of many of the Torah ambiguosities. Like “Thou Shalt \Not Kill” Nowadays we say “murder” instead of “kill”. ….There is likely much on the internet about this very thing so I won’t belabour it further.
But I must make clear, that, the Mishna was the result of an unbroken tradition, from the Javne Sages to students, who became sages, to their students, and other Rabbis, composed of Torah laws, decisions by famous Rabonim, discussions on these decisions, and eventually coming to a general consensus as to why the Rabbi decided this way instead of that, and how valid it should be regarded by Jews as a People.
The Gemara, on the other hand, was a similarly conducted heavy discussion of the decisions and reasons laid down in the Mishna. In other words a Mishna decision led to a discussion of why, or why not. Almost never ending, and whilst the Mishna was being committed to writing by aound 200, the Gemara took several hundred years longer emerging gradually from around 500 on.
I should mention that there is both a Babylonian Talmud and a Jerusalem Talmud, discussed and published independently, of which the Babylonian, which had far more freedom and reputation, is regarded as the more important .They ruled themselves almost autonomously.
I learnt Gemara in Chaidar, and it is written in a kind of secret script, and after the dizziness brought on by the complexities and depth of the contents, proved to be very interesting. Everything was a form of “why” and/or/ just suppose” and..”why not”…..
I believe that there is ample evidence that the New Testament was NOT completed before the year 100, and you don’t tell me why you do so believe. And just your belief cannot stack up against the considered and fully explained reasons of famous historical archaeologists, who have expertise as well as all the historical knowledge of the times available, and the modern techniques to prove their theories, which, in very many cases have become recognised as facts. Of course as we know, facts are only facts until irrefutable evidence is found that disproves it, as often happens.
You have to remember that Israel was in the most horrendous waxing and waning turmoil from the time of Pompey in -60, to about after the Bar Cochba War, that is around 200 years at least. It wasn’t safe to travel from one’s locality, or further except in large numbers, and an inchoate religion at the most turbulent period would have to take a back seat to the more important preservation of life. (like the story of Peter’s denial). Christianity was just one more splinter group from the parent Judaism, and kept a very low profile for more than a 100 years. It preserved Jewish customs except for a few beliefs which all the splinter groups had. Until the time of Bar Cochbah at least, they were at least fellow travellers, with Jewish leaders. I mentioned on this site some weeks ago that a sherd had been found, with a message from Bar-Cochba to his lieutenant, saying to go to a group, and if they won’t join our efforts , to put them in chains, That group has been regarded as the first Christians, although not named as such.
(My own belief is that early Christianity was largely composed of G-D Fearers, and not many Jews) The Gospels show an ignorance of many traditions, geological strata etc, and Palestine in general).
Social Histories are far better indicators of the times than any other accounts. In my opinion only of course. I don’t believe the N.T. was fabricated around 300, I believe that Eusebius almost certainly fabricated the Testimonium Flavianum around 300. Before him, there were several meticulous Christian historians and Church Fathers, who knew Josephus well, and that passage was never mentioned until Eusebius. Besides he became known for other “interpolations”. and plain forgeries. Also at that time and later, a saying emerged that “To falsify a text for the good of the Faith is no crime”….(paraphrased) Rather like Takhiya.
I grew up in Ireland, where there was a Church on almost every street…. I hated the smell of parrafin oil from the red perpetual lamps and used to hold my breath when passing. EVERYBODY would bend at the knees and make the cross, in a crowded street it would look like a group of puppets bobbing up and down.
Your account of your Chanukah items and various observances aroused my curiosity. Maybe you’re just a collector of religious symbols, with no religious attachment to same
.
I agree with you…we cannot discuss religion, and let us close this subject from now.. At the same time please know that I am NO expert, and the above are my opinions only.
@ Edgar G.:
Hi, Edgar.
I’m not into religion as deeply as you suppose. I haven’t been a church member for 27 years; and for most of that time, I didn’t “go to church” even once a year.
As for your question about Judaism, I don’t consider modern Judaism to be any more the “original” than Christianity. You heartily disagree, of course, but I believe the New Testament was completely written down before 100 CE, whereas Mishnah wasn’t published until after 180 AD. For several centuries after the fall of Har HaBait, BOTH our denominations/ schisms/ religions (call them what you will) were radically changing.
I would discuss this further; but since you believe the NT was fabricated around 300 CE, we can’t even get to square one on the matter.
If you told me before, I’d forgotten you were from Wisconsin. I was born and raised there, and studied Jewish History for a semester at UW-Milwaukee. I grew up on the South Side of Milwaukee, where there were –ZERO– Jews. The last time I lived in that neighborhood, you could buy czarnina (blood soup) at Krakowia Restaurant — talk about treif! On average, I kid you not, there was a tavern on every street corner, and a Catholic church every five short city blocks.
There’s been a lot of water under the bridge, since those days.
Shalom shalom 🙂
@ Michael S:
There is only one reply to this…..PHEW……!! To follow your peregrinations meant that I was still back in Wisconsin when you had already reached Oregon. To be so deeply into religion as religion, and not feel that Judaism is the true and original of all the Christian offshoots you mention, is something I don’t really understand. Although I have my own opinion of the reason.
I recall one time when I was being persecuted with religious doorknockers, Perhaps Mormon but there were a couple of others too. I was always ready to discuss religion, and they always said that they would have to come back bringing an elder. They didn’t.
My K.O. question to them was always “Your religion stems from the original Judaism, and if you believe it’s faulty, what chance is there that the offshoot, your own belief, is correct….? 100% no chance.”. When I met my wife, she was a member of the Plymouth Brethren, her whole family being very prominent, and all her friends etc, you know how secluded into themselves they are. It was that question which caused her to examine her belief, go around to other churches and examine them, and then start digging into the original, Judaism. She was converted by a Satmar Rebbe. No trouble at all, it was easy for her. We were married in Israel.
@ Edgar G.:
Hi again, Edgar
Boy, did I take your advice! Went for a walk after dinner with the Mrs., then sat in the recliner with one of those back massaging gizmos. I fell asleep in some sort of ecstasy. Is that living, or what? Now, to get back to:
“What denomination are you, to have such items as a large part of your December religious observance.”
What denomination am I? I guess that means “What do people call me?” I have no idea what they call me. The last time I carried my religion on an ID was in the US Army, where I bore an “R” for “Roman Catholic”. Celebrating Hanukkah is not a usual Catholic observance, so I suppose there’s a disconnect there.
Once one is a Catholic, it’s pretty hard to become a “non-Catholic”, unless the archdiocese loses your baptismal certificate. Concerning December observances, I celebrated Christmas with my mother in December, 1972. The next winter, I was tree-planting in the mountains at Christmas time. I was part of a non-denominational Christian commune then; there was no celebration, because we were working. The following year, I was part of a “Jesus Only” Pentecostal church, which viewed Christmas as a pagan holiday. I was living with my mother at the time, so there was much friction. The following year, my wife and I weren’t part of any church, and didn’t celebrate anything.The next Christmas, our daughter had come along, and we spent Christmas at the movies, watching “Feivel” — a cartoon adaptation of “Fiddler on the Roof”.
Baptists. The first time I was in a Baptist church, was in a Black church in California I think that was 1971. I went there with a hippie couple I had met on weekend leave. We were pretty much the only White people there. That’s it. Several months later, when I was part of the Christian commune, I visited a White Southern Baptist church a couple of times. We used to make our rounds of the local churches on Sundays — all but the Catholic church, which our presiding elder said we shouldn’t go to. Lots of denominations — mostly Presbyterian, but also So. Baptist, Assembly of God, Seventh-Day Adventist, Foursquare Gospel — that’s all we had, in that neck of the woods.
Jews. A group of Jewish lawyers helped me get out of the Army. They were not old nor bald, and seemed pretty irreligious. After the Army, I ended up with a commune that was about half Jewish, and even helped build a synagogue. I think they were to Judaism, what the Rastafarians are to Christianity. A year or so after I moved over to the Christian commune, a couple of rabbis came to lead them. Interestingly, I know those rabbis, because they also moved up to Oregon around the time I did.
The Jesus Movement. I met Jesus in the forest in California in 1973. By this, I mean I actually met him, felt his hand on my shoulder. No preacher was involved: I was alone, lost, very malnourished and in danger of hypothermia. Was I hallucinating? That’s anyone’s call. Suffice to say, my life turned around in that instant, 180º, so the experience was and still is quite real to me.
What denomination was this Jesus part of? He didn’t say. Several months beforehand, I had read the entire New Testament; so my “conversion” consisted of 1. believing the Bible is true, and particularly, 2. believing that Jesus was God’s agent. With the touch on the shoulder, you can add 3. believing that Jesus rose from the dead and was, in fact, alive! If you read the New Testament, you will see that those are actually the criteria of becoming a “Christian”.
I joined a Christian commune a few days after that, which was non-denominational. Our bank account was in the name of “The Body of Christ, and Members in Particular”. I got baptized while living with them; but we didn’t see this as initiation into any denomination; we just did it in obedience, because the Bible said to do it. By joining that group, I became part of the “Jesus Movement”. My closest friends there were Catholics, Protestants and Jews.
“Jesus-Only” Pentecostals. I met my Lutheran wife in a J-O Pentecostal church. You might say I “rescued” her from it, because they were a pretty wild bunch. I did the books there, and later helped close the place down after the pastor ran off. Then we were on our own, “denominational orphans”. We continued in the Bible, Old Testament and New, reading it cover-to-cover several times as a couple. We put our faith in the God of Israel, and He prospered us.
Jesus Movement, again. After a while, we found ourselves with another prominent group in the JM. They had been part of the “Jesus People” on the West Coast, moved as a group to the Midwest, then disbanded. They were semi-communal; but we never went communal with them. Instead, the group I had been with before in California sent a “church-planting team” to my home town in Wisconsin. We spent several years, on-and-off, with churches in that group in Wisconsin and California. I got to know the general overseer quite well, an independent preacher who used to be Assembly of God. He was opposed to celebrating Christmas. By and by, though, other leaders in that group started decorating trees. Then the leader died; and within a matter of a few months, that church group also fell apart. Before it did, we had moved away, to Oregon.
I think you get the drift — We didn’t pick up our practices in any particular denomination. In Oregon, I was part of a Jewish conversion program for a year; but we had already been celebrating Hanukkah as a family for several years. At present, we’re actually part of THREE groups of believers — two house churches, and one Sunday group. This is part of a practice we had already begun in California. There is a wide range of beliefs among the brethren in those groups. We just accept one another, as God accepted us in Jesus; and we try to keep from quarreling . That’s about it.
Chag sameach 🙂
@ Michael S:
The enlightening thing I came across so far is that you actually were in High School before you ever heard there were Baptists, and from your description, it seems you didn’t believe him. (Yes there were/are a lot of short, bald Jews too) I expect other interesting info to come of especially when you are comfortable after a meal, and more likely to feel like talking. So, as the “WesternsontheWeb” spokesman Bob Terry says, “Put your boots up and relax”…..
@ Edgar G.:
Edgar,
This is such a long subject. Let me try. First of all, Christianity is CALLED a “confessional religion” — meaning, I imagine, that one becomes a Christian by “saying” some magic words, like “confessing Jesus as your lord and savior”. In reality, the vast majority of Christians “became” so at birth, just like nearly all Jews.
My native religion is Roman Catholic, which I “became”, 3½ years before I was born (My father had agreed to have the children raised Catholic, as a precondition of his marrying my mother). As a Catholic, I went to church regularly, was baptized and confirmed, etc.
I “knew” Lutherans (the only other religion I was familiar with) were going to “LImbo”, because they weren’t Catholics; but that I would likely go to Purgatory for several thousand years, to burn my sins away, and that after that, I would go to Heaven, where there were no Lutherans. I imagined that along the way from Purgatory to Heaven, I might catch a glance of all those Lutherans, sort of hanging out blissfully in the middle of nowhere; and that when I got to heaven, I would be greeted by my mother and nuns, all of them strict disciplinarians. This is the program I had apparently been wired for. I actually sort of preferred that I could have been a Lutheran, vegging out among the stars; but this was my lot, and I needed to accept it with fear and trembling.
By the way, I knew nothing about Jews, all the time I was growing up, except that my family doctors were Jewish. Jews, therefore, were all short, bald men. Outsitde of that, I knew nothing. In high school, a friend of mine told me he was “Baptist”. I saw his lips moving, but the words didn’t register. I knew in my “knower”, that there were actually only two kinds of people in the world, namely, Catholics and Lutherans; and I wasn’t about to let him confuse me.
This is getting too drawn out. Sorry. Supper’s cooking. I can smell it. I’ll finish my saga later. Have I said anything enlightening so far?
BTW. I appreciate your “strong drink” comment. I read somewhere that one commentator asked, “Should we bless the wine while it is unmixed? or after we’ve added water, SO WE CAN DRINK IT.
In the New Testament, Paul admonished Timothy to “no longer drink just water, but to add a little wine to it, for his oft infirmities”. Some years after reading this, I learned that red wine had twice the antibacterial effect as Pepto Bismol®. Then we started drinking it at meals, about a tablespoon in a glass of water. OK, sometimes we used more wine; but it was always highly cut; so when doctors asked, “Do you drink”? We would say “yes” and they would assume we were sots.
Supper… Shalom shalom.
@ Michael S:
Yes I have read several times and come across it very often reading social histories, that wine at meals was usually weakened with water, unless there was a carouse going on.
And I never thought that “strong drink” as mentioned in the Torah would have been anything but uncut wine. It would have had up to about a 15% alcohol content, and wine was used extensively in ancient Israel. Vineyards are everywhere mentioned in the Torah, and as you know feature prominently in the story of Naboth’s Vineyard., starring Ahab and Jezebel, along with worshipping Baal and etc……and nearly all the jugs and containers found by archaeologists are receptacles for wine or olive oil, as many have been found with, stamped on them, the contents, the makers, and the intended recipients. The same with so many of the 2000-2500 year old wrecked boats in the Med. found by underwater archaeologists or now and then, sports divers.
The most famous partaker of watered wine I’ve come across was Napoleon Buonaparte a very abstemious person.
Your comments on your menorahs and chanukiahs etc interest me. What denomination are you, to have such items as a large part of your December religious observance..
Forgive me for asking if you feel it’s intrusive.
@ Edgar G.:
Hi, Edgar
I appreciate your research. You have dug up the facts concerning candlesticks. While you’re in a digging mood, have you ever researched about “strong drink” in the Bible? That’s a King James rendering — I never did bother to look up the original Hebrew. Distilling is an ancient art; but it was used mainly for medicines and potions. I don’t think people drank what we would call “hard liquor” untill the past few centuries. I’m under the impression that wine was usually cut with water at meals (I read this in the Talmud somewhere, as well as an inference in the New Testament). “Strong drink”, I imagine, would have been full-strength wine. That’s just a matter of curiosity. I was wondering if you were versed on it.
I’m glad you weren’t with me in the church meeting last Sunday. Most congregants, I believe, are supportive of Israel, and hold views similar to mine. I was very surprized, therefore, when one man, one of many “elders” there, got up and VEHEMENTLY declared that “The Jews are our enemies!” It reminded me a lot, of what Jews here say about Christians; but in our church, it’s definitely a minority opinion. People treated the speaker and the matter respectfully, the way students USED TO (in the early 1970s) receive one another at UC-Berkeley. We were all able, therefore, to agree to disagree and part as friends. Still, I am very concerned, that there are Christians that hold such views.
Concerning the hanukiah, I obviously am under no obligation one way or another. We use the 8-position models, plus the shamash. We have a small version, which can only accomodate candles; and a larger version, on which one could actually use little oil lamps if one wanted (We only have three or four such lamps), or broad-based candles. We-ve been using battery-operated electric candles, so we can set the thing outdoors for the neighbors to see.
The last time I celebrated Christmas, was in 1971. For many years, there was friction between my mother and me over the matter, because she used to find pretexts to have my daughter come visit her and do the tree-and-present thing. After a while, I realized that if I just continued not to celebrate, it would eventually wear out my wife and daughter; so we began celebrating Hanukkah (and all the major Jewish feasts) as an alternative. When we started doing that, my family was pleased. I guess they think that “Hanukkah” is just a Jewish version of Christmas.
Shalom shalom 🙂
@ Michael S:
Apologies, I was just commenting on the “candlesticks” remark. I said that candles had actually been invented by that time, but a little later research told me that although invented many hundreds of years earlier, they were not in use in the Middle East until about the year 400, because of the abundance of olive oil. It was the same in other places in Europe where they had easy access to olive oil.,
@ Edgar G.:
Hi, Edgar.
I know they were oil lamps. I was just trying to keep up with current Jewush usage:
https://patch.com/new-jersey/wayne/ev–judaism-101
https://cdn.patch.com/users/236968/2011/09/T800x600/eb5dbda710abf3fb7d48649b21fc89d4.jpg
The Christian Bible literally calls them “lampstands”:
Rev. 1:12 ??? ????????? ??????? ??? ????? ???? ???????? ??? ???? ??? ?????????? ????? ???? ??????? ??????
“???????” translates, literally, as “lampstand”. If you must “correct” anyone, correct your own rabbis.
I’m afraid this Jewish site can’t handle Greek. Look it up yourself.
@ Edgar G.:
Hi, Edgar.
I know they were oil lamps. I was just trying to keep up with current Jewush usage:
https://patch.com/new-jersey/wayne/ev–judaism-101
https://cdn.patch.com/users/236968/2011/09/T800x600/eb5dbda710abf3fb7d48649b21fc89d4.jpg
The Christian Bible literally calls them “lampstands”:
Rev. 1:12 ??? ????????? ??????? ??? ????? ???? ???????? ??? ???? ??? ?????????? ????? ???? ??????? ??????
“???????” translates, literally, as “lampstand”. If you must “correct” anyone, correct your own rabbis.
@ Michael S:
Another point which I just noticed. That Revelations (Christian Bible) mentions thr seven golden “candlesticks”….. The fact is that they were NOT candlesticks at all. They are described as being containers of oil, placed on the golden arms of the Menorah, although wax candles had been invented by that time. And in fact, that accurate depiction of the Menorah on the Arch of Titus shows them this very way. I actually saw it myself when visiting Rome many years ago.
The containers would be removed by hand, filled with oil, and a wick and replaced, The Mishna names the official of the time who looked after the Menorah as Ben Babi.
@ ArnoldHarris:
Excuse me for butting into your interesting conversation, but I’m surprised to read in your post that Torah is everything to you and Talmud is nothing if it contradicts Torah. Talmud holds a very special position in relationship to Torah. It was recognised by the sages that because of outside pressures and other factors, Torah Law as it was written could not be maintained. Also, after so many centuries, and wars, and disruptions and lost records changing language and meanings, etc. they were not always sure exactly what the meaning of a Torah statement was. So they discussed them one by one, very deliberately and explored a zillion possible meanings. It was here that the Jewish mind allowed itself to become expanded to what is now a benefit for us all in the modern world of economics and technological success.
Sometimes items were discussed for hundreds of years and rival schoold of thought arose. Some Jews followed one, and other followed another train of belief.
BUT….. and this is what I want to point out to you…. no matter how the Torah din was interpreted, often tortuously, the PRINCIPLE as laid down in the Torah, was preserved in the outcome. Not always noticeable , but there.
In my youth, I had several years of heated and intense discussions with some notable published dayanim, about a few Torah dinim I was against, and this process I ‘ve posted above, was told to me, and explained step by step until I could see the progression, which began away from the Torah dictum, but wound it’s way back to the source.
If you’ve ever listened to an after-dinner wedding speech by a noted Rabbi, you might have heard this very same method. Starting off with what seems utterly unconnected to the to title of his subject, but winding here and there and ending up right at what he was expected to talk about from the beginning. I used to think they didn’t know what they were talking about, were stupid, but like a horse in a race wandering all over the field, , they would end the drasha coming in just in front, right at the winning post. .
*************************************************************************************************
On another point, about the huge Russian losses compared to the far fewer American casualties. You must take into HUGE consideration the weather in Russia, also the vast majority of the soldiers killed were raw conscripts with no training at all. I have a history of Stalingrad specifically, and the writer was a survivor. Also I’ve read the same elsewhere. He said that they were cannon fodder, lined up behind the fighting lines, and when they were needed they were pushed forward in groups, like being fed into a grain mill. They had no equipment, not weapons but their instructions were to take the rifle and ammunition, from any dead fighter they passed by on the way to their own (doom) fighting position. They were acrtually struggling to walk over the piles of dead bodies. The Commissars were at the back doing all the pushing.
@ ArnoldHarris:
That’s cause the Japanese are the lost tenth tribe. Evidence abounds. The Japanese variant of the Buddha of Compassion is the Amida, the oldest Jewish prayer. After the first month of the Jewish calendar, Nissan, we have in rapid succession the months of Toyota, Lexus, Mitsubishi, Honda, and Suzuki. The reason that Lox and Sushi look so similar is that their points of origin — as the crow flies — are so close. Lox comes from Murray’s and Sushi comes from Ollies just two doors down. Ten block South the lines converge at Zabar’s Deli where the sushi and the lox are on the same shelf, right before the egg salad. That’s the American Jewish contribution. In Russia we had steppes, in America we have shelves. And then of course, the great Japanese-Jewish songster Eddie Cantor, “If you knew sushi, like I know sushi, oy, oy, oy.”
Eddie Cantor- If You Knew Susie
misspelled
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InTuAeGjr4M
@ Michael S:
I have lived more than 83 years without manifesting much interest in or curiosity about Christianity, which, in any case, I regard as little more than a continuance of the ancient Greek religions such as the one that Antiochus Epiphenes unsuccessfully tried to jam down Jewish throats in the events that up to the Chanuka which has celebrated a complete victory over them ever since that time.
As for my spelling of “Tora”, to which I assume you were referring, my wife and I studied it sufficiently in Israel to enable me at least to read Ivrit, the Jewish national language. T-O-R-A is exactly the way it is spelled, and is exactly the way she and I both pronounce it. Therefore, that is the way we spell it.
Arnold Harris, Outspeaker
@ Michael S:
So many theories.
http://www.rabbilevin.net/hanukkah-what-happened-to-the-menorah/
https://www.haaretz.com/archaeology/.premium-1.760257
Oh well, in the putative words of the patriarch, Groucho, “That’s what makes horse-racing.”
https://unitedwithisrael.org/the-menorah-vs-the-chanukiah/
Talmud or not? Shall we be Karaites and sit in the dark on Shabbat or get the horse breeder’s guide?
A Day at the Races 1937 720-HD.mkv.mp4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqypaqLEfM8
@ ArnoldHarris:
Torah! Torah! Torah!
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/9NnhxjTzXC4/movieposter.jpg
(Spelling matters 🙂
Far be it from me, to uphold or criticize the ravim. For the religiously curious, a “seven-part menorah” is mentioned in the Christian book of Revelation:
Rev. 1:
[19] Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;
[20] The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.
In this case, the “stem” of the menorah was the Roman province of Asia (Western Turkey), where the congregations John wrote to were located.
This is not “replacement” theology, which some Christians indulge in. Actually, it’s “supplemental theology”; for the nation of Israel is treated in Revelation as existing alongside the church. Examples:
Rev. 11:
[3] And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
[4] These are the TWO olive trees, and the TWO candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
Also, though Jesus had told the apostles that they would “sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel”, Revelation describes 24 thrones:
Rev. 11:
[15] And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
[16] And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
In the Temple, the seven-membered menorah (representing the spirits of God, when lit) shone light on the twelve loaves of shewbread (representing the tribes of Israel). It was the priest’s daily duty, to keep the menorah lit and the shewbread replenished. It might be because of this symbolism, that the ravim wanted the seven-membered menorah to be unique to the Temple.
@ Sebastien Zorn:
‘Putin said, “Oops, sorry, we weren’t paying attention.”’
I’m of the opinion, that Putin pays very close attention to everything he does. Right now, he’s busy wrapping up things in Syria and shifting his focus to Egypt. He gifted them concerning the French Mistrals and with helping Egypt build its nuclear program; and more recently, he got concessions from Egypt to use an airbase there. Putin also paved the way diplomatically in Libya, openly siding with renegade General Haftar against the EC-backed Tripoli government.
Libya looks ready to become Syria II for the Russians, another “land-based aircraft carrier”, ever farther afield. Russia only has one crappy, old aircraft carrier; but with basing rights in Alexandria and Cam Ranh Bay, he is becoming a “blue water” power.
All that said, Putin doesn’t have much of an economy to back him up — before or after the huge cuts taken by him and his kleptocrats. China outclasses Russia about 4:1; and the West outclasses China 4:1. His real trump card is nuclear weapons. At the moment, OUR trump card is Trump. 🙂
But, let’s not forget who started the ball rolling in the modern era. As David Horowitz wrote, “Ideas Matter.”
“Napoleon Bonarparte’s Proclamation of the Jewish State” 1799
http://www.mideastweb.org/napoleon1799.htm
ArnoldHarris Said:
On the other hand, this is true as well:
“Who Saved Israel in 1947?
The usual answer is Truman—but it could just as easily be Stalin. In fact, thanks to Zionist diplomacy, it was both; and therein lies a lesson for the Jewish state today.”
https://mosaicmagazine.com/essay/2017/11/who-saved-israel-in-1947/
By the same token, I think America should honor Louis XVI and Marie Antoinette of France every July 4 for saving the American Revolution.
“It is fairly well-known that without the military and financial aid given by Louis XVI to the American colonists in their struggle for independence from Great Britain, our nation may never have arisen. The King of France was reluctant to go to war, recoiling from both the expense and the shedding of blood; he did so only when convinced that it would benefit France in the long run. Marie-Antoinette was initially against assisting the Americans; she thought it set a dangerous precedent to help the colonists rebel against their king. Nevertheless, once war was declared, she did not hesitate to embrace the joint cause of France and America. According to Lafayette she once greeted him by saying: “Give me news of our good Americans, of our dear Republicans!”
http://teaattrianon.blogspot.com/2008/07/louis-xvi-and-american-independence.html
Perhaps with cake. NY Cheese cake would probably be most appropriate.
@ ArnoldHarris:
Something new and different for Israpundit chatterers to chew on:
I’m sort of consumed with the concept of using a 7-branch menorah, smaller than the one those Roman imperial bastards stole from Jerusalem 2000 years ago, after they burned down the 2nd Temple, but of the same design, more or less.
Now I’m given to understand that the Jewish ravim who put together the Talmud and endlessly argued with one another about what they thought the Tora wanted us to do. So they claimed that use of the menorah of the Jewish nation and the Jewish state cannot be used outside the Jewish Temple.
But there hasn’t been another Jewish Temple in Jerusalem or anywhere else for 2000 years. And while I’m sitting around here waiting for them to build that third Temple of the Jewish nation, I want to celebrate the Jewish nation now, while I’m still alive to do just that.
In any case, Tora to my stubborn mind is everything. And to be consistent, Talmud to me is nothing, if it contradicts anything in the Tora.
So that’s what I intend to do. And if the ravim amid their endless disagreements don’t like it, they can lump it. Maybe if millions of other Jews did just that, they would stop arguing and get busy building that third Temple.
Arnold Harris, Outspeaker
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/239212
New Law needs to be implemented if it can be gotten past the Supreme Court
“Article 7a of the Basic Law allows candidates or tickets to be disqualified if, through either their stated aims or their actions, they reject Israel’s existence as a Jewish and democratic state, incite to racism or support armed struggle against Israel by an enemy country or a terrorist organization.”
read more: https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/editorial/1.777594
Funny, I thought this was also in the Basic Law,”anti- Zionist” or “racist” (lumped together) being the language which is how they railroaded Kahane — (they accused him of being “racist”) who said he found a way around it before he was assassinated — out of the Knesset.
It has been firmly established that moderate Muslim sects like the Sufis and Ahmadayas are not fed after midnight. That’s why they don’t succumb to Muslim rage.
Gremlins (1984). Stephen Spielberg producer/Joe Dante dir. – Trailer
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9DNOuEv7iI
It is interesting to note that while Russia and Czechoslovakia have both taken the position of recognizing West Jerusalem as Israel’s capital, Russia in April and Czechoslavia following Trump’s announcement, Russia criticized Trump but Czechoslavakia criticized those who critized Trump and supported his declaration even though they stopped short in their own declaration.
Russia critized Trump on the grounds that he was endangering the fragile balance and risking un-managemeable conflict. Well, that appears to be fizzling. Will they withdraw their objection? I doubt it. It’s just Russia’s usual opportunism like when they supported Obama’s objectionable UN resolution saying that that Jerusalem’s Holy sites were occupied territory and then when Israel confronted the Russian ambassador, he just sneered, “what’s the big deal” and then when that didn’t fly, Putin said, “Oops, sorry, we weren’t paying attention.”
I wonder why? The sanctions against Russia are going through anyway.
@ fmecklenburg:
Click on the menu item above “Jordan Option” and scroll down to the third post. It has all the videos.
How can I watch the Jordan Option Videos?
@ ArnoldHarris:
Found chapter nine of the book online which discusses the difficulties of meeting targets but doesn’t minimize its importance or the extent to which the British and American forces had to fight to establish a supply line.
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uiug.30112057391242;view=1up;seq=1
and here is an excerpt from another article that refers to it but bolsters my argument
Uh huh. Before the war, as well, the entire Soviet Economy and infrastructure would never have been developed without massive investment from foreign companies to whom they gave not owneship but a fixed profit during the depression.
Stalin decimated the leadership of the armed forces through purges and wouldn’t believe his own sources about the coming invasion and so they were caught witht their pants down. He regularly shot or imprisoned anybody who gave him intelligence he didn’t like. They may have survived in spite of him.
Moreover, despite appearances he cultivated of being anti-Nazi but only signing the anti-agression pact to ward off the West’s attempt to appease him in order for him to invade the Soviet Union, he tried throughout the thirties to get an alliance with Nazi Germany going. And an alliance it was. He “repatriated” German Communists to Nazi Germany. I love the image as much as you do. But, I learned it was all crap. That’s why I’m not a Stalinist anymore.
Worst of all, despite public statements about anti-semitism being like cannibalism, etc. and setting up Yiddish language schools for a while that were really just an attempt at assimilation through infiltration using Jewish Communists, later discarded, he was always a virulent anti-semite. The posters of SU AND Nazi Germany are indistinguishable.
@ Sebastien Zorn:
SZ, I dislike repeating myself, but…
“Altogether, 26 million Soviet citizens lost their lives at the hands of the same enemy. That 26 million comprises 15 million Soviet citizens and 11 million Soviet soldiers.
In starkest of all possible contrasts are the comparatively miniscule 405,399 US military deaths in all theaters of the war during 1941-1945.”
As for Stalin and his stooges telling Roosevelt, Churchill, and visiting American and British news reporters how much the USSR valued all the Lend-Lease aid they had been getting, that in fact was one of his favorite tricks he learned to use early on when dealing with the useful idiot leaders of the Western allies. Read in detail all about his meetings with Roosevelt and Churchill at Teheran in November 1943 and Yalta in January 1945, then with Truman, Churchill, and Attlee at Potsdam in July 1945.
For whatever the results he got from smooth-talking the idiots, he never ever made a political or military move not based on real muscle.
Far and above all else, Stalin was the smartest national leader in the world during those years, and he never ever operated from a standpoint of weakness.
I wish to hell and back that the Jewish nation had such a toughest of all possible leaders.
I also think the time has come for the great Russian nation to restore the name of the sight of the greatest single battle of history — Stalingrad. If nor no other reason, as a memorial to the 11 million soldiers of the great Soviet armies and their countries 15 million civilians who lost their lives in the greatest conflict of all the ages.
Arnold Harris, Outspeaker
In celebration of this great day:
Itzhak Perlman, Pinchas Zukerman, Zubin Mehta, Israel Philharmonic – Mozart Sinfonia Concertante – Part 1
https://youtu.be/szMu8si_YYQ
Itzhak Perlman, Pinchas Zukerman, Zubin Mehta – Mozart Sinfonia Concertante – Part 2 + Bonus
https://youtu.be/BFTVZ0AVgM8
Yes, unless I misread, you spoke of the greater sacrifice that the USSR made in the last post, which is true. But, in your earlier post, you said that though the trucks were useful, the aid wasn’t essential to victory. Did you read the Wikipedia article about the U.S. and British Aid and, in particular, the excerpts from Stalin, himself, about how crucial the aid was?
@ Sebastien Zorn:
SZ, exactly how does this most recent response to me relate to our mutual discussion about the USSR’ s role in the total victory of the Allied alliance in World War 2? Did you take the time to read my response?
Arnold Harris, Outspeaker
@ ArnoldHarris:
Yes, but you said we can just do it alone. We can and we should. If we don’t, nobody will do it for us. I agree. But, we shouldn’t sneeze at whatever help we can get. Fighting delegitimization is the main help Israel has gotten from the US, albeit in a blowing hot and cold sort of way. Otherwise, Israel doesn’t need the US for much. The US needs Israel more, actually. So, yes, this is big. The Dershowitz article was actually right on target, also, about how this pushes back against Obama’s enabling of the UN resolution saying that Jerusalem’s holy sites are occupied. I just looked at Buzz Flash, a liberal rag online, and they actually had an article about this referring to all of Jerusalem as illegally occupied! What’s just as big, is that it looks as though nobody cares enough to listen to Abbas, except the KIng of Jordan and Erdogan, who are, themselves, somewhat isolated, now. Demonstrations have been tiny. I find myself wondering if Mudar Zahran bears some responsibility for that. If you recall, there was another situation in which he said he exerted his influence that way among the Palestinian Arab masses.
@ Sebastien Zorn:
SZ,
The argument here is not merely about Roosevelt’s Lend-Lease shipment of US aliies inluding Britiain and the USSR. The broader consideration is whose fighting forces actually won the war against Adolf Hitler and his allies.
For each and every US soldier killed in combat fighting Hitler in Europe, 80 Soviet fighting men and women lost their lives fighting the same enemy. Note that Russian women fought effectively in the USSR as some of the world’s best fighter pilots, deadly snipers, and in other military capacities.
Altogether, 26 million Soviet citizens lost their lives at the hands of the same enemy. That 26 million comprises 15 million Soviet citizens and 11 million Soviet soldiers.
In starkest of all possible contrasts are the comparatively miniscule 405,399 US military deaths in all theaters of the war during 1941-1945.
Based on his own comments in “Crusade in Europe”, General of the Armies Dwight David Eisenhower would have classified Russia’s 26 million human contributions to the Allied victory as the supreme factory not only in winning the war for the Allies, but even making it possible for his command to break its way onto the Normandy beaches that all but magical and simultaneously deadly day on June 4, 1944.
One more note about Ike. In the concluding chapters of his book, he related that shortly after the fighting ended, in a flight from Moscow back to Berlin, he witnessed from the air the utter destruction of every building, not a stick of which was left standing. That flight over the Bloodlands told him everything that had happened in the all but overwhelming Russian national struggle against the Hitlerite enemies of most of mankind.
Arnold Harris, Outspeaker
@ ArnoldHarris:
This article would disagree and provides logistical detail. And:
“According to the Russian historian Boris Vadimovich Sokolov, Lend-Lease had a crucial role in winning the war:
On the whole the following conclusion can be drawn: that without these Western shipments under Lend-Lease the Soviet Union not only would not have been able to win the Great Patriotic War, it would not have been able even to oppose the German invaders, since it could not itself produce sufficient quantities of arms and military equipment or adequate supplies of fuel and ammunition. The Soviet authorities were well aware of this dependency on Lend-Lease. Thus, Stalin told Harry Hopkins [FDR’s emissary to Moscow in July 1941] that the U.S.S.R. could not match Germany’s might as an occupier of Europe and its resources.[24]
Nikita Khrushchev, having served as a military commissar and intermediary between Stalin and his generals during the war, addressed directly the significance of Lend-lease aid in his memoirs:
I would like to express my candid opinion about Stalin’s views on whether the Red Army and the Soviet Union could have coped with Nazi Germany and survived the war without aid from the United States and Britain. First, I would like to tell about some remarks Stalin made and repeated several times when we were “discussing freely” among ourselves. He stated bluntly that if the United States had not helped us, we would not have won the war. If we had had to fight Nazi Germany one on one, we could not have stood up against Germany’s pressure, and we would have lost the war.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lend-Lease
@ Sebastien Zorn:
SZ,
I’m not trying to put you down. But there’s a lot of real history one must wade through to learn details of what was happening in WW2. Check out “Command Decisions” published by the Center of Military History, Department of the Army, Washington DC. It’s Library of Congress number is 59-60007. You can also google it online.
Go to Chapter 9, “The Persian Corridor As Route for Aid to the USSR, by Robert W Coakley.
It will provide you some stronger and perhaps meaningful insights about the topic you cited yesterday.
I have owned and carefully read a copy of Command Decisions since 1959, along with much — very much — else.
Arnold Harris, Outspeaker
@ Sebastien Zorn
:
US Lend-Lease to the USSR?
Stalin’s arms factories, by then moved eastward to deep in the Ural Mountains far out of reach of Nazi Germany’s Luftwaffe as well as their Wehrmacht, were running 24 hours a day, producing what proved to be the best tanks in the world, probably the best artillery, mobile rocket launchers, pursuit and tank-killer aircraft, and just about everything else the needed for their military ordnance.
What the Soviets got from the USA that was uniquely useful were the 2-1/2-ton “Deuce and a half” cargo trucks which put the Studebaker name on the worldwide map. That plus a lot of food, including enough canned hams to feed their soldiers, civilian armaments plant workers, and not a few other civilians. But the Russians made and used most of their own armaments, and that was what put the Soviet Army as far west as the Elbe River and induced Adolf Hitler to change his status from Reichsfuehrer to toasted corpse.
In any case, Marshal Zhukov’s massed armies broke the back of the German armies at Stalingrad and Kursk before the USA was able to set up a supply line from the head of the Persian Gulf, thence by rail northward deep into Russia. All that took place late in 1943. by which time the Soviet Army had retaken most of the Nazi-occupied lands in the westernmost parts of the USSR, as far west as Kiev on the Dnieper River, for example.
Don’t fool yourself about any of this. Stalin, his geography-protected arms factories, and the largest and toughest-fighting armies in the world would have won their part of World War II irrespective of what Roosevelt and Churchill sent them. And if the US, British and Canadian armies had not pushed eastward to the Elbe River as fast as they did in April 1945, the Soviet armies would have rolled westward. Who knows how far?
The German military knew what was coming as soon as the Wehrmacht’s big 6th Army got caught in a giagantic rat-trap in November 1942. As the certain outcome of that battle became clear, key member of the German General Staff began plotting ways and means of getting rid of Hitler and ending the war as soon as possible. We all know what happened on July 20 1944 in Hitler’s command post in the woods of East Prussia, when a single smuggled British bomb emplaced and triggered by a high-ranking German officer almost killed the bastard.
Certainly, the lend-lease aid helped, but Stalin’s tough nation and his even tougher Soviet armies had broken the back of the Nazi armies and had broken the spirit of the Nazi generals, before most of that lend-lease aid even arrived at their ports and put to use where it counted.
Read Alexander Werth’s “Russia at War, 1941-1945”. He was there, he understood Russian, and I think his judgement was a lot clearer than most other western observers who had access to the facts.
Arnold Harris, Outspeaker
@ ArnoldHarris:
Not an exception.
http://m.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-Ed-Contributors/Rome-The-Maccabee-miscalculation-333644
What would have happened to the Soviet Union without American Lend Lease program, do you suppose? Can you think of a single revolution in history that succeeded without outside assistance?
Trump recognizing Jerusalem as Israel’s capital and moving the embassy there and the House passing the Taylor Force Act is a matter of complete indifference to you then, I presume?
Maccabees might be an exception. Not sure.
@ Sebastien Zorn:
As I have written before, endlessly, more or less:
I am not interested in Jewish miracles that depend upon the good will of this or that ancient Persian king or emperor — or some modern or current counterpart such as Trump, Putin or whichever chinaman runs that particular empire. All such supposed miracles count for little or nothing over the fullness of time.
Independence means you are on your own for better or worse, and as such, you are totally responsible for your well-being.
If you lack the power to maintain that independence, or much worse, if you lack the willpower to use that independence, then you have nothing whatsoever, and you are just fooling yourselves with fairy tales.
Arnold Harris, Outspeaker
@ yamit82:
Today, Mordechai and Esther would be expelled from the Knesset as racists and tried, convicted and imprisoned by the Israeli Supreme Court as mass murderers.
As would Judas Maccabee, no doubt. He would also be accused of intolerable religious intolerance. Remember, his first victim was a Hellenist Jew.
There’s a Monty Python sketch that has King Arthur being arrested in the present.
@ Sebastien Zorn:
JEWISH DEFENSE LEAGUE OF SHUSHAN HABIRA
@ ArnoldHarris:
Oh, I don’t know. This is the part that always gets sanitized out, but it’s there nonetheless. Works for me.