What limits should state impose on liberty?

This is a case of the state imposing its standards over all state funded schools even hareidi schools. The state says the Hareidi schools are discriminating based on race. The school says it is discriminating based on halacha. The basic question is to what extend is the state entitled to insists that its standards trump the school standards. Where and on what basis should the line be drawn? This is a question of freedom and liberty. State standards limit both.

Read Court postpones arrest of 22 Emmanuel mothers

Analysis: The fight in Emmanuel
By RUTH EGLASH

“The Price of Racism,” screamed the headline in one of Israel’s main dailies on Thursday, as the debate continued to rage over what the authorities and the media have labeled unabashed racial discrimination and segregation by ultra-Orthodox Ashkenazi Jews against a Sephardi minority in the town of Emmanuel.

However, as thousands of haredim took to the streets in Jerusalem and Bnei Brak Thursday afternoon to protest the High Court of Justice’s order earlier this week to incarcerate 43 couples that had refused to send their daughters to the Beit Ya’acov school alongside girls of Sephardi heritage, the debate turned to the right of religious freedom and to what is seen by some as the continued persecution of the ultra-Orthodox by the secular State of Israel.

Those defying the court’s order claim that their battle is not racially oriented, but based on religious beliefs.

“The ethnic question has never concerned us. I don’t mind if my daughters study in a class with 50 Sephardi girls. But we cannot accept anyone whose family smokes on Shabbat,” said the father of one of the girls in a previous court hearing.

That said, the court found shocking evidence that Sephardi students enrolled at the Independent Education Center-run school – a private entity that also receives state funding – had been singled out and grouped in a separate track. In effect, the institution had been physically divided – with separate entrances, separate teachers‚ separate rooms, separate playgrounds and even different uniforms for the two groups of girls.

Last August, when the High Court demanded that these physical barriers be removed, some of the Ashkenazi parents stopped sending their children to the school and set up a pirate learning center nearby.

Since then, the local media has obsessed over the case, using it to highlight old social and racial divides between Jews from the West and Jews from the East.

While the debate over whether there is still a racial division between Ashkenazi and Sephardi Jews in Israeli society is ongoing, what has become clear from this case is that dissension between this country’s religious and secular communities is reaching a fever pitch.

The Emmanuel story is only the latest in a series of events that have underpinned this tension. Thursday’s mass demonstration follows angry protests from religious Jews over everything from interfering social workers, to the opening of a Jerusalem parking lot on Shabbat, to the mass removal of graves in order to build an emergency room at Ashkelon’s Barzilai Hospital, and so on.

“This needs to be looked at as a religious problem, not a racial problem,” Amiram Gonen – professor emeritus of social geography at Hebrew University and an expert on the haredi community and Israel’s social demographics – told The Jerusalem Post on Thursday.

“There are many yeshivot that have Sephardi students, as well as many schools, but these institutions do not accept everyone. Rather, they look at the degree of Orthodoxy; and if a person does not keep all of its rules, then they are not accepted,” he said.

According to Gonen, the haredi community has been making strides in recent years to bridge the gap with the secular mainstream, finding work and choosing to study in public universities. He believes the authorities and the media have been depicting haredim in a negative light and bullying them to change.

“The court’s ruling this week and the media’s approach to this case has caused more problems than it has solved,” said the professor, adding that the concept of segregation all depends on how you look at things. For example, when the Shas party set up Sephardi-only schools, people saw it as empowering and not discriminatory.

Describing himself as totally secular, Gonen added: “Israel is a multicultural society, and a decision was made when the state was formed to create three major educational tracks. Within each of these three tracks, more sub-tracks have been made for each group. This is our chosen way of doing things here. Israel decided not to be a melting pot.”

Gonen pointed out that despite the existence of schools for the Sephardi religious community, “many Sephardi parents chose to send their children to Ashkenazi schools because they believe the educational framework is much better.”

“We should be asking why these girls in Emmanuel betrayed their own ethnicity and did not go to the Sephardi school there. Improving these schools is one of the solutions to this discrimination. The state should be looking into that, not punishing the parents,” he said.

“We need to be smart,” continued Gonen, who has been intensely involved in efforts to encourage haredi students to study in mainstream universities. “We could have tried a completely different set of tactics, such as removing state funding from the school.”

Gonen explained that “my philosophy is if you can’t beat them, you have to try to work with them, but what people are doing here in the last two to three weeks is just beating them [the haredi community] into submission.”

June 18, 2010 | 33 Comments »

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33 Comments / 33 Comments

  1. I am lugging around the old ball and chain. This sad situation will probably continue until I get #5 to eat his mushrooms.

    Looks like #5 has an aversion to mushrooms. 9 years looks like a keeper.

    How’s Joy?

  2. I read they recently arrested a guy called the Wedding Eater, who crashed dozens of weddings just to eat the food. How long did it take you to make bail?

    I managed to take a few dogie-bags and bribed the cops to let me go on my own recognizance. Cops will do almost anything for a good meal.

  3. I have only one thing to add to the discussion who are Jews::

    What will induce the Jews to found a state and to settle in it?
    We can trust the anti-Semites to see to that.

    Theodor Herzl

  4. I love going to other peoples weddings

    I read they recently arrested a guy called the Wedding Eater, who crashed dozens of weddings just to eat the food. How long did it take you to make bail?

  5. I do have one advantage over you Sheeb, I AM UNATTACHED!!!!

    I am lugging around the old ball and chain. This sad situation will probably continue until I get #5 to eat his mushrooms.

  6. Thanks ron, I haven’t received a backhanded insult in quite some time.

    Sorry about that Uncle, I was merely defending Laura who was pointing out similarities.

    The difference I find between Shebrew and Ayn, Ayn had no sharp edges, strong, soft and rounded edges.

    She could call you out on something without pain.

    Damn I miss her.

  8. Wrong, Laura is not the jealous type. In fact she was point out the similarities. Laura is a fine lady and a spirited Zionist and a great American.

    Thanks ron, I haven’t received a backhanded insult in quite some time.

    You too Laura at least for me just once lie a little 😉

  9. Mr. Grand, I expect all my husbands past, present, and future to support me on things like this. If you still aspire to be #6, you really must improve your attitude.

    I support you Sheeb, Can’t help it. I always side with Broads against guys, mainly for the generous perks derived. Then I was never interested in guys. I always wondered why there aren’t more lesbians?

  10. Shebrew Warrior says:
    June 19, 2010 at 1:41 am

    How can you not be jealous? Yamit82 has Dutch women writhing on his bedroom floor. The man is a babe electromagnet in your midst. You aren’t possessive of him? You aren’t jealous? Please. Let’s not be ridiculous.

    I can’t add anything to your description of me except to nod and SMILE in agreement.

    I do have one advantage over you Sheeb, I AM UNATTACHED!!!!

  12. I must admit to being very disappointed. I will have to marry at least twice more to compensate for losing you.

    I love going to other peoples weddings, reminds me of before and after commercials. How can I wangle an invite from you Shebrew?

  13. Samuel Fistel

    …and that Israel not be a “Jewish” state, rather than it become a halakhic Torah-true state…

    The problem in this case, appears to be not one of Jewish or non-Jewish, but of how “Jewish” is defined. It seems that the highly halachic Ashkenaz Jews believe that the Sephardim are not real Jews. How unusual.

    You do mention God (in the guise of Hashem) as well as Torah, and I find this refreshing. But when the methodology of worship of the One God takes precedence over the actual worship, then things become fundamentally stupid. And it was this type of fundamental stupidity that cost the Jews the land of Israel 2000 years ago when these Jews were too busy fighting and killing each other in Jerusalem, over how and why and when to worship, to notice that there were lots of guys wearing metal suits and carrying short swords and firebrands surrounding the city.

    I keep on asking people both here and elsewhere: what would Abraham have done? What did he do that was so holy? He had no code of halachah, and he wasn’t categorized into either Ashkenaz or Sephard… With all the confusion and stupidity surrounding us all, it is essential for us to get back to basics and stop competing to impress the minds of “lesser” people with our sanctimonious drivel and false piety. If you want to worship God, just do it, do it your way, and stop trying to impress us by telling us that your way is THE way because God told you so.

    And stop trying to tell people what God is “thinking” or “going to do”. We simply don’t know; everything is in His hands. And we puny humans believe we can read His mind – Melech Haolam. Indeed.

    The Baal Shem Tov said it succinctly: The talmudic scholars spend so much time and energy and effort with their studies, that they have completely forgotten about God.

  14. I must admit to being very disappointed. I will have to marry at least twice more to compensate for losing you.

  15. Mr. Grand, I expect all my husbands past, present, and future to support me on things like this. If you still aspire to be #6, you really must improve your attitude.

    Shebrew, my only aspiration is to continue to be #1 with the one and only lady I married over 43 years and I figured at age 31 I was mature enough to enter into the sacrament of matrimony for life and death do us part. It’s been and continues to be fun.

  16. How can you not be jealous? Yamit82 has Dutch women writhing on his bedroom floor. The man is a babe electromagnet in your midst. You aren’t possessive of him? You aren’t jealous? Please. Let’s not be ridiculous.

  18. Mr. Grand, I expect all my husbands past, present, and future to support me on things like this. If you still aspire to be #6, you really must improve your attitude.

  19. Laura is the jealous type

    Wrong, Laura is not the jealous type. In fact she was point out the similarities. Laura is a fine lady and a spirited Zionist and a great American.

    She is one of the First Lady’s of Israpundit. Ted will back that up.

  21. Shebrew Warrior is very much like Ayn even to the point of flirting with Yamit.

    I don’t mind, She is a FIERY SPIRITED ZIONIST! TOO

  23. There is a possibility that HaShem expects the community of American Jews to carry on after the goyim (descendants of Ishmael and Esau) destroy the current state of Jewish Israel.

    Total rationalization on your part along with the misreading of the Torah..

    Mishne Torah, Sefer Shoftim, The Laws of Kings and Their Wars, Chapter 5, Halakha 12.

    At all times, a person should dwell in Eretz Yisrael, even in a city whose population is primarily of worshippers of idols, rather than dwell in the Diaspora in a city whose population is primarily Jewish.

    In that all who leave [the land] for the Diaspora is as though he worships idols, as it is says: They have driven me out today from dwelling in the heritage of G-d, saying, ‘Go serve other gods.’ [Shmuel I 26:19] Similarly, [Ezekiel’s (13:9) prophecies of] retribution state: They shall not come to the Land of Israel.

    Just as it is forbidden to leave the Land for the Diaspora, so it is forbidden to leave Bavel for other lands, as it is written: They shall be brought to Bavel and there they shall be [until I take notice of them . . . and restore them to this place, i.e. the Land of Israel]. [Jeremiah 27:22]

    Source Halakha 12:

    Talmud Bavli, Ketuvot, 110b, Our Rabbis taught:

    One should always live in the Land of Israel, even in a town most of whose inhabitants are idolaters, but let no one live outside the Land, in a town most of whose inhabitants are Israelites; for whoever lives in the Land of Israel may be considered to have a G-d, but whoever lives outside the Land may be regarded as one who has no G-d. For it is said in Scripture, To give you the Land of Canaan, to be your G-d. [Vayikra 25:38] Has he, then, who does not live in the Land, have no G-d? But [this is what the text intended] to tell you, that whoever lives outside the Land may be regarded as one who worships idols. Similarly it was said in Scripture in [the story of] David, For they have driven me out this day that I should not cleave to the inheritance of the L-rd, saying: Go, serve other gods. [Shmuel I 26:9] Now, whoever said to David, ‘Serve other gods’? But [the text intended] to tell you that whoever lives outside the Land may be regarded as one who worships idols. [Tosafot,’Avoda Zara, 5]

    The Jew living outside the Land, constitutes the worshipping of idols because doing so denies the foundations of the Torah, i.e., the enactment of the Torah, and the living by the statutes of the Law. The project of enacting the Torah can only be legally accomplished in the Land as defined by the Law. The goal of Jewish practice is a single idea that can be dissected into three interrelated and independent subsections. The single idea is to know G-d, that is, to love G-d since the limits of human knowledge subject man’s knowing of G-d to the loving of Him. Subsection one of the idea deals with individual development; subsection two, with national development; and subsection three impacts upon universal development of mankind. Each subsection is dependent on the precepts of the Law, for it is the Law that elucidates these subsections and places definitional perimeters of their understanding. Development of self begins with adherence to all commandments which, in turn, lead to the national responsibility and finally its universal ramifications. Again, it is the participation in the project and what that participation says about the belief in the endeavor itself that is so central. There is such a notion in Jewish law because the foundation of Jewish practice is founded upon the creation of an autonomous Jewish political entity in the Land of Israel.

  28. The makhanot hypothesis:

    “In B’raysheet, the stories of the Avot foretell the future of their children.”

    When Jacob was about to encounter a potentially hostile Esau, he divided his family into two separate camps. One was to go ahead as the vanguard, and the other to remain behind in reserve until they saw what happened.

    In anticipation of the destruction of Israel by the pagan romans (descendants of Esau), Hashem used the Babylonians to establish a community of Jews in Bavel (Iraq). They carried Judaism on after Israel was lost.

    In anticipation of the destruction of the european Jews by the german christian nazis (descendants of esau), HaShem established communities of Jews in America and Israel to carry on.

    There is a possibility that HaShem expects the community of American Jews to carry on after the goyim (descendants of Ishmael and Esau) destroy the current state of Jewish Israel.

  29. Fistel;

    Torah-true Jews.

    I can prove you wrong as to their being real Torah Jews.

    The Torah-true Jews have simple priorities: being Jewish comes first, and the Jewish state comes second, especially when that state has questionable Jewish values.

    Some 47% of all Israeli Jews say you are mistaken, they identify as Jews first.

    Poll: Most Israelis see themselves as Jewish first, Israeli second

    Israel Democracy Institute releases special survey probing Israelis’ perception of identify, says 94% of Jewish population in Israel believe they are part of worldwide Jewish community

    Kobi Nahshoni

    Sixty years after Israel was established as the Jewish state and the polemic is at its peak – are we Jewish first and Israeli second or vice versa?

    An ongoing study preformed by the Israel Democracy Institute (IDI), published for the first time on Ynet, reveals that 47% of the public sees itself as Jewish first and Israeli second, as opposed to 39% who consider themselves first and foremost Israeli.

    In America, you are either loyally Jewish, or you are not.

    This statement belies your misunderstanding of Judaism and your selecting mitzvot according to your lifestyle.

    It is an oxymoron to call any Jew religious while he clings by choice to the galut. That is the equivalent of idol worship and a Hilul HaShem in rejecting G-d! You will not have a place in the world to come by choosing to reject Ha Mitzvah.

    How many times have you said next year in Jerusalem?

    Secular Jews at least are not hypocritical and most don’t know any different. The phony religious Jews are the worst.

  30. “Jewish” Israel?

    The goyim (read non-Jews for those who are squeamish and politically correct) are now on the verge of physically destroying Jewish Israel, both secular and religious together, for the “crime” of having a “Jewish” state (but they consider it a mitzva to have many arab, islamic states).

    And within “Jewish” Israel itself, the secular Jews (the hebrew-speaking goyim) are taking it out on the Torah-true Jews.

    The Torah-true Jews have simple priorities: being Jewish comes first, and the Jewish state comes second, especially when that state has questionable Jewish values.

    Secular Israelis, on the other hand, don’t know whether to crap or go blind. In America, you are either loyally Jewish, or you are not. And if not, then you assimilate, and vanish from the Jewish People.

    In contrast, in “Jewish” Israel, secular Israelis until now have been able to eat their cake and still have it. They could do this because they had a majority, and were not threatened by the religious.

    Now, the seculars are losing their majority, and many have decided that they would rather not be Jewish at all, and that Israel not be a “Jewish” state, rather than it become a halakhic Torah-true state.

    But the wish of the secular Israelis, that Israel can be a “Jewish” state in the same way that France is a “French” state, is not going to happen.

    Why? Because we are Jewish. HaShem not only gives us a choice, but sometimes He demands that we actively choose.

    “Behold: I have placed before you today life and that which is good, along with death and the bad. And the matter which I command you today: to love the Lord your G-d, to walk in His paths, and to preserve His laws, so that you may live, and multiply, and come to give thanks to the Lord your G-d in His Land which He has given to you. That is the blessing and even life itself. So choose life, that you may live, you and your descendants after you.”

    Secular Israelis may wish to live in a religious limbo, but it does not look like HaShem will allow it to go on much longer. And if you do not believe in HaShem, then why be Jewish at all, and why even have a “Jewish” state?

  31. Were I a dictator of Israel I would stand every member of our our Supreme Court against a wall…….and institute real Justice.

  33. This is pretty much a blood libel – nothing less.

    And while several dozen parents are thrown in jail for refusing to be dictated to as to how and where their children will be educated, Israeli espionage traitor Anat Kam sits in the comfort of her home under house arrest.

    Knit, Madam Defarge, knit!