[Update. There will be no communique.]
By Ted Belman
Netanyahu and entourage are headed to Poland for a high level meeting. In advance his office put out a joint communique which said, inter alia, “Unilateral steps by either party are counterproductive to achieving a sustainable lasting peace,”
Netanyahu took issue with this statement because, according to JPOST:
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The implication in that statement is that Netanyahu was taking a stand against construction in West Bank settlements, a position which would complicate his political standing at home.
The truth of the matter is that the objection to the statement arises from a misunderstanding of what the Oslo accords provide. In fact the Accords only proscribe unilateral steps which change the status of the land. Building on it would do no such thing.
Yesterday, JPOST reported that:
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As part of their joint statement on Middle East issues, Poland and Israel will agree that the latter’s legitimacy, the security of its citizens, and the Palestinian right to a state should never be in doubt.
This is shocking. While negotiations may result in them getting a state, they have no right to it. ?This is a huge concession that Netanyahu/Israel is making.?
I could not find the actual communique and no one reported on it.
But Israel National News published a news item today under the title “PM Backs Away from Statement w/Poland Endorsing PA Statehood”. Unfortunately I could find nothing in the item to back this up.
Knowing where the Muslims stand, the legitimacy of one becomes the 1st nail in the coffin of the other. IL CANNOT afford a Pal state.
Am I missing something here? Why does anyone care what the Polish gubmint thinks?
@ yamit82:
Remaining forever married to his… wife. 🙂
It does not matter one little bit, the Palestinians will never ever settle peacefully with Israel. The Palestinians will only accept the destruction of Israel and the genocide of all the Jewish People. Thus it does not matter what Bibi says, what Abbas says, what Kerry says, what Haaretz says, what Yackimovitch says, what Obama says, or what anybody says. The Palestinians have only one plan, the extermination of Israel and the Jewish People.
@ rongrand: thanks. I don’t mind him commenting because it enables Jews to observe.
@ bernard ross:
Bernard you’re a good man.
Yes your right CA is pissing in the wind and has been for a long time.
He is always trolling for an argument.
If you say red, he’ll say no, it’s blue.
Time for all of us to say:
Despedida – Farewell
Adios – Goodbye
No hard feelings
It is the Oslo Accords which violate the settlement rights, and certainly not the opposite.
Only a Pallywoodian partisan may make such false statements. More than false statements, they are merely defaming statements since they are groundless and distorting the truth. Never referring or quoting a specific law, but only personal biased thinking.
De jure is founded on legal rights granted to Jewish People under international law, but never to the arab squatters.
De facto situation may be terminated and remedied at any time by the enforceability and precedence of the Jewish People de jure rights. De facto facts remain only as long as de jure rights have not been claimed and exercised.
CuriousAmerican Said:
Of course I get it, you are not spouting rocket science.
CuriousAmerican Said:
Please carefully re-read this absolutely ridiculous statement. At some point…. when the facts become overwhelming? This makes no sense. When is that point, when do the facts become overwhelming? What does this have to do with contracts and agreements. You don’t get it, it is not rocket science, it is this simple: Israel has evacuated communities and sovereignty long after they have been lived in for years. Therefore they have demonstrated through fact and evidence, rather than the fantasia ridden excesses of the CA mind, that the buildings and communities can be negotiated away long after their being built. Thus, building does not preclude negotiations. DUH??? You are desperately reaching for straws and pissing in the wind, and the blow-back is rather unattractive.
CuriousAmerican Said:
Legal tricks are exactly what runs a court. However, it is not a legal trick to reasonably expect legal definitions to apply when discussing changes in legal status. Please, I implore you, quit posting for today before you become a laughingstock. You appear to be ill today, are you feeling poorly?
Ross, you are not getting it.
At some point, de facto facts become de jure facts. The status has changed de jure when the de facto facts become overwhelming.
On a simple: Possession is 9/10ths of the law, those settlements have changed the status.
A court would toss out the Israel claim that it has NOT unilaterally changed the status of the land, especially since Israel has already declared that any agreement must takes these settlements into account.
You are re-ifying status. A judge would see right through that.
At some point legal tricks like that are no longer tolerated.
That being said: I do not support Oslo.
The Arabs are worse.
But those settlements do violate Oslo; because they will affect the final outcome (Status).
CuriousAmerican Said:
Tell that to all of the settlements and residents from Northern Sinai, Gaza settlements, 4 settlemnets in the Sharon and many homes and structures deemed illegal by Israel because of disputed property rights.
Not only are you stupid, and one who is a historical revisionist and a card carrying member of the I hate Jews society: (AKA christian fundamentalist missionary.) You are a vile pig eater.
There is a subtle christian message here!!! Often alluded to by you without attribution:
You are a true disciple of paul:
What have deceitful christians to say or teach Jews? Would you buy a used car from paul or his followers? 😀
yamit82 Said:
Yamit, like I always like to say, as long the Jews rebel against Heaven, they will be punished severely! Six Israeli leaders getting their comeuppance isn’t a pattern? Then such people are complete idiots! The Jews will know peace when they understand it comes not from princes but only from G-d Himself! That said, I’m awaiting to see as well what Netanyahu’s fate will be if he does not desist!
CuriousAmerican Said:
how do you explain Sinai, gaza, west bank outposts that were built by israelis, even with govt support, and subsequently were given up in sovereignty and control. Please cease this foolish chatter or I must report you to the “fool” police. Please carefully re read your posts before posting in order to avoid errors in absurdity. I think you are having an exceptionally bad day for posting. Perhaps tomorrow will be better. 🙂
Arabs are racists, the real Apartheid
See the real face of our mortal enemy!!!
CuriousAmerican Said:
this is a self evidently ridiculous statement. De Jure arguments in COURT are given superiority over silly opinions advanced as being de facto.
CuriousAmerican Said:
piggy backing one absurd argument after the other. it has already been demonstrated for the world to see, repeatedly, that the state of Israel has reversed sovereignty and control over land built upon by Israelis. Please wake up as it is becoming tedious to point out your obviously inaccurate statements. Have a cup of coffee 🙂
CuriousAmerican Said:
this is an opinion which has no basis in law or common sense. Sovereignty is de jure and de jure there is no change in status. Agreements are de jure and are determined de jure. In agreements one cannot take opinions as opposed to legal definition, ask any judge or even fools.
In common sense, under jewish and israeli law there is also a de facto non change in status in that arabs can hold land under Israeli law. However, under arab control jews will not be allowed to hold land or be citizens. This should be the determining yardstick for considering peace. In my view there can be no peace with any trash that will not allow jews as equals on land they control.
NO matter how many times you repeat, and embolden, the letters your arguments remain weak.
yamit82 Said:
Amen! (although I am not sure that arik is actually asleep or just in hiding)
6 major Israeli leaders were responsible for giving parts of The land of Israel to the sovereignty of non Jews.
Begin after giving Sinai ( Part of historic Biblical Land of Israel) to Egypt shorty after went into deep depression and died as an ignoble babbling idiot. 🙂
Sharon who gave away Gaza (part of historic Land of Israel) and is still a vegetating Vegetable. 🙂
President Katsav put away for life for rape!!! 🙂
PM Olmert forced to Leave PM Job due to multi corruption charges. 🙂
Rabin who signed on to Oslo, brought over Arafat, gave away Half of Y&S and was assassinated by a GOOD JEW!!! 🙂
Waiting to see what BB’s punishment will be. 😉
this seems silly, who cares what communiques about israel are issued in poland. Israel is the place to issue communiques. The idea of rushing off to poland to correct a communique, or issue one, seems absurd and manufactured by the media.
This “misunderstanding” would be best cleared up by embarking on building jewish settlements in YS rather than BS communiques.
First let me say that I am opposed to Oslo.
That aside,saying that the addition of new housing units does not change the status of the land is ridiculous. Thousands of new housing units de facto put the land under Israeli sovereignty. You can’t say they putting up new additions is okay because their addition is not de jure sovereignty.
It is all but Israeli sovereignty, and now the official line is that the eventual map will take these additions into consideration.
Such an argument is legal mumbo-jumbo and would be tossed out of court. There comes a point when de fecto situations are recognized as de jure.
I am NOT opposed to new Israeli housing; but be honest. It is a unilateral action which does indeed change the status of the land.
Prior to the housing additions, the land could have been part of the negotiation. After the housing additions, there is NO WAY that land could be part of the negotiation. A STATUS HAS CHANGED.
You are re-ifying status. That would not hold up in court.
Building units and removing them from the possibility of negotiation is an effectual change of status.
I do not mind if you build on the land … but be honest about it.
OF COURSE IT CHANGES THE STATUS, or Jews would not be wasting their time building on it.
This is silly.
BOTH SIDES take unilateral steps. Oslo has been voided by BOTH SIDES.
The Arabs, by continuing to wage violence, are the most guilty; but neither side is 100% innocent.
To that end, Israel should
1) Pay young, landless Arabs to leave for South America, or whatever country will take them
2) Start to enfranchise the remainder (this can be done slowly)
3) annex Judea and Samaria.
Oslo is a charade. Let it die.
We can argue about what Oslo means; but whatever it means, both sides have broken it, so whatever it meant was pointless.
Viiit Said:
Why not with hold such a concession until AFTER the Arabs accept the Jewish people’s national right to self-determination? Israel is cursed with morons for Prime Minister! Giving the Arabs a gift horse without obtaining anything equivalent in return from them is beyond stupidity.
If Netanyahu were to say that all of Israel is Jewish patrimony, and that the talk about “Palestinian” state within Israel is unacceptable Poland would accept such statement, too.
Not right away, but after Israel showing consistency.
perhaps Israel should recognize gaza as palestine and deport the west bank arabs as undesirable aliens belonging to a nation with which Israel is at war.
XLucid Said:
I completely agree with your legal perspective.
It is almost ridiculously amusing that everyone is arguing about the pal state when it already exists. Arguments in Poland over the right to have a pal state is as ludicrous now as arguments abroad about Israels right to exist. All the jews, all the world, have not noticed that the pal state has existed in gaza, fulfilling all legal criteria for a state, for years now. It has been blockaded and gone to war twice as a belligerent state. that which exists but cannot be uttered???????
Can anyone explain this strange replay of the emperors new clothes? Has anyone else, especially in Israel, remarked on this obvious fact?
I wonder what would be the outcome of deeming gaza to be THE (2nd) Pal state????? Everyone seems to have a macabre vested interest in maintaining this glaring fantasy.
the mind boggles!!!!
First of all, Oslo Accords is an illegal agreement which cannot be enforceable because the purpose and the essence of the agreement were to achieve an illegal end in violation of international law.
As a matter of fact, Oslo Accords is a contract between two parties (i) Israeli government, and (ii) PLO, a terror organization, the purpose of which was to deprive a third party (the Jewish people worldwide) from their inalienable rights under international law.
The rights granted to the Jewish People worldwide , ie the twelve tribes and not to Israelis citizens, under international law (San Remo resolution and the Mandate) are permanent and cannot be nullified. The Jewish People worldwide were granted the right to settle everywhere from Dan to Beersheba, and no body had or has the right to dismantle and dilapidate their land and to prevent them from exercising their rights, including the Israeli government.
By its terms, the Oslo Accords is an illegal and void contract, and its conditions and provisos constitute more a collusion without any binding effect or liability, than a valid contract to rely upon or to enforce.
As a result, as an illegal agreement, the Oslo Accords does not need neither justification nor explanations.
It is not a huge concession, the fact is that israel has already created a pal state in gaza with sovereignty and agreed defacto borders. The real problem is that Israel continues to obscure the issues. If Israel came out and said that they will recognize a pal state in gaza and annex YS and give temp residence to arabs in YS but encourage or transfer them to gaza: it would be ok. The problem is that everyone assumes YS must be part of the 2nd pal state and Israel does nothing to dissuade that notion. Israels agreement to the 2nd pal statement has already been fulfilled in gaza the disagreement is over whether that state is bigger, includes YS and has a land connection. recognizing gaza does not imply that they cannot be blockaded for their belligerence.
I find it ludicrous that no one recognizes the elephant in the room that Gaza fulfills the requirements of a state whereas the PA does not. The only reason gaza has not declared itself as an independent state of palestine is that it might jeopardize their claim to the west bank.
The Prime Minister was forced to disavow the statement… Palestinian Arab statehood should not be an automatic entitlement or even a right – if the Arabs are guaranteed a state anyway, what is the point of even holding negotiations with them? A right is not dependent on a negotiated process – its there. The Prime Minister’s explanation he did not review the communique carefully doesn’t hold water – if it was really written by leftist low level National Security staffers, the man is a complete idiot and not fit to be Prime Minister of Israel. A more probable explanation is this is what he really wants but its not politic to advance it through a communique with a foreign state – at least not at such a sensitive stage.
Either way, Netanyahu does not come out looking good from a statement he had to later repudiate both at home and abroad.
NAUSEATING – After 2000 years of longing to return to their land, Israelis are now allowing their government to make statements that are not only offensive to all Jews, but extremely dangerous for the survival of Israel. ~~~ While Ted was publishing this article, I was also posting a talkback on this subject below Caroline’s speech. Because it is truly revolting to see the government of Israel promoting the gifting of Judea and Samaria to those who occupied the land for many centuries, those who slaughtered hundreds of thousands of Jews in their path of conquest in their path of conquest, those who enslaved the rest as dhimmis in occupied lands. ~~~ The same Muslims who worked hand in hand with Hitler in designing methods for the Final Solution (through the Mufti of Jerusalem), and who have continued to terrorize and murder Jews to this day. Those are the ones the government of Israel says have the right to Judea and Samaria. ~~~ And it’s not only saying that they have the right that is offensive, but actually planning to surrender it to them – no matter under what excuse or fig leaf it is done.