Chit Chat

By Ted Belman

From now on comments on every post must relate to the content of the post.

Comments that don’t relate to the post must go here.

Any person who contravenes this demand will be put on moderation. Also their offending comment will be trashed.

The reason for this demand is so that people who want to read comments which pertain to the post, don’t have to wade through the chatter.

Everyone will be happier.

April 16, 2020 | 7,783 Comments »

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50 Comments / 7783 Comments

  1. dweller Said:

    What part of the word, “YOUR,” do you not understand?

    He knows what he means by using the term he introduced.

    I want to know what he means by it.

    What you may or may not understand it to mean is not pertinent to this particular exchange.

    What part of open forum where everyone can voice opinions or but in don’t you understand? You have used that excuse to butt into my conversions myriads of times haven’t you AH???

    You christians are always telling others what do think but ignore them yourselves. Do as you say but not as you do fegele ?????
    😛 😛 😛 😛 LOLROFLMAO

  2. dweller Said:

    bernard ross:

    “There is no Jewish attestation or support of the NT narrative as factual.”

    Oh, yes, there is.

    “Lets see it”

    John 19:35; 21:24

    What?????? You are really insane!!!!
    This is your Jewish proof text???? Not Zeus, Not Mithra shit there is a whole pantheon of Jewish proof texts like yours that you ignored. I wonder why??? Who wrote the Gospel of John? (Author unknown Name placed by the Church at nicea) You claim not to accept the outcomes of Nicea? Or do you just cherry pick those you like and those you don’t? Religion and theology by vote and by accounts a narrow majority won the day… John was not a real person and was not Jewish in fact if anything he was a Jew Hater that would make Luther and Hitler proud.

    Jewish source??? 😛 😛 😛 😛 LOLROFLMAO
    Let’s play dweller:
    Who was John???
    Prove it!!!
    Prove he was Jewish!!
    Prove he wrote what is claimed without error!!
    Why should anyone accept John’s version over anyother gospel where there is contradictions? John was unawhere of virgin birth so did it happen or not? Paul rejected the virgin birth claim as did Mark??? Seems you have a narrative fixed and chose from each gospel support for your own positions and ignore the contradictions and have the temerity to call it truth??? Yes you are stupid and intellectually corrupted and dishonest.

    My point is that yu cannot base a single doctrinal belief you adhere to that is based on Jewish scripture thought and beliefs. Not a single one of importance. You accept fiction and myth in place of truth and intellectual honesty and integrity.

    You have reduced yourself to no more than an intellectual pygmy and an insane one at that.

    Your tactic of wearing your opponents down thru sophistry and circular reasoning has not moved Bernard an inch and it drives you crazy. He is totally focused and unmoved by your evasions and obfuscational tactics….Fun to watch 🙂

  3. @ mrg3105:

    The Hebrew Mind vs Western Mind

    “Hebraism and Hellenism – between these two points of influence moves our world.”

    Sources: Irrational Man, by William Barrett; Christianity With Power by Charles Kraft; Hebrew Thought Compared With Greek by Thorleif Boman; Judaism and Christianity – The Differences by Trude Weiss-Rosmarin, Our Father Abraham, by Marvin Wilson, God in Search of Man by Abraham Heschel.

    Note: I am not happy or agree with much written in the article but found the comparative illustration useful for discussion purposes.

    Not because I agree or disagree with any of it’s points of selection.

  4. @ bernard ross:

    “depends on givng his god a purpose”

    The Almighty doesn’t need to be ‘given’ a purpose.

    He is the Author of purpose.

    ” for going through the ridiculous process of breeding with a woman.”

    God did not ‘breed’ with a woman when He created Christ

    — any more than He ‘bred’ with the earth when He created Adam.

    “Hence we see the invention of his soton narrative whereby his god had to go through all that trouble of mating with women”

    Maybe YOUR ‘god’ mates with women.

    Mine doesn’t.

    — For one thing, He doesn’t have the equipment for it. Nor would it accomplish His purposes to do so (which is more to the point).

    ” creating a creature without sin who fights his devil.”

    Without sin, yes; but he did not fight the Adversary. By resisting temptation (as Adam before him had FAILED to do), he tempted haSatan to violate his lawful authority.

    ” Whew, I can see why they have to keep…”

    “They”??? — you know of somebody else who affirms what I said?

    “…constructing one lie after another”

    What ‘lie’?

    “Of course it can only fly on the basis of the ignorance of those it is directed towards. “

    Well, you most assuredly ARE ignorant — also thick as brick — so “they” must be on-track.

    “Jews quickly rejected [the ‘house of cards’] as absurd”

    Not so. Had Jews “quickly rejected it,” he wouldn’t have been killed.

    Harmless, marginal types don’t get ‘removed.’

    Potent, substantive ones — whose presence threatens the wielders of power — DO.

    It would appear that Logic wasn’t your strong suit. (What a shock.)

  5. @ yamit82:

    “Notice no heaven no hell, no savior, no messiah”

    Nothing about the mechanics of making babies either.

    So?

    “The written Torah is short on words and explanations and THIS IS AN INTELLECTUAL PURSUIT COMMANDED BY G-D!”

    Pursuit commanded by God indeed.

    But the assumption here that the pursuit is commanded to be an ‘intellectual’ one is entirely your own.

    Not that you’re the only one to buy into that silly, farblonjet proposition.

  6. @ mrg3105:

    “As it happens, although the Torah is not a Science book, there is within it a scientific proof of God’s existence. Good luck looking for it”

    Don’t need ‘luck’ looking for it.

    Don’t need to look.

    Don’t need ‘proof.’

    Don’t LACK for proof.

    I’ve had the proof — direct proof, consistent proof, conclusive proof, the BEST proof there can possibly be — for well over half-a-century:

    He punishes my sins.

    Q.E.D.

  7. @ yamit82:

    “The G_D worshiped by the jewish people fathered a child with a woman and resurrected him as the messiah?”

    “Partly right. Partly wrong. The child was the messiah even BEFORE his resurrection.”

    “Find such a basis in [Hebrew] scriptures! If you can’t it’s a lie”

    “Right after you find in the Hebrew scriptures where Cain’s wife came from.
    — If you can’t, it’s a . . . . ‘lie’…”

    “Where did Cain’s WiFi come from you ask? Since she was killed off in the flood and from the pages of history along with her potential biological line it hardly seems worth exploring the question”

    Probably died before the flood. But it IS worth exploring where she came from if you continue to insist, as you do, that an assertion w/o a basis to be found in the scriptures must be a ‘lie.’

    “there are speculative answers like there were humanoids that pre-existed the creation of Adam like Neanderthals.”

    You don’t know they preexisted Adam. Nor do you know that they were humans OR ‘humanoids.’

    “We know that humans mated with Neanderthals because human DNA shows almost 10% Neanderthal genes.”

    Maybe they were destroyed with the Flood.

    “Jewish sages viewed the whole book of Genesis as an allegory”

    An ‘allegory’ of what?

    In any case, as I’ve told you several times, there is no reason to assume that something understood to be symbolic (allegorical, metaphorical, etc, etc) may not be ALSO quite literal as well.

    If they didn’t take anything literally before Exodus 1, they’d be implying a curious beginning for the Jewish people. . . .

    “That’s why you can believe in gods shtupping Jewish women”

    But I don’t believe in that — and never have.

    THAT’S strictly your characterization, not mine.

    ” and pooping out messiahs

    Again, that’s YOUR characterization — and that of the vile creep who introduced & persists w/ that language here

    — which only goes to show that neither of you shlemazls is clear on the difference between the orifices on the FRONT of a woman’s body with the one on the BACK of it, and what each is (& isn’t) there for.

    “whose mission is to defeat devils…”

    Not to ‘defeat’ the Adversary (who actually defeats HIMSELF).

    JC never ‘fights’ him at any point in the narrative; not this time anyway (maybe upon his return; I’m less clear on that).

    By resisting all of Soton’s temptations, however, he created a situation where the Adversary was himself tempted to exceed his lawful mandate this one time.

    “What is your personal understanding of what a Jewish messiah is and give Jewish or biblical texts sources for that understanding and belief”

    Why? I think I’ve made clear what I think of quiz shows. . . .

  8. @ yamit82:

    “[Christ] allowed himself to be killed for what?”

    “To complete the mission for which he was born — to force the hand of haSoton. He tempted the Adversary (even as the latter tempts man); tempted him to exceed his lawful mandate. Think of it as a great, cosmic ‘Sting’ operation. No way it could happen w/o his dying; it was in the job description from Day One.”

    “does this story exist in your NT or did you make it up yourself.”

    “Did not make it up. How would I do that? (It would have to be based on something.)”

    “You still have not explained the source of your theological hypothesis and narratives. SOURCE pls.”

    BEFORE I CONTINUE W/ THIS EXCHANGE, I WANT IT CLEAR THAT I AM SIMPLY ANSWERING YOUR QUESTIONS; NOT ‘PUSHING’ ANYTHING ON ANYBODY HERE. I DON’T DO THAT — ANYWHERE.

    EVERY SO OFTEN SOMEBODY ACCUSES ME OF THAT CRAP. AND YOU HAVE NOT BEEN ABOVE MAKING THAT MORONICALLY DISINGENUOUS ALLEGATION YOURSELF. THE FACT IS THAT IF YOU WERE NOT ASKING ME THESE QUESTIONS, THERE WOULD BE NO REASON FOR ME TO REPLY ABOUT IT OR OTHERWISE MENTION THE MATTER.

    The answer to your [above] question is that I figured it out, pieced it together, based on elements in the gospels & some of the epistles. Also elements in the Apostles’ Creed — which ANTEDATES the Nicene Creed (and contains NO averral of JC’s ‘divinity,’ ‘incarnation,’ etc) — provide significant clues.

    “Here is a theological bone: Was Noah born in sin?”

    ” G-d called him a righteous man did he not?”

    Yes, He does use that word. But this does not mean he was a man returned to the state which Adam same had left behind when he disobeyed. If it did mean that, then Noach would not have died. He was blameless & upright in relation to the world; that does not, however, make him sinless, theologically innocent.

    If he were the latter, would he have been capable of getting drunk (along with everything that went with that)?

    Like Avraham, he walked w/ El Elyon and trusted Him, and his trust was counted to him as righteousness, in anticipation of the redemption which was to come.

    “Since according to the biblical Narrative all mankind descends from the only righteous man and his family is mankind according to your…narrative, still in sin with no hope of redemption except thru [JC]???”

    The redemptive work of JC is done. (One of his final phrases before leaving his body on the cross was, “It is accomplished!“)

    — It remains only for a man to accept it; to put in his claim for the benefit.

  9. @ yamit82:

    “And, what is now the Oral Transmission, can not be understood by Greek logic alone.”

    “Define your term, ‘Greek logic.’ If you’re going to insist on deploying the phrase, then I am entitled to your definition of it.”

    “Western Approach _______________Hebraic Approach”

    What part of the word, “YOUR,” do you not understand?

    He knows what he means by using the term he introduced.

    I want to know what he means by it.

    What you may or may not understand it to mean is not pertinent to this particular exchange.

  10. @ bernard ross:

    “There is no Jewish attestation or support of the NT narrative as factual.”

    Oh, yes, there is.

    “Lets see it”

    John 19:35; 21:24

    “A 2000 year period whereby Jewish rabbis have not mentioned that the [only true God] begot [the] messiah with a [Jewish] woman, have not attested to Dwellers FACT”

    Not so. They have. And not only rabbis.

    “If there were any Jewish attestation for the NT and the story of the Hebrew G-D begetting a son with a woman who was the jewish messiah I think we would have noticed over the 2000 years…”

    There are, and we have noticed them.

    “some rabbis might have written of their attestation and support as we have many jewish attestations including those heresies”

    Covering your butt, are you? If you’re going to write off the evidences of Jews supporting the narrative, as ‘heresies,’ then what’s the point in even providing you with the evidence?? Your claim is circular, designed to affirm what you want, and deny what you dislike — or define it out of existence. Your intended result is preset. You’re neither honest nor sincere; you’re phony.

    “but Dweller cannot figure out what ‘Jewish attestation or support’ means……”

    Of course not, because it’s not for me to figure out. That’s your responsibility.

    It’s your term and you’ve YET to define it as you use it, just as you’ve yet to define the term for which you use it as a substitute, “Jewish sources.”

    If I introduce a term to a discourse, then I take the responsibility of defining it so that anybody reading my words can be on the same page with me for the discussion; it’s not only common courtesy, but also a practical necessity.

    The only reason you don’t define this awkward phrase as you use it is that you realized only after you’d used it several times, that you can’t (any more than you could the earlier one). But you won’t admit it; it’s just that simple.

    “but they represent a fringe group”

    No more on the fringe than you. Probably less. (Quite a bit less, if my suspicions regarding you are correct.)

  11. @ bernard ross:

    “You have repeatedly been correcting me at every opportunity when I tried to pin you down on giving words to your narrative.”

    You don’t try ‘pinning me down.’

    What you try to do is put words in my mouth. So I correct you in regard to whatever seems most significant to that part of the thread among the myriad misstatements you put in even a single sentence.

    And I am still correcting you.

    You seem to think that if I don’t correct you right away in re some specific term you use, that you’re home free from that point onward. Wrong.

    Sometimes it just means that I haven’t yet seen the extent of your pathology, and haven’t realized yet that you’re using a term quite specifically, rather than just because it’s a handy approximation for the moment.

    You are a real nut case; I’m not exaggerating for effect. I think you’re LITERALLY as crazy as YOU think the word “union’ means the virgin birth/conception was sexual.

    “The statement was yours. I merely addressed the specific point you were ignoring. There is no way I would characterize the virgin birth/conception as a ‘union.’ To say that I did is ITSELF a lie. I repeat: show me a single instance of my using that kind of language (‘union’ or ‘mating’) in such a context. You can’t; I’ve never used it, not once in my life.

    And I repeat the characterization once again: the virgin birth/conception was in no way a ‘union’ or a ‘mating.’ No way that could happen w/ a non-physical & non-corporeal and thus non-sexual being having no need for a ‘mate’…”

    “everyone here knows that if you do not agree with part of a statement like this you reply to it.”

    “Depends on the circumstance. There may be any number of directions one might go with a remark. If you go with one possibility, you pass up another, at least for the time being. There’s always a trade-off to be made; it’s unavoidable.”

    “You had no problem with the word ‘UNION’ at that time ONLY with the adjective ‘Hebrew’ in front of woman. E,G. the next example I gave you, you clearly disagreed with part of it and so stated AS YOU USUALLY DO.”

    “Don’t give me this shit. A blog post is not a legal document, where every word not explicitly objected to at any given moment may be assumed ‘accepted.’

    The fact that in a given post, I ignore a word or phrase which is not germane to that part of the thread means nothing one way or another — only that I did not wish that it distract from the point(s) presently in contention. (And if I did pursue it, YOU’d eventually get ’round to calling my objection ‘tangential’ or ‘obfuscation.’)

    I ignore hundreds of posts in a single blogging session. Sometimes I ignore whole articles and their entire threads. Is this supposed to mean that I assent to everything said in them? Get a life.

    If you can find a comment of mine (among the thousands I’ve posted in this matter alone) in which I actually characterized the conception of Christ as a “union” or a “mating,” then produce the unedited post and its intact context. Otherwise, you can walk west till your hat floats, Bozo.”

    “If you had objected to the word ‘UNION’ at that time you would surely have stated that objection as it represented the MOST GERMANE issue of the discussion: that issue being the nature of [ruach elohim] begetting a Jewish messiah with a [Jewish] woman.”

    Not so. The most germane issue at that point was absolutely NOT the “nature” of the begetting, but rather the sheer FACT of it. The nature of it became an issue only later.

    When you first used the term, I gave you the benefit of the doubt in that I assumed you were merely using the term “union” in a general sense, and that you understood that I was not speaking of a god as a physical, corporeal being. (That’s WHY I’ve never used the word union in this context.)

    It was only by your persistent usage of the term “union” — even after I’d noted several times that this was not a carnal relationship — that it dawned on me that you were INDEED implying a sexual encounter when you used the word union.

    At which point I called you on it for the warped, despicable, uncircumcized putz you have shown yourself to be.

    “Tell us Dweller, which version is correct… “

    Tell us, Slime Bag, which you would prefer to do:

    Kiss my ass in Macy’s Window at High Noon on Valentine’s Day.

    Kiss my ass on YouTube any day of your choosing.

    Kiss my ass on the 50-yard line of Univ of Phoenix Stadium at halftime today.

    Just remember: Whichever option you select, you’ll be required to bring disinfectant

    — one never knows where some mouths have been.

  12. @ yamit82:
    I see that without this fantastical narrative of Dwellers there is no christianity. Everything hinges on linking christianity to the Hebrew bible for credibility. That link is dwellers narrative which you summarized in one sentence. The first link his nitzri as the jewish messiah. However, for that fantastical narrative to have credibility he must have the fantastical narrative of his virgin birth and all depends on givng his god a purpose for going through the ridiculous process of breeding with a woman. Hence we see the invention of his soton narrative whereby his god had to go through all that trouble of mating with women, creating a creature without sin who fights his devil. Whew, I can see why they have to keep constructing one lie after another to keep that house of cards afloat. Of course it can only fly on the basis of the ignorance of those it is directed towards. Jews quickly rejected it as absurd and threw in the the garbage but that rejection caused dwellers antecedents to keep killing Jews, just like mohammed.

  13. yamit82 Said:

    That’s why you can believe in gods shtupping Jewish women and pooping out messiahs whose mission is to defeat devils and ghouls, goblins and what not.

    😛 😛 😛 😛 LOLROFLMAO
    We are going to have to add this to the list of Dwellers descriptions of his “big bang theory” or should I say “big [catalyzing a process of development in the womb of] a woman theory”

  14. dweller Said:

    Christ] allowed himself to be killed for what?”

    “To complete the mission for which he was born — to force the hand of haSoton. He tempted the Adversary (even as the latter tempts man); tempted him to exceed his lawful mandate. Think of it as a great, cosmic ‘Sting’ operation. No way it could happen w/o his dying; it was in the job description from Day One.”

    “does this story exist in your NT or did you make it up yourself.”

    Did not make it up. How would I do that? (It would have to be based on something.)

    You still have not explained the source of your theological hypothesis and narratives. SOURCE pls.

    Here is a theological bone: Was Noah born in sin? G-d called him a righteous man did he not?

    Since according to the biblical Narrative all mankind descends from the only righteous man and his family is mankind according to your stupid Pagan Narratives and Greek Thought processes still in sin with no hope of redemption except thru Geezits???.

    Where did Cain’s WiFi come from you ask? Since she was killed off in the flood and from the pages of history along with her potential biological line it hardly seems worth exploring the question but there are speculative answers like there were humanoids that pre-existed the creation of Adam like Neanderthals. We know that humans mated with Neanderthals because human DNA shows almost 10% Neanderthal genes.
    Jewish sages viewed the whole book of Genesis as an allegory only you Greek christian pagans take it literally. That’s why you can believe in gods shtupping Jewish women and pooping out messiahs whose mission is to defeat devils and ghouls, goblins and what not.

    What is your personal understanding of what a Jewish messiah is and give Jewish or biblical texts sources for that understanding and belief

    I’ll bet you leave skid marks before you dare respond. 🙂

  15. @ dweller:

    “And, what is now the Oral Transmission, can not be understood by Greek logic alone.”

    Defineyour term, “Greek logic.”

    — If you’re going to insist on deploying the phrase, then I am entitled to your definition of it.

    Western Approach _______________Hebraic Approach

    Life analyzed in precise categories. ____________________Everything blurs into everything else.

    A split between natural & supernatu____________________Supernatural affects everything.

    Linear logic________________________________________Contextual or “block” logic

    “Rugged Individualism”______________________________Importance of being part of group

    Equality of persons__________________________________Value comes from place in hierarchies

    Freedom orientation_________________________________Security orientation

    Competition is good_________________________________Competition is evil (cooperation better)

    Man-centered universe______________________________God/tribe/family-centered universe

    Worth of person based on money/material possessions/power____________Worth derived from family relationships

    Biological life sacred________________________________Social life supremely important

    Chance + cause & effect limit what can happen__________God causes everything in his universe

    Man rules nature through understanding and
    applying laws of science_____________________God rules everything, so relationship with God determines how things turn out.

    Power over others achieved through business,
    politics and human organizations._____________Power over others is structured by social patterns ordained by God.

    All that exists is the material________________________The universe is filled with powerful spirit beings

    Linear time divided into neat segments.
    Each event is new.___________________________________Cyclical or spiraling time. Similar events constantly reoccur.

    History is recording facts
    objectively and chronologically.
    whether or not details are objective facts.___History is an attempt to preserve significant truths in meaningful or memorable ways

    Oriented to the near future______________________________Oriented to lessons of history

    Change is good = progress______________________________Change is bad = destruction of traditions

    Universe evolved by chance______________________________Universe created by God

    Universe dominated and controlled
    by science and technology_______________________God gave man stewardship over his earthly creation. Accountability to God.

    Material goods = measure of personal achievement______________Material goods = measure of God’s blessing

    Blind faith____________________________________Knowledge-based faith

    Time as points on straight line
    (“at this point in time…”_________________________Time determined by content (“In the day that the Lord did…”)

  16. bernard ross Said:

    “There is no Jewish attestation or support of the NT narrative as factual.”
    Dweller said:
    Define “Jewish attestation or support.”
    Bernard Ross Said:
    1-ATTESTATION: is the process of validating that something is true……
    2-SUPPORT: to maintain or advocate (a theory, principle, etc.).
    3-FACTUAL: actually occurring.

    bernard ross Said:

    it appears that the one word you have trouble understanding in the simple phrase is the word “JEWISH”. apparently you need to know what I mean by Jewish in order to say whether there is any JEWISH attestation or support for the NT as factual.

    bernard ross Said:

    If there were any Jewish attestation for the NT and the story of the Hebrew G-D begetting a son with a woman who was the jewish messiah I think we would have noticed over the 2000 years; some rabbis might have written of their attestation and support as we have many jewish attestations including those heresies considered contrary to Judaism, like shabtai zvi, etc.

    bernard ross Said:

    In 2000 years no jewish attestion of support of the NT as factual.
    In 2000 years no Jew has attested or supported the claim that the G_D of Israel had a son with a women and that son was the Jewish messiah.
    the Jews have firmly rejected that this ever took place….
    show me one jew who has attested to the facts of your NT god mating narratives other than the fictional characters in your fairy tale.

    bernard ross Said:

    LOL, when folks write fairy tales of gods catalyzing womens wombs and having jewish messiah sons there is no “entitlement to the presumption of veracity” that it actually occurred and as you can see that not a jew gave those assertions any “presumption of veracity” for the ensuing 2000 years, the Jews continued with their own narrative and ignored the christian narrative as false. They obviously took the authors to be novelists.

    dweller Said:

    There is no Jewish attestation or support of the NT narrative as factual.
    Dweller said:
    Oh, yes, there is.

    Lets see it , Barbie 😛 😛 😛
    dweller Said:

    No way the contents could have been taken for fiction. You see, unlike yourself, the Jews actually bothered to read the available writings which later became the NT canon.

    so after reading it they decided to ignore it and throw it in the garbage
    😛 😛 😛

    A 2000 year period whereby Jewish rabbis have not mentioned that the Hebrew G_D begot a Jewish messiah with a woman, have not attested to Dwellers “FACT”, have not been preaching this FACT in the synagogues, etc etc etc.

    but Dweller cannot figure out what “Jewish attestation or support” means…….

    but guess where we can find attestation and support for this narrative?
    Answer: For almost 2000 years those who called themselves Christians have attested to and supported the narrative of Hebrew G_D begetting a Jewish messiah with a Hebrew woman

    The only synagogues I have heard of that preach this obviously christian narrative is the Synaguogue of Jewish psychotics, lunatics and Jews for jesus….. but they represent a fringe group
    😛 😛 😛

  17. bernard ross Said:

    In other words: …..your Jewish messiah born of a virgin birth resulting from a union of the Hebrew G_D and a woman
    Dweller said: yes. a Hebrew God and a Hebrew woman.

    dweller Said:

    There is no way I would characterize the virgin birth/conception as a ‘union.’ To say that I did is ITSELF a lie.

    😛
    dweller Said:

    No lie. The statement was yours. I merely addressed the specific point you were ignoring. There is no way I would characterize the virgin birth/conception as a ‘union.’ ……..

    Bernard Ross said:
    “RUBBISH… everyone here knows that if you do not agree with part of a statement like this you reply to it.

    “You had no problem with the word ‘UNION’ at that time ONLY with the adjective ‘Hebrew’ in front of woman. ……….
    Dweller said:
    The fact that in a given post, I ignore a word or phrase which is not germane to that part of the thread means nothing one way or another — only that I did not wish that it distract from the point(s) presently in contention.

    😛 😛 😛
    Everyone here who is familiar with your obsessive compulsive need to correct others paraphrasing of your statements knows that you are now compounding lie upon lie.
    I specifically emboldened the words “In other words:” which preceded my question to you. I was rephrasing your prior comments in my words and the ONLY disagreement you had with my rendition of your comments was the adjective Hebrew.

    If you had objected to the word “UNION” at that time you would surely have stated that objection as it represented the MOST GERMANE issue of the discussion: that issue being the nature of your gods begetting a Jewish messiah with a woman. For you to be inferring now that the issue the word “UNION” was NOT GERMANE to the discussion is beyond the absurd. To lie to the forum that you were simply ignoring the word UNION in this MOST CONSISTENTLY GERMANE ISSUE is laughable. You have repeatedly been correcting me at every opportunity when I tried to pin you down on giving words to your narrative. I have repeatedly stated to you that the issue of your god begetting Jewish messiahs with women is the only assertion of the NT you present here that I need to know to determine that it is a fairy tale and NOW you say it is NOT GERMANE? 😛 😛 😛 😛

    Contrary to your ludicrous assertion here it appears that the only point of contention is the nature of the process expressed by the word UNION. It appears that it is exactly THAT WORD which is the MOST GERMANE of our conversation thread which refers to your god begetting Jewish messiahs with women.
    Perhaps you can substitute more variations in the brackets in place of the word UNION to which you now object?

    the Hebrew G_D [ mated with a] Hebrew woman which resulted in the virgin birth of the Jewish messiah.

    The Hebrew G_D [had a union with a] Hebrew woman which resulted in the virgin birth of the Jewish messiah

    The Hebrew G_D [catalyzed a process of development in the womb of a] Hebrew woman which resulted in the virgin birth of the Jewish messiah.

    Tell us Dweller, which version is correct… If you would like to substitute other words or phrases in the brackets please feel free to do so.

  18. dweller Said:

    “And, what is now the Oral Transmission, can not be understood by Greek logic alone.”

    Defineyour term, “Greek logic.”

    — If you’re going to insist on deploying the phrase, then I am entitled to your definition of it.

    Logos!!!!

  19. dweller Said:

    mrg3105:

    “What you have in the Xtian Bible is babble.”

    To one who is lost in his intellect, that may well be. Objectively speaking, however, it is nothing of the sort.

    “Torah CANNOT be translated.”

    Another of the favorite conceits of orthodoxy. Certainly there is always value in reading the printed word in its original language; that only stands to reason.

    However, to say it cannot be effectively translated is to come perilously close to making of it an IDOL, to taking it away from the common people, and to removing it to the realm of arcana , where it simply does not belong..

    “And, what is now the Oral Transmission, can not be understood by Greek logic alone.”

    Defineyour term, “Greek logic.”

    — If you’re going to insist on deploying the phrase, then I am entitled to your definition of it.

    “Therefore arguing with you is pointless.”

    Prov. 30:5, 6: “Every word of God is pure: He is a shield unto them who put their trust in Him. Add you not unto His words, lest He reprove you, and you be found a liar.”

    The Oral Law is not an addition to the Divine Words but rather an exposition of them. W/0ut the oral Law the Torah is unreadable no less comprehensible. The Rabbis aim was always to discern the intention of the written word and to apply it. This is their duty, to learn and study the Word of the Almighty is what we are commanded to do.

    Joshua was commanded:

    [Joshua 1:8] THIS BOOK OF THE LAW SHALL NOT DEPART OUT OF THY MOUTH; BUT THOU SHALT MEDITATE THEREIN DAY AND NIGHT, THAT THOU MAYEST OBSERVE TO DO ACCORDING TO ALL THAT IS WRITTEN THEREIN: FOR THEN THOU SHALT MAKE THY WAY PROSPEROUS, AND THEN THOU SHALT HAVE GOOD SUCCESS.

    Adding to the commandments would appear to be contrary to a written injunction which says:
    Deut. 4:2 says “You shall not add unto the word that I command you, neither shall you diminish from it, that you may keep the commandments of God that I command you.”
    Deut. 12:32 says, “What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: you shall not add thereto, nor diminish from it.

    The Oral Law is explaining of how existing Commandments must be kept. The Rabbis have made enactments based on the Commandments.

    The Case Against Individualistic Interpretation

    An individual Israelite had to be prepared to give up his/her life and not transgress certain commandments.
    Nevertheless the Bible emphasized the communal responsibility of the whole nation.
    They were to become,
    A KINGDOM OF PRIESTS, AND AN HOLY NATION [Exodus 19:6].
    [The word translated here as PRIESTS can also mean “rulers” but the point is the same].
    The emphasis is on the nation as a whole.

    The Community of Israel accepted an obligation to enforce the SAME Law on all members of the Community!

    [Deuteronomy 29:29] THE SECRET THINGS BELONG UNTO THE LORD OUR GOD: BUT THOSE THINGS WHICH ARE REVEALED BELONG UNTO US AND TO OUR CHILDREN FOR EVER, THAT WE MAY DO ALL THE WORDS OF THIS LAW.

    The Torah was given to the whole of Israel as a group and they were commanded to be mutually responsible for each other in keeping it.

    From a common sense point of view if the Almighty said something it had a specific meaning.
    The Torah was given to the whole community to be kept by all members of that community.
    It is not logical that one person should keep Pesach on one day and someone else on another, that one person eats kosher meat and another something else, that one person considers intercourse with certain women permitted and another forbids it.
    This sort of behavior may be OK in a democratic secular society where everyone has different religions.
    Originally however the Torah was given to the Israelites as one whole.
    The religion created the nation, obligated every member of that nation, and if anyone publicly transgressed the commandments they were to be punished by the community.

    [Deuteronomy 29:9] KEEP THEREFORE THE WORDS OF THIS COVENANT, AND DO THEM, THAT YE MAY PROSPER IN ALL THAT YE DO.

    [Deuteronomy 29:10] YE STAND THIS DAY ALL OF YOU BEFORE THE LORD YOUR GOD; YOUR CAPTAINS OF YOUR TRIBES, YOUR ELDERS, AND YOUR OFFICERS, WITH ALL THE MEN OF ISRAEL,

    [Deuteronomy 29:11] YOUR LITTLE ONES, YOUR WIVES, AND THY STRANGER THAT IS IN THY CAMP, FROM THE HEWER OF THY WOOD UNTO THE DRAWER OF THY WATER:

    [Deuteronomy 29:12] THAT THOU SHOULDEST ENTER INTO COVENANT WITH THE LORD THY GOD, AND INTO HIS OATH, WHICH THE LORD THY GOD MAKETH WITH THEE THIS DAY:

    [Deuteronomy 29:13] THAT HE MAY ESTABLISH THEE TO DAY FOR A PEOPLE UNTO HIMSELF, AND THAT HE MAY BE UNTO THEE A GOD, AS HE HATH SAID UNTO THEE, AND AS HE HATH SWORN UNTO THY FATHERS, TO ABRAHAM, TO ISAAC, AND TO JACOB.

    Throughout the Bible G-d speaks to the nation and about the nation.
    The individual (king, prophet, etc) is important in so far as they form part of the nation and are connected to it.
    They occupy their positions for the sake of the Hebrew people.
    There is a collective responsibility.
    The Community was obliged to enforce the Keeping of the Sabbath.
    One could be put to death for desecrating the Sabbath!

    [Exodus 31:15] SIX DAYS MAY WORK BE DONE; BUT IN THE SEVENTH IS THE SABBATH OF REST, HOLY TO THE LORD: WHOSOEVER DOETH ANY WORK IN THE SABBATH DAY, HE SHALL SURELY BE PUT TO DEATH.

    But what exactly would constitute Sabbath desecration?
    Look in the Bible. It is not so clear.
    It must however have been clear to someone.
    The Almighty would NOT have given us commandments if HE did not expect us to keep them.

    Judges and Sages Commanded to Interpret the Bible

    Moses was commanded to appoint seventy elders to help him rule over the people (Numbers 11:16).
    There also existed a hierarchy of local judges over tens, hundreds, and thousands (Exodus 18:21).
    Any case too difficult at one level would be passed on upwards (Exodus 18:26).
    As in any legal system over time a body of precedents and legal principles developed telling in detail how the Commandments were to be put into practice.

    [In point of fact most of the Rabbinical injunctions are hinted at in the written Scriptures according to grammatical niceties and quirks of the Hebrew Language. A good portion of the Talmud is dedicated to clarifying the Law according to what the Biblical verses indicate.
    Even if this was not so however we would still be obliged to do as the Rabbis say.]

    In case of doubt the Israelites were commanded to go to the authorities and Sages that would exist in their time.

    [Deuteronomy 17:8] IF THERE ARISE A MATTER TOO HARD FOR THEE IN JUDGMENT, BETWEEN BLOOD AND BLOOD, BETWEEN PLEA AND PLEA, AND BETWEEN STROKE AND STROKE, BEING MATTERS OF CONTROVERSY WITHIN THY GATES: THEN SHALT THOU ARISE, AND GET THEE UP INTO THE PLACE WHICH THE LORD THY GOD SHALL CHOOSE;

    In case of doubt concerning any matter of the Law and its practical implications one had to make an effort (“ARISE”) and go to the recognized authority that existed.

    [Deuteronomy 17:9] AND THOU SHALT COME UNTO THE PRIESTS THE LEVITES, AND UNTO THE JUDGE THAT SHALL BE IN THOSE DAYS, AND ENQUIRE; AND THEY SHALL SHEW THEE THE SENTENCE OF JUDGMENT:

    The Priests, Levites, and/or simple Israelite Judge, whoever was in charge at the time, would make the decision usually after consultation with the others and in accordance with accepted tradition and well know laws of logical deduction applied to Biblical verses and derived from them. This was the foundation of what later became the Talmud.

    [Deuteronomy 17:10] AND THOU SHALT DO ACCORDING TO THE SENTENCE, WHICH THEY OF THAT PLACE WHICH THE LORD SHALL CHOOSE SHALL SHEW THEE; AND THOU SHALT OBSERVE TO DO ACCORDING TO ALL THAT THEY INFORM THEE:

    [Deuteronomy 17:11] ACCORDING TO THE SENTENCE OF THE LAW WHICH THEY SHALL TEACH THEE, AND ACCORDING TO THE JUDGMENT WHICH THEY SHALL TELL THEE, THOU SHALT DO: THOU SHALT NOT DECLINE FROM THE SENTENCE WHICH THEY SHALL SHEW THEE, TO THE RIGHT HAND, NOR TO THE LEFT.

    Even if one went to the Sages to decide how a commandment should be carried out and did not agree with what the Sages said you still had to obey them. This was the commandment.

    [Deuteronomy 17:12] AND THE MAN THAT WILL DO PRESUMPTUOUSLY, AND WILL NOT HEARKEN UNTO THE PRIEST THAT STANDETH TO MINISTER THERE BEFORE THE LORD THY GOD, OR UNTO THE JUDGE, EVEN THAT MAN SHALL DIE: AND THOU SHALT PUT AWAY THE EVIL FROM ISRAEL.

    [Deuteronomy 17:13] AND ALL THE PEOPLE SHALL HEAR, AND FEAR, AND DO NO MORE PRESUMPTUOUSLY.

    The Ten Tribes were Exiled for Inventing their own Religious Beliefs!

    It says:

    Isa. 8:20: “To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.”

    Notice no heaven no hell, no savior, no messiah, rewards and punishment in this life and rewadrs were that the Israelites would prosper and punished in that they would not prosper. G-d demands above all obedience to his laws and that requires of we Jews to study his words to derive the layers of meanings within them, The written Torah is short on words and explanations and THIS IS AN INTELLECTUAL PURSUIT COMMANDED BY G-D!!!! No touchy feely BS of you ignorant Pagan christians like yourself.

  20. In philosophy, term logic, also known as traditional logic or Aristotelian logic, is a loose name for the way of doing logic that began with Aristotle and that was dominant until the advent of modern predicate logic in the late nineteenth century.

    Torah can not be translated. This is not because some words may lack appropriate vocabulary equivalents in other languages, but because other languages lack the depth and use different characters to represent concepts and ideas found within letters, words, sentences and paragraphs. This only becomes apparent when the ‘written’ Torah and the ‘oral’ Torah are taken as a single construct.
    Yet even translating the Talmud doesn’t achieve ‘translation’.
    One actually requires a different mode of cognition.

    To know God means just that, to know He was, is and will be. Not the way TV evangelists ‘know’ God.

    As it happens, although the Torah is not a Science book, there is within it a scientific proof of God’s existence. Good luck looking for it 🙂

  21. @ mrg3105:

    “What you have in the Xtian Bible is babble.”

    To one who is lost in his intellect, that may well be. Objectively speaking, however, it is nothing of the sort.

    “Torah CANNOT be translated.”

    Another of the favorite conceits of orthodoxy. Certainly there is always value in reading the printed word in its original language; that only stands to reason.

    However, to say it cannot be effectively translated is to come perilously close to making of it an IDOL, to taking it away from the common people, and to removing it to the realm of arcana , where it simply does not belong.

    “And, what is now the Oral Transmission, can not be understood by Greek logic alone.”

    Defineyour term, “Greek logic.”

    — If you’re going to insist on deploying the phrase, then I am entitled to your definition of it.

    “Therefore arguing with you is pointless.”

    The reason your ‘arguing’ with me is pointless is that you don’t make arguments; you make pronunciamentos — which you rarely (if ever) substantiate, even when challenged to do so. Instead of responding with solid examples or evidence of your claims, you merely run on to make other pronunciamentos. It’s no way to conduct an exchange.

    “Not only do you not have the remotest idea about Torah, i.e. the culture of the People Israel…”

    Sir, YOU haven’t the remotest idea what I DO or DON’T know about either such matter.

    “you are arguing from a seriously fragmented and corrupted interpretation of this perspective, initially by the Hellenised Jews, later by the Xtianised Greeks, and later still by the even more confused Latins and Germans.”

    And PresentCompany is free of such confusions, is he? (Perhaps HE was raised on Alpha Centauri?)

    “And I think its cruel for Yamit and Bernard to ‘egg you on’ like this, engaging in these long and pointless debates.”

    If you truly opposed what those two turkeys do, you’d be telling THEM that, not me. Truth be told, you’re no better than they; the only difference is that your mishegasse is compounded by an added factor of incestuous intellectualization which has left you in an analytical cul-de-sac somewhere between your ears.

    “I think its better you know the sad truth of your futility.”

    “The sad truth of [my] futility” as regards that pair was apparent some years ago, but you needn’t suppose I write to persuade them.

    They provide a value in spite of their obnoxious intent, as they force me to question myself before replying; they force me to view things I’d heretofore taken for granted, and see them from another angle, even when they are patently insincere (which is typically the case); they force me to flesh out & articulate in writing things I had previously only sensed in a general way. And too, they keep my writing skills sharp. And that’s just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to the benefit I derive from their cretinous ‘eggings-on’ and compulsive clamorings.

    Morover, there are more readers of this blogsite than merely those who post on it — and these posts will remain in the archives long after they are written.

    “As to your claimed ‘Jewishness’. do not assume that having a Jewish mother automatically makes one Jewish.”

    You took the words right out of my mouth — but, as before, you directed them to the wrong party. YoursVeryTruly, as it happens, is quite clear on the concept. Never had any issues with ‘whether’ I was Jewish or what made me Jewish. Those who know me will readily tell you my identity was well-established before I ever met the mohel.

    “What makes someone Jewish is the knowing of God, and the ability to prove it.

    Your first clause is problematic — as there are goyim who know Him.

    But then, knowing Him has NOTHING to do with studying Him (or studying anything else) — or indeed with any other activity focused on the intellect.

    “Knowing Him” means being engaged in a perpetual & ongoing conversation with Him — and understanding that as we are NOT infinite like Him, we are likely, as a matter of course, to have quite a lot less to SAY in the exchange than He. Hence, practically speaking, “knowing Him” comes down to making a practice of listening to Him.

    So, since a gentile can know God, there must be something MORE or OTHER (than the knowing of God) to make one Jewish.

    And your second clause is narrishkeit — because to prove that one knows God, he would first have to ‘prove’ that God is real — a fool’s errand right from the jump. And (let us be frank) nobody is likely more amused at the proposition than the Father himself.

    “In this a six year old Jewish child used to be better than a professor of physics…”

    Still is better, I daresay (notwithstanding that, contrary to your second clause above, the child could never ‘prove’ that he knew God, now OR then).

    Certainly a six-yr-old is CLOSER to God, less encumbered by an overdeveloped intellect, the cares of adulthood, etc., than any physics prof. A six-yr-old senses the presence of Evil — viz., wickedness — more immediately than any physics prof (though the six-yr-old is correspondingly less capable of articulating his fear of it, or organizing himself to deal effectively with it).

    “Apparently God wants to see the effect of a bucket of ice-cold water flung as us in the middle of winter Russians claimed it can restore the dead to life You should try it”

    If I die, perhaps I will.

    ~ Shavua Tov ~

  22. dweller, some Greeks in the Ancient world got lucky because some really stupid Jews offered up the Torah to replace their silly philosophies. BUT, Greeks being Greeks, they wouldn’t learn other languages.

    What you have in the Xtian Bible is babble. Torah CANNOT be translated. And, what is now the Oral Transmission, can not be understood by Greek logic alone.

    Therefore arguing with you is pointless. Not only do you not have the remotest idea about Torah, i.e. the culture of the People Israel, you are arguing from a seriously fragmented and corrupted interpretation of this perspective, initially by the Hellenised Jews, later by the Xtianised Greeks, and later still by the even more confused Latins and Germans.

    I can’t even say that you are “barking up the wrong tree”, because you don’t even see a ‘tree’ 🙂

    And I think its cruel for Yamit and Bernard to ‘egg you on’ like this, engaging in these long and pointless debates. I think its better you know the sad truth of your futility.

    As to your claimed ‘Jewishness’. do not assume that having a Jewish mother automatically makes one Jewish. If that was the case, no one would have been left behind in Mitzrayim by Moshe rabbeinu.

    What makes someone Jewish is the knowing of God, and the ability to prove it. In this a six year old Jewish child used to be better than a professor of physics, but alas, as we drop to the last level of tumah, as a People this has been forgotten. Apparently God wants to see the effect of a bucket of ice-cold water flung as us in the middle of winter 🙂 Russians claimed it can restore the dead to life 🙂 You should try it 🙂 Anything that doesn’t kill you, makes you stronger…

  23. @ yamit82:

    And “over & over” what you “show this forum” is just what a self-deluded, paranoid sicko you are.

    “You just plagiarized my oft stated descriptions of you fegele.”

    It’s not ‘plagiarism’ to use common phrases. They were common long before YOU laid hands on ’em.

    “So like a stupid child you have been reduced to repeating my stated opinions of you at adversaries you can’t debate on the merits or lack of them.”

    Unlike yourself, I do debate the merits of what I believe (and don’t rely on published writers to do it for me), and when I give somebody a name, it ISN’T as a substitute for real argument but ALWAYS in addition to the argument.

    “Not only are you a stupid AH who can’t defend his beliefs on their merits you are infantile & puerile besides being a fegele.”

    I’d say that’s pure projection, in every particular — right down to the final shot in the sentence.

    “[Christ] allowed himself to be killed for what?”

    “To complete the mission for which he was born — to force the hand of haSoton. He tempted the Adversary (even as the latter tempts man); tempted him to exceed his lawful mandate. Think of it as a great, cosmic ‘Sting’ operation. No way it could happen w/o his dying; it was in the job description from Day One.”

    “does this story exist in your NT or did you make it up yourself.”

    Did not make it up. How would I do that? (It would have to be based on something.)

    “Satan was an agel messenger of G-d and could not operate on his own even if he had the will and power to do so.”

    Only because the Almighty restrains him. But when he overstepped his mandate, it was not a deliberate, rational decision; he had no choice. His original disobedience had left him compulsive (like man).

    However, his compulsiveness had never come into play since his fall — didn’t need to, as he had automatic rights to every soul that died — until he took this ONE soul; and Adonai permitted it, allowed him to take that soul w/ him into Sheol.

    The difference between men & angels is not that men have wills & angels don’t.

    The difference is that while both CAN sin, only man is capable of REPENTANCE. Only man has a physical, fleshly body to “cushion his fall” (metaphorically speaking). It is his great blessing, and it is this which makes him actually superior to the angels.

    Makes it possible for him to live in two worlds — instead of only one, like the angels & the animals.

    “To give [haSoton] such powers as you describe limits G-d”

    What ‘powers’ are you talking about me ‘giving’ him?

  24. @ yamit82:

    “No lie. The statement was yours. I merely addressed the specific point you were ignoring. There is no way I would characterize the virgin birth/conception as a ‘union.’ To say that I did is ITSELF a lie. I repeat: show me a single instance of my using that kind of language (‘union’ or ‘mating’) in such a context. You can’t; I’ve never used it, not once in my life.

    “How did you describe it with link to your description?”

    I didn’t. I speculated on how it likely happened:
    “This was not about Adonoi ‘breeding’ Himself to a woman; probably something more on the order of catalyzing a process of development in the womb.”

    “The grave of his biological father found in Germany.”

    Was that the one with the image of the Virgin Mary emblazened on a grilled cheese sandwich that was buried with it?

    “The G_D worshiped by the jewish people fathered a child with a woman and resurrected him as the messiah?”

    “Partly right. Partly wrong. The child was the messiah even BEFORE his resurrection.”

    “Find such a basis in [Hebrew] scriptures! If you can’t it’s a lie”

    Right after you find in the Hebrew scriptures where Cain’s wife came from.

    — If you can’t, it’s a . . . . ‘lie.’

    “I merely realize just how MUCH of a nut case you really are, that you would press such characterizations.”

    “You believe yourself to be sane?”

    I know I’m sane; eminently sane.

    “Proves you are divorced from reality and in denial.”

    How does my statement ‘prove’ that?

    ” Your shrinks would not agree you are sane would they?”

    I’ve never had any shrinks.

    For political reasons, I did time in a Federal Prison, and also for political reasons, did time in various county jails — both of which institutions had staff psychiatrists & psychologists; just as schools & universities do.

    I had dealings with them during the course of my stays in those places. But I was never under the direct care of ANY such individuals, there or anywhere else, ever. Moreover, the shrinks in Federal Prison specifically thought me both stronger AND more sane than they.

  25. @ bernard ross:

    “Dweller believes in a god that mated with a woman and pooped out a Jewish Messiah.”

    “The fact that you persistently refer to the birthing of any child as ‘a woman pooping it out’ — you’ve repeated it nearly 20 times — speaks VOLUMES to your actual (as distinct from feigned) attitude toward women.”

    “As you are completely devoid of any sense of humor you are unable to discern the facetious ridicule of using the term “pooping” to describe your ludicrous narrative”

    Now THAT weasel-walk is the real poop here. One might find humor in one or two uses of such a remark. Not in a couple dozen. Then it’s clear the user has a problem distinguishing the front side of a woman’s body from her. . . . backside.

    “Not to worry as I do that for the other readers as I know you are clueless.”

    Not clueless; I’ve had your number for years, buster.

    You assume the READERS are clueless and that they don’t see you for what you are. But every so often, what’s hiding in you pops right out of you (or should I say poops right out of you?), and everybody gets a clear picture of what was in there all the time.

    It’s not the first time you’ve inadvertently exposed yourself.

    @ bernard ross:

    “I repeat the characterization once again: the virgin birth/conception was in no way a ‘union’ or a ‘mating.’ No way that could happen w/ a non-physical & non-corporeal and thus non-sexual being having no need for a ‘mate’…”

    “I know, you told me”

    “This was not about Adonoi ‘breeding’ Himself to a woman; probably something more on the order of catalyzing a process of development in the womb.”

    “do you really believe that description is any less ludicrous to Jews”

    To the bright ones, yes. To the dullards like you, of course not; but that was a foregone conclusion anyway.

    But the real question of the day is, do you really believe calling it ‘ludicrous’ will make Jews (or anybody else) think of you as Jewish? Sorry, but it doesn’t work like that.

    “So, now the G-D of Israel who CREATED the universe has become in your bible the mere catalyst for a process of development in the womb. by a process of development in the womb I assume you mean conception and gestation. Interestingly you assert that the son of your god inherited no special godlike characters or “genes: from his father.”

    No more than Adam did; of course not. (You’re really kinda slow with this stuff, aren’t you?)

    If he’d had special powers he couldn’t have accomplished his mission. Told you: It could not have been performed by a ‘god.’ Nor would he have ‘inherited’ genes from the Most High, who is not a physical being (let alone, a ‘sexual’ one), so where would ANY ‘genes’ have come from, other than his mother?

    “Imagine being supermans son and getting no superpowers, what a disappointment for him. The Greek god’s sons got a better deal.”

    But then they all had human traits: vanity, jealousy, hatred, spite, envy, deceit, duplicity, arrogance. They cavorted sexually w/ each other & each others’ spouses — of both genders; also w/ their own children; also w/ animals.

    Definitely a “better deal” from your perspective; indeed, right up your. . . alley. . . as it were.

    “Actually I can, and have, catalyzed a process of development in a womb myself and surprisingly I was also able to produce a son with no superpowers. HMMMMMM? Such a big megillah for something humans do every day.”

    Takes a little something MORE than that, however, to be a father.

    — Or didn’t they explain that to you when you were consulting the experts at Marvel Comix for parenting skills and Divinity Studies?

  26. @ dweller:

    “No lie. The statement was yours. I merely addressed the specific point you were ignoring. There is no way I would characterize the virgin birth/conception as a ‘union.’ To say that I did is ITSELF a lie. I repeat: show me a single instance of my using that kind of language (‘union’ or ‘mating’) in such a context. You can’t; I’ve never used it, not once in my life.

    How did you describe it with link to your description?

    And I repeat the characterization once again: the virgin birth/conception was in no way a ‘union’ or a ‘mating.’ No way that could happen w/ a non-physical & non-corporeal and thus non-sexual being having no need for a ‘mate’…”

    Biological impossibility in humans….. I go with story Mary was a filthy whore who got knocked up by a Roman soldier and the story was concocted to cover her ass literally from being stoned to death and Joseph made to look like a cockhold in public humiliation. The grave of his biological father found in Germany.

    A rational person faced with the competing narratives if they were sane would choose the later and in the later there is some evidence of it being true.

    “The G_D worshiped by the jewish people fathered a child with a woman and resurrected him as the messiah?”

    “Partly right. Partly wrong. The child was the messiah even BEFORE his resurrection.”

    “here you niggled about saying it was ‘before,’ you fake!”

    Find such a basis in Jewish scriptures! If you can’t it’s a lie and you are a fucking liar. Remember the POSTULATES I ENUMERATED!!!! IF IT CAN’T BE BASED ON HEBREW SCRIPTURE IT HAS NO FOUNDATION IN TRUTH. Greek Egyptian, Persian and Roman Mythology Yes for sure, for certain but not Hebrew scriptures or Hebrew thought then nor now.

    No, I merely realize just how MUCH of a nut case you really are, that you would press such characterizations.

    You believe yourself to be sane???? Proves you are divorced from reality and in denial. Your shrinks would not agree you are sane would they??? No lying now Liar!!!

    And “over & over” what you “show this forum” is just what a self-deluded, paranoid sicko you are.

    You just plagiarized my oft stated descriptions of you fegele. So like a stupid child you have been reduced to repeating my stated opinions of you at adversaries you can’t debate on the merits or lack of them. Not only are you a stupid AH who can’t defend his beliefs on their merits you are infantile & puerile besides being a fegele.

    “What we have, at present, to go with is quite simple: NT was written by observant Judean & Anatolian Jews who were disciples of JC, a fa

    ct which is freely & ungrudgingly acknowledged by the present-day Jewish community & its cultural AND religious leadership.

    Most of those same Jews also recognize Palistinians clamims and narratives. A- They are ignorant B- it’s not important for them C- cowardice if they do know the truth. Easier for them to deny christian theology than to challenge the who historicity of the christian beliefs…..Diaspora Jews are cowards and still fear the christians.

    I am not just challenging the theology and the basis of your beliefs I challenge the origins and the historicity that they are founded on. I call them a beg lie and do challenge whether your J schmuck ever existed as fepicted in the NT. At best I am willing to concede he represents a composite character of many different individuals of his period.

    If there was any sting operation it was against idiots like you who bought into the scam and got stung….

    bernard ross:

    “[Christ] allowed himself to be killed for what?”

    dweller

    “I told you before: to complete the mission for which he was born — to force the hand of haSoton. He tempted the Adversary (even as the latter tempts man); tempted him to exceed his lawful mandate. Think of it as a great, cosmic ‘Sting’ operation. No way it could happen w/o his dying; it was in the job description from Day One.”

    BR

    “does this story exist in your NT or did you make it up yourself.”

    Satan was an agel messenger of G-d and could not operate on his own even if he had the will and power to do so. To give him such powers as you describe limits G-d and is the exact opposite of Jewish thought and belief. You know that perfectly well yet you choose the pagan concept over the Jewish one. Proving you are nothing more than a Pagan christian anti Jew. Can’t dance at two weddings simultaneously. Every facet of your stated beliefs is G-d limiting, proving it has no Jewish theological base.

    Yes or No do you accept as valid the revelation at Sinai?. What in your opinion was the significance to Naaseh v nishmah? That the commandments and covenant were to be forever??? Show me references from the Tanach describing a spiritual savior King Messiah?

    Jewish doctrine is only based on the Torah and commandments, stories are nice as are midrahim and agudat but have no doctrinal authority in Judaism only the commandments!!!! I don’t care about no Messiahs and Judaism is not predicated on such myths if it ain’t in the Torah it has no authority in beliefs….. The prophets only speak of a Utopian age but not the end of history or a Messiah as you christians have invented. We have no heaven no hell and no promise of an after life. It’s not in the Torah. Does the Tanach Call Cyrus a Messiah?

    christianity is so opposite Jewish thought and beliefs it could not have been spawned and accepted by Jews Never not in beleifs, not in language and certainly all relationship to a spiritual savior who is born of a virgin impregnated by a god dies and is resurrected. Call your beliefs dwellerism doesn’t matter it is not based on Judaism then or now. You don’t even know who are the real authors of your book. You don’t find it curious that your pauline lying dwarf never heard of virgin birth nor Mark and John???

    Such a momentous event one might think would hve been noticed and mentioned in their gospels. Not a word or thought and even in the two gospels that mention the virgin birth the narrativs are so different that one might suspect they are talking about two distinct events. Such is the lack of veracity of that stupid book. If that book had any real divine inspiration that divinity must have been a mental retard.

    They were ignored by Jews because they were not written by Jews until the 2nd century at the earliest never existed. Even the Talmud was disinterested and references made could not have been the same turd as that mentioned in the NT.

    Anything with even the slightest stench of Paganism would be forbidden to the Jews of that time.

  27. @ bernard ross:

    “you did indeed originally describe it as a ‘union’ with a woman”

    “…’Union’ is strictly your word. So is ‘mating’…

    No way I would’ve used language even remotely approximating that; no way, no how.

    — Show me the specific post where I supposedly said anything like that.”

    “your Jewish messiah born of a virgin birth resulting from a union of the Hebrew G_D and a woman”

    “yes. a Hebrew God and a Hebrew woman.”

    “Liar alert?”

    “No lie. The statement was yours. I merely addressed the specific point you were ignoring. There is no way I would characterize the virgin birth/conception as a ‘union.’ To say that I did is ITSELF a lie. I repeat: show me a single instance of my using that kind of language (‘union’ or ‘mating’) in such a context. You can’t; I’ve never used it, not once in my life.

    And I repeat the characterization once again: the virgin birth/conception was in no way a ‘union’ or a ‘mating.’ No way that could happen w/ a non-physical & non-corporeal and thus non-sexual being having no need for a ‘mate’…”

    “RUBBISH… everyone here knows that if you do not agree with part of a statement like this you reply to it.”

    Depends on the circumstance. There may be any number of directions one might go with a remark. If you go with one possibility, you pass up another, at least for the time being. There’s always a trade-off to be made; it’s unavoidable.

    “You had no problem with the word ‘UNION’ at that time ONLY with the adjective ‘Hebrew’ in front of woman. E,G. the next example I gave you, you clearly disagreed with part of it and so stated AS YOU USUALLY DO.”

    Don’t give me this shit.

    A blog post is not a legal document, where every word not explicitly objected to at any given moment may be assumed ‘accepted.’

    The fact that in a given post, I ignore a word or phrase which is not germane to that part of the thread means nothing one way or another — only that I did not wish that it distract from the point(s) presently in contention. (And if I did pursue it, YOU’d eventually get ’round to calling my objection ‘tangential’ or ‘obfuscation.’)

    I ignore hundreds of posts in a single blogging session. Sometimes I ignore whole articles and their entire threads. Is this supposed to meand that I assent to everything said in them. Get a life.

    If you can find a comment of mine (among the thousands I’ve posted in this matter alone) in which I actually characterized the conception of Christ as a “union” or a “mating,” then produce the unedited post and its intact context. Otherwise, you can walk west till your hat floats, Bozo.

    “The G_D worshiped by the jewish people fathered a child with a woman and resurrected him as the messiah?”

    “Partly right. Partly wrong. The child was the messiah even BEFORE his resurrection.”

    “here you niggled about saying it was ‘before,’ you fake!”

    Neither niggling NOR fakery. The “before” part was significant.

    “If you had disagreed with the word ‘UNION’ at that time you would have said so.”

    But you didn’t even use the word “union” that time.

    “You now realize how ludicrous your god and woman stories are to Jews…”

    No, I merely realize just how MUCH of a nut case you really are, that you would press such characterizations.

    “…so you are seeking to tone it down and obfuscate the narratives absurdity.”

    There’s nothing for ME to ‘tone down.’ The crazy,contemptuous language is yours; it was NEVER mine.

    “Over and over I show this forum what a liar you are and your ludicrous denials fool no one, only you.”

    No, I tell no lies here, notwithstanding your lame attempts make something stick.

    And “over & over” what you “show this forum” is just what a self-deluded, paranoid sicko you are.

    @ bernard ross:

    “What we have, at present, to go with is quite simple: NT was written by observant Judean & Anatolian Jews who were disciples of JC, a fact which is freely & ungrudgingly acknowledged by the present-day Jewish community & its cultural AND religious leadership.

    Thus far, no contemporaneous literature of the era has been adduced which ‘contradicts’ what those Jewish authors wrote. Accordingly their remarks are entitled to the presumption of veracity, and if you wish to challenge them you (or anyone sharing your position) must bear the burden of proof in the doing.”

    “when folks write fairy tales of gods catalyzing womens wombs and having jewish messiah sons there is no “entitlement to the presumption of veracity” that it actually occurred”

    Till you can establish the narratives to constitute ‘fairy tales’ — or produce contemporaneous narratives which contradict them — they ARE indeed entitled to the presumption of veracity

    — just as the proposition that (absent contradictory contemporaneous narratives) the one true sovereign Lord of the universe promised Eretz Cana’an to the Jews unconditionally and in perpetuity is entitled to the presumption of veracity.

    To the ear of an objective observer the latter is no less preposterous than the former. THAT, however, does not, of itself, render it a ‘fairy tale.’

    “as you can see that not a jew gave those assertions any “presumption of veracity” for the ensuing 2000 years”

    That is flatly untrue. There have been Jews in every generation (and not merely alienated or compromised or assimilated ones) who found truth in the gospels.

    “the Jews continued with their own narrative and ignored the christian narrative as false.”

    You simply don’t know that. WRITTEN Jewish religious history, per rabbinical policy (subsequently abandoned), is quite silent for the first few centuries.

    “They obviously took the authors to be novelists.”

    No way the contents could have been taken for fiction. You see, unlike yourself, the Jews actually bothered to read the available writings which later became the NT canon.

  28. @ bernard ross:

    “[The Almighty] was a comedian for sending [JC] on a special mission whereby billions of people would hear his brilliant sayings and then proceed consistently to do the opposite for 2000 years.”

    “…‘Billions’ did not hear what he said; neither heard it from him, nor heard it from anybody ELSE.

    Covered this subject a few times already. Have you been neglecting to take your your Aricept?”

    “they have been reading his brilliant sayings just like you, praying to him, repeating his brilliant sayings for 2000 years”

    And how could they do that? Common literacy is not 2000 years old; in much of the western world, it’s scarcely a few hundred years old — in other parts of the West, quite a bit less. In the Mideast & other parts of the world, it’s one helluva lot less than that (if at all, even today).

    “Did [Almighty God] plan that [JC] would inspire people to the opposite of his teachings and persecute the jews?”

    When you’ve read the gospels, you’ll have your answer to that question. Not until.

    “Why would the G_D of Israel surround [haNitzri] with horror and evil”

    He didn’t. That was somebody Else’s work.

    “What do you think the G_D of Israel is saying to us”

    Very obviously, He’s saying get the straight story for yourself; don’t rely on ANYBODY else to give it to you straight. [Du-uh!]

    @ bernard ross:

    “but you and your friends aid and abet the hijacking today by spreading the lie that they did not hijack it, revise it …”

    “If you have not read it, then you are the last of persons positioned to make such claims. “

    “I keep telling you that there is no need to read ‘mein kampf’ to know that hitler killed lots of Jews, their is no need to read the diary of a thief to see the stolen goods in his hand”

    And I keep telling YOU that I don’t believe your claim of ‘not needing’ to read NT as your true & actual reason for not reading it. I think you’re lying. I think you’re terrified of reading it. I think you’ve built up a whole house of cards on a bogey man, which simply cannot afford for you to read NT. And all your elaborate analogyzing to Nazis, thieves, KKK, etc, ad naus., is plainly & simply a crock.

    You apparently ran out of steam a while ago and are now merely recycling your old, tired lines.”

    “it is important to repeat to the forum here things you have stated to make sure that they really see you for what you are. “

    You’re kidding yourself. Aside from one or two others at any given time, the ‘forum’ doesn’t even read your posts in this matter, dude. You’ve become a known quantity, and it’s a thoroughly tiresome & crankish one.

    In fact if it weren’t so important to your compulsive ego to keep hoping against hope that something you toss at the wall wrt me will stick, even YOU would be too bored with your own old shticklach to continue with them. As it is, nothing you throw ever ends up sticking except in your own fantasies.

    “I believe that they cannot accept as factual your narrative regarding the G_D of Israel…”

    You speak only for yourself. Intelligent persons leave what they do not know for fact as an open question.

    “…and would consider it like me both libelous and blasphemous.”

    I’ve seen so much libel & blasphemy from you that I couldn’t care less what you think. And I daresay, other readers agree with me in that regard.

    “Certainly they would consider it untrue.”

    There is NO ‘certainty’ of any sort in your remark.

    “Now logic demands that if they consider this repeatedly marketed swindle here of yours as a lie”

    Logic had nothing to do with your remark.

    — QTC, in fact, you again are begging the question; viz., you assume as ‘fact’ matters unestablished to BE fact.

    I’ve never swindled anybody in my life

    — and I’ve not lied on this blogsite.

    “One must wonder why a person who believes that the G_D of Israel had a son with a woman who was the Jewish messiah would come to a website where many Jews would consider that blasphemous and insulting.”

    This isn’t a dinner party; it’s a blogsite. Get over yourself.

    “This is certainly a belief that no jew here would consider Jewish”

    I am a Jew here, and there isn’t a shred of doubt in my mind that what I’ve said — in the way I’ve said it — is INDEED thoroughly Jewish.

  29. @ yamit82:

    “does this story exist in your NT or did you make it up yourself.”

    “Did not make it up.”

    “QUESTION was fair”

    What question was that?

    — If the antecedent question is not identified, how can it be ‘fair’???

    If you don’t provide the continuity for your own question, don’t expect me to go hunting for it; that’s your responsibility.

    “Since it’s NOT in your NT what is the source if not you??”

    Since WHAT is not in NT?

    “Don’t expect any answer no less a cogent one from you but all readers should see you for what you are.”

    What all readers can readily see is that your QUESTION is not cogent.

  30. @ bernard ross:

    “you keep pretending I am saying Jewish sources.”

    “The pretending is strictly yours. Jewish sources, Jewish attestation — the language is equivalent — six of one, half-dozen of the other

    — and you still haven’t defined it, despite my continued request. I want your definition as you use it.”

    “get a dictionary”

    “This is just more of your transparent evasiveness. I don’t need a dictionary. I need your definition of the language you use as you use it.”

    “you said the same thing asking me for my definition of Christian…”

    No reason I would’ve asked for your definition of ‘christian.’ What I DID ask you for was your definition of ‘Christian sources‘ (and for the same reason) since you had introduced the expression into the exchange & used the expression profusely w/o ever defining it. You like playing this game of introducing language that you can use to control the direction of discourse, because the words remain undefined. Homey DON’T play that shit.

    “Most Jews here understand what the word jewish means in relation to my simple statement”

    Lame and evasive, as usual. If THEY can’t define it, then they don’t understand it any more than you do. The only difference is that most Jews would have more sense than to use such terms at all.

    “If there were any Jewish attestation for the NT and the story of the Hebrew G-D begetting a son with a woman who was the jewish messiah I think we would have noticed over the 2000 years”

    YOU wouldn’t notice ANYTHING you didn’t want to notice.

    “…some rabbis might have written of their attestation and support…”

    They have. You’ve got a mouse; use it.

  31. @ bernard ross:

    “You hinge your whole argument on your belief that Jews authored the NT but even if true that does not attest to Jewish attestation or support of its truth.”

    Hinge or no hinge, it’s entirely sufficient unto itself — unless, and until, you can produce contemporaneous accounts of a contrary nature. Till then, it stands.

    “whoever wrote it wrote fiction”

    This from somebody who’s never had the discipline — or the balls — to read it for himself.

    Truth to tell, your remarks are the fiction around here. And chutzpadik fiction at that.

    “There is no Jewish attestation or support of the NT narrative as factual.”

    Oh, yes, there is. Yet even if there weren’t, what would that prove? It would STILL leave you with nothing more than the argument from silence — which cannot, in its nature, be conclusive.

    Suppose you show ME some external corroboration for the proposition that the one true sovereign Lord of the universe promised Eretz Cana’an to the Jews — and moreover, promised it to them unconditionally and in perpetuity.

    Moreover, since you won’t even acknowledge that He’s self-existent, how do you know He’s eternal and even able to keep such a promise?

    And while you’re at it, tell me why that Lord, if He is omnipotent as you say, should be bothered to keep His word to the Jews (or to anybody else).

    — As you’ve noted (many, many times), He can do what He pleases, so why must He be ‘limited’ by the notion that He should keep His word?

    “show me one jew who has attested to the facts of your NT god mating narratives”

    Show me one “NT god mating narrative” of mine. Produce the actual, unedited post w/ its unedited context intact.

    “In 2000 years no Jew has attested or supported the claim that the G_D of Israel had a son with a [Jewish] women and that son was the… messiah.”

    And how, exactly, would they go about doing that?

    Why would you believe them — just because they said it?

    “the Jews have firmly rejected that this ever took place.”

    Some have. Some have not.

    “If they had accepted, attested to, supported or advocated those [narratives] as facts they would now have already been worshipping [Yeshua]…”

    Hardly. They would not be ‘worshipping’ ANY man, and he most certainly never asked
    or suggested them to.

    “… and his jew killers.”

    THAT Jew had no ‘jew killers’ — but there IS the occasional foreskin-festooned dickhead who slanders him that way.

    “Some fairy tale written 2000 years ago is not Jewish attestaion… “

    If you could establish the gospel narrative to BE a ‘fairy tale,’ you might be able to say something like that. But you’ve not done anything of the kind. You’re left with nothing but warmed-over versions of the same empty, crankish claims you always make. You’ve got nothing.

    “the 2000 years since clearly show that jews reject this as fact.”

    The 2000 years since clearly show that some do; some don’t.

    “Only your need for recognition of [Moshiach]…”

    What need would that be? I have no such need as regards other persons recognizing what I recognize. What you believe or disbelieve means nothing whatsoever to me; I can take it or leave it — told you that numerous times.

    In fact, the only need I see here is YOUR need to persuade yourself that you are a true Jew after the life you’ve lived until now.

    And you think that if you can convince the other bloggers here of that proposition, then you can believe it yourself — because you sense (quite correctly, as it happens) that you have no independent, interior core of identity. Consequently, dumping on anybody who doesn’t conform to the control profile — Huff’n’puff’s — is an integral part of the program. It can’t work though, because his shmutziker little secret is that his OWN interior core is no more ‘Jewish’ than yours. . . .

    The truth is, you’re on your own. (As is he.)

    And you’re a fake — a fake’s fake.

    “its your problem if you cannot solve your conundrum of what jewish attestation would be over a 2000 year period.”

    You’re begging the question again. I’ve never had ANY conundrum whatsoever (let alone, a problem) over Jewish attestation. I’ve asked for your definition of the phrase as you use it, so as to put us both on the same page to discuss it. You fear defining it, because you sense (again, correctly) that if we were on the same page, I’d wind up taking you apart like a jigsaw puzzle.

    It’s you who has the problem of Jewish attestation, since you clearly have no clue as to the essence & meaning of ‘Jewish.’ The most you can do is to, effectively, say that ‘it isn’t christian’ — that’s all you can do. Pitiful.

  32. bernard ross Said:

    “There is no Jewish attestation or support of the NT narrative as factual.”

    There cannot be past present or future. Judaism in the end, is the law; all events in Tanakh only demonstrate validity of the law. Any other view makes Judaism a pagan religion whose tribal deity favors one ethnic group above others.

    Jews are chosen to observe the law, and remain chosen insofar as they are expected to observe it. Unlike sectarian radicalism (christianity), Judaism is not maximalist. The world is not divided between good and evil. According to Talmudic tradition, it is enough for men to be one-thousandth good and enter the heavenly realm. The commandments do not require absolute obedience in the sense that transgression does not preclude righteousness. The more a man keeps, the better, the easier is the Way. Transgression is cause for repentance, aimed at not repeating the mistake.

    There is no anger. G-d is as indifferent to people’s behavior as he is immutable. Commandments are instructions for living in this world. One can disregard them and constantly stumble upon obstacles. Those are not G-d’s anger, not blows of fate, but simply laws of nature which we do not yet understand. The commandments tell us how to live comfortably in the field of those laws; obeying them keeps the Way free of hindrance.

    Observing the Judaic ethics is the all-important end; the path matters, not goals like salvation or nirvana. Jews are taught to enjoy the process of life, made comfortable by their ethics, not strive for otherworldly aims.

    Judaism is based on two principles: love to God and not harming others. The Ten Commandments develop these principles into actionable rules.

    READ MORE

  33. dweller Said:

    no contemporaneous literature of the era has been adduced which ‘contradicts’ what those Jewish authors wrote. Accordingly their remarks are entitled to the presumption of veracity,

    LOL, when folks write fairy tales of gods catalyzing womens wombs and having jewish messiah sons there is no “entitlement to the presumption of veracity” that it actually occurred and as you can see that not a jew gave those assertions any “presumption of veracity” for the ensuing 2000 years, the Jews continued with their own narrative and ignored the christian narrative as false. They obviously took the authors to be novelists.

  34. dweller Said:

    “You hinge your whole argument on your belief that Jews authored the NT but even if true that does not attest to Jewish attestation or support of its truth.”

    whoever wrote it wrote fiction and this fact still stands:bernard ross Said:

    There is no Jewish attestation or support of the NT narrative as factual.”.

    In 2000 years no jewish attestion of support of the NT as factual.
    dweller Said:

    Thus far, no contemporaneous literature of the era has been adduced which ‘contradicts’ what those Jewish authors wrote.

    LOL, do you expect the Jews to be slaughtered by your associates when they say that your stories of gods mating women created our jewish messiah are fiction? In 2000 years no Jew has attested or supported the claim that the G_D of Israel had a son with a women and that son was the Jewish messiah. the Jews have firmly rejected that this ever took place. If they had accepted, attested to, supported or advocated those mythologies as facts they would now have already been worshipping your nitri and his jew killers. Some fairy tale written 2000 years ago is not Jewish attestaion… the 2000 years since clearly show that jews reject this as fact. Only your need for recognition of your nitri allows you to arrive here with your cartoon stories of gods in unions with women and pooping out jewish messiahs. a ludicrous story that only a non jew could market.
    nothing has changed show me one jew who has attested to the facts of your NT god mating narratives other than the characters in your fairy tale. blah blah blah… this is fact:
    bernard ross Said:

    There is no Jewish attestation or support of the NT narrative as factual.

    its your problem if you cannot solve your conundrum of what jewish attestation would be over a 2000 year period. I am sure you only have one example of “jewish attestation or support for the NT as factual” over 2000 years and that is your NT (LOL): the fairy tale given to YOU by the christians.

  35. @ bernard ross:

    “There is no Jewish attestation or support of the NT narrative as factual.”

    I’ve asked you to define ‘Jewish attestation or support,’ as you use the term.

    So far, however, lots of verbiage; lots of song-&-dance.

    But no definition.

    Yet you keep on using the expression.

    You’re a joke.

    “it appears that the one word you have trouble understanding in the simple phrase is the word ‘JEWISH….”

    QTC, I’m the one blogger on Chit Chat who has no trouble understanding the word.

    “apparently you need to know what I mean by Jewish in order to say whether there is any JEWISH attestation or support for the NT as factual.”

    Correct.

    “I have come to understand that you have a difficulty determining the difference between Judaism and Christianity.”

    No difficulty whatsoever, and you rather obviously ‘understand’ nothing. I arrived at the clear distinction betw Judaism & Xty even BEFORE I ever encountered the Nicene Creed OR the remarks of Nachmanides in the matter. It is YOU (and your fellow tag-team shlemiel) who aren’t so clear on the concept.

    “I believe that every one on this site understands my simple statement insofar as being able to agree or disagree and provide support for their conclusion.”

    What everyone on this site understands is that you’re being evasive . Furthermore, most readers of this site have stopped even reading your posts on Chit Chat, as there is only so much of a crank they can handle, especially after his stuff has long since turned tiresomely repetitive & crashingly boring.

    “If you then disagree with my statement provide your Jewish attestations and support for the facts of the NT.”

    First define your phrase “Jewish attestations and support.”

    If you can’t, then your claims are pointless and meaningless.

    “You hinge your whole argument on your belief that Jews authored the NT but even if true that does not attest to Jewish attestation or support of its truth.”

    Ultimately it most certainly DOES so attest. Until you put us on the same page and define the phrase you introduced and continue using, anybody can define it as they please. Ball remains in your court.

    Frankly I sympathize with your predicament; you painted yourself into a corner by hauling out that awkward & cumbersome phrase, as well as the equally problematic one before it, “Jewish sources.” But as long as you insist on using the term — in either form, or in yet some other comparable one — you will be stuck with this most intractable problem of your own making.

    What we have, at present, to go with is quite simple: NT was written by observant Judean & Anatolian Jews who were disciples of JC, a fact which is freely & ungrudgingly acknowledged by the present-day Jewish community & its cultural AND religious leadership.

    Thus far, no contemporaneous literature of the era has been adduced which ‘contradicts’ what those Jewish authors wrote. Accordingly their remarks are entitled to the presumption of veracity, and if you wish to challenge them you (or anyone sharing your position) must bear the burden of proof in the doing.

  36. dweller Said:

    And I repeat the characterization once again: the virgin birth/conception was in no way a ‘union’ or a ‘mating.’

    I know, you told me, that your latest descriptive version was:

    catalyzing a process of development in the womb

    do you really believe that description is any less ludicrous to Jews
    😛 😛 😛 😛 LOLROF

  37. dweller Said:

    The fact that you persistently refer to the birthing of any child as “a woman pooping it out” — you’ve repeated it nearly 20 times — speaks VOLUMES to your actual (as distinct from feigned) attitude toward women.

    😛 😛 😛 😛
    As you are completely devoid of any sense of humor you are unable to discern the facetious ridicule of using the term “pooping” to describe your ludicrous narrative, I also toggle between pooping and popping to spice up the ridicule. When you arrive at a Jewish venue and market your ludicrous narratives of gods mating, fathering, having unions, catalysing the process of development of the womb, with or in women you should prepare yourself for ridicule as befits your ludicrous cartoons. Not to worry as I do that for the other readers as I know you are clueless.

  38. bernard ross Said:

    Bernard Ross Said:

    “In other words: …..your Jewish messiah born of a virgin birth resulting from a union of the Hebrew G_D and a woman
    Dweller said: yes. a Hebrew God and a Hebrew woman.

    dweller Said:

    No lie. The statement was yours. I merely addressed the specific point you were ignoring. There is no way I would characterize the virgin birth/conception as a ‘union.’

    RUBBISH… everyone here knows that if you do not agree with part of a statement like this you reply to it. You had no problem with the word “UNION” at that time ONLY with the adjective “Hebrew” in front of woman. E,G. the next example I gave you, you clearly disagreed with part of it and so stated AS YOU USUALLY DO.
    bernard ross Said:

    [bernard ross Said: Let me see, are you saying that:]
    “The G_D worshiped by the jewish people fathered a child with a woman and resurrected him as the messiah?”
    Dweller said:
    Partly right. Partly wrong. The child was the messiah even BEFORE his resurrection.

    here you niggled about saying it was “before”, you fake!
    If you had disagreed with the word “UNION” at that time you would have said so. You now realize how ludicrous your god and woman stories are to Jews so you are seeking to tone it down and obfuscate the narratives absurdity.
    Over and over I show this forum what a liar you are and your ludicrous denials fool no one, only you.

  39. @ bernard ross:

    “Perhaps your god had a union with a woman and begot a messiah “

    “God doesn’t have ‘unions’ with anybody. But imbecilic perverts who don’t know any better like to say He does.”

    “And WHO are these imbeciles and perverts who said [the Most High] had a union with a woman?”

    You and Huff’n’puff.

    “you did indeed originally describe it as a ‘union’ with a woman”

    “…’Union’ is strictly your word. So is ‘mating’…”

    No way I would’ve used language even remotely approximating that; no way, no how.

    — Show me the specific post where I supposedly said anything like that. (This should be good; can’t wait to see what you come up with.)”

    “your Jewish messiah born of a virgin birth resulting from a union of the Hebrew G_D and a woman”

    “a Hebrew God and a Hebrew woman.”

    “Liar alert?”

    No lie. The statement was yours. I merely addressed the specific point you were ignoring. There is no way I would characterize the virgin birth/conception as a ‘union.’ To say that I did is ITSELF a lie. I repeat: show me a single instance of my using that kind of language (‘union’ or ‘mating’) in such a context. You can’t; I’ve never used it, not once in my life.

    And I repeat the characterization once again: the virgin birth/conception was in no way a ‘union’ or a ‘mating.’ No way that could happen w/ a non-physical & non-corporeal and thus non-sexual being having no need for a ‘mate.’

    “The G_D worshiped by the jewish people fathered a child with a woman and resurrected him as the messiah?”

    “Partly right. Partly wrong. The child was the messiah even BEFORE his resurrection.”

    “Dweller believes in a god that mated with a woman and pooped out a Jewish Messiah.”

    The fact that you persistently refer to the birthing of any child as “a woman pooping it out” — you’ve repeated it nearly 20 times — speaks VOLUMES to your actual (as distinct from feigned) attitude toward women.

  40. @ bernard ross:

    “does this story exist in your NT or did you make it up yourself.”

    Did not make it up.

    QUESTION was fair

    — and that this entitled his question to a REAL answer (as distinct from a merely cutesy one). Question deserves a real responsible response……

    Since it’s NOT in your NT what is the source if not you????

    Don’t expect any answer no less a cogent one from you but all readers should see you for what you are. 😛

  41. dweller Said:

    “This is just more of your transparent evasiveness. I don’t need a dictionary. I need your definition of the language you use as you use it.

    You said the same thing about the word christian and then you denied my submission. Most Jews here understand what the word jewish means in relation to my simple statement
    Bernard Ross Said:

    “There is no Jewish attestation or support of the NT narrative as factual.”

    If there were any Jewish attestation for the NT and the story of the Hebrew G-D begetting a son with a woman who was the jewish messiah I think we would have noticed over the 2000 years; some rabbis might have written of their attestation and support as we have many jewish attestations including those heresies considered contrary to Judaism, like shabtai zvi, etc.

  42. Bernard Ross Said:

    “There is no Jewish attestation or support of the NT narrative as factual.”
    Dweller said:
    Define “Jewish attestation or support.”
    Bernard Ross Said:
    1-ATTESTATION: is the process of validating that something is true……
    2-SUPPORT: to maintain or advocate (a theory, principle, etc.).
    3-FACTUAL: actually occurring.

    Dweller said:
    {“Factual” was not part of the phrase for which I asked your definition.You only offered it as a distracting substitute

    LOL 😛 😛 😛 😛
    DUH???? certainly I am not discussing Jewish attestation and support for the NT as non-factual( fiction, fairy tale,mythology, novella,bullshit story, etc etc etc)
    If I were making a statement about the non factual fairy tale aspect of the NT I would instead have to state almost the opposite:
    There is oodles of Jewish attestation and support for the NT as FICTION.
    dweller Said:

    as a distracting substitute for the third, as yet unaddressed, element, “Jewish.”……..
    he has left a key element of the phrase — arguably the crucial element in it — undefined………..
    I continue to await the full definition of the term as you use it, Weasel: “Jewish attestation & support.”

    it appears that the one word you have trouble understanding in the simple phrase is the word “JEWISH”. apparently you need to know what I mean by Jewish in order to say whether there is any JEWISH attestation or support for the NT as factual. I have come to understand that you have a difficulty determining the difference between Judaism and Christianity. I believe that in the context of my statement that you might be the only Jew on this site or anywhere that would have trouble understanding my statement because they do not understand the meaning of Jewish. Let me help you to understand, the following statement is definitely NOT Jewish:

    The G_D worshiped by the jewish people fathered a child with a woman and resurrected him as the messiah

    I believe that every one on this site understands my simple statement insofar as being able to agree or disagree and provide support for their conclusion. I feel no need to define judaism, who is a jew, what is jewish etc etc etc. We all know that leads nowhere which is perhaps why you clung to it. I already went through this with you when you asked me what I meant by christian: you denied my 3 submitted dictionary definitions defining them as followers of Jesus saying they had to follow the Nicene creed and when I submitted that the christians persecuted the Jews for 2000 years you denied they were christians even though they beleived in the Nicene creed and self identified as christians over 2000 years including popes, priests, church orgs. etc. You removed billions of self professed christians from their identification. It is obvious that you do this to obufuscate.
    Perhaps you should decide for yourself what you think “Jewish” means and if you then disagree with my statement provide your Jewish attestations and support for the facts of the NT.

    Since the advent of the NT I have read of nor been shown any Jewish attestation or support that the NT is factual. Sure there are likely to be fringe groups like Jews for Jesus but there are also fringe groups of Jewish lunatics and psychotics. Surely almost 2000 years is enough time to determine if there is any Jewish attestation or support for the NT as factual. You hinge your whole argument on your belief that Jews authored the NT but even if true that does not attest to Jewish attestation or support of its truth. Therefore, I continue to state that with which I believe every Jew on this site will agree:
    bernard ross Said:

    There is no Jewish attestation or support of the NT narrative as factual.”.

    if you believe otherwise then submit your examples and reason for your belief, don’t bother with this red herring tactic of asking questions as a distraction. Man up, agree or disagree and state your argument other than the claim that the NT was written by Jews. So far I have only seen you submit the NT being written by Jews as being Jewish attestation to it as factual as opposed to a novel.

  43. bernard ross Said:

    what you stated which was that your god had a union with a woman and their progeny was a jewish messiah

    bernard ross Said:

    LOL, nothing could be more ludicrous than your narrative of a god in a union with a woman and their progeny was the Jewish messiah of the Hebrew bible. that ridiculous pagan fairy tale is enough to know of a narrative which is purporting to be factual AND about the jews.

    Bernard Ross Said:

    “Perhaps your god had a union with a woman and begot a messiah “
    Dweller said:
    God doesn’t have ‘unions’ with anybody. But imbecilic perverts who don’t know any better like to say so.

    🙂
    And WHO are these imbeciles and perverts who said your god had a union with a woman??? HMMMMMMM.

    dweller Said:

    — Show me the specific post where I supposedly said anything like that. (This should be good; can’t wait to see what you come up with.)

    🙂
    Bernard Ross Said:

    “In other words: …..your Jewish messiah born of a virgin birth resulting from a union of the Hebrew G_D and a woman
    Dweller said: yes. a Hebrew God and a Hebrew woman.

    Liar alert?
    BTW you can also add the following to the many versions of your gospel/NT narrative that you keep marketing here of your god begetting Jewish messiahs with a woman:
    dweller Said:

    @ bernard ross:
    [bernard ross Said: Let me see, are you saying that:]
    “The G_D worshiped by the jewish people fathered a child with a woman and resurrected him as the messiah?”
    Dweller said:
    Partly right. Partly wrong. The child was the messiah even BEFORE his resurrection.

    😛 😛 😛 😛 take your pick of your god mating women stories from the menu below but remember to add the latest one:
    bernard ross Said:

    Dweller believes that the G_D of Israel had a son with a woman and that son was the Jewish messiah
    sometimes I repeat it like this:
    Dweller believes that the G_D of Israel had a union with with a woman and the progeny was the Jewish messiah
    and then there is your latest version which I am sure you will want to revise:
    Dweller believes that the G_D of Israel catalyzed a development in the womb of a woman and she gave birth to His son who was the messiah of the Jewish bible.
    and then there is my simple version of all these pigs wearing different shades of lipstick:
    Dweller believes in a god that mated with a woman and pooped out a Jewish Messiah.

    dont forget to add the latest one 😛 😛 😛

  44. @ bernard ross:

    “my understanding of the Jesus narrative is that it is a fairy tale about mythological jews that has not jewish attestation or support.”

    Yes, but you leave your term, “jewish attestation or support,” undefined.

    So your assertion is meaningless.

    @ bernard ross:

    “[Christ] allowed himself to be killed for what?”

    “I told you before: to complete the mission for which he was born — to force the hand of haSoton. He tempted the Adversary (even as the latter tempts man); tempted him to exceed his lawful mandate. Think of it as a great, cosmic ‘Sting’ operation. No way it could happen w/o his dying; it was in the job description from Day One.”

    “does this story exist in your NT or did you make it up yourself.”

    Did not make it up.

    As to whether it’s in NT, you’ll have to read it to find out.

    ” Your enthusiasm for this scenario seems to be of very high interest to you,like its something important.”

    There are few things that I write about without enthusiasm & interest.

    “For me this obviously exciting adventure, for you, reminds of those stories that someone adds at the end when getting a disinterested response from the listener…’I guess you had to be there to get it’…”

    I’ve never been driven to such a lame averral.

    But then, I know who my listeners are, and aren’t.

  45. @ bernard ross:

    “Your speculations [on the real character of Jesus] are ludicrous, and only make you look all-the-sillier, because you won’t read what he actually said, and put all that nonsense to rest.”

    “nothing could be more ludicrous than your narrative of a god in a union with a woman and their progeny was the Jewish messiah of the Hebrew bible.”

    “Nonsense. Your deliberate & persistent misstatement of my remarks by which you create a strawman to knock down (since you can’t deal w/ what I said on its own terms) — THAT is by far more ludicrous than any actual narrative. It’s also dishonest.”

    “you did indeed originally describe it as a ‘union’ with a woman”

    “Union” is strictly your word. So is “mating.”

    No way I would’ve used language even remotely approximating that; no way, no how.

    — Show me the specific post where I supposedly said anything like that. (This should be good; can’t wait to see what you come up with.)

    “The Virgin Birth/Conception was NOT about Elohim ‘reproducing Himself’ (nor does He need to reproduce Himself, as He is self-existent & immortal) — it was about a direct creation — just as Adam had been, and as the angels had been. But this time it had to be thru the existing, fallen, human family: because He does not forsake His creation.

    This was not about Adonoi ‘breeding’ Himself to a woman; probably something more on the order of catalyzing a process of development in the womb.”

    “ridiculous and libelous, as pagan a myth as those that went before with some lipstick on the pig to obscure the obvious absurdity of gods mating with women. the libel is that you project your pagan myth on the G_D pf Israel.”

    “No. Actually the libel is that YOU project that deliberate & persistent misstatement of what I said onto ME.”

    “You believe that the Most High [catalyzed a development in the womb, or something like that]] of a Jewish woman and the progeny of that [process] was his son Jesus who was the Messiah written of in the Hebrew bible”

    “it still looks to me like this: you beleive that your pagan god…”

    Nope. Absolutely couldn’t be a pagan god. Pagan gods were all corporeal & physical, had sexual apparatuses, sexual appetites, and human failings.

    The Most High has NONE of those attributes,and it’s an outrage to ascribe any of them to Him.

    “…mated with a woman who pooped out a jewish messiah”

    The Most High does not ‘mate’; nor has He any need for a ‘mate.’

    “the only difference I see is your insistence that your god who did these weird things is the same G_D of Israel whom the Jews worship.”

    Of course; but’ve already established that you didn’t have the brains of a dime-store dildo.

    “This is the same libel of ascribing lewd and lascivious acts to our G_D that the christians do.”

    Horse pucky. It is you who libel Him — as it is YOU who wilfully & persistently attribute lewd and lascivious acts to Him, after being carefully & steadfastly shown that He is neither a sexual nor even a physical being.

    “I dont mind you ascribing those acts to your own pagan god but pullease stop libeling ours.”

    Your persistent misrepresentation of my remarks makes patently clear that it is YOUR ‘god’ — not mine — who is the pagan putz

    — and who is quite evidently created in your own image.

  46. @ mrg3105:

    “It was a fair question, Mr G. It was entitled to a real answer.”

    “dweller, life is unfair, and so am I.”

    You don’t read attentively, Sir.

    I didn’t say he was entitled to fairness from you. I said his QUESTION was fair

    — and that this entitled his question to a REAL answer (as distinct from a merely cutesy one).

    “I’m not going to ‘feed’ you information which you will just misinterpret to your own ends. Not playing your ‘game’…”

    You are much mistaken; that is NOT my ‘game.’

    There ARE those who post on this site, and on this page specifically, who do INDEED incline toward that little pastime to which you allude.

    But I am not among them.

    Then again, however, if you could so readily miss the point, as you did, in the remark blockquoted atop this post, then I surely cannot feign shock that you would so easily misread my intentions more generally.

    “I wish you luck in patching up the dilapidated ‘house’ that is NT.”

    Why would you wish me ‘luck’ at such a task, if you find the house of such limited value?

    “Few find much comfort in it these days.”

    I daresay the numbers constitute a “few” more than the ‘few’ to whom you refer. You acknowledge, after all, that there are substantially fewer than “few” in your OWN acquaintance.

    “Most people are just too educated now to be so easily led by faith alone.”

    “God chose things the world considers foolish in order to shame those who think they are wise.”

    “Belief, you see, is falsifiable, and Xtianity never had any evidence.”

    Define “evidence” as you employ the term.

    “When the time is right, Israel will testify.”

    Quite so; however, as presently constituted, Israel is no more equipped to testify

    — than the Goyim are ready to receive testimony.

  47. @ yamit82:

    “Like most, Asher Meza doesn’t understand Torah learning the ‘Jewish’ way”

    “What way is that?”

    “Opposite to Greek learning”

    “It was a fair question, Mr G. It was entitled to a real answer.

    “It was and he gave it.”

    Not hardly.

    But then, he rarely (if ever) does give answers — let alone, real ones.

    Lacks the intellectual discipline (to say nothing of the intellectual courage) to do so.

    You cannot identify a matter or process by merely characterizing it as the “contrary” of another one unless you positively identify the other one at the same time. He didn’t.

    It’s as if somebody asked me the name of my eldest son, and I answered, ‘It’s the name belonging to the one who isn’t the youngest.’

    You may find that acceptable.

    But my guess would be that if it hadn’t been YoursTruly that challenged it

    — YOU wouldn’t have found it very satisfactory either.

  48. @ bernard ross:

    “There is no Jewish attestation or support of the NT narrative as factual.”

    Define “Jewish attestation or support.”

    1-ATTESTATION: is the process of validating that something is true……
    2-SUPPORT: to maintain or advocate (a theory, principle, etc.).
    3-FACTUAL: actually occurring.

    Two out of three, so far. Should I be impressed?

    {“Factual” was not part of the phrase for which I asked your definition. You only offered it as a distracting substitute for the third, as yet unaddressed, element, “Jewish.” But of course, it CANNOT substitute for it.}

    “Now show us all the next tactic you will come up with to WEASEL out of that fact, I am without one shred of doubt that you will try to weasel yourself out.”

    ‘Tactic’???

    Translation: This is strictly Mr Ross’s OWN weasel-way of trying to cover his exposed arse from the obvious fact that he has left a key element of the phrase — arguably the crucial element in it — undefined.

    He assumes that a reader will let this cutesy little exercise of his imply that he has been forthcoming thus far — kind of like the way the Mullahs have been ‘forthcoming’ in negotiating their nuclear ambitions

    — and let him quietly slide the rest of the way home. (TEHRAN may have reason to think it can skate, but BR is much mistaken.)

    I continue to await the full definition of the term as you use it, Weasel: “Jewish attestation & support.”

  49. @ bernard ross:

    “There is no Jewish attestation or support of the NT narrative as factual.”

    “Instead of defining ‘Jewish sources’ after I asked you — many times — to do so, you changed the expression to ‘Jewish attestation & support.’ You still haven’t defined that either. I’m still awaiting a definition.”

    “you keep pretending I am saying Jewish sources.”

    “The pretending is strictly yours. The language is equivalent — six of one, half-dozen of the other — and you still haven’t defined it, despite my continued request. I want your definition as you use it.

    “get a dictionary”

    “This is just more of your transparent evasiveness. I don’t need a dictionary. I need your definition of the language you use as you use it.”

    “You are a damn liar.”

    I am nothing of the kind. Not on this blogsite I’m not.

    “you said the same thing asking me for my definition of Christian…”

    What I asked you for was your definition of “Christian sources ” (and for the same reason) since you had introduced the expression into the exchange & used the expression profusely w/o ever defining it. You like playing this game of introducing language that you can use to control the direction of discourse, because the words remain undefined.

    Homey DON’T play that shit. . . .

    ” and I provided you 3 dictionary definitions of Christian and you then spent weeks denying the definitions.”

    No, I noted that contemporary lexicographers are at best sloppy & at worst disingenuous (to say nothing of breathtakingly arrogant) in that for a technical matter like this, they consulted with everybody EXCEPT those who, as an ideologically definable group, actually apply the term in a systematic way to themselves.

    — YOU spent three weeks defending that dictionary drivel because — and only because — you found it rhetorically convenient (despite its intellectual dishonesty).

    Meanwhile you never did give me your definition of “Christian sources,” as you use it.

    Instead, after receiving MANY such requests for your definition, you finally said of “Christian sources,” that they are “sources which are christian” — a stupifyingly lame remark which was no definition at all, not only because it used the phrase to define itself, but also — & more significantly

    — because it expedited your persistent weaseling out of my question (asked numerous times) about those independent, non-church-affiliated scholars who simply specialize in NT studies as an academic discipline: — would they constitute “Christian sources” by your reckoning?

    “you could have looked up each word you do not understand in a dictionary.”

    There was never any issue of my not understanding what the dictionary says about ANY phrase — and you knew that all along. The issue was your USE of the expression “Jewish attestation and support” as you use it — and I’m still awaiting your definition. Stop evading the question — and quit insulting a reader’s intelligence.