Chit Chat

By Ted Belman

From now on comments on every post must relate to the content of the post.

Comments that don’t relate to the post must go here.

Any person who contravenes this demand will be put on moderation. Also their offending comment will be trashed.

The reason for this demand is so that people who want to read comments which pertain to the post, don’t have to wade through the chatter.

Everyone will be happier.

April 16, 2020 | 7,781 Comments »

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50 Comments / 7781 Comments

  1. dweller Said:

    “There is absolutely no reason why ACTS, as a history,

    NOT a history, I already gave you definitions of history, do you have Alzheimers? just a story, like goldilocks and the 3 talking bears.
    dweller Said:

    He was given AMPLE opportunity to show me to have been factually wrong just one solitary time: wrt further usages of the word “Christian”

    no reason to, you were given 3 dictionary defintions of the word “christian” and then you said your fable quoted “neighbors”. No “neighbors” were in your fable and then you went to another tangent. The dictionary definitions are correct and your red herrings are meaningless and irrelevant. You are going around in circles repeating the same things over and over like an Alzheimer nursing home patient with a memory retention of less than 5 seconds.
    dweller Said to yamit:

    “You have not established that they are not factual; nor have you established that they are ‘ahistorical.’

    the overwhelming evidence submitted in his videos indeed established those as reasonable assumptions whereas you never submitted anything but support from christian sources which we already established as having the credibility of Jew defamers, libelers and slaughterers.

    dweller Said:

    The ‘facts’ he’s posted are all speculative as to whether the gospel narratives are true.

    rubbish it is your luducrous and facetious fairy tales of gods mating with women and popping out ungodly jewish messiahs which are at best, “speculative” and lacking any support whatsoever, other than your christian sources.
    dweller Said:

    You don’t KNOW the gospel record to be a ‘lie.’Your characterization is strictly an assumption.

    a greater assumption would be that goldilocks and her 3 talking bears are a lie, but her story is much more believable, after all there are animals who have been taught to talk whereas I have never heard of anyone seeing a god mate a woman and pooping out a jewish messiah…… that is surely one for the books… your NT book.
    dweller Said:

    Like you, he conveniently overlooks the fact that COMPILATION was done — by gentiles — some centuries after the original WRITING had been done by Jews.

    LOL, still up on your JW soapbox are you? Compilation, revision, burning, etc all were done after the hijacking of the hebrew bible…
    no way to know who wrote them an whether they were serious or were just writing a novel. you submitted NOT ONE SHRED of evidence that it was written by Jews and even if it were it would have not one shred of relevancy to whether it was fact. You keep rehashing the same ludicrous arguments you began with:
    that Jews came up seriously with a story of a god making a woman pregnant and popping out a jewish messiah.

  2. @ <a href=”#comment-63356000149803″ title=”Go to comment of this author”>bernard ross:
    @ yamit82:

    Don’t worry guys. The church will be brought to it’s knees. It’s not a matter of if it’s a matter of when. In our lifetime….well mine anyways. 🙂

  3. @ bernard ross:

    “The Jews transmitted their culture without Christian acquiescence…

    “you have already admitted that they were able to transmit it without christian acquiescence.”

    Have ‘admitted’ nothing. You’ve simply tried to win an asinine & meaningless rhetorical point. I told you: one doesn’t speak of ‘acquiescence’ on behalf of a party who is in no position to refuse.

    “Jewish means and method of transmission is nearly 100% flawless.”

    “Sure — as long as the dominant culture was Jewish.”

    “as long as Jews are able to control the transmission. Only one copy needs to get through.”

    Only one copy needs to get through for what?

    You make it sound like a bacillus (only one need get thru to produce an epidemic?).

    Torot were written by hand.

    “You cannot compare jewish transmission with the transmission of [Xtns] wrt Jewish issues.”

    Why not?

    “i am astounded that this is not the major issue for you, that you take their documents as credible.”

    I know when something’s been tampered with or is otherwise not right
    YOU may not be able to, but then, you’ve never read the NT — or the ‘OT.’ So the question is academic for you.

    “Are the New Testament gospels history? Where’s the proof? | Acharya S | D.M. Murdock”

    “She doesn’t like the burden of disproving what is generally accepted as factual, and disclaims the burden on the fanciful grounds that ‘extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof’ — an interesting concept, but hollow. She is the moving party and carries the burden.

    Had HER view been the established one, a Xtn challenge to it would then have the burden, and HER position would hold the presumption of veracity. That’s standard forensic procedure. Under the circumstances, she can simply maintain that the gospel claims are ‘Unproven’; I see no problem with that. But she cannot demand an inversion of the burden and the presumption.”

    “He who asserts facts must present the evidence and support.”

    In that case, what’s the ‘evidence’ that David killed Goliath? Absent the ‘evidence,’ shall we simply conclude that it never happened?

    “Certainly you could not have the temerity to assert that your claims [that the only true God conceived] with a [Jewish] woman [the] messiah are ‘generally accepted as factual’…”

    You bet I’ve got the ‘temerity’ to assert that it’s generally accepted as factual. Certainly stateside it is accepted; anybody who claims to be “Xtn” accepts it, and most Americans purport to be Xtns. And worldwide, Xty remains, for better or for worse, to be the most dominant of all religions (continuing to grow at an astonishing rate); so they all accept the gospel narrative.

    And lots of NON-Xtns subscribe to much of the factuality of that narrative as well.

  4. @ bernard ross:

    “The Jews transmitted their culture without Christian acquiescence…”

    “Proof, please.”

    “Well I suppose [you] never heard of the Dead Sea Scrolls Isiah scroll almost 100% intact and there are no deviations from the texts we use today. Meaning: Jewish means and method of transmission is nearly 100% flawless.”

    “Sure — as long as the dominant culture was Jewish. Clearly I was talking about one which was dominated by gentiles , and where Jews constituted a tiny minority. In such a situation, whatever was published appeared only w/ the acquiescence — whether declared or by default — of the broader society.”

    “the adoring acolyte of christian revisionism applies his skills in revising his own statements.”

    I revised NOTHING. You cannot speak of Xtn acquiescence UNLESS they are in the majority; its meaningless to speak of acquiescence where they DON’T dominate. One doesn’t speak of Xtn acquiescence to Jewish publishing in Israel. Your arguments get stupider by the hour.

    “clearly you made a statement that the Hebrew bible was subject to christian acquiescence for its transmission and trying to equate it with my statement that there is no NT that was not filtered and transmitted by christianity.”

    I did indeed so equate it, and quite successfully.

    “My statement remains true that there was no transmission of the NT that was not filtered through Christianity whereas versions of the hebrew bible did pass down unfiltered through christianity.”

    And how could that happen in a Xtn culture? (are you saying it was done in secret, so the goyim never knew???)

    If it happened in a Xtn culture, then it was INDEED ‘filtered’ thru Xty. They may have simply elected to not mess with it, but that does not mean they COULDN’T have, had they so chosen. The inescapable fact is that they had the power to do so. If they did not exercise it, that constituted acquiescence, whether overt or implicit.

    “You try to make everything complicated but the same simple principle remains…”

    Yes, your sheer hatred for Xtns, grounded in your insecurity over your own ‘Jewishness.’ Simple indeed. All the rest is window-dressing.

    You are one malicious, obnoxious, and thoroughly un-principled putz.

  5. @ dove:

    “Your a ditto of the Paul character.”

    You’re a ditto of every insecure Jew on this blog. They seek the support of other ones, and they shore up their “Jewish” credentials by putting down those Jews who don’t conform.

    They are phonies, and so are you.

    “Very disliked by the Jewish people….for GOOD REASON!”

    Obviously you don’t know very many Jewish people

    — but you’re terrified that the ones you DO know won’t like you.

  6. @ bernard ross:

    “surely you could have shown us the reason and logic behind your assertion that [Jesus] popped out of the womb of a virgin after [the Spirit of God] has a union with her, and……. resulted in [the] messiah who, although born of a union of [the Almighty] and a [Jewish] woman had absolutely no godlike powers (apparently your god had very weak genes and could not even create a half god)”

    “A true God has no genes at all. He’s self-existent & eternal and isn’t physical; thus has no need to perpetuate Himself, so He isn’t ‘sexual’ either.

    The Messiah, who was born of that special creation, had no more ‘godlike powers’ than did Adam, who was ALSO born of a special creation. No reason to have ‘special powers,’ in either instance.

    Like Adam (before the latter’s initial disobedience), he had a bright nature, which was not subject to compulsiveness. Unlike Adam, however, he never yielded to temptation; thus never lost that bright nature.

    Thus the Adversary had no choice but to arrange his death — as was intended before the Adversary ever knew it.”

    “The devil knoweth not for Whom he works.”

    “did you make it up”

    No.

    “did you get it from your intuition”

    Part of it.

    “did you read about it in your NT”

    Part of it.

    Mostly, however, I offered it in reply to your request for the “reason & logic” that led to those conclusions, because reason & logic — based on those other things — most certainly did enter into it. Guess you weren’t really interested, were you, in that part at all, despite what you’d said. You’re such a transparent fake.

    “Adam was not born, he was fashioned from the earth but you say your nitzri was the progeny of a union between a god and a woman. Adam was created but you say your nitzri was born of a woman…”

    Not born in the usual way. They were thus EACH a direct creation, a special creation. Neither was pre-existent, nor self-existent.

    “How did you know a god did a deed inside her, who told you, from where did that info come?”

    Why do you ask? — It really doesn’t matter HOW I answer, does it, because in the the end you will believe what it suits you to believe.

    “Are you sure [the] adversary didn’t do that deed inside her?”

    Yes, I’m sure. OTOH, he does seem to have done a number on you.

  7. @ bernard ross:

    “the christians used the hebrew bible as the basis for their NT do you deny that fact?…”

    “I deny that YOU ‘know’ it to be a fact; which is more to the point here.”

    “Irrelevant tangent and red herring; what I know is not the point but whether the Christians hijacked the hebrew bible.”

    Neither irrelevant nor tangential, nor a ‘red herring.’ What you know is INDEED to the point insofar as you can even have standing to argue or be listened to. Why should anybody take seriously the claims of one who has not examined the primary materials over which he disputes???

    “Obviously you cannot deny the fact”

    I certainly CAN deny the claim, but I will not argue the matter with a flagrant ignoramus.

  8. @ yamit82:

    @ bernard ross:

    “You will love this!”

    Well, of course he would.

    Like you, he conveniently overlooks the fact that COMPILATION was done — by gentiles — some centuries after the original WRITING had been done by Jews.

  9. @ bernard ross:

    Acts is a chronicle; a history — completed BEFORE destruction of the Temple. Talmud, OTOH, is legal commentary, w/ its own characteristic internal discipline — and the earliest part of which would not even begin to be written for well over a century AFTER the Book of Acts was completed.

    “Moreover, Talmud’s ‘norm’ of not repeating certain things is not specific to matters Jewish so much as it is specific to matters (originally) ORAL — as an oral discourse is one which must be memorized, and the fewer things that need to be committed to memory, the lesser the burden on the party charged w/ memorization. Jewish written literature that wasn’t originally oral does not maintain such a ‘norm.’ No reason it would.

    “There is absolutely no reason why ACTS, as a history, would not continue to call the disciples ‘Christians’ from the point where it first mentions the name all the way until the end of the narrative — if that had, in fact, been their accepted name for themselves ; it wasn’t. The reference in 11:26 is clearly a convenient handle for them used informally by outsiders, nothing more.

    “The very word, Christian, itself does not appear anywhere ever again THROUGHOUT the entire NewTestament, aside from one, solitary, stylized usage of it in 1 Pet 4:16 — and then not as a self-designation of members of a group (nor, indeed, as a ‘name’ of any kind), but purely as a reference to one who suffers persecution because of his faith in The Christ.

    “Of course if you think there ARE other such references to ‘Xtn’ to be found in NT, I welcome you to show them to me; I dare you to show them to me.”

    “If you believe that ANYTHING I’ve said above is not so, then I cordially invite you to show me examples which stand as exceptions to that remark, and thereby challenge it.”

    “I don’t have to but I can”

    “Horseshit, and horseshit. A single exception to the rule I laid down (WRT Jewish writ lit) is all you would’ve needed, if you had a case. And if you had such an exception, you’d’ve wasted no time hauling it out & pounding me senseless w/ it, accompanied by fanfare & flourishes. You’d’ve been all over me like a cheap suit w/in the space of a fetal heartbeat.

    You’ve got nothing. You know it. I know it. And you know I know it.”

    “he has been pounding you senseless but you dont realize it because you were senseless to begin with…..

    This is sheer, empty rhetoric. YOU’ve got nothing more of substance than Huff’n’puff himself has got.

    He was given AMPLE opportunity to show me to have been factually wrong just one solitary time: wrt further usages of the word “Christian” in NT, or other instances of Jewish literature (apart from originally oral material) where repetition of special language is avoided (as in Talmud)

    — yet has produced, thus far, not one single instance of that. He’s all palaver. And so are you.

    “A self-existent, truly everlasting Being has no need to perpetuate Itself. ‘God is a SPIRIT…’ Jn 4:24″

    “more gratuitous NT quotes from your pulpit?”

    So you DON’T believe God is a spirit? (Some ‘Jew’ YOU are. . . .)

    And what’s ‘gratuitous’ about noting that a true God could not be corporeal or physical??? In context, the observation was very MUCH in order, since you had compared the nativity narrative to the tales of pagan gods (who were physical) mating sexually w/ human women — an moronic analogy from Square One.

    “The rabbis would not talk to [Jesus] because it’s like a high-school graduate wanting to have a debate with the university professors; he wouldn’t even get an appointment.”

    “He wouldn’t need one. The learned doctors in the Temple seem to have thought he was pretty sharp, even as early as age 12. See Lk 2:41-52.”

    “There you go again equating NT gospels which we have established have no factual or historical credence.”

    “You have not established that they are not factual; nor have you established that they are ‘ahistorical.’

    (Nor have you established the factuality or historicity of Eliyahu or Avraham or Shmuel when asked.)

    All you’ve done thus far is run ’round in circles pushing your fantasy agenda of ‘debunking’ something you can’t even get your head around. And the prodigious strenuousness of the effort is more than a little amusing.”

    “Yamit keeps posting more and more relevant and interesting facts…”

    Relevant to what? The ‘facts’ he’s posted are all speculative as to whether the gospel narratives are true. His postings are mostly rehashings of tired claims of buddhist & atheist cranks.

    Again, all he has really shown is that it’s damned hard to ‘prove’ a negative. But then, like you, he isn’t honestly seeking to discover the truth. He just wants reinforcement & validation for a preexisting position. So anything he can find that makes noises he likes to hear will do.

    “…about the big lie.”

    You don’t KNOW the gospel record to be a ‘lie.’Your characterization is strictly an assumption.

    (In fact, if I had the same, undisciplined, strictly partisan and unobjective, non-scientific attitude you display, I could call YOUR words “a big lie.”)

  10. yamit82 Said:

    You will love this!!!!!!

    yep, that argument that the romans wrote it to pacify and subject the jews makes more sense daily, after that they opened more franchises.

  11. bernard ross Said:

    I think his stories about himself are false and like Paul becomes as Jew when with the Jews.

    That has always been my take on him…. I will tell you some time how many holes and contradictions I’ve picked up on him that make his personal claims too implausible to be true. I have long maintained that the NT could never have been authored by Jews and that Paul most assuredly could not have been a Jew.

    All of th clips I have posted are by gentiles not Jews.

    Jews are still too afraid of chrisitians to stick their sorry necks out…. 😉

  12. yamit82 Said:

    Pls watch this:

    Dweller appears to be trying the same “shoehorning of Jesus” into the Hebrew Bible. there is so much presented against his arguments to which he has not answered. The videos are good and to the point, he obviously is ignoring them. where does he get this stuff of a god in a “union” with a woman pooping out a Jewish messiah? I can understand the chrisians but I thought he had more sense. Why would he choose to believe the dark side if he was a Jew or even a secular? I think his stories about himself are false and like Paul becomes as Jew when with the Jews.

  13. @ yamit82:

    todah rabbah!

    I am very fortunate. I have a Rabbi teaching me one on one plus I have audio, video and print lessons. I study hebrew every day between my once a week classes with the Rabbi. Right now we are on a winter break and classes should resume soon. I still study every day so I don’t forget what I have already learn.

    I can read Hebrew now! I am so excited to have learned so much in a short time! It really is my mother tongue. It’s seems so natural.

    shavoo’ah tov!

  14. bernard ross Said:

    His only [non] argument (lucky him) is that you didnt make the argument yourself

    A- dweller maintains that he writes for the widest audience and not just for us.
    B- My statement is the videos that he can agree with or not but in the very slim chance anyone besides us reads this stuff I’m sure they will enjoy and comprehend the the clips I have selected and posted. They are straight forward arguments with references and I accept most of their arguments so why should as he does take others arguments and rearrange a few words and call them my own. I submit their arguments as my own and stand with them unless and until they are refuted with facts or good credible rational and or logical arguments against.
    Besides our arguments he now has to contend with audio visuals and his comments today re” clips I posted means that when he chooses he can watch and hear the videos so I assume he can do the same the with ones I posted today.

    I can beat him 3 ways to Sunday either with the argument of the whole christian BS narrative as an a- historical myth and farce but that even if shown to be not fully myth certainly I have shown his messiah not to be in truth and fact in fact it’s an impossibility.

    C- I have also demonstrated that the god he claims as his is not the same god as the biblical G-d of the Jews.

    He loses every which way he turns.

  15. @ bernard ross:

    Evidence Paul was not Jewish:

    1 Thessalonians 2:14-16New International Version (NIV)

    14 For you, brothers and sisters, became imitators of God’s churches in Judea, which are in Christ Jesus: You suffered from your own people the same things those churches suffered from the Jews 15 who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out. They displease God and are hostile to everyone 16 in their effort to keep us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. In this way they always heap up their sins to the limit. The wrath of God has come upon them at last

  16. yamit82 Said:

    Making a Messiah

    he cant watch videos, so he has his escape route pre aaranged. you have carpet bombed him with facts about his NT, authorship, Messiah, christian misrepresentation and revision of the Hebrew bible, etc etc etc. I notice that he gives no rebuttal of any of the facts asserted. His arguments are repeatedly turned into mince meat. His only [non] argument (lucky him) is that you didnt make the argument yourself
    😛 😛 😛

  17. @ dweller:
    @ bernard ross:

    1 Timothy 2:11-15New International Version (NIV)

    11 A woman[a] should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man;[b] she must be quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15 But women[c] will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

    Jews offspring of Satan 🙂

    John 8:42-44New International Version (NIV)

    42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me. 43 Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

    Titus 1:10-14New International Version (NIV)
    Rebuking Those Who Fail to Do Good

    10 For there are many rebellious people, full of meaningless talk and deception, especially those of the circumcision group. 11 They must be silenced, because they are disrupting whole households by teaching things they ought not to teach—and that for the sake of dishonest gain. 12 One of Crete’s own prophets has said it: “Cretans are always liars, evil brutes, lazy gluttons.”[a] 13 This saying is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, so that they will be sound in the faith 14 and will pay no attention to Jewish myths or to the merely human commands of those who reject the truth.

  18. dweller Said:

    A true God has no genes at all. He’s self-existent & eternal and isn’t physical; thus has no need to perpetuate Himself, so He isn’t ‘sexual’ either.

    The Messiah, who was born of that special creation, had no more ‘godlike powers’ than did Adam, who was ALSO born of a special creation. No reason to have ‘special powers,’ in either instance.

    Like Adam (before the latter’s initial disobedience), he had a bright nature, which was not subject to compulsiveness. Unlike Adam, however, he never yielded to temptation; thus never lost that bright nature.

    Thus the Adversary had no choice but to arrange his death — as was intended before the Adversary ever knew it.

    Such a fairy tale, who told you this bedtime story? did you make it up, did you get it from your “intuition”, did you read about it in your NT; which NT version did you use?

    Adam was not born, he was fashioned from the earth but you say your nitzri was the progeny of a union between a god and a woman. Adam was created but you say your nitzri was born of a woman… How did you know a god did a deed inside her, who told you, from where did that info come? Are you sure your “adversary” didn’t do that deed inside her?

  19. dweller Said:

    “The Jews transmitted their culture without Christian acquiescence…”

    you have already admitted that they were able to transmit it without christian acquiescence.

    Yamit Said:

    Meaning: Jewish means and method of transmission is nearly 100% flawless.”
    Dweller said:
    Sure — as long as the dominant culture was Jewish.

    as long as Jews are able to control the transmission. Only one copy needs to get through. You cannot compare jewish transmission with the transmission of jew libelers wrt Jewish issues. i am astounded that this is not the major issue for you, that you take their documents as credible. But then that is what most christians would naturally do, though not all.
    dweller Said:

    She doesn’t like the burden of disproving what is generally accepted as factual, and disclaims the burden on the fanciful grounds that “extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof” — an interesting concept, but hollow. She is the moving party and carries the burden.

    Your statement has no basis in logic. He who asserts facts must present the evidence and support. Certainly you could not have the temerity to assert that your claims of a a god in a union with a woman produced a jewish messiah are “generally accepted as factual”. In asserting a fact an argument can assert “self evidence” but this argument would be untenable if asserting the 3 talking bears of goldilocks or the half god man born of a union between a god and a woman.

  20. dweller Said:

    What’s more, I’ve never been a ‘christian’ — — I’ve always said Jesus was cool; never said Jesus was ‘God.’ I was the hazzan’s protégé in my parents’ shul till I went off to the university.

    LOL, You said that your nitzri was the Jewish messiah who was born from a virgin as a result of a union between a god and a woman. What did you hazzan think of your “judaism”? Did you forget the 3 dictionary definitions of a Christian that I posted for your enlightenment already: that a christian is a follower of Jesus (who woulda thought…?)?
    dweller Said:

    The original issue here, remember, was not whether the Jewish-written NT — which, in the present age, only gentile Xtns relate to — incorporates a faithful (viz., accurate) rendering & interpretation of Tanach, but whether “Christendom”s intentions wrt Tanach are trustworthy & HONORABLE.

    the original issue was indeed that the only NT’s in existence were filtered through christianity and that the 2000 years of defaming, libleing, swindling, torturing,book burning, slaughtering which christianity visited upon the jews after hijacking the hebrew bible rendered them a completely incredulous source wrt any NT issue… including claims of it being a Jewish source, the existence of jesus and the factual assertions therein…… it is a totally stained source. You appear to have twisted it into the christian rendition of the tanakh as opposed to the NT itself.
    It still remains as it did pages ago that there is no evidence or support for the existence of Jesus, his disciples,etc as the only support for it comes from the NT filtered through the hands of despicable persecutors of the Jews. All the same parameters of argument at the beginning remain the same. Stained NT, stained christianity, stained unsupported assertions, a potpouri of sewage from stained sources which you keep resubmitting in various tricky ways. Its all still the same BS.

  21. Bernard Ross Said:

    “The Jews transmitted their culture without Christian acquiescence…”
    Dwellers Said:
    “Proof, please.”
    Yamit said:
    “Well I suppose [you] never heard of the Dead Sea Scrolls Isiah scroll almost 100% intact and there are no deviations from the texts we use today. Meaning: Jewish means and method of transmission is nearly 100% flawless.”
    Dweller said:
    Sure — as long as the dominant culture was Jewish. Clearly I was talking about one which was dominated by gentiles , and where Jews constituted a tiny minority. In such a situation, whatever was published appeared only w/ the acquiescence — whether declared or by default — of the broader society.

    the adoring acolyte of christian revisionism applies his skills in revising his own statements. LOL, clearly you made a statement that the Hebrew bible was subject to christian acquiescence for its transmission and trying to equate it with my statement that there is no NT that was not filtered and transmitted by christianity. Its ok, we understand, becausse you also said countless times that you NEVER lie; I think you referred to it as “marketing”. 😛 😛 😛
    My statement remains true that there was no transmission of the NT that was not filtered through Christianity whereas versions of the hebrew bible did pass down unfiltered through christianity. Christian filtering, transmission etc marks it as an incredulous source because those who hijacked the hebrew bible and swindled, libeled, defamed and tortured the jews for 2000 years cannot be trusted to speak the truth about the Jews.
    You try to make everything complicated but the same simple principle remains spite of the many pages and mountains of intentionally obfuscating posts you have attempted here.

  22. Bernard Ross Said:

    “the christians used the hebrew bible as the basis for their NT do you deny that fact?…
    Dweller said
    I deny that YOU ‘know’ it to be a fact; which is more to the point here.

    Irrelevant tangent and red herring; what I know is not the point but whether the Christians hijacked the hebrew bible. Obviously you cannot deny the fact and therefore seek a red herring as another tangent.

    Bernard Ross Said:

    “Why introduce your fetishes here, they are irrelevant to the discussion?”

    “fet·ish noun. a form of sexual desire in which gratification is linked to an abnormal degree to a particular ……part of the body”

    the following are YOUR words, not mine, perhaps you can explain how they do not represent YOUR fetish?“
    Dweller said:
    “….if you didn’t have your brains lodged between your cheeks. And I don’t mean the cheeks that sit on your face — I mean the cheeks you sit on.”

    THOSE words? — Well, that’s easy: They don’t represent any ‘sexual desire’ of mine; rather, a dry, uncluttered observation of what happens to malicious persons.

    really, why would you conjure up such a perverted and deviant imagery? I am sure you could have other observations of what happens to “malicious persons”. It appears to say more about YOU and your proclivities, your obsessions, your perversions than about any “malicious persons”.

  23. @ bernard ross:

    “There’s also something called Reason; it’s typically accompanied by an appreciation for logic.”

    “surely you could have shown us the reason and logic behind your assertion that [Jesus] popped out of the womb of a virgin after [the Spirit of God] has a union with her, and……. resulted in [the] messiah who, although born of a union of [the Almighty] and a [Jewish] woman had absolutely no godlike powers (apparently your god had very weak genes and could not even create a half god)”

    A true God has no genes at all. He’s self-existent & eternal and isn’t physical; thus has no need to perpetuate Himself, so He isn’t ‘sexual’ either.

    The Messiah, who was born of that special creation, had no more ‘godlike powers’ than did Adam, who was ALSO born of a special creation. No reason to have ‘special powers,’ in either instance.

    Like Adam (before the latter’s initial disobedience), he had a bright nature, which was not subject to compulsiveness. Unlike Adam, however, he never yielded to temptation; thus never lost that bright nature.

    Thus the Adversary had no choice but to arrange his death — as was intended before the Adversary ever knew it.

    “The devil knoweth not for Whom he works.”

  24. @ yamit82:
    @ dweller:

    “Real Proof that Jesus was NOT real”

    “If this is the actual TITLE of the video, then I have seen it before. And notwithstanding such a title & claim, it does NOT, in fact, provide ‘proof’ of any sort (thin or solid) ‘that Jesus was NOT real.’

    All that it does do is to show that the imagery attendant to the narrative about JC had long been part of the collective consciousness of humanity, as encoded in the very structure of the universe, before his actual advent (matters which I recognized 40 yrs ago, and over which observations I’ve never had a problem).

    To go from that, however, to suggesting that it must therefore not be historical & literal as to haNitzri constitutes ITSELF a leap of faith grounded in sheer speculation — and not a snort more.”

    “No not the same video must have the same name, You just wasted time writing about something else and not Germain.”

    “Same running time, just under 11 minutes. If it isn’t as I described it, then summarize it.”

    Have now watched the video. It is INDEED the same one, as I stated. 10:47, total running time.

    My assessment, as offered earlier, stands; what the clip offers does not constitute ‘proof’ of anything, but sheer speculation based on the fact that the gospel narrative incorporates much imagery which was already existent elsewhere, and symbolism seemingly encoded in the very structure of the universe. Circumstantial evidence is not probative.

  25. @ yamit82:

    “Are the New Testament gospels history? Where’s the proof? | Acharya S | D.M. Murdock”

    She doesn’t like the burden of disproving what is generally accepted as factual, and disclaims the burden on the fanciful grounds that “extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof” — an interesting concept, but hollow. She is the moving party and carries the burden.

    Had HER view been the established one, a Xtn challenge to it would then have the burden, and HER position would hold the presumption of veracity. That’s standard forensic procedure.

    Under the circumstances, she can simply maintain that the gospel claims are “Unproven”; I see no problem with that. But she cannot demand an inversion of the burden and the presumption.

  26. @ yamit82:

    “The Jews transmitted their culture without Christian acquiescence…”

    “Proof, please.”

    “I suppose [you] never heard of the Dead Sea Scrolls Isiah scroll almost 100% intact and there are no deviations from the texts we use today. Meaning: Jewish means and method of transmission is nearly 100% flawless.”

    “Sure — as long as the dominant culture was Jewish. Clearly I was talking about one which was dominated by gentiles, and where Jews constituted a tiny minority. In such a situation, whatever was published appeared only w/ the acquiescence — whether declared or by default — of the broader society.”

    “You really don’t know much about Jewish Mesorah, the system was perfect and fool proof, even under extreme duress which happened from time to time.”

    Once again, you miss the point. (Not very quick on the uptake at 3 am, are you?) The reason the mesorah is reliable is not that it’s ‘foolproof,’ but that the broader Xtn culture wasn’t INTERESTED in controlling what Jews published. It may have had its own differing perspective, but it wasn’t bent on throttling or interfering with any other one; certainly not in the New World, it wasn’t.

    And if the broader Xtn culture WASN’T interested in silencing or twisting a Jewish p-o-v, then it seems less-than-likely that its own take on the “OT” — while diverging, in some respects from the mainstream Jewish one — would NECESSARILY represent an intentional misstatement of what it knew to be true.

    The original issue here, remember, was not whether the Jewish-written NT — which, in the present age, only gentile Xtns relate to — incorporates a faithful (viz., accurate) rendering & interpretation of Tanach, but whether “Christendom”s intentions wrt Tanach are trustworthy & HONORABLE.

    “I can’t as you asked a few times… prove Abraham ever lived but we do have what is considered his traditional tomb accepted and revered by All nations Muslim Christian and Jewish, we also have Rachel’s Tomb and Joseph’s Tomb. Are they all the real tombs of real historical figures?”

    “To me they are. But then, I never needed ‘proof’…”

    “You don’t need proof of anything do you?”

    I know WHEN I need proof and when I don’t.

    I know which things require proving, and which things don’t.

    I knew, for sure, e.g., that I needed proof for the absurdly outlandish statement that “The Jews transmitted their culture without Christian acquiescence…”

    Just knowing how Europe had been convulsed in the intra -Xtn struggle — over the printing of (& popular access to) the Bible[s], heresy, witchcraft, monarchical successions, the 30-yrs’ War, etc — made it unmistakably plain that if they’d actually wanted to prevent, direct, or distort Jewish production of Tanachim, that they sure-as-hell could have.

    “Your tunned in antennae never pick up any negative vibes about the BS and contradictions forgeries and outright lies in [NT]?”

    Don’t recall any forgeries, BS, or outright lies in it. I maintain a personal policy of leaving any (apparent) contradiction an open question till I have greater clarity in a matter (& that goes for ANYTHING I’m called upon to deal with, incl Tanach).

    As for bad vibes — frankly, boychik, I think you know that I pick up way more of that from certain quarters of this blogsite than from any conjured malevolence emanating from the pages of NT itself (or even from those clumsies who use it as a bludgeon).

    “Tell me you got a tomb for yeshu?”

    Of course not. No tomb could hold him. That was the point. . . .

    “Even I can think of several even more plausible and logical explanations than the one you subscribe… to.”

    And can you ALSO think of a more ‘plausible’ & ‘logical’ one for the sudden bursting into flame of Elijah’s sacrifice after both the offering AND the stone altar it rested on had been drenched w/ bucket after bucket of water? — flame that licked up even the water in the trench around the altar?

    “It ain’t history dweller it’s pagan myth”

    And the above-noted event [1 Melachim 18]: is THAT history or “pagan myth”?

  27. @ yamit82:

    “The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many’…

    Yes, he brought them WITH him when he returned from the place of the dead. They had died (before his advent) trusting in his coming. ‘…he that believes in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live …’ Jn 11:25”

    “So then what did his zombies do carry on their lives as if nothing happened to them?”

    No more than HE carried on his OWN life as if nothing happened to him. He “ascended,” entered another dimension apparently — and took them with him, even as he had taken them with him from the underworld where they had awaited his coming after they died.

    “That period of historic was one of the most prol[if]ic literary periods and if something like that had happened there would be some extra biblical writing and notice of such a thing.”

    Not necessarily”: In the 1st century there was little Jewish religious writing of ANY sort, because of rabbinical POLICY:

    “Almost all of the books of the NT were written by Jews, many of them during one of the most eventful periods of Jewish history: just before and just after the destruction of the 2nd Temple (70 CE).

    “Very few Jewish writings from that century survive, and none by the rabbis, the representatives of what soon became normative Judaism, since the rabbis of that period felt that their teachings had to remain oral (a position they eventually abandoned).

    So really the only surviving religious books written by Jews in the 1st & 2nd centuries are a few of the later Dead Sea Scrolls and the New Testament.”

    “Pathetic attempt but you ain’t got much going for you in this one.”

    LMSS. In 8 years of posting, what comment of mine have you NOT, essentially, said that about?

    “Think I’ll [c]all you Zombie man.”

    ANYBODY who believes in the resurrection of the dead is a ‘Zombie man’ — and that would include the peyroushim [Pharisees] (who would later form the basis of post-Temple, rabbinical Judaism).

  28. @ dove:

    “I see ‘lone wolf’ cellar dweller is still at it.”

    Given a choice? — Better solitary lupine dignity than herd-driven bovine cowardice; any time, any day, hands down.

    No cellar for this dweller. “He who dwells in the secret place of the Most High will abide secure in the shadow of the Almighty.”

    @ dove:

    “From your version – [Jeshua haNitzri] would have been a Torah Jew that made it to the ‘top’.”

    Nope; from my ‘version,’ he was/is a Torah Jew who was born at the ‘top,’ conceived at the top, MADE at the top. He couldn’t have successfully completed his mission had it been otherwise.

    “He was still a man – not a godman.”

    No need to convince ME of that. It’s these other turkeys who are insisting that ‘if he were real,’ then with God for a Father, he would himself have had to be a ‘godman.’

    As I’ve told them, however, Jesus’ mission required (among other things) that he die.

    — And a ‘half-god’ cannot die (any more than a half-wit can reason).

    Then again, of course, if you ask the clique, they will readily tell you Jesus ‘never existed’ — that the ENTIRE gospel narrative is strictly a bubbe meise, a myth, a hoax, a legend, a fairy tale.

    “We real Jews…”

    What ‘real Jews’ would THOSE be? — Anybody who harps about “real” Jews is flatly insecure in his/her own Jewishness and is simply trying to establish his Jewish ‘credentials’ with OTHER (similarly insecure) Jews on board here. (Oh, yes, it happens quite a lot on this site, and it’s as authentic as a kosher pork chop, no matter who resorts to playing that game or why.)

    “We…Jews have learned from our history not to look to man as a god. That’s what the Israelites did with Moses and many of them were killed for it.”

    Looked to Moses as a ‘god’??? — Where in the Torah does it say THAT? (Maybe in a long lost chapter whose discovery was announced some morning when I skipped CNN to watch Deppity Dawg?)

    “You christians have continued with persecuting us for the past 2 millenia.”

    You christians”? “persecuting”?

    I’ve never persecuted anybody in my life.

    What’s more, I’ve never been a ‘christian’ — I’ve always said Jesus was cool; never said Jesus was ‘God.’ I was the hazzan’s protégé in my parents’ shul till I went off to the university.

    But you just talk that shit to me about “you Christians” as a means of establishing your OWN ‘Jewish’ credentials. There are more than a few people around here who play that same lame-assed game

    — yet playing it doesn’t make THEM any more ‘Jewish’ than it makes YOU any more ‘Jewish.’

    QTC, all it really does is show how wretched the players all are, that they would feel they have to stoop so low. . . .

  29. dweller Said:

    Yes, he brought them WITH him when he returned from the place of the dead. They had died (before his advent) trusting in his coming. “…he that believes in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live …” Jn 11:25

    So then what did his zombies do carry on their lives as if nothing happened to them? Their families and neighbors just ignored their zombie relatives return and or just accepted them as natural every day occurrence? The Roman Authorities also accepted it as normal and did nothing about it? That period of historic was one of the most prolic literary periods and if something like that had happened there would be some extra biblical writing and notice of such a thing. Nobody had the power to silence everyone nobody. Your attempt at apologetics is implausible, impossible even illogical enough to make it as laughable as the story and you. Pathetic attempt but you ain’t got much going for you in this one. Think I’ll all you Zombie man.

    It ain’t history dweller it’s pagan myth just like the rest of the trashy book you revere.

    Sure — as long as the dominant culture was Jewish. Clearly I was talking about one which was dominated by gentiles , and where Jews constituted a tiny minority. In such a situation, whatever was published appeared only w/ the acquiescence — whether declared or by default — of the broader society.

    You really don’t know much about Jewish Mesorah, the system was perfect and fool proof, even under extreme duress which happened from time to time. Unlike christianity Judaism only bases doctrine on the 613 commandments nothing else in Tanach or oral law. ‘ONLY THE COMMANDMENTS’

    To me they are.

    But then, I never needed ‘proof.’

    You don’t need proof of anything do you? Your tunned in antennae never pick up any negative vibes about the BS and contradictions forgeries and outright lies in your stupid book?? Wonder what that says about the retarded god you worship and to, the intellectually stilted brain dead follower after pagan idols and beliefs???

    Of course not. No tomb could hold him.

    That was the point. . . .

    Even I can think of several even more plausible and logical explanations than the one you subscribe or ascribe to.

    There is not point, only sick dementia. Pathetic Zombie-man!! 😛

  30. @ dweller:

    Hey Dwell…it doesn’t matter. The ‘story’ of Jesus depicts him as Jewish. Nothing christian about him. No christian bible then – only Torah. From the ‘story’ whatever angle you look at him from – he would have been a Torah Jew. From your version – he would have been a Torah Jew that made it to the ‘top’. He was still a man – not a godman. We real Jews have learned from our history not to look to man as a god. That’s what the Israelites did with Moses and many of them were killed for it. You christians have continued with persecuting us for the past 2 millenia.

  31. @ yamit82:

    “Here there is an account of the dead arisen and walking about Jerusalem…

    Matthew 27:51-53 ’51-And behold [at the moment haMoshiach died & his soul left his body], the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth shook and the rocks were split. 52-The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53-and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many’…”

    Yes, he brought them WITH him when he returned from the place of the dead. They had died (before his advent) trusting in his coming. “…he that believes in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live …” Jn 11:25

    5th Article of the ORIGINAL creed, the Apostles’ Creed, which predates the Nicene Creed by 100’s of yrs (& makes no allusion to any purported ‘divinity’ of haNitzri): “He descended into [Sheol]; the third day He rose again from the dead…”

    “… and how interesting that nobody heard of them saw them and then wrote about them.”

    How interesting that you ‘KNOW FOR A FACT’ that “nobody heard of them saw them or wrote about them.” A little bird told you, did he, that THIS time there would be no suppressing of history?

    @ yamit82:

    “Still running away from the simple truth that whatever NT version you read from it came through christian hands…”

    “Again, it’s you who are doing the running — and your assertion is more simplistic than ‘simple,’ and hardly ‘truthful’ when considered head-on.

    Those ‘christian hands’ represented the dominant culture not only when NT passed thru their hands but also when virtually everything else that could be read was published, printed, or written — including TANACH, which ultimately could not have been made available w/o their acquiescence.

    Given that Xtns dominated the culture, how do you know that what YOU read there… is reliable?”

    “The Jews transmitted their culture without Christian acquiescence…”

    “Proof, please.”

    “Well I suppose [you] never heard of the Dead Sea Scrolls Isiah scroll almost 100% intact and there are no deviations from the texts we use today. Meaning: Jewish means and method of transmission is nearly 100% flawless.”

    Sure — as long as the dominant culture was Jewish. Clearly I was talking about one which was dominated by gentiles , and where Jews constituted a tiny minority. In such a situation, whatever was published appeared only w/ the acquiescence — whether declared or by default — of the broader society.

    “Most of the scrolls predate the christian narrative time line and events.”

    Exactly.

    “I can’t as you asked a few times : to prove Abraham ever lived but we do have what is considered his traditional tomb accepted and revered by All nations Muslim Christian and Jewish, we also have Rachel’s Tomb and Joseph’s Tomb. Are they all the real tombs of real historical figures?”

    To me they are.

    But then, I never needed ‘proof.’

    “Tell me you got a tomb for yeshu?”

    Of course not. No tomb could hold him.

    That was the point. . . .

  32. dweller Said:

    “Still running away from the simple truth that whatever NT version you read from it came through christian hands…”

    dweller Said:

    Proof, please.

    Well I suppose or never heard of the Dead Sea Scrolls Isiah scroll almost 100% intact and there are no deviations from the texts we use today. Meaning: Jewish means and method of transmission is nearly 100% flawless. Most of the scrolls predate the christian narrative time line and events.

    I can’t as you asked a few times : to prove Abraham ever lived but we do have what is considered his traditional tomb accepted and revered by All nations Muslim Christian and Jewish, we also have Rachel’s Tomb and Joseph’s Tomb. Are they all the real tombs of real historical figures?

    Tell me you got a tomb for yeshu???? Thought not!!!! 😛 😛

  33. @ bernard ross:
    @ dweller:

    The First Zombies??? So what happened to the Zombies??

    Here there is an account of the dead arisen and walking about Jerusalem and how interesting that nobody heard of them saw them and then wrote about them.

    Tens of thousands of dead Zombies walking about surely had to be noticed and written about at the time!!!!!!

    Love Zombie stories are you one of them dweller or a direct descendent of your Jezzuus Zombies dweller???? If your god can knock up a mortal why not raise a whole tribe of Zombies?

    Matthew 27:51-53
    Context

    51-And behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth shook and the rocks were split. 52-The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53-and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many.

    😛 😛

  34. @ yamit82:

    @ bernard ross:

    “Still running away from the simple truth that whatever NT version you read from it came through christian hands…”

    “Again, it’s you who are doing the running — and your assertion is more simplistic than ‘simple,’ and hardly ‘truthful’ when considered head-on.

    Those ‘christian hands’ represented the dominant culture not only when NT passed thru their hands but also when virtually everything else that could be read was published, printed, or written — including TANACH, which ultimately could not have been made available w/o their acquiescence. Given that Xtns dominated the culture, how do you know that what YOU read there (whenever you DO get ’round to reading Tanach) is reliable?”

    “The Jews transmitted their culture without Christian acquiescence…”

    Proof, please.

    “Those ‘christian hands’ represented the dominant culture not only when NT passed thru their hands but also when virtually everything else that could be read was published, printed, or written — including TANACH, which ultimately could not have been made available w/o their acquiescence. Given that Xtns dominated the culture, how do you know that what you read there… is reliable?”

    “That’s a might emphatic statement…”

    Mmm; a trifle shocking perhaps, seen from that perspective?

    “…so now back it up with verifiable fact not your wild imagination.”

    No imagination involved. Only reason, logic & simple horse sense.

    First, what exactly do you need to have ‘verified’?

    — what part of the remark do you question?

    That the dominant culture was overwhelmingly Xty???

    That Tanachim couldn’t have been produced within an overwhelmingly goyish culture w/o the acquiescence — overt or implicit — of those who dominated it?

  35. @ bernard ross:

    “I had, in THIS instance, however, asked you to prove that a ‘hijacking’ occurred, since you seem to think you can make the claim w/o even reading either the thing ‘hijacked’ OR the ‘newly purposed’ product.”

    “you appear to have serious learning difficulties with regards to the simplest of discussions.”

    Not at all. Unlike yourself, I understand what learning consists of, and that is something more than merely parroting what various (consciously or unconsciously) selected ‘leaders’ & role models declare, or intimate, to be true.

    “the christians used the hebrew bible as the basis for their NT do you deny that fact?…”

    I deny that YOU ‘know’ it to be a fact; which is more to the point here.

    “its self evident, Hebrew bible cam first then the christians used it for their own purposes of yeshu fables.”

    Not self-evident to you. You take it on faith.

    You have no direct knowledge within yourself of its truth (or of its falsity).

    “Which part do you not understand?”

    There’s no part that I do not understand.

    — Which is WHY I can understand that you DON’T know for yourself that what you’ve said is true; you merely assume it’s true. But if it IS true, you don’t know FOR YOURSELF that it’s true. You just regurgitate what you’ve come to accept for (excuse the expression:) gospel.

    You don’t know what’s in NT, because you haven’t READ it.

    What’s more, you don’t know what’s in ‘OT,’ because you haven’t read THAT either.

    Since you don’t know what’s in either one, you can’t compare them — so YOU don’t know, for yourself, that one represents a ‘hijacking’ of the other. (SOMEBODY may know that, but you don’t.)

    You’re like those guys in high school who were always TALKING about how ‘much’ they were getting laid. There were the ones who constantly talked ABOUT it. And the ones who never talked about it. . . .

    @ bernard ross:

    “Why introduce your fetishes here, they are irrelevant to the discussion?”

    “…’Fetishes’? — none here. It is you who insists that sexual releases are ‘necessary’ to live, and who resents hearing the contrary. Perhaps you have a ‘sex fetish’? — a sex addiction? What does your headshrinker say (apart from the acknowledgment that he shares the malady)?”

    “fet·ish noun. a form of sexual desire in which gratification is linked to an abnormal degree to a particular ……part of the body”

    the following are YOUR words, not mine, perhaps you can explain how they do not represent YOUR fetish?

    “YOU could figure it out too, if you didn’t have your brains lodged between your cheeks. And I don’t mean the cheeks that sit on your face — I mean the cheeks you sit on.”

    THOSE words? — Well, that’s easy: They don’t represent any ‘sexual desire’ of mine; rather, a dry, uncluttered observation of what happens to malicious persons.

    They become thick, dense, dull-witted; thus can’t be bothered to do much of their own reasoning — irresponsibly palming it off to others (who’re no more qualified than they for the task), and preferring instead to leave their OWN brains in storage, where the gray matter proceeds to decompose while inevitably acquiring the characteristic properties of the location chosen.

    “did you get these urges”

    No urges, other than to call a spade a spade.