By Ted Belman
When I posted on the controversy surround the conversion bill yesterday, it was not clear to me what Bayit Yehudi was upset about.
JPOST made it clear today.
- Deputy Religious Services Minister Eli Ben-Dahan of Bayit Yehudi is opposed to the clauses in the bill which would end the Chief Rabbinate’s centralized control over the conversion process, which is one of the central goals of Stern’s bill.
Bayit Yehudi also opposes language used to in the bill to preserve the current status of Reform and Conservative conversions.
I would be happy to loosen the control of the Chief Rabbinate. It upset me to learn that that girl who was kicked out of conversion classes because she wanted to be an actress. This is untenable.
The Right of Return is granted to many people who aren’t halachicly Jewish. That works for me.
Haaretz reports that an aspiring actress, Alin Levy, cannot convert to Judaism because the profession of acting is “immodest”.
The vast majority of Israeli Jews find nothing wrong with being an actress. Levy should be allowed to convert to Judaism and to be like most Israeli Jews.
Similarly I believe that it is important to find an easy way for people who choose to come here under the law of return, to convert to Judaism. What is important is not whether the conversion standards are followed to the letter but that their children be recognized as Jews.
honeybee Said:
And a chicken in every pot and a car in every garage….
🙂
@ Bear Klein:
@ the phoenix:
@ ArnoldHarris:
@ Yidvocate:
Every woman, her own Rabbi
@ Yidvocate:
Y.O.G.I……B.E.A.R!!!
@ Bear Klein:
M. I. C. K. E. Y……M.O.U.S.E!
@ Yidvocate:
Certainly with localized friendly Rabbi’s Ruth could find someone to convert her.
This way the Rabbi’s who are off the wall would be avoided. The beauty of decentralization in lieu of coercive monopoly of power in a centralized system.
@ the phoenix:
I know this like you profess to know the converse as your post clearly suggests. I would expect no less from the grandmother of Dovid Hamelech.
Besides my neshama saw hers standing at Mt. Sinai ;>)
Shabbat Shalom…………..
@ Yidvocate:
And you KNOW this, how??
@ Bear Klein:
I do not spend much time with Jewish religion other than in regard to Jewish nationalism. But I never have accepted any substitute for authentic Judaism.
A united Jewish state requires a united Jewish nation and that, in turn, requires a united Jewish religion.
Judaism to me means nothing more or less than the Tora, Tanakh and Talmud and the Jewish scholarly authorities that have served our nation since Judaism itself evolved among us some three and one-half millenia ago in Eretz-Yisrael. All else have amounted to pretentious efforts to water down our ancient attachment to the principles and commandments of haShem, to be replaced by something resembling endlessly watered-down soup at a cheap restaurant.
Arnold Harris
Mount Horeb WI
@ Bear Klein:
Excellent post, bear!
Hopefully it will be read also by some chest thumpers holier than thou commenters.
I read the above which related to the discussion and I found in the tone of Ted’s original comment about the actress who had been denied conversion.
http://www.thejewishweek.com/editorial_opinion/gary_rosenblatt/ruths_conversion_would_be_rejected_today
@ Shy Guy:
Apology!!!! You have a right nice Sabbath.
@ Bear Klein:
I make my own Challah. I also make a onion stuffed Challah which I use for pletzels.
@ honeybee:
Hi Ms. Bee
I am looking forward to my Shabbat Challah.
Do you have any place you can buy a good Challah?
My ex-wife and mother-in law made the best Challahs from scratch.
Shabbat Shalom!
honeybee Said:
I was quoting Dove’s text.
Ditto.
dove Said:
The Mrs. just lit candles here in Jerusalem. Shabbat Shalom.
yamit82 Said:
Do I need some one to interperate this passage for me. Do I need some one who will humiliate and belittle me. I ain’t that 12 yr. old girl any more.
@ Shy Guy:
May I just state that your entire article is load of —–! The more I read Darlin, the worst it became. Thank goodness I am not my name sake, she would have run you over with her chariot.
Bear Klein Said:
Thank you Mr. Bear. Yawl have a right fine Sabbath!!
Shy Guy Said:
What you are saying is that women are irresponsible fliberty jibes unable to mentally to carry out two task at one time. My Father said educating women was primary because when women are educated, you also educated the next generation.
@ Bear Klein:
You misunderstand me Bear. My point was that without some recognized central authority, conversion could well turn into a Mickey Mouse Club by “local” authorities setting their own standards. That’s all. It’s too important of a matter to leave it to anyone setting their own standards. Conversion “shopping” would result looking for easiest route and we’ll end up with untold tragedies – mumzorim, “unknown” inter-marriages and eventually the demise of the Jewish people!
Gut Shabbos….
@ Yidvocate:
So Rabbis you do not know and Jews you do not know belong to the
Do not you not know how how harmful and hateful a statement that is?
You are entitled to your opinion.
You have a very common human affliction. You prefer to try find difference between people in lieu of finding commonality. This is what keeps people separated or causes separation. In this case different Jews.
In any case if I do not connect with you later Shabat Shalom.
@ yamit82:
For Rabbinic Judaism, the laws governing conversion (gerut) are based on codes of law and texts, including discussions in the Talmud, through the Shulkhan Arukh and subsequent interpretations. (Many of the guidelines of accepting converts are based on the Book of Ruth and the manner whereby Ruth was brought into the fold through her mother-in-law, Naomi). These rules are held as authoritative by Orthodox Judaism and Conservative Judaism. Jewish law is generally interpreted as discouraging proselytizing, and religious gerut is also discouraged. Rabbis often rejected potential converts three times, and if they remained adamant in their desire to convert, they would then allow them to begin the process. This practice has been justified on several grounds, including:
The laws Jews require of themselves are more stringent than they consider to be required of other nations; a person who would be considered derelict of religious duties under Jewish law could easily be, without change in action, an exceedingly righteous gentile.
Jews have suffered regular and often severe persecution throughout the ages; a proselyte is exposing himself to potentially mortal danger.
In the Book of Ruth, Naomi tried to get Ruth to go back to her own people three times before Ruth became a part of the Hebrew people.
Call it minhag Yisroel if you prefer. It is the established practice.
@ Shy Guy:
Shabbat Shalom! only a cpl of hrs to go!
dove Said:
Mea culpa. 🙁
Nashim Dabrani’ot Hen.
@ Shy Guy:
yes, that is a much more difficult task for man isn’t it? 🙂
pardon me, my higher level just kicked in.
The role of women in traditional Judaism has been grossly misrepresented and misunderstood. The position of women is not nearly as lowly as many modern people think; in fact, the position of women in halakhah (Jewish Law) that dates back to the biblical period is in many ways better than the position of women under American civil law as recently as a century ago. Many of the important feminist leaders of the 20th century (Gloria Steinem, for example, and Betty Friedan) are Jewish women, and some commentators have suggested that this is no coincidence: the respect accorded to women in Jewish tradition was a part of their ethnic culture.
In traditional Judaism, women are for the most part seen as separate but equal. Women’s obligations and responsibilities are different from men’s, but no less important (in fact, in some ways, women’s responsibilities are considered more important, as we shall see).
The equality of men and women begins at the highest possible level: G-d. In Judaism, unlike traditional Christianity, G-d has never been viewed as exclusively male or masculine. Judaism has always maintained that G-d has both masculine and feminine qualities. As one Chasidic rabbi explained it to me, G-d has no body, no genitalia, therefore the very idea that G-d is male or female is patently absurd. We refer to G-d using masculine terms simply for convenience’s sake, because Hebrew has no neutral gender; G-d is no more male than a table is.
Both man and woman were created in the image of G-d. According to most Jewish scholars, “man” was created in Gen. 1:27 with dual gender, and was later separated into male and female.
According to traditional Judaism, women are endowed with a greater degree of “binah” (intuition, understanding, intelligence) than men. The rabbis inferred this from the fact that woman was “built” (Gen. 2:22) rather than “formed” (Gen. 2:7), and the Hebrew root of “build” has the same consonants as the word “binah.” It has been said that the matriarchs (Sarah, Rebecca, Rachel and Leah) were superior to the patriarchs (Abraham, Isaac and Jacob) in prophecy. Women did not participate in the idolatry regarding the Golden Calf. See Rosh Chodesh below. Some traditional sources suggest that women are closer to G-d’s ideal than men.
Women have held positions of respect in Judaism since biblical times. Miriam is considered one of the liberators the Children of Israel, along with her brothers Moses and Aaron. One of the Judges (Deborah) was a woman. Seven of the 55 prophets of the Bible were women (they are included in the list of biblical prophets).
The Ten Commandments require respect for both mother and father. Note that the father comes first in Ex. 20:12, but the mother comes first in Lev. 19:3, and many traditional sources point out that this reversal is intended to show that both parents are equally entitled to honor and reverence.
There were many learned women of note. The Talmud and later rabbinical writings speak of the wisdom of Berurya, the wife of Rabbi Meir. In several instances, her opinions on halakhah (Jewish Law) were accepted over those of her male contemporaries. In the ketubah (marriage contract) of Rabbi Akiba’s son, the wife is obligated to teach the husband Torah! Many rabbis over the centuries have been known to consult their wives on matters of Jewish law relating to the woman’s role, such as laws of kashrut and women’s cycles. The wife of a rabbi is referred to as a rebbetzin, practically a title of her own, which should give some idea of her significance in Jewish life.
There can be no doubt, however, that the Talmud also has many negative things to say about women. Various rabbis at various times describe women as lazy, jealous, vain and gluttonous, prone to gossip and particularly prone to the occult and witchcraft. Men are repeatedly advised against associating with women, although this is usually because of man’s lust rather than because of any shortcoming in women. It is worth noting that the Talmud also has negative things to say about men, frequently describing men as particularly prone to lust and forbidden sexual desires.
Women are discouraged from pursuing higher education or religious pursuits, but this seems to be primarily because women who engage in such pursuits might neglect their primary duties as wives and mothers. The rabbis are not concerned that women are not spiritual enough; rather, they are concerned that women might become too spiritually devoted.
The rights of women in traditional Judaism are much greater than they were in the rest of Western civilization until the 20th century. Women had the right to buy, sell, and own property, and make their own contracts, rights which women in Western countries (including America) did not have until about 100 years ago. In fact, Proverbs 31:10-31, which is traditionally read at Jewish weddings, speaks repeatedly of business acumen as a trait to be prized in women (v. 11, 13, 16, and 18 especially).
Women have the right to be consulted with regard to their marriage. Marital sex is regarded as the woman’s right, and not the man’s. Men do not have the right to beat or mistreat their wives, a right that was recognized by law in many Western countries until a few hundred years ago. In cases of rape, a woman is generally presumed not to have consented to the intercourse, even if she enjoyed it, even if she consented after the sexual act began and declined a rescue! This is in sharp contrast to American society, where even today rape victims often have to overcome public suspicion that they “asked for it” or “wanted it.” Traditional Judaism recognizes that forced sexual relations within the context of marriage are rape and are not permitted; in many states in America today, rape within marriage is still not a crime.
There is no question that in traditional Judaism, the primary role of a woman is as wife and mother, keeper of the household. However, Judaism has great respect for the importance of that role and the spiritual influence that the woman has over her family. The Talmud says that when a pious man marries a wicked woman, the man becomes wicked, but when a wicked man marries a pious woman, the man becomes pious. The child of a Jewish woman and a gentile man is Jewish because of the mother’s spiritual influence; the child of a Jewish man and a gentile woman is not. See Who Is a Jew? Women are exempted from all positive mitzvot (“thou shalts” as opposed to “thou shalt nots”) that are time-related (that is, mitzvot that must be performed at a specific time of the day or year), because the woman’s duties as wife and mother are so important that they cannot be postponed to fulfill a mitzvah. After all, a woman cannot be expected to just drop a crying baby when the time comes to perform a mitzvah. She cannot leave dinner unattended on the stove while she davens ma’ariv (evening prayer services).
It is this exemption from certain mitzvot that has led to the greatest misunderstanding of the role of women in Judaism. First, many people make the mistake of thinking that this exemption is a prohibition. On the contrary, although women are not required to perform time-based positive mitzvot, they are generally permitted to observe such mitzvot if they choose (though some are frustrated with women who insist on performing visible, prestigious optional mitzvot while they ignore mundane mandatory ones). Second, because this exemption diminishes the role of women in the synagogue, many people perceive that women have no role in Jewish religious life. This misconception derives from the mistaken assumption that Jewish religious life revolves around the synagogue. It does not; it revolves around the home, where the woman’s role is every bit as important as the man’s.
dove Said:
The first explanation is the main one and that is what is meant by modesty. Even if everyone is dressed modestly, ones thoughts have to be kept modest as well. The Hebrew word for modesty, Tzniyut, applies both externally and internally, physically as well as spiritually.
Loopy.
🙂
Simply put, the Israeli Chief Rabbinate is destroying the Jewish Faith in Eretz Yisrael and the best solution would be to totally eliminate this governmental department. It is not just the conversion process which the Rabbinate has corrupted, but the entire process of “gittin” with Jewish women being abused and punished and impoverished when they want to get a “get!” The Rabbinate is a heartless monster and most Israelis, including the haredim, modern Orthodox, and of course the secular Israels just ignore it, too bad the Rabbinate still has the power to destroy Judaism.
@ Shy Guy:
Here is a better explanation as to why women and men sit separately at shul
honeybee Said:
How??? What does the Almighty say?…
@ Bear Klein:
It takes all kinds. By the time I have that kind of knowledge I will have surpassed George Burns and be 101 yrs old. 🙂
yamit82 Said:
Uncompromising bureaucratic rules again. And from you,Sweetie
Yidvocate Said:
They shouldn’t.
Their Rabbis should have led the way back to the Land of Israel.
That was their overriding mandate and religious obligation. They should have set the example like the Ramban, who could be described as one of history’s first Zionists, because he declared that it is a mitzvah to take possession of Israel and to live in it (relying on Num. 33:53). He said, “So long as Israel occupies [the Holy Land], the earth is regarded as subject to Him.” Ramban fulfilled this commandment, moving to the Holy Land during the Crusades after he was expelled from Spain for his polemics. He found devastation in the Holy Land, “but even in this destruction,” he said, “it is a blessed land.” He died there in 1270 C.E.
Rabbi Nachman of Bratslav left this world 203 years ago. His life is a reproach to all too many modern rabbis.
For Rabbi Nachman, the return to Zion was integral to Judaism, worth suffering for. Rabbi Nachman sold all his belongings and sent his daughter to work so he could undertake aliyah. The effort wasn’t in vain: upon reaching Eretz Israel, the rabbi changed his views so much that he prohibited references to his earlier opinions. Rootless Jews who have never been to Israel cannot understand that change.
Unlike the politically correct rabbinical establishment, Rabbi Nachman was uncompromising about his teachings and goals. That cost him official recognition.
Rabbi Nachman did one unprecedented thing: he refused to bless marrying couples, saying that in a hundred years, a generation would appear which had better not be born. A generation of Ukrainian and Polish Jews born a century later was annihilated in the Holocaust.
Rabbi Nachman made clear that he was horrified by the fate of that generation: he asked to be buried in Uman, among the victims of the Ukrainian carnage that took the lives of 30,000 Jews 43 years before he died. Modern rabbinical establishments, particularly in the Ukraine, are eager to absolve and befriend murderers. They might learn from Rabbi Nachman.
To quote the Rambam “I forgive everyone who speaks ill of me through stupidity,”.
yamit82 Said:
Is he from Texas?
yamit82 Said:
You first!!!Darlin
:
yamit82 Said:
TX says any thing more then a mouthful is a waste!!!
yamit82 Said:
??????????????????????????
honeybee Said:
Are you still a virgin?
honeybee Said:
Deal… but you go first.
Know that: I have been compared favorably to John Holmes.
Of course.
Anything north of Twiggy.
yamit82 Said:
Are whips, chains and hand cuffs involved?????
yamit82 Said:
q
How round is adequate? TX says bones are for dogs.
honeybee Said:
Requires extensive investigation.
honeybee Said:
How round????
yamit82 Said:
If you show yours, I’ll show you mine.
Yidvocate Said:
What Halacha is that?
Show me the Halacha?
” If you prick me. will I not Bleed”?
@ Shy Guy:
@ Bear Klein:
@ the phoenix:
@ Yidvocate:
@ yamit82:
Religion only purpose is to exclude and to give the small minded work. Can one love the almighty with out all the bureaucratic nonsense??????????????
Shy Guy Said:
What about a Texas drawl.
Bear Klein Said:
I am waiting. On that Chinese menu of Judaism I am Sweet and Sour Chicken and a nice round dumpling.
@ the phoenix:
There is entire tractate in the Talmud by that very name, although not the exclusive treatment of the subject.
So the Jews of England shouldn’t have any rabbis because they don’t live in Israel?
You are fortunate to be born a Jew (I assume you were)and therefore can bear that appellation while remaining blissfully ignorant of what that really means and what G-d demands of a Jew.
Not so those who want to join the club. It’s rather like the millionaire who inherits his millions as apposed to the one who had to earn those dollars with sweat and toil.
Yes those select mortals could to some degree, if we had a Sanhedrin but we don’t and won’t till Mashiach comes and the Temple is rebuilt.
@ Yidvocate:
WHERE was the Sanhedrin mentioned in the Torah?
I kept bringing as an example the honorary illustrious sir lord rabbi Jonathan sacks….
The point I made, and I repeat now, is if HE who is supposed to be the sumum of today’s Judaism is. not. exactly. 100% halachic (does not live in Israel) then what hope is there for a simple Jew that IS NOT a luminary Torah scholar to ‘qualify’ as a Jew, when even the most illustrious of them all does not fit the bill…. Not to mention a long list of all kind of ‘averot’ committed by the very ones to whom we should turn for guidance and example ?
Now I am being told that “hey! SOME mortals (chachamim) can actually add/ delete/ modify the TORAH. And THAT is ok.
It should be taken without questioning that their word is to be taken as such.
Please forgive me for asking you (with the flexor surface of the palm turned upward) why, who are they?
@ Bear Klein:
We can agree to disagree on the linearity of Torah true Judaism from Sinai. I take it as a tautology as it’s existence today and throughout the ages proves the adage.
I do agree that the Israeli Rabbinate could be a bit more friendly as they have developed a reputation, mostly deserved. But you have to remember that unlike other religions, Judaism is not looking for converts and in fact in accordance with Halacha, the Rabbi is supposed to reject the would be convert no less than 3 times before entertaining accepting his as a potential convert. Moreover some local Rabbinical authorities in the States in elsewhere don’t all adequately adhere to Halacha and therefore their “converts” are rightly suspect by the authority in Israel. Some central, universally accepted authority is therefore preferable to local Mickey Mouse Clubs.
@ Shy Guy:
Are you still going to pounce on me and call me loopy?
@ Yidvocate:
That’s telling him!!!!!!!
@ the phoenix:
It’s not for whatever reason. There are halachic principles at play and consistently applied. The Sanhedrin was empowered by the Torah to determine halacha and if you study Jewish history you would know this and know who the Chachamim where. It was even empowered to suspend halacha under certain halachic principles. A micro-example of this takes place in today’s Torah portion of parasha Shimini where Mose admonishes Aaron for not eating a certain Korban. Aaron gives Mose a compelling reason and Mose concedes.That’s how halacha evolves. It’s not a free for all. There has to acceptance by the majority of Torah sages who hold the tradition from Sinai. The Torah states that halacha is made on earth and not in heaven and Jews are empowered in this regard but bound by principles laid down by G-d.