[Vote in hudna poll in right column,]
By Ted Belman
PM Netanyahu told Obama Israel not planning ground op
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Senior officials tell Daily Beast Israeli PM assured US president Israel would not consider full-scale ground invasion of Gaza unless Hamas escalates rocket fire
Netanyahu says Israel will agree to ceasefire if rockets from Gaza stop.
Egypt, Turkey and Qatar are attempting to arrange a ceasefire.
If a ceasefire was to be agreed up at this time, I would accept it. Israel is looking pretty good now if one looks the price Hamas has paid for its aggression. Israel has suffered a minimum of casualties and damage. The Iron dome has proved its worth. Iron Dome system shoots down 243 rockets, with an 88 percent success rate. Some 460 rockets have landed in Israeli territory, 33 of them in built-up areas. Yet only three people were tragicly killed. It could have been much worse.
The alternative is to invade Gaza which could well turn the PR battle against Israel and result in many IDF casualties. Israel would not be allowed to finish the job and woul ultimately have to withdraw. So little to gain at great risk.
Suicide Squads Deployed Near the Border in Anticipation of IDF Invasion
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An SMS from the Islamic Jihad to several Israeli Journalists has warned that the Gaza Strip will be the IDF’s graveyard.
Report: US Opposes Ground Op in Gaza
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United States officials are pressuring Israel not to progress to a ground operation in Gaza, the New York Times reports.
According to the report, the U.S. government fears that a ground operation would lead to civilian casualties and would be turned to Hamas’s benefit.
Yamit82 and ArnoldHarris both make many worthwhile points. It is no good trying to be clever and hoping that good will, morality, purity of arms, etc will gain Israel understanding or that it will decrease the lies and hypocrisy against her. To end the immediate danger, Israel should retake the Philadelphi Corridor strike hard all around Gaza and get rid of the riligious fanatics who are just dying to kill Jews. Let the fanatics wander for 400 years in Sinai or the Syrian desert. In the meantime, something far more mundane. Turn off the electricity and dole out water in exchange for weapons and ordnance.
TV Chanel 2 in Israel poll today 76% of Israelis do not want a cease fire now 16% do. 46% want a ground incursion 32% don’t.
BB reads polls every day. Let’s see what he chooses Obama and EU or the Israeli people?
yamit82 Said:
True again. One must wonder why hamas undertook this provocation now. As an arm of the MB, with whom the US has formed a global alliance,everybody can see therewas an intent for a incident. What purpose could this serve? This is a timely deflection of media attention from benghazigate and election fraud. Perhaps the “green light” was given to both sides (as it was in Kuwait/Iraq war)
yamit82 Said:
True. Cease fire should not be based upon stopping rocket fire but upon gaza being demilitarized. There should be no humanitarian corridors as the civilians must pressure their govt to acquiesce. It is a simple concept, gaza must disarm if they want a cease fire, that’s a simple demand and a simple goal. As to when ground troops are necessary the military must know but certainly they can be kept under daily atack until they agree to disarm. Nothing less. It is insane to mobilize all the troops just to get a cessation of the current rocket fire.
@ Ted Belman:
This quote in response to:
Israel has many options to stop missile fire which she hasn’t attempted fully till now instead of the massive dog and pony show we are witnessing now. Like funding the PA who divide the money with Hamas. Like sealing the borders till they stop. Like targeting Hamas political and military leadership. Like responding 10 fold to every past attack into Israel from Gaza aimed to extract a painful price from Hamas. Ideally all of the above at the same time.
:Had they done the above the current operation would not have been necessary.
As I hae said any cease fire now leaving Hamas intact along with most of their weaponry is a victory for Hamas and that’s how it will be perceived within the Palis areas and in most of the world. Strengthens Obama and Egypt at the same time weakening Israel. The price they have paid is so far bearable and they will shake it off. It’s Israel who is pressing for a cease fire more than Hamas and it’s obvious to anyone who is a student of our conflicts and the Arab mentality.
I repeat you place too much import on PR and Israels image in the world and too little on the strategic implications and the future price we will pay for as Norman F said “Kicking the can down the road” will only raise the cost to us in the next round. Agreements in this part of the world never have and don’t today have any material value and neither do outside guarantees. They are at best the narcotic of the weak in spirit and will. Winning is the only agreement necessary and if you believe we are too weak you haven’t spoken to our reservists who mobilized over 100% to the call ups and want to finish it. Many of them come from the same cities towns and villages under attack now for years. They want to end it in the only way it can. Sending them home without a clear victory and a chance to fight is demoralizing and in that demoralization is contained another price we are paying but difficult to measure.
So since you state that “So I make an assessment on what we realistically stand to gain and question whether it is worth the risks and the lives.”
What in your opinion then are the gains to Israel? Better to good PR?
If the only reason for the current operation was to produce only cessation of missile attacks why now and not at any time in the last several years? I have said elsewhere on other threads that because of the coming elections BB had no choice but to make a show at this time. Certainly the lives of we Israelis were in no less danger in past attacks than they were 5-10 days ago so why now. BB didn’t give a damn before about our lives before why the change now? I say cynically the coming elections.
I never like you thought Israel would use our ground troops and the whole circus is more for public consumption than a real threat. I don’t think Hamas believes Israel will enter into a ground incursion either. They watch our TV and read our Newspapers in Hebrew. Since they are not being targeted what’s in it for them to agree on Israels terms? What terms? What seems to be the end game is that Israel will agree to what Egypt and Obama say we must and BB will try to spin it as an Israeli victory.
You should have in my opinion opposed this farce because at the end of the day we will have gained nothing especially deterrence and Hamas will get stronger with the help from Iran, Qatar Iran, Obama and Egypt.
Worst of all we give Hamas control of when to elevate conflict or reduce the level. Little to nothing remains in our control
yamit82 Said:
True. The best message to demonstrate Israels resolve to defend itself would be to kill the enemy. After a massive destruction of gaza it can invite the gazans to leave by boat to escape death. Israel should announce that Jew killers everywhere will be mercilessly dealt with. Care for enemy civilians who voted for their jew killling representatives is a strategic error which sends a message of weakness and does not inspire the necessary fear. Everyone must see that Israel will answer with ruthlessness and death or the message will be misconstrued.
If necessary Israel must not stop until the threat is removed. If Israel goes in it should demand unconditional surrender and the ability to monitor weapons directly. It might be in Israels favor to allow hamas to remain as a foil to fatah and reunification. The condition for a ceasefire should be the demilitarization of gaza. Let hamas(the still living) stay for now but they must hand over their weapons. This demand, which is reasonable, is an objective that allows Israel to continue degrading their infrastructure while they negotiate and fixes a goal which is sensible. It is not enough to just stop firing rockets, weapons must be removed.
@ drjb:
no problem Doc.
@ yamit82:
Yamit,
I want to ask for your approval to my printing and distributing this comment, brilliantly spelled out, throughout my contacts and acquaintances.
Words of wisdom, finally!.
yamit82 Said:
Right.
yamit82 Said:
Don’t put words in my mouth.In my belief we are not going to go in and do the complete job. So I make an assessment on what we realistically stand to gain and question whether it is worth the risks and the lives.
Attn Ted Belman,
If you think this is some sort of public relations battle between Israel and Hamas, then I think you are totally misreading both the immediate and long-term aspects of this struggle.
The State of Israel and the Jewish nation are engaged in a protracted conflict with the Arab states and their culture in particular, the Muslim religious imperium in general, and all the worldwide allies of both.
The very nature of protracted conflicts is that they frequently last for centuries. But the conflict of Islam versus the rest of the world has never slackened since the death of their prophet in 632 CE. There has been no peace between the Jewish nation and the Arab nation since large numbers of settlers began returning to Eretz-Yisrael about a century ago. No peace between the Jews and Arabs under all circumstances that now control the situation is likely, and further, I say that no peace is even possible.
Israel’s cities, like any other, cannot be fully protected from enemy rocket attacks, for reasons that Yamit has accurately spelled out in one of his comments. Just as the bombers could always break through the anti-aircraft and fighter aircraft defenses in World War II, so to will the rockets.
Defense in war is always the strategy of the losing side. Ask any Frenchman about the vast sums of money wasted on their Maginot Line before World War II.
The only defense against the Arab enemy that will work properly is to take the offensive, carving off slices of Arab territory as the only answer to every Arab military provocation. After the land is taken, annexed and administered by Israel for purposes of permanent Jewish settlement, systematic expulsions of the Arab population can be initiated, starting with the most hostile elements. The only ones allowed to remain should be those willing to contract with the State of Israel that they will reside on land under permanent Jewish control, but with all their religious and personal liberties intact. No Arabs should be jailed, except those temporarily arrested and held for civil offenses. Those engaging in outright armed terrorism should be put to death. But the only other major punishment should be permanent expulsion to places as far as possible from the core population areas of Israel.
Will any of this win Israel any popularity contests among the bystanders? The fact is, nothing Israel can do will win such a contest. So sweep it away from your obvious North American liberal Jewish mentality.
In any case, Israel can only survive in the long run by becoming a more powerful and wealthy state. The right kind of Jews on which the future Jewish nation will be based already have an extraordinarily high birth rate. Therefore, more land is needed for them to settle, and on which their children and their children’s children can raise their own families, along with the expanded opportunities for mineral extraction that are reserved for large countries.
Either Israel starts down the long road of military conquest and expulsion of its most hardened enemies, or Israel will have no option other than to engage in a nuclear war which could result in the destruction of the Jewish state as well as the states of its enemies.
Arnold Harris
Mount Horeb WI
yamit82 Said:
Absolutely true.
A truce or a ceasefire only benefits Hamas. Go in there and unleash hell. Do the job in 24 hours before the world has time to react. They are a full nation of radicalized Jihadists – the situation can’t get any worse -every child will be an indoctrinated Jihadist, every woman will have 5-6 new Jihadists so it is more important to kill the breeders than the adult Jihadists.
Get the job done in 24 hours and have 200,000 civilian casualties. Let the Jihadist world rage. The west has to kill all of them sooner or later or be killed by them – it’s time the West knows who they all are and what they are.
Arabs are learning how to defeat Iron Dome by overloading it’s capability. Now they launched 15-20 Rockets at Ashkelon. Iron Dome hit 10. 2 seem to have hit populated areas. Remember each anti missile missile launched by Israel costs $50,000. If they have as reported between 10-20k missiles and rockets. Do the math. Hezbollah has 60-70,000 missiles and rockets. What ever they lose will be replaced within months at no cost to Hamas.
Ted’s analysis is the Governments and they are wrong today as they have almost always been. The enemies of Israel will always learn our capabilities and improve forcing us to adjust and improve all at tremendous cost. Their destroyed buildings will be rebuilt giving employment to Gazans, their arsenals we be not only replaced but upgraded, increased and replaced. They will adjust their tactics so as to overcome our defenses and when they are ready will resume attacks. Israel will continue paying the Palis billions per year, supplying them with water, electricity and Israeli port facilities, radio &TV frequencies, to list jut a few.
Ted can you cite the number of rockets fired into Israel before Israel responded with real force? How many Israelis killed and wounded? How many living with psychological trepidation every min. every day? What you are asking is that on the alter of American and EU stamp of Kashrut, Israel is prepared and should concede to their threats and the threats of our enemies.
You know as well as I that they don’t care a wit about the Palsi any more than they care about the 35,000 dead Syrians or the tens of thousands of dead Libyans NATO Killed for no reason. I submit that if Israel for once showed a steel backbone and finished off one enmy it would change for the better the whole dynamic in our conflict and our position vis a vis the major powers in the West.
It is our treasonous cowardly and corrupt leaders who lack that backbone and determination. Most of the people and especially those in the South of Tel Aviv support my position. Your position I am sorry to say is defeatist and will return Israel more or less to the status quo ante.
We are still not America and can hardly continue this kind of attrition for long. It demoralizes the people, demoralizes the IDF with each non determinative operation causing less belief in ourselves. According to Ted we should disband the IDF because it’s effective function has been all but reduced to Photo ops and training videos. Fear of incurring casualties has shackled the Army’s ability to perform it’s major function defend the Land, the people of Israel and to defeat our enemies. The IDF has not defended the Land, the people nor has it defeated our enemies.
For Ted and many other, too many others in MO, PR and what the world thinks of us is more important than our lives and our future. Don’t say it’s not true because the results will be dead Jews and maybe the defeat of Israel in the future. When you weigh our lives and future on the good will and positive reaction of the gentile world that will be the result and the cost. Gaza can be retaken with much less cost in lives to ourselves than most of the Cassandras predict.
Telling the world that we will do whatever is required to secure our Land and people now and in the future from any enemy who threatens us. What we gave away 3 times will be retaken and never given up a fourth time and if they don’t like stuff it. The message may be delivered in more diplomatic terms but the gist should be clear.
People need a refresher on what a “hudna” is. From Jihad Watch, 2006:
Hugh Fitzgerald: The hudna and Fouad Ajami
I’ve wondered what’s happened to Mr. Fitzgerald since he departed JW. I found him here.
Dresdenize Gaza.
With Hamas running low on rockets, it may sue for a ceasefire because it has no way to carry on the war against Israel.
A ceasefire of course would solve nothing but merely kick the can down the road. Hamas will eventually rearm and in a couple of years Israel will need to “mow the grass” again.
A ground operation that might be launched would probably secure the Philadelphi Corridor but Israel has no real interest in occupying Gaza proper.
It would be aimed at cutting off Hamas’ means of resupply through Egypt and most Israelis would support the permanent occupation of the Philadelphi Corridor as being in Israel’s long term interests. The world could live with it when it would not live with an Israeli reoccupation of the entire Gaza territory.