T. Belman, As I have written before, what does confederation mean and what will be confederated? It is my belief that the only lands to be “confederated” with Jordan are Areas A and Gaza and such lands won’t be a state but will simply territories over which Israel is sovereign and Jordan replaces the PA and Hamas as the administrator.
By Daniel Gordis
With President Biden’s visit to Israel and Saudi Arabia this week, the future of the Palestinians—an issue that to their frustration has mostly disappeared from the news—may return to the headlines once again.
Many people’s “mantra” is that the only possible resolution of the conflict lies in a “two-state solution.” But as popular as the “two-state solution” is in European capitals, in Washington DC and among many Diaspora Jews, the harsh reality is that the two-state solution may be dead.
Only a minority of Palestinians support a two-state solution, and contrary to what many believe, the same is true in Israel. A majority of Israelis no longer support the idea, either.
What, then, might be an alternative? There are several (including, in the minds of some, doing nothing, and letting the status quo continue), but one that has been around a long time is now getting a bit more traction than it has in recent years. The proposal involves not two states, but a confederation of Jewish and Arab entities.
How would a “confederation” work? How would it be different from the two-state solution? Why might its chances of success be greater? What are its weaknesses? To get a sense of all this, we spoke with Dahlia Scheindlin, a respected journalist and activist in Israel, who has of late been trying to help revive the idea.
Agree with it or not, it’s important to understand the idea since it may once again be in the news.
@Reader
So your solution is to maintain the cleft within the state and the status quo, even as the status quo disadvantages Israel with every day that it is maintained, presenting the Arabs with a greater claim to the Jewish lands that they hold, while also maintaining their hold on the ‘right’ to determine the content of the Israeli govt, which they do not even accept as having any legitimacy? You have mentioned recently(correct me should I misrepresent your position), as I recall, that you would strip them of this right, knowing full well that no Israeli govt would have the support to do as you suggest, and that the High Court would deny them the independence to achieve this feat even if they developed the backbone to act overnight. Hence, I would suggest that your conclusion of doing nothing would, in effect, also include the lack of any remedy to the Arab spoilers in the Knessett as well.
The status quo maintains the hollow answer as to what to do with the Arabs, just as it maintains the continuation of the Terror states within Israel’s borders, just as it maintains a quiet disregard of declaring sovereignty in Judea or the boundaries of the state’s authority. These are the tools by which the TSS was built, is maintained and will remain as a potential menace until these matters are resolved to be answered with a clear and decided voice. Til that time, Israel stands upon a edge of a knife, too timid to act, caught in its current non-sovereign status, supporting terrorists who murder the innocents with complete knowledge that doing so will not dislodge the Israeli nation from its determination to determine nothing, while also being manipulated by foreign influence to act against its own interests as has been the manner by which the TSS has been repeatedly revived like the zombie menace that it is.
Do clarify where I have misread your meaning or misunderstood your plan of doing “exactly nothing”. As I see it, your plan of doing nothing will be the very cause by which the TSS may someday come to fruition, irrespective of your adamant opposition to it.
@Ted Belman
So, it is 280,000 emigrants in 10 years, their local birth rates are probably higher.
What I would do with the refugees?
Exactly nothing.
There are more than 2 billion Muslims in the world:
https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/muslim-population-by-country
If every Muslim pledged just $1/week for the “poor refugees”, they would be awash with cash but everyone thinks (including the Jews) that only Jews are responsible for them.
BTW, what did the Arabs do for the Holocaust victims and survivors who tried to enter Palestine – exactly nothing – if you don’t count the nearly constant violence.
@Reader
I just posted a YouTube with Yoram Ettinger in which he goes into the numbers.
He says that Arab emigration form the territories averages 18,000 a year and from Gaza 11,000 per year. Just imagine what it would be if people had passports and money for transportation.
Not all would go but many would.
What is your alternative? Be specific. What will you do with the refugees.
@peloni
The ones that are fleeing for the West do not come from Israel, they are fleeing the wars started by the West.
Do you have any stats on how many Arabs have “fled” from Gaza and Judea and Samaria?
Jew hatred is not caused by poverty, lack of education, etc., and just because you find certain things to be of the highest value, doesn’t mean they hold the same value for others, especially those from a totally different culture.
@Reader
Forgive my interjection here, but you do realize that they are being bought off currently, only the influence being applied is keeping them on the wrong side of the Jordan, poor, educated in Terrorism by numbers and in constant threat of being killed simply due to their locality with no hope that they might improve their lives or the lives of their children. The influences holding them include free healthcare, free education(propaganda based drivel) and other social benefits as well as public works projects. When these freebees are cancelled in Israel and sent to Mudar to allocate to his Jordanian subjects, the Arabs will be quite motivated to follow the freebees and be among the first in line on the buses to the land of Jordan where all of these amenities will be provided to them with proper inflection of history over propaganda, along with many other benefits, such as a hopeful future, productive lives and a sense of self respect and personal achievement that does not involve them living under a constant threat where they or their children might each succumb at any given moment to the rude awakening by a stray rocket. You may believe that these latter issues are not something that hold any import to the Arabs, but if this were true, why would they leave the Arab areas to live among the Westerners, whom they quite despise. In fact, some of those fleeing (eg. professionals such as doctors) actually do so under the threat of death, and this threat follows them wherever they go, should their identity be discovered, and yet they still go to find a life worth living, even as they carry their well taught propaganda with them to infect and inject into the West.
@Reader
The more hope, the more violence. If you kill hope they will despair and Jordan will look attractive. If you cut off their funds, they will be forced to emigrate to Jordan. Currently there is significant emigration. That’s why their population is decreasing…
@Ted Belman
Why do you assume you can buy them off?
So far, they’ve been acting as though they want the land more than the Jews do.
Last year we had a repeat of the Arab riots of 1921 PLUS rockets from Gaza.
The “world community” finances them, Israel bows before them, practices the apartheid against the Jews, limits aliyah, gives jobs to the PA Arabs, etc.
Now that the doctors from the FSU are retiring, Israel is planning to train Arabs to replace them.
If someone offered the Israeli Jews lots of money to emigrate, would they do it?
@Reader
The Arabs don’t support the PA or Hamas. They have no other choice.
We hope to give them a normal life and a passport and prosperity.. Many Arabs want this. The more that emigrate, the more that will want to emigrate.
We will consciously kill the Arab Narrative and Arab hope. That will make emigration attractive.
@Edgar @Peloni
https://www.israelnationalnews.com/news/356396
Q; “What time is it?”
Yogi Berra: “Do you mean, now?”
@Ted Belman
Why would the Arabs want to emigrate from what they consider their own land, especially after (according to your plan) Israel would VOLUNTARILY surround itself with the Jordanian army and give it a free passage across the country?
On the contrary, they will view this development as their victory and will fight like crazy to force THE JEWS to emigrate or be terrorized and slaughtered while the “world community” comments on the “fighting going on between both sides”.
The only Jordan option I find agreeable is the Arabs moving to Jordan from the whole of Judea and Samaria and the Green Line to Jordan in its present boundaries (no leases, no expansions, no confederations).
@Edgar G.
I was not talking about the religious issues and the Muslims’ conviction that Islam is the only true religion, etc.
I was talking specifically about the ME “conflict” which arose with the British machinations when they invented the “Arab national liberation movement” which was supposed to be directed mostly or only against the Jews but never against the British.
This particular “conflict” was artificially created and is artificially maintained by the Europeans and the Anglo countries constantly pouring oil onto the fire.
Do you really think that if the US really wanted peace in the ME and really supported the Jewish state, at least as much as it actually wants to prolong the conflict, the peace wouldn’t be achieved ASAP (and not to the detriment of Israel)?
@Peloni
Neither of us have mentioned that the takeover of Gaza and the ensuing exodus, will only take place after a major war in which much of Gaza is destroyed.
@Ted
You are right, I did, and this is a critical point to ignore. Again, it is all about incentivizing the Arabs towards what is in their own interest to do, and by incentivizing them to do it in Jordan.
In fact, I think those buses will be well filled.
@Peloni
You forgot to mention that , with the destruction of UNRWA, all refugees will have to emigrate to Jordan to receive free education, health care and old age security which are currently provided by UNRWA.
Thus if 30,000 refugees can be transported in a week, it will take a year to transport 1.5 million of them. In order for thus migration to be done successfully, the homes in Jordan must first be constructed and the same for new schools and hospitals.
In reality this should be a 3 to 5 year process.
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The pursuit of the JO is a good substitute, eternally better in every way, to the Peace Process. It does require an Arab Gorbachev, as well as a general commitment by the US and Israel and Saudi Arabia, at minimum, to support this Gorbachev. It is a great task to undertake, but it is not without its benefits to both Israel and the Jordanians and the Americans.
Regarding your question about the Jordanian public’s opinion on Israel, I really am not sure who conducted the poll you cited. Curiously enough, I can’t recall the last time I actually believed a poll conducted in the US, probably back in the 1990’s. Still, it is an easy guess that the Jordanian people are likely not supportive of Israel or her Jewish population at all (strong understatement), in any event. Similarly, they are not supportive of the current king-thief either. In fact, if they could have been rid of their leader, they would have popped that pimple long ago, and yet the little demon still persists, it seems.
The Jordanians have no economy, and are offered no hope for the future of their people and only a constant feed of antisemitic and anti-Israel rhetoric to displace their anger. They have impossible issues with water demand, and no way to remedy it without Israel’s help. Their military has long been quite dependent upon the US, and this is even more true now that the US has strategically moved their military base of operations from Qatar to Jordan (interesting story there to tell). The loss of UNWRA would be a huge benefit for Israel, but not enough to undermine the venom it has injected over the past 75yrs.
Hence, Gorbachev, aka Mudar, has his hands full to lead his people towards something which they do not have currently, a future. It starts with education and construction. Teaching the truth to the Jordanians of not just who the Jews really are, but who the Jordanians really are, will form the foundations on which the future will be built. No peace anywhere will long survive without a change in the educational tripe being promulgated to the public as history in these Arab sand castle nations.
Simultaneously, the creation of a public works project with well paying jobs, to people who live off the dust of the desert, will present them with something to lose for both themselves and their children, if they do not accept the changes in these perceptions. The influx of money and opportunity will bring its own distractions, tied to Mudar’s support of internal reforms within his nation, to provide his public with a palatable purpose to leave both a life and a livelihood greater than that of their parents to the following generations.
This is the crux of the JO to draw the Arabs in Israel and Area A and Gaza out of the land of Israel into the thriving state of Jordan, complete with trade, and intermingled economies. In any event, this is how I see things, speaking for my self, of course.
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@Sebastien
The PA could not plan a picnic without the cooperation of Israel. The entire political infrastructure of the PA is one of a tissue of lies told to the world to keep the terrorist Fatah in power. In fact, the PA is nothing more than a space saving entity preventing the expansion of Hamas, which Israel is too timid to beat into the dirt. The continued existence of the PA is based upon Israel’s support, preventing the rival clans from attacking Fatah while also maintaining the international facade of its continued illegitimate hold on power. The clans of the PA are not in any way supportive of Fatah. If Israel should force Abu Mazen to stand for election the entire situation would fold like a deck of simultaneous uprisings, ie the clans would go to war.
In any event, it is unlikely that a strongman could hold the clans together just as it is unlikely that the clans could find a compromise king or president or whatever to lead them. This would mean the most likely outcome would be for the clans to either enter a state of endless strife, or they would settle into the various clans tenuously ruling their own fiefdom. Either of these two scenarios renders the PA completely unthreatening, to a point, of course. The main concern would be if Hamas would come to power or if Fatah could hold on to power. Fatah and Hamas are each active terrorists, so terrorize the terrorists with extreme prejudice. In any event, since Israel does not care to rule these unruly lot of brigands, leave them to fish out what is what in their own area of influence, and leave Israel to watch warily for anyone choosing to export that chaos into Israel proper. I mentioned this recently, and you noted that Israel does not have the stomach to deal with this situation, and this is a fair point to consider.
Yet, they are dealing with it currently at the price of the deaths of Israeli citizens, one attack at a time. As in many things, the comfort of being able to decide to not decide on difficult questions should be ended. This long held status quo has not been maintained without a benefit, though. Indeed, that benefit would seem to be that the Israeli public have realized that there is no peace to be had at the end of the peace ‘process’. If bribes are handed to one side of the table and pressure applied to the other, which is the cornerstone of the peace ‘process’, it doesn’t matter how great the bribe that is chosen nor does it matter how strong the pressure is applied, the table will always be tossed asunder ending in chaos, turmoil and dead Jews. In fact, this process must be ended once and for all.
Of course, this is not new, but the Israeli public’s move towards accepting this fact is new and if still present in the fall, well, many things might be possible. With a political environment in the US to support this fact, the eternal peace process could finally be ended. Of course, it would be easier by far for all involved if the peace ‘process’ which only brought war might be replaced with a real process of alliance between Israel and Jordan which could simply lead to peace, especially given the lack of any certainty as to when the Americans will return to enjoying the luxury of a representative govt or good leadership.
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@Sebastien
The PA could not plan a picnic without the cooperation of Israel. The entire political infrastructure of the PA is one of a tissue of lies told to the world to keep the terrorist Fatah in power. In fact, the PA is nothing more than a space saving entity preventing the expansion of Hamas, which Israel is too timid to beat into the dirt. The continued existence of the PA is based upon Israel’s support, preventing the rival clans from attacking Fatah while also maintaining the international facade of its continued illegitimate hold on power. The clans of the PA are not in any way supportive of Fatah. If Israel should force Abu Mazen to stand for election the entire situation would fold like a deck of simultaneous uprisings, ie the clans would go to war. In any event, it is unlikely that a strongman could hold the clans together just as it is unlikely that the clans could find a compromise king or president or whatever to lead them. This would mean the most likely outcome would be for the clans to either enter a state of endless strife, or they would settle into the various clans tenuously ruling their own fiefdom. Either of these two scenarios renders the PA completely unthreatening, to a point, of course. The main concern would be if Hamas would come to power or if Fatah could hold on to power. Fatah and Hamas are each active terrorists, so terrorize the terrorists with extreme prejudice. In any event, since Israel does not care to rule these unruly lot of brigands, leave them to fish out what is what in their own area of influence, and leave Israel to watch warily for anyone choosing to export that chaos into Israel proper.
I mentioned this recently, and you noted that Israel does not have the stomach to deal with this situation, but they are dealing with it currently at the price of the deaths of Israeli citizens. As in many things, the comfort of being able to decide to not decide on difficult questions should be ended. This long held status quo has not been maintained without a benefit. Indeed, that benefit would seem to be that the Israeli public have realized that there is no peace to be had at the end of the peace ‘process’. If bribes are handed to one side of the table and pressure applied to the other, which is the cornerstone of the peace ‘process’, it doesn’t matter how great the bribe that is chosen nor does it matter how strong the pressure is applied, the table will always be tossed asunder ending in chaos, turmoil and dead Jews. In fact, this process must be ended once and for all. Of course, this is not new, but the Israeli public’s move towards accepting this fact is new and if still present in the fall, well, many things might be possible. With a political environment in the US to support this fact, the eternal peace process could finally be ended. Of course, it would be easier by far for all involved if the peace ‘process’ which only brought war might be replaced with a real process of alliance between Israel and Jordan which could simply lead to peace, especially given the lack of any certainty as to when the Americans will return to enjoying the luxury of a representative govt or good leadership.
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@Ted
Very nicely conceived. The greatest aspect of the JO is that it it incentivizes the Arabs to do what is in their interests. By managing this single point, it motivates them to emigrate without any force or any seizures or any violence. Every foot across the Jordan acts to eliminate the cleft in Israel while it also increases the move towards peace, peace in Israel and peace, real peace, with Jordan, and every foot crossing the Jordan is crossing under their own initiative, towards a brighter future and greater opportunities. This is why these opportunities need to be placed on the Eastern shore-side of the Jordan and not within Israel, the PA, or Gaza.
The JO offers a roadmap by which greater amiability and interdependence in economies may be achieved. Hence, it does not impose a political solution so much as it leads to one, not due to force requirements and strict mandates ignoring the conditions surrounding these required actions as was the case with Oslo, and why Oslo was always destined to fail, almost as if this was the underlying purpose or the Oslo plan. Indeed, the JO is a remarkably well considered plan, IMHO, which offers key solutions that no other framework has offered or even considered. It immediately eliminates any question surrounding the Jewish character of Israel as the Arabs will have Jordanian passports, and this is a massive benefit all by itself, for which the High Court will have no authority to rule upon. Furthermore, it leads to a process of moderation among the Arabs on both sides of the Jordan. This will be immediately supported with just the elimination of UNRWA, but will be further supported by the efforts of Mudar’s internal Jordanian reforms. The reforms and the opportunities planned in Jordan will be quite enticing to the Arabs to move there, on the buses back – free bus fair for all takers plus free housing on the other side of the Jordan with the only catch being that they do not return – just go, be well, and stay gone. The reforms envisioned for Jordan provide for an economy with established trade and travel between Israel and the Jordan. This aspect of the plan will be especially successful if Israel stops incentivizing the Arabs to remain in Israel with work projects and supportive aid and wifi and simply translocates those incentives to the far bank of the Jordan where Mudar can manage them for his own people as he sees best.
@Reader
Don’t disparage the bussing idea.
1. First the Jordan army will move into area A. Once it is ensconced there it can then expand to Gaza. So in stages.
2. A school bus holds 80 people. Lets say it can make 4 trips a day. Each bus with different drivers can then transport 300 people in a day (24 hrs).
3. 100 buses will therefor transfer 30 thousand in a day.
4. Cut the number of buses in half or the trips to 2 a day and thus it will take two days. But let’s allow a week to do it to be on the safe side.
5. One bonus is that when the buses return from Gaza, they can be filled with emigrants.
I repeat.
1. We are not ceding any land.
2. Israel can simply cancel the PA and administer A and B and Gaza itself or replace the security forces of the PA with the Jordanian Army.. Its up to Israel.
3. no one has suggested what Israel should do with the Arabs.. By the way there are about 1.6 million in Gaza and 1.6 million in Judea.
4. The JO is a blue print for inducing them to emigrate.
5.Gaza, A and B have be kept separate until such time as Israel is prepared to do away with them and apply Israel law.. Perhaps it can be considered after only 50% have emigrated.. In the meantime the Arabs must be restricted to these areas.
@READER-
The conflict is not the PRESENT one. It is enshrined in the parts of the Quran that those Mamzerim prefer to dwell on to satisfy their superiority feeling over the Jews, and as such, has been going on for 1500 years..
The Present one also may or may not be artificial but is has been going on uninterruptedly for over 100 years. There are 4 living generations of mamzerim which have been brainwashed into a visceral hatred of Jews.
Whilst Jews still have the Ghetto mentality, it can be overcome by extreme , back-to-the-wall danger, at least in Israel. And, allowing that the Jordan Option succeeds , it would be an enormous influence, IF at the same time Israel put on pressure, and forget parochial jealousies.
Which brings us to an OFTEN ASKED question, which may not have an answer……
TED-, when is the Jordan is Palestine/Jordan Option, NOW expected to become active, and move along. I think that a HUGE problem is that outside International interferences aiming at a different path are in the way.
It is THEY who are keeping Humpty-Dumpty in power and “relevant”. If and when Trump returns to the White House, it may be the time to bring it to him.
And, again, leasing to Arabs is dangerous, you then need a red-hot pitchfork to winkle them out of it, not taking into account Jew-Hating international pressure.
Just my opinion, but as valid as anyone’s.
It doesn’t matter what name is given to the mouse trap or to the poisoned bait – the GOAL of it is to diminish the territory of the Jewish state to make it indefensible and to ultimately destroy it which will result in another Holocaust, even worse than the last one.
@Ted Belman
The conflict is completely artificial.
It was created by the British in order to scuttle the “Zionist project” and to create a pan-Arab Middle East under the British colonial domination.
During and after the war it was supported and maintained by the “world community” in order to destroy the Jewish state and give some nice bonuses to the military-industrial complex.
The whole thing is utterly ridiculous, and the only reason the Jews take it seriously is because they have been browbeaten into it by the actions and the constant shouting of their dear “civilized” friends, such as the EU and the US.
It is like siccing some made up “refugee” population on Monaco and then blackmailing Monaco into “ceding land for peace”, so that the “world community” will not label Monaco an “apartheid” and the “freedom fighters” will stop terrorizing the citizens of Monaco.
Israel has to leave all the Oslo and other harmful accords that it has signed, repeal all the old laws still active in Judea and Samaria, namely, the Ottoman law, the Mandate law, the Jordanian law, and the military law, and declare that all of Judea and Samaria is now under Israeli law with NO citizenship or residency permits given to the Arabs.
Their reason for doing all this must be that otherwise Israel’s existence is threatened and, therefore, the government must act to protect the country and the people.
Any rioters will lose their citizenship, residency permits, and benefits immediately.
Etc., etc.
@Sebastien Zorn
The Saudis didn’t come up with it, it is in the Deal of the Century:
@Ted Belman
Let’s say there are 40 seats for the soldiers in each bus – the rest will be used for their stuff.
Then you will need 1,000 buses to transport 40,000 people assuming that the roads are appropriate for this kind of traffic.
To me, it doesn’t sound feasible (even if we assume that the Jordanians who are mostly “Palestinians” would ever fight against fellow “Palestinians”).
@TED-
A serious situation requires even MORE serious actions. The 3 mill ( i though that Ettinger said there were only about 1.6 mill) could be given the choice of moving to Jordan and housed free with benefits, or having all services cut off by Israel, AFTER the PA is rendered “defunct” by Israel.
This needs of course, the success of your Jordan Option, which is by far the best solution. Mudar ‘s co-operation in receiving the returning Arabs would be very encouraging. Leasing land to the Arabs is self defeating, and it would never end. I don’t like itl. Leases that are indefinite or renewable (in perpetuity??) are VERY hard to bring to a close. It could take 50 or more years with fighting all the way. (Look at the Squatters still in the Jewish Jerusalem Property.i
I know it’s all a big “if” ‘maybe” “should” etc but is perfectly DOABLE
We NEED the LEADER to implement it, and amongst the endemically jealous, vindictive and quarrelsome Israels …..?????
Assuming a successful “Jordan is Palestine” with Mudar installed and active, it would be a big plus and perhaps impel co-operative movement from Israel. It only needs “some” Arabs to move over, and find the benefits are REAL, for the rest to begin packing to get in on the “goodies”.
I am assuming a defunct PA. Gaza on it’s own with a known 50% who WANT to emigrate, would wither..
A bit of wild-ish speculation here, but in my opinion, possible.
@Ted The latest Saudi pie in the sky proposal suggests tunnels.
https://www.israelnationalnews.com/news/356508
@Edgar Israel just does not have the leader to say STOP….; Get the hell out of our Land.
@Edgar, @Reader
My solution doesn’t involve giving land away. We keep it but lease if to Jordan.. .So how are you going to get rid of the 3.3 million Arabs in Gaza and Judea? So long as they are there, we must get rid of the PA and Hamas..
What’s your solution other than to say don’t give anything away. How are you going to solve the conflict?
Seb from the strip to Amman in a straight line is 72 miles. By road it’s mot that much more.
When I lived there the distance from Tel Aviv to the beginning of the “territories” was just under 9 miles. The whole country. is SO tiny that one fails to realise it. Took less than 15 mins by car.
@Sabastien.
The distance is 145 kilometers and the Jordan Army will get there by bus. Israel can always decide to manage Gaza themselves but I think they will opt for Jordan to do it..
It will be cheaper for Israel to pay the cost of doing it. ie soldier salaries.. It will also be good for Jordan because it will provide them with jobs.
I support READER here 100%. He is RIGHT. It’s OUR Land and we MUST be Sovereign in it. Let the Goyim squabble between themselves about how much they can steal from Israel,. But then REALITY should set in.They can steal NONE. Not without our agreement. And NO Govt, has any right to give awy any Part of Eretz Yisrael, Perhaps temporarily under extreme duress thei has happened , but we always returned and expanded again.
I am even against Area A going to Jordan. Let the people loving there go to Jordan there’s lots of empty space. Israel has NONE. Reader is CORRECT.
And as for Sebastien’s 42,000 PA “Army”..Pooh. They ALWAYS cook the figures to get more international “aid”. Maybe10,000 terrorist/beggars. And they’d run like rabbits at the sight of a brigade of tanks coming at them. They’d skip over the Jordan like birds.
Israel just does not have the leader to say STOP….; Get the hell out of our Land.
@Ted Distance from Jordan to Gaza is 292.71 miles or 471.07 km, the driving distance is 517.34 mi or 832.58km.
https://www.distance.to/Jordan/Gaza
@Ted
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-17140711
So, how will the Jordanian army get to Gaza?
@Ted So, if a Palestinian Gorbachev doesn’t appear, the Knesset will terminate the Oslo Accords for cause – assuming they will and assuming the Supreme Court doesn’t over-rule them which would mean restoring the status quo ante of IDFrule but now the PA, even without Fatah and the other terrorist organizations have a big army – couldn’t find the latest figures but it was 42,000 in 2007
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_National_Security_Forces
So, that would mean an elective war? And then job of occupation and policing would be handed off to Jordan?
Would the IDF, Shabak, Mossad still have the freedom to ho in and root out and arrest terrorists at will?
@Ted Belman
Why do we have to always “pick our poison”?
Let THEM pick THEIR poison.
Soon there will be nothing left of the Jewish state – maybe that’s why the politicians are fighting so hard for the visaless entry into the US?
I am posting a map that someone else posted here 5 years ago which shows that Israel has NO LAND TO GIVE TO ANYONE:
http://www.al-rassooli.com/tiny-israel.html
Even gigantic Russia is fighting for every inch of its territory, and Ukraine will not give up territory (which was gifted to it from the Russian Imperial lands by the early Soviet Union) “for peace”, do we need another Holocaust to remind us where we really belong?
Mudar and I have never discussed that question.. But we have always been against financially supporting the PA and UNRWA. So UNRWA will definitely crash.. The PA will be a tougher nut to crack.. Perhaps a Palestinian coup is the answer.. Terminating the Oslo Accords for cause is another path. It would be replaced by a lease to Jordan of A and B. The lease would contain much the same terms as the Accords do except that Jordan will be the administrator.
@Ted How will Jordan replace the PA?
@Sabastien
I answered that question here.
A Confederation Between Jordan and West Bank Palestinians Offers an Organic Solution
.
I am totally against such a confederation or annexation by Jordan. The Jordan River is the only border I will accept. On an interim basis , once Mudar is in power, Jordan will replace the PA and manage Areas A and B in their stead. When Israel finally destroys Hamas, Jordan will maintain law and order there. Over the next 10 years about 2 million Arabs from Judea and Samaria and Gaza will emigrate to Jordan. Then Israel will extend Israeli law to all lands west of the Jordan.
Even if less than 1 million move and a and B remain, Israel will still be the sovereign or landlord and we no longer will have the PA or Hamas making trouble. Mudar will be our partner all the way. Gaza, A and B will no longer be a problem.
Also antisemitism will go way down because it will no longer be fueled by the Palestinian cause.
@Ted Does your vision of the JO mandate confederation?
AND?
Now we can rest easy because Trump HIMSELF said it’s FINE?
Yeah, like the “demilitarized” Germany, and with the NATO “peacekeepers” stationed in Israel (pretending not to notice when the Arab they-are-just-children throw rocks at the Jews and their vehicles)?
There are problems with every policy. We have to pick our poison. For me our best shot is the JO.
Even if ONLY Areas A and B are “confederated” with Jordan, this represents a victory for the Arabs and an encouragement to keep up the terror and the propaganda since the “confederation” will enlarge the 78% (Transjordan) of the Mandate area intended as the National Home of the Jewish People and stolen by the British to now become 90%(?!)
It is UNBELIEVABLE that any Jew would even think about this as a possibility!
Isn’t it obvious that if Abbas likes this idea something must be really wrong with it?
Do most Jews have a death wish?
Reposting my comment from a week ago about “confederation” which is another poisoned bait – the result is The Final Solution to the Jewish Question – this time with the old British plan , a pan-Arab ME with the Jews as dhimmi in their ghetto (at best).
“The only solution is an Israeli- Palestinian- Jordanian Confederation.”
This is worse than the TSS and Oslo combined.
This means that Israel is going to disappear as a sovereign (even imperfectly) Jewish state and replaced with a confederate state with a new name, government, no internal borders, etc. (right away or eventually – have no doubt about it) with an Arab majority constantly screaming and complaining about the “white, colonial” Jewish minority creating an “apartheid state”, namely:
Gaza (not mentioned here but presumed) ~ 2 million – very young and highly fertile population (with a “Palestinian”-controlled tunnel or road cutting Israel at the waist to form the “Palestinian” part of the confederation);
the Green Line – 2 million;
Judea & Samaria – ~ 2.5 million;
Jordan – 11 million.
The total is ~ 17.5 million Arabs vs. 7 million Jews who are already treated worse than the Arabs in the “Jewish National Home” within the Green Line.
Just glorious!
This really sounds, to put it mildly, like a very bad joke.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/abbas-voices-support-for-tripartite-confederation-with-israel-and-jordan/
Got that? UNANIMOUSLY!
And in the unlikely event they did, what are the odds Israel would get Jordanian troops out after ten years without the very elective war this is intended to prevent. . Nobody honors these caveats when push comes to shove, eg, Res 242 and Oslo.
And it won’t stop the international diplomatic assault. The PA and Gaza are not states, for all the symbolic gestures of recognition. Jordan is. Only 2 countries recognized the Jordanian occupation of Yesha. But, now, Israel will be seen as conferring legitimacy.
Jordan is not the kind of ethnically homogenous single clan-governed Arab state such as the emirates Mordechai Kedar has pointed to. There are many clans from many places. This confederation plan would destabilize the country with the longest border with Israel. It’s the fear of that very destabilization that has led Israel to prop up the king! This would hardly dissuage those fears.
The Palestinian Arabs would get all kinds of free goodies to attract them in but Jordanian troops would do the fighting?
These are some reasons that I think this plan would be a disaster and it is part odf the same syndrome that led some Israeli soldiers to initiate Peace Now and get out of Lebanon because they were tired of being shot at and feeling like occupiers.
Nobody will fight for Israel if Israelis won’t do it. And whoever actually has troops and settlers on the ground wins.
“Possession is 99 percent of the law.”
Why on earth would Jordan want to do this for Israel? There were even protests against the water energy deal Jordan so desperately needed. The murderer of Israeli schoolgirls in the Island of Peace Massacre is held up as a hero, he!s been released. Then there was the attempted murder in the Israelu embassy and the outrage at hus attacket being killed. The furor over metal detectors on the Temple Mount. Every poll says antisemitism is rampant. They admire Hamas and hate Israel. Jordanian soldiers would fight people they regard as brothers in Gaza and the PA on behalf of the Jewish state? If Mydhar Zahran came to power and forced them to do that, they’d overthrow him in a second. They are only unified against the king.