By Ted Belman
When I posted on the controversy surround the conversion bill yesterday, it was not clear to me what Bayit Yehudi was upset about.
JPOST made it clear today.
- Deputy Religious Services Minister Eli Ben-Dahan of Bayit Yehudi is opposed to the clauses in the bill which would end the Chief Rabbinate’s centralized control over the conversion process, which is one of the central goals of Stern’s bill.
Bayit Yehudi also opposes language used to in the bill to preserve the current status of Reform and Conservative conversions.
I would be happy to loosen the control of the Chief Rabbinate. It upset me to learn that that girl who was kicked out of conversion classes because she wanted to be an actress. This is untenable.
The Right of Return is granted to many people who aren’t halachicly Jewish. That works for me.
Haaretz reports that an aspiring actress, Alin Levy, cannot convert to Judaism because the profession of acting is “immodest”.
The vast majority of Israeli Jews find nothing wrong with being an actress. Levy should be allowed to convert to Judaism and to be like most Israeli Jews.
Similarly I believe that it is important to find an easy way for people who choose to come here under the law of return, to convert to Judaism. What is important is not whether the conversion standards are followed to the letter but that their children be recognized as Jews.
If I might make some observations …
I agree with Shy Guy that the risk of loosening standards of conversion is precisely those who assume Jewish identity for purposes of subverting the Jewish community. There are Christians who already believe they are Jewish according to Replacement Theology. Those Christians of genuine Jewish descent who claim conversion may be maneuvering for a socially strategic position to make Replacement Theology a legitimate branch of Judaism.
It’s odd, but I can’t think of similar conspiracies out of the Muslim community, except for Palestinian Nationalism which is a claim on Israel, not Jewish personhood.
The basic work of Rabbis should be sustaining Jewish belief among those who are, without any doubt, already Jews. There is nothing about Jewish belief to advance the cause of conversion and this is a happy arrangement for everyone, Jews and non-Jews alike. Those hoping to regain their Jewish identities should have a first priority for the work of Rabbis. For the rest, I don’t think it should be possible to convert so that one assumes a Jewish identity. I do think some sort of recognition should be made for those who convert to Jewish belief, which is something else altogether. If you were not born Jewish and wish to assume Jewish belief, then you must acknowledge that you are NOT Jewish, because who is a Jew is so fundamental to Jewish belief.
I myself was posed as being available for conversion as a young boy. My stepfather’s mother was Jewish and there was this constant consideration of raising me Jewish even though my stepfather never exhibited any habits or practices to suggest he was Jewish. His father was Irish Catholic and never married his mother. I am convinced the whole thing was a conspiracy to humiliate my natural father who very much not Jewish. My stepfather had me circumcised when I was two years old and that was the last Jewish thing I ever saw out of him. As I grew older, I seriously considered converting, but saw no opportunity to make it work. You are raised Jewish, conversion is a weak prospect in Judaism. It is not a cult or submission to some religious authority.
@ Yidvocate:
Their is no Kleinism. Their is Judaism.
Currently called Orthodoxy is not a linear practice of the religion since Sinai.
If you disagree that is okay, because I am not trying to challenge your view of the religion. Just the rigid imposition of it on the people who live in Israel and immigrate to Israel. Religion should not be coercive.
I believe that is what Ted what saying when he said conversions should be more lenient (but he can write for himself). I say conversions should be real but not hostile, arbitrary and mean spirited. That is why a choice of local rabbis would be a great improvement in my humble opinion as a Jew (not a Klein). I hear the conversions in the military are a far superior experience in general.
@ Bear Klein:
Read “the volunteer (a canadian secret life in the Mossad)”. by Michael Ross and Jonathan Kay
🙂
@ Shy Guy:
@ Shy Guy:
1.
No link, shy… Try again?
2.
But here you are window dressing my question….
“Chachamim”…
Fine.
WHO are they and WHO appoints them and WHERE is this SELF SERVING declaration written in the TORAH?
Shy, I am not arguing for argument’s sake.
I am only pointing out that when FOR WHATEVER REASON it becomes OBVIOUS that something should be changed/modified/abrogated it was done!!!!
You just said so yourself!!!
If there is common sense and goodwill (BELIEVE ME, I am not the kumbaya, let’s hug some trees kind of a guy) there could be SO MUCH MORE achieved….
@ Bear Klein:
Halacha isn’t whatever “you” think it is. It is G-d given and Divinely derived in an unbroken tradition from Sinai.
There is that “you” again. That’s not Judaism that’s Kleinism. Ever since Sinai starting with Korach there have been those “yous”. Think Esins and Karites and countless others. They have all disappeared as will reform, conservative, reconstructionist, etc. Only Torah true Judaism (currently called – by reform and conservatives, etc. “orthodox Judaism”) has survived and will continue to survive. Truth endures, shecker withers and fades away.
@ dove:
The converts I met (granted only a few ) seemed to have encyclopedia knowledge of Judaism and a love for Israel. One was a good friend who earlier had met a kibutnicket (in Israel) and then married her in the USA. He there did a conversion and they moved back to Israel.
I met him in Israel while he was in the IDF and had no clue he was converted.
I met a Dutch girl another time who was a kibbutz volunteer. She married one the kibbutz-nicks and converted in Israel.
Both these people I site as examples loved Israel and where very very knowledgeable about Judaism. The lived a Jewish life in Israel but some today would have revoked their conversions, if they could. Why because maybe they did not keep all 613 mitzvot.
the phoenix Said:
Yesh Koach Beyad Chachamim La’akor Davar ShebaTorah B’Shev V’al Ta’aseh.
Self-study
Link fixed.
@ Shy Guy:
So now, men (you know, the mortal type) have decreed that God’s word is no longer valid???
I.e. they ‘gave in’ on this aspect, but dug their heels on the rest?
Do you not see a weak argument here?
the phoenix Said:
I haven’t the foggiest idea what you’re blathering about. But it may see light on Broadway someday.
The Sanhedrin long ago ceased carrying out capital punishment because capital transgressions became so common that it no longer served the purpose of people learning from it.
But what if we were living in David Hamelech’s time? Then what?
Are those 2 selections on the Chinese menu you were talking about?
dove Said:
I grew up in a home where Gerei tzedek (true converts) were often at our table almsot every Shabbat through their conversion period.
And what you say about taking a lifetime goes for Jews from birth just the same. They just have a head-start. Nothing more.
@ Shy Guy:
I take your answer to dove to be equally applicable to my post #13
Is there not something WRONG with this picture???
And so it came to be, that as the last Jew on earth was standing over the body of the Jew he has just recently slain, he is victoriously raising his blood dripping sword upwards and proclaims that he has done it to preserve and protect Judaism ….
And btw, shy guy, why isn’t there a good halachic stoning going on (there sure is a loooooong list of items that must be punishable thus!!! As yamit told me on a few other occasions “Judaism is not a Chinese menu”
Shoyn.
Nu??!!!
@ Shy Guy:
This is very true. A Jew is either a Jew by birth or by choice. The majority of the ‘by choice’ Jews I don’t think are authentic – thats just my opinion. Most only pick and choose what part of Jewish they will keep and the rest they ignore.
However, for those who are going thru a genuine conversion – it takes time. Don’t expect them to be fully mature knowledgeable Jews. That takes a lifetime.
dove Said:
But that’s the point! That is not Judaism! However, a Jew can still behave in a non-Jewish manner and still be Jewish, while a non-Jew can behave in a Jewish manner and will nevertheless be non-Jewish.
Bear Klein Said:
Correct but hence against Hashem Himself and Moshe Rabbeinu, Hashem’s messenger.
@ Shy Guy
“Their” religion. See what you did there.
@ Shy Guy:
Educate me if I am wrong but I believe that was against the Cohanim? I am Cohen so I am not sure you are correct on this.
Have a good day, got to run.
honeybee Said:
More like mud in my eye.
dove Said:
“Their” religion. See what you did there. 😉
There are limits and boundaries.
“Whoso is wise, let him understand these things, whoso is prudent, let him know them. For the ways of the LORD are right, and the just do walk in them; but transgressors do stumble therein.” – Hoshea 14:10
@ Shy Guy:
You owe me a shekel. Please pay it to Honeybee c/o Texas so I can get out of debt.
Bear Klein Said:
The label “Orthodox Judaism” was coined by Germany’s reform Jews 200 years ago.
Of course I disagree with that. Just as much as I disagree with Korach’s rebellion or with Pessel Micha. Of course, you should agree 100% with Korach, and Hashem’s opinion be darned.
I hold a common esteem for most Jews, whether they are Torah observant or not. I hold an esteem for all humans who are good, whether they be Jew or gentile. But I have zero esteem for false converts to Judaism. And that about sums it up.
@ honeybee:
Did not bet with you but if you’d like you have my I.O.U for one shekel.
Shy Guy Said:
You mean Mrs. Shy Guy is giving you the ” evil eye “.
Bear Klein Said:
the phoenix Said:
Poor Baby, Spring has Sprang here.
Bear Klein Said
I would venture a shekel
I agree with you completely. Please send shekel to Honeybee c/o Texas. Every body knows me!
@ Shy Guy:
Stop! Your both right! Shy – thumping people with how to practise their religion can actually have an adverse affect and can cause them to stumble. Bear – there is concern when I walk into a shul and see a xmas tree in a conservative shul – trying to be cool and inclusive of ‘gentiles exploring’ that is going too far. When I receive an email blast from a reform shul that has easter plastered all over it I think to myself ‘am I ever going to be able to escape the church?’
As you know there are different types of orthodox. You will find hypocrites in every shul just as you will with those who don’t attend shul.
@ Shy Guy:
If you like we can agree to disagree.
I do not like labels. They are divisive and not healthy. But if I had one it would be a
Not any other label Orthodox, Reform, etc. I believe all are equal and I wish the tribal approach to Judaism would disappear.
I would venture a shekel you would also disagree with me on this.
@ Bear Klein:
There is nothing particularly Jewish about the reform and conservative movements except for outer trappings – just like Jews for Jesus and messianic christians. Your epidermis is showing.
@ Shy Guy:
I know the Chabad approach to conversion and they should do as they believe. I am not telling anyone not to believe what they believe. I am saying the reform or conservative approach is just as valid. All Jews in Israel should have the right to practice (including marriage) any Jewish form just like in the USA or Canada.
A Jew for Jesus might have been a Jew but if he is practicing Christianity he is currently not a Jew. However if he decides to leave Christianity he will be considered a Jew again without a conversion.
Bear Klein Said:
But Chabadniks will not put Tefilin on you if you’re not Jewish. Ask them what it takes to qualify to be converted by a Chabad Bet Din.
Bear Klein Said:
I answered your question. Read it again. You obviously did not catch.
Nevertheless, lets move on with the rest of your response.
In the eyes of man, the former appears better. In the eyes of G-d, neither you nor I may never know.
Yet the Torah says that intentionally violating Shabbat incurs the death penalty; while intentionally being a rotten human being is a spiritual malady that someone might get away with with no practical punishment during the person’s lifetime here on earth.
Having pointed that out, I still cannot really say who is a better “Jew”, as “Jews” are obligated on ALL of the mitzvot you mentioned. So that if we now apply your point to a potential convert, the answer is that knowledge in advance that the potential convert conscientiously rejects any part of the Torah should disqualify the person for conversion. That would include a convert who will keep every single detail of the laws of Shabbat but refuses in principle to ever give charity and announces in advance that he/she will be condescending to Jews who are not as pious in their keeping Shabbat or their ways of modesty.
Comprende?
Based on what? Your opinion? Your whim? Your groupthink? If they were born to Jewish mothers, who are YOU to disqualify them from bring new converts to Judaism? In fact, some of these Jewish jesus believers are downright lovely charitable people and keep 100% kosher plus put on Tefilin and Tzitzit and afix Mezuzot on their doors. Who the hell are you to disqualify them, snob? Smell the irony.
@ Shy Guy:
We are in agreement.
My repeated question is WHO is THE Suma cum laude Jew ?
A simple amkha that is sincere and means well and is looking up to THE rabbi for guidance… Only to find out that… “Tashhil et zeh b’ofen eleganti u’mibli she’argheesh. (Translation: it is from a comic skit where a rabbi is asking a commoner to put the money in his pocket, but in an elegant fashion that could be construed as , he was not even aware that he, the rabbi received a bribe….)
Since you have work to attend to and we just got some more snow here…. Let’s agree that we are not necessarily in disagreement but rather in a circular argument.
🙁
@ the phoenix:
That is too bad.
I had the opposite experience when I stopped in Tel Aviv on my way to the Kibbutz Ulpan a couple little congregations that needed minyans were trying to pull me in.
So as with all groups some are good guys and some are less than that.
I love the current Chabad approach making religion friendly and available but not coercive. This is the formula why they are very successful. Other Jewish groups could learn from their approach.
the phoenix Said:
If the point is well taken, then apply it honestly.
I am not saying that the conversion situation in Israel is good. IT IS AWFUL! However:
It will get worse if we follow Ted’s suggestion of defining a method for converting by its being “less stringent”. This is a joke. This is like putting lipstick on a pig.
This particular case of Alin Levy is a good example of the other side of the coin. Not only are there bad rabbis. There are also bad potential converts. In fact, the number has increased only thanks to the Israeli government’s watering down in the first place of the Law of Return. I assure you that if you Google enough, you’ll find that this was intentional from the get go in order to dilute the Jewishness of what’s supposed to be a Jewish State in the first place. Maybe Yamit has a quick link up his sleeve. 🙂
I have work to attend to so I’m cutting my response short. Yes, we have a problematic rabbinical authority in charge of this realm at the moment. But no, the solution isn’t to make a laughing stock out of what qualifies someone to become a fully fledged member of the Nation which received the Torah from Hashem at Sinai, with the obligation to carry out its laws and morals to the maximum degree.
@ the phoenix:
Quite right (both you and Bear Klein).
There’s nothing worse than the “ego of religion,” and “knowing what God thinks” is one of the worst manifestations. The other is assigning oneself a holiness in the eyes of other men, that deep down one knows one doesn’t have.
@ Bear Klein:
As a newly arrived Ole chadash to israel, my late father, that did not speak any Hebrew, went to a synagogue to say Kaddish for his parents….
He was practically kicked out of the Sephardic synagogue as he was not ‘one of them’….
With this as a background, you can connect quite a few dots as to how I feel about all these chest thumping holier than thou characters…
@ Shy Guy:
You changed my prior question to avoid answering it.
Change it to a convert who does Not shomer shabbat provides charity, serves in the IDF, helps fellow citizens in need, and treats all people with love and warmth or;
One who observes Shabbat, treats people rudely, avoids serving his country, does not give charity, and generally behaves in a superior and condescending manner to his fellow human beings. He even curses at women not having sleeves on their dresses in the summer who pass by him on the street.
Who is the better person and are both Jews?
I do not believe Jews for Jesus are Jews (as they are practicing Christianity belief in Jesus).
@ Shy Guy:
Point well taken, shy, but I think you KNOW what I mean.
I raise this point as a sad commentary. I am trying to point out how FUTILE and devoid of logic (yes, I know…na’aseh v’nishmah…) this fanaticism which has…a …little ..whiff of ehm, how shall I say it delicately….. Hypocrisy?????
I pointed out in an exchange with yamit that THE chief rabbi (the head honcho!!!!) of England SIR, LORD, RABBI SACKS…. does NOT live in Israel….. one of THE foundation stones of Judaism….
Everyday amkha people, (you know, the ones who make a living by OTHER means than studying the Torah…) look to people like sacks for guidance…..
Further.
Why doesn’t the rabbinical court of Israel, while they are at it, deciding who IS and who ISN’T a Jew…why don’t they ban and excommunicate THE JEWS born in Israel (oh, they have all the necessary certificates….) the ones who fill the beaches on Saturday, the ones who fire up a manual on tisha b’av not to mention…yom kippur…., And what about the ones who in a few short months will parade with pride in YOUR neighbourhood?!!!!!
So you are telling me that THAT is ok???!!!
This is a big whiskey, tango foxtrot!’!!!!
At the end there will be two lone Jews left and each one will be thinking to himself “hmmmm…. I’m really not too sure about THIS guy…. he is not a ‘real Jew’…. Like me!
@ Bear Klein:
My previous question to Phoenix applies to you as well: How about Jews for Jesus? Should they have the “right”?
Bear Klein Said:
No. God spoke for Himself.
What does that have to do with what is required for a non-Jew to become a Jew?
I’ll give you an example. See if you can follow the logic:
Let’s say you have 2 people exactly as you depicted them in your words. One is a Jew and one is a non-Jew.
Which of the 2 persons is better?
Answer: the non-Jew. But that still does not make the non-Jew qualified to be a Jew. In fact, as pointed on in the Rabbi Tovia Singer video, which Yamit link to above, if the non-Jew will not observe the Torah once converted or is not sincere, the Rabbi is negligent and doing a disservice to the non-Jew by converting him or her.
So, you were saying?
@ Shy Guy:
So you now speak for the supreme being (G-D)?
So who is the better Jew one who fails to shomer Shabat and provides charity, serves in the IDF, helps fellow citizens in need, and treats all people with love and warmth or;
One who observes Shabbat, treats people rudely, avoids serving his country, does not give charity, and generally behaves in a superior and condescending manner to his fellow human beings. He even curses at women not having sleeves on their dresses in the summer who pass by him on the street.
the phoenix Said:
How about Jews for Jesus? Should they have the “right”?
@ Bear Klein:
Succinctly put.
Been saying the same thing in most of my posts…
Bear Klein Said:
God’s.
FIFY
When I moved to Israel (pure Jew for eternity a Cohen) the Rabbi who married me to my Sabra wife put me through a minor hell to show I was Jewish. Today I hear it is even worse. Today I would not have the paperwork because a son of Holocaust survivors everything including most of the family was destroyed. My parents were married in a remote Island. Luckily one friend of the family belonged to an orthodox temple was able to testify about the wedding. The Rabbi in the States wrote a letter in English on Temple Stationary. The rabbi who married us found great difficulty in accepting this letter. He was finally persuaded after a friend helped him read the letter.
This mindset that one type of Jew only has the right to determine who is a Jew and who can convert is defeating at best to be polite.
A friend of my who converted in the 70s in the States had no trouble moving to Israel. He became a proud IDF serving Jew. Would that be true today. Why is reform and conservative conversions okay around the world but not in Israel? Whose monopoly is being protected?
Why now are all orthodox conversions from outside of Israel not accepted?
Why are Jews in Israel less free to practice their religion than outside of Israel?
Why do some Jews think they know what is best and so sure of this are willing to risk alienating the large body of Jews outside of Israel. They certainly have helped create the wedge inside of Israel.
Why in the past in Israel did conversions to immigrants here and did not demand that they live an Orthodox lifestyle. Why is this different today?
Conversions need to be real but not trial by fire and making sure who converts will vote for a Haredi party.
yamit82 Said:
Yep.
Ted Belman Said:
You mean Ha’aretz might have an anti-Jewish agenda??? I wonder….
Where did you see me say that?
But now that you ask me, let’s think about it. Let’s take an extreme. Ted, should porn actresses who retain their jobs be allowed to convert to Judaism? I am hopefully assuming you would agree to say no to that.
Let’s bring it down a notch. What about an actress starring in the rating equivalent of PG/R movies, TV or theater? I’ll let you answer that.
Shy Guy said:
Why is it so hard to convert to Judaism?
How to Convert to Judaism
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9eok9Gm8OJw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whIekUIRHks
Shy Guy Said:
The Haaretrz article doesn’t mention that. Are you also saying that actresses can’t convert.
Levy was kicked out because she lied.
Had you been interviewing her for a job in your private company or as a babysitter for your children, you would have tossed her out, too.
But apparently, Judaism is cheap. It’s like the Mickey Mouse Club. So put on a pair of stupid ears and join the family!
A large proportion of Israelis find nothing wrong with eating pork. Or with cheating on their spouse – excuse me – partner. All fine and dandy but Judaism is not defined by trendiness or a desperation to fix a boondoggle stupid Jews created in the first place.
What you really want is open citizenship for any goy who’s got a Brooklyn accent or a Jewish ancestor listed somewhere up his/her tree on Geni.com. No thanks.