Peloni: Why is it so hard for people to accept this fact?
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Menu There is no diplomatic solutionIsrael should declare three nos;
no to nuclear Iran, no to two-state solution, no to bi-national state
no to nuclear Iran, no to two-state solution, no to bi-national state
@Sebastien Zorn
Funny.
@Reader Nice little evasion.
https://youtu.be/u_f6qFBQD9U?si=srt4wX_oNdpT3nO2
@Sebastien Zorn
It is not really complicated.
In the US the term “nationality” means what country you are from, not your ethnicity, in the SU the term’s sole meaning was “ethnicity”, e.g,, Gypsy, Kalmyk, Jew (no religious observance necessary), Russian, Ukrainian, German (could be completely “russified” and the family not having been anywhere in Germany for centuries but still identifies as a German has a German last name), etc.
I assume no such thing, and I don’t understand what you mean.
It did happen in the Baltics right before the war and I stated why, I am not suggesting that the Jews who own real or business property should be deported somewhere.
Of course, nobody wanted it but who and how was supposed to object?
@Reader
https://www.jewishberkshires.org/community-events/berkshire-jewish-voice/berkshire-jewish-voice-highlights/why-are-jews-from-the-former-soviet-union-often-called-russians
“…Colonel General David Dragunsky, twice awarded the gold hero medal (the highest combat decoration) told the author that there were at least 100 Jewish generals in the Red Army during the Second World War. This figure is mentioned in an in official booklet, published in Moscow, on minorities in Russia.(In the 1970’s there were approximately 2 million Jews in the Soviet Union. With emigration, the number has now fallen sharply, there are probably only half that number in Russia.)
– “Russia’s Heros 1941-45” by Albert Axell, New York, 2002. p. 156. —
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As of 2024, the Jewish population in the former Soviet Union is estimated to be very small, with most sources citing a figure around 132,000 people primarily residing in Russia, making it a significantly reduced number compared to the pre-Soviet era due to large-scale emigration, particularly to Israel, following the fall of the Soviet Union. ”
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And, it’s nothing short of amazing how you blithely assume that nobody would object to Jewish property owners – you also don’t seem to care that mostly Jews were rounded up – being deported to forced labor camps even if what you said is true and Stalin assumed that there were former bourgeois under every bed and in every job out to get him and set up a Kafkaesque system of persecution based on that antisemitic paranoia.
Adam is right. It is so truly weird to see Trotskyists defending Stalin’s Russia, though I suppose no weirder than Trotskyists defending Israel. You know you two are unique, right?
And I can just see you asking American blacks what they were so upset about, what with slavery and Jim Crow, even the Middle passage, I mean it’s not like all of them were killed right, mostly they were just enslaved. They should be grateful, right?
Halleluyah 😀
https://youtu.be/-jDYrPLXfaw?si=ZXa2nUknSB-oqdN9
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Youse guys should sell tickets, you know? You’d make a killing. 😀
@Sebastien Zorn
Yes, seriously, because the real estate and business property was “nationalized” under the Soviets and the owners deported.
Only a percentage of the Lithuanian Jews (for example) were deported, the rest of them stayed and were killed.
Many Jews refused to believe the rumors of German atrocities and stayed where they were to greet the Germans – guess what happened to them when the Germans showed up.
I am not trying to justify the deportations (BTW, Poles and Germans throughout the country were especially targeted), it’s just you cannot predict the future, and being deported still beats being shot and thrown in the pit.
As I mentioned whole factories, institutions, organizations, universities (with all of their students and teaching staff) etc. were evacuated together with their staff without regard to ethnicity.
Where do you get this BS? Soviet Jews never had a J in their passports, you are confusing them with German Jews.
Internal passports there were introduced in 1932 (with “nationality”, i.e. ethnicity), and it was a mess ’til 1938 because there was no common definition of what this term meant and how to obtain the right information.
Was it the SU who forced Israel to drag the PLO out of Tunis and to sign Oslo accords, etc.?
And the PLO/PA? “police” was armed by the US who sells weapons to the whole world including the ME.
If the Arabs/Muslims didn’t know that the US, EU, and GB are backing them (including financing) in their fight against the “Zionist entity”, they would be sitting there nice and quiet, and Israel and the Diaspora Jews wouldn’t have a problem.
Yohay Sponder 😀
https://youtu.be/vYUG0ywakOc?si=Ka92wviEHZMwfTnq
@Reader
Oh, Ok. Seriously? Gosh, makes me grateful I don’t own anything. Though, I have a hunch it wouldn’t do me any good just the same if your sort ever came to power. 😀
“The arrests and deportations reached their peak on the “night of June 29 when hundreds of thousands of people were arrested, most of whom were Jewish and the rest [ethnic] Poles.” They were taken from their homes or sometimes straight off the street. Even some refugees who had taken up Soviet-sponsored jobs, and some who had accepted Soviet citizenship were caught up in the swift and efficient roundup operations and summarily deported on the trains with the rest.” ibid
@Reader You said
😀
Oh, well, that makes it ok, of course.
Apropos of nothing, do you know the joke about the Communist Party Cadre in Hungary after the war during the transition period talking to a peasant about how “Socialism” will benefit him?
Let’s say somebody has 2 tractors, he keeps one and the state gives the other two somebody who doesn’t have one. Sound fair?
Sure?
Let’s say somebody has 2 cars, he keeps one and the state gives the other two somebody who doesn’t have one. Sound fair?
Sure.Let’s say somebody owns two acres of farmland. He keeps one and the state gives one to someone who doesn’t have one. Sound fair. Yes!
Ok, let’s say somebody has 2 pigs.
WAIT! I have two pigs. 😀
@Reader Hundreds of thousands were arrested and packed into cattle cars to labor camps in Siiberia. And they singled out Jews. We should be grateful we were only enslaved and under brutal conditions many did not survive?
By the way, you do know Jews who were Soviet citizens had a J printed on their internal passports before and adter the war. Same justifications used as are used for racist “Affirmative Action” now DEI quotas formerly known as Numerus Clausus.
I went to the dentist a few days ago and wrote N/A in the boxes marked, race and ethnicity but it didn’t ask for nationality.
Years ago Rush Limbaugh urged listeners to write American under race on the census. I did that and suddenly things started happening to my mail.
There’s really no accurate way of knowing how many American Jews there are. I put Buddhist down on the hospital form.
Sorry, somehow I don’t feel grateful. Fancy that. Some Buddhist.
And yes, everybody screwed us including the Americans. That’s why when push comes to shove there is only Israel. And if there had been then, there might have been no Holocaust, or at least a smaller one.
And lets not forget that the Soviet Union took up where Nazi Germany left off on arming, indoctrinating and training the Muslims to murder us. Arafat and Abbas were KGB agents trained in Moscow.
There was a brief moment where they used us for their own purposes before discarding us again. As the saying goes, “So, What do they want, a medal?”
Did you read what they did to Solomon Mikhoels and the Jewish Anti-Fascist Committee they had exploited for propaganda and fundraising in the West? Probably because Stalin thought Jews run everything.
@Sebastien Zorn
Some Jews were deported before the war from the Baltics, usually the ones who had real estate and such, the non-Jews were deported also.
As bad as it was, it saved their lives, and I have met Jews who were quite grateful for this in spite of the bad conditions they or their parents had to endure.
Once the war started, the SU evacuated whole factories, hospitals, scientific institutions, universities, etc. – how much comfort could anyone expect with the German military advancing rapidly and carpet bombing everything on the way, and, certainly, with a shortage of transportation?
After the war those Jews who were Polish citizens were allowed to leave he SU.
@Reader, Edgar “the Forgotten Ally” by Pierre Van Paasen, 1942/43 recounts how the Yishuv and the Jewish brigade defeated the Germans in North Africa for the British after the British had already lost. See especially chapter 4. Amazon has it as an ebook for $1.99 or more expensively for paperback or hardcover. I’m reading one of his two memoirs now, “Days of Our Years.”
Oops, sorry, “To Number Our Days”. I have the other one, which he wrote first, but haven’t started it yet.
@Reader Out of the fire, into the frying pan
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exile_of_Jews_in_the_Soviet_interior_during_World_War_II
Note it says most of the refugees were not Jewish but most of those arrested were.
@Edgar G.
The SU received 1/3 of the amount of Lend Lease that the GB got, and only 1/5 of the total amount.
Please, recall that this help WAS NOT FREE.
The SU started asking to open the 2nd front in July, 1941.
It lost 27 million people, both soldiers and civilians while the Londoners didn’t even bother to use bomb shelters during their Blitz (because they were so brave), etc., etc.
The US had no transportation for the Jewish children who ultimately perished in Europe but it used the Lend Lease ships to bring in almost a million of German POWs and then to feed them well, and the officers didn’t even have to work, this is because the US wanted to have a good relationship with Germany after the war.
The ships had to be loaded with something to go back, so the Nazis were chosen over the Jewish children.
The Anglos seemed to be very angry that the SU defeated Germany, and rewarded Germany with the Marshall Plan (in the 1950s Germany did better than England), and the SU with the Cold War and a secret plan to use several hundred nukes on it.
SEB-
in the opinions of many, including myself, Dona Gracia was the greatest Jewish woman in history. She didn’t save hundreds but thousands… As well as financing their future living…. She had several escape routes including one trough the Low Countries, Many were sent to Italy also,
Even North Africa.
.
The dangerous, adverse conditions she worked under are impossible to really take in.
READER-
The USSR did NOT single handed almost defeat the Nazis, Not nearly even…..!!
The British and the US, taking both the war in Europe and the Middle and Far East, won at least 3/4th of it and maybe more.
The British facing the Blitz alone for a whole 2 years was at very least similar to Russia’s whole effort. Which, may I add, they would certainly NOT have been able to survive without the many millions of tons of war materiel, thousands of planes, guns destroyers, food and just about everything, the UK sent, in thousands of convoys up through the Arctic Circle.. The Merchant Navy alone lost well over 40,000 sailors doing so. Also over 2500 ships; cargo and otherwise were lost in the War.
The Med is so littered with sunken vessels that they must be piled on top of one another……..
The UK alone from 1939-44 produced just under 100,000 aeroplanes of all types for war use. 1945 was much reduced so not included.
. As you probably saw my post , I read the whole of Churchill’s WW2 history, including all the cables to and from Roosevelt and Stalin. The results of their various meetings, Stalin’s smiling duplicity, Roosevelt’s growing weakness and fading into oblivion, etc
It was absolutely impartial, warts and all.
I venture to add that without the Middle East, Greece, Cyprus, the African Desert with El Alemain, Tobruk and much more, drawing hundreds of German Divisions away from the Russian front, Russia would have been down the drain within a year at most. They were all separate war theatres, under different Supreme Commanders.
So you see Reader, I’ve given you t least 3-4 major reasons as to why Russia did NOT win the War almost single handed. And there was much more I didn’t mention…….MUCH………!!
@Reader Ever heard of Solomon Mikhoels and the Jewish Anti-Fascist Committee?
https://encyclopedia.yivo.org/article/1286
@Reader So we are in agreement. The ends justify the means. Except when they don’t. And especially when they are at my people’s expense. The Soviet Union actrd in its own perceived interest which only occasionally helped us. They also hurt us big time. I lost my sentimentality about them 25 years ago.
@Sebastien Zorn
What Lord Palmerston actually meant is that for us (the British) the ends always justify the means.
This included locking the Jews out of Palestine and the rest of the world (together with the US) to help the Germans and their collaborators in Europe to finish off most of the European Jews.
I certainly don’t romanticize the SU but if it didn’t defeat Nazi Germany almost single-handedly in WWII, we wouldn’t be arguing here right now because the Holocaust would be really HOLOcaust (100%).
@Reader Yup. It’s all empires, like I said. 😀
Dear Poland was actually the first to attack in order to vastly increase its territory:
It did manage to grab western Belarus and western Ukraine, and the Polish wonderful colonial policies caused the WWII massacres of Poles in both countries, although those policies certainly weren’t the fault of the victims who were mostly simple peasants.
@Reader I agree with Lord Palmerston. And so did the Soviet empire you so romanticize. It’s all empires. There’s nothing else except in your imagination. But some are more just than others in any given period. Were empires that protected Jews and Christians unjust? Would you oppose them in war?
The Houthis slogans are death to Israel and America, curses on the Jews.
If we accept the U.S. as being “imperialist?” Who are you rooting for. French colonialsim protected Jews as French citizens who sibsequently had to flee.
These are examples of colonialism being A POSITIVE GOOD.
In Palestine, British colonianism went from good to bad.. America too
Is it good for the Jews? That is the question
“Lord Palmerston 1784–1865. British statesman; Prime Minister, 1855–8, 1859–65. We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow.”
”
Those that bless Israel will be blessed and those that curse Israel will be cursed and all the world will be blessed through them”” Genesis 12:3
All I can say, try applying it to yourself.
This is why the US has the foreign agents laws, and Russia has them now too, and every country should.
Sovereign countries are not a collection of aboriginal tribes that you can set against each other in order to take over or make them fight each other in order to, in the meanwhile, rob them of their resources, or have them simply exterminate each other, or to achieve some other goals.
This policy is deeply EVIL.
@Reader “Gave?” Poland fought a war of independence from the SU – Trotsky’s Red Army -which ended in an armistice 1919-21. Though Poland then went on to persecute its own Jewish citizens even before the Nazi invasion.
I agree with the proxy strategy and I might add that colonial powers protected Jews that way at one time. Not Just Christian powers in Islam. During the Spanish and Portugese Inquisition, the Ottoman empire did that thanks to the influence of Dona Gracia Mendez. Nasi
AI Overview
+3
“Ottoman rescue of Jews Dona Gracia Mendes” refers to the historical event where Dona Gracia Mendes Nasi, a wealthy Jewish woman, used her influence and network within the Ottoman Empire to rescue hundreds of Jewish people, particularly “conversos” (crypto-Jews) forced to convert to Christianity in Spain and Portugal, from the clutches of the Spanish Inquisition by facilitating their escape and resettlement in Ottoman territories, where they could practice Judaism openly; essentially acting as a kind of “underground railroad” for Jewish refugees.
Key points about Dona Gracia Mendes Nasi:
Her background:
Born in Portugal, she was a converso, meaning her family outwardly converted to Christianity while secretly practicing Judaism.
Wealth and power:
Her husband was a successful merchant, which gave her significant financial resources to support her efforts.
Escape network:
She established an elaborate network to smuggle Jews out of Spain and Portugal, using her business connections to facilitate travel and provide safe havens.
Ottoman refuge:
She actively worked to settle these rescued Jews in Ottoman territories, particularly in the city of Salonika, where they could live openly as Jews. ”
And the Ottoman navy even used a blockade to punish them for persecution of Jews.
Now, there’s a biopic that needs to be made. Who should play her? Jewish actresses only, for once, no more “Jewface.” Heroic Jewish roles are never played by Jews these days, just a few quirky supporting leads. Yet Jewish actress, Scarlett Johanssen was bullied into giving up a role she had accepted as a transgender because she isn’t.
The argument that actors should be able to play anything becomes disingenuous when an antisemitic double standards are applied.
Recently finished “People Love Dead Jews: Reports from a haunted present” by Dara Horn which just came out. Really interesting. Though I disagree with her prejudice against happy endings.
Watched “Cast a Giant Shadow” again over the holiday. We need heros. Leon Uris said that’s why he wrote Exodus.
Recently read a terrific historical novel about Dona Gracia . A few things coming out now. Glad Edgar mentioned her. I had never heard of her. I don’t think I’m alone. Tired of stories of Jews being passive victims.
@Sebastien Zorn
The idea was to pass through, not to waltz in.
Poland was divided between Russia, Prussia, and Austria.
I do not recall anyone else giving Poland its independence in the 1920s except for the SU.
Of course, to allow Nazi Germany to waltz right back into Polish territory and to become a killing field for 3 million Jews is not unreasonable – after all it was not as emotionally trying to the Poles as. possibly, letting the hated Russians pass through to fight the beloved Germans.
They are copying consciously or subconsciously the old British colonial policy which will make Israel even MORE hated than it already is, if it is at all possible.
Would Israel like it if there was a foreign power setting, let’s say, Israel’s Druze against the state?
Is there someone out there with a brain?!
@Reader Like the SU didn’t? Everybody did.To get Germany to attack the other side and postpone their own inevitable conflict with Germany. But, to expect Poland that had only a few short years before seceded from Russia and fought a war with Russia to allow Russia to waltz right back into their territory with their permission is not reasonable. In fact, that is exactly how the SU reabsorbed the Baltic states that had seceded. Finland also resisted such an “offer you can’t refuse” by Russia and had to fight a war to maintain their independence. The rule for everyone was, “The enemy of my enemy is my “friend.” It was so self-evident at the time that the SU was able to hoodwink the world – with the help of Walter Duranty, Ambassador Davies, and the NY Slimes, that the imaginary Trotskyist underground was in league with Nazi Germany in the show trials.
As for your point that Israel must quit playing up to its enemies, well, that was my point.
On another note, I am about half way through “Russia’s Heros” by Albert Axell which several people here recommended. There was certainly a lot of heroism. Can’t help but think of the Woke redefinition of the word so as to make it meaningless, starting with McCain who won no victories but was just captured, broke under torture, did propaganda for the enemy and then refused early release on a account of being an admiral’s son. His men were probably terrified of him. Why wouldn’t he have been an informer, as well? I was thinking of that today. What if we had two Manchurian candidates facing off against each other. I remember the way McCain opposed the coup against Morsi and supported sanctions against Egypt. Palin was terrific, though. Great supporter of Israel. There was a wonderful Israpundit-like blog at the time with news updated several times a day, very pro-Israel, called, “Jews for Sarah.”
And then there was an Islamist political activist whose son had died as an American soldier in Afghanistan – no details provided – and suddenly we started hearing about “golden star families” being sacred cows when it was pointed out that this guy who spoke at some prominent Dem event was a shariah-supremacist.
And then during the BLM riots when they were tearing down statues of Frederick Douglass, Harriet Tubman and Abraham Lincoln, they erected one to an African-American woman they said had been an unwitting guinea pig in the notorious Tuskegee experiments. So only leftist-canonized victims are heros.
Very different, I must add from the shoes memorial along the banks of the Danube to the many Jews who were shot and pushed into the Danube. The problem in Hungary was that while they distinguished from victims and heros they were still honoring Nazi-collaborator Horthyites. Though, still, under Orban, Hungary is the safest place for Jews in Europe, maybe the last safe place. For now. In the late 19th century, Jews from Russia to Hungary because it was less repressive towards Jews at that time.
All havens are temporary. Israel is our homeland in the end.
@Sebastien Zorn
I WAS surprised at the term “P.L.O” but I saw an article recently (in a subscription mag) which I quoted from and I explained why this tactic may be effective – this is why I responded to it thinking it was recent.
My point is that Israel must quit playing up to its enemies and support their narrative by adopting their terminology and not stating the truth loud and clear, including in the UN (and it is NOT about how we suffer (even though it is also true)).
You should read it because your understanding of it is NOT what the book asserts, also the Munich agreement took place in 1938, and the SU-Germany pact was signed on 08-23-1939.
You really SHOULD read that book.
The last attempt at an agreement with France and Great Britain fell through because Poland wouldn’t allow the SU to set foot on its territory under any circumstances (but Poland was the 1st country to sign a pact with the newly Nazi Germany in 1934 and they were dreaming of joining Germany in order to attack “Russia”).
Anyway, the diplomatic activity around the world at the time was very complicated and in no way limited to one or two agreements.
As far as bombing the tracks to Auschwitz (which the US was in a way better shape and proximity to do than the SU (I am not sure about the GB)), I used to think (a while ago) it was a good idea until I mentioned it to some of my elderly relatives who said: “So what? The Germans would just send them there on foot.”
The SU didn’t think it had prevailed, the very small elite in the government (not even including the military) knew what was coming and tried to push it off (which it did for almost 2 years) because they knew the country wasn’t ready, and they kept it secret from the people who were brainwashed by the government controlled media into thinking that any attack on their country will very soon be fought on the enemy’s territory.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/as-irans-network-of-proxies-withers-israel-has-an-opening-to-revive-its-own/
@Reader That was from 1996 and Arafat lied to Clinton and Barak about the Palestine National Council having revoked that article in the charter. They merely voted to convene to amend the charter but never did. But, so what if they had? I’m answering the question in the title to this article. The other examples I raised as well, HItler, Castro pretending not to be enemies to the West when they were consolidating power. It’s absurd to even be asking the question. These are jihadists whose sponsor is Turkey not Iran. Turkey, which has no nukes but has a stronger army. Erdogan is also promising to destroy Israel. It may not be the time to attack them but I sincerely hope a new concepzia is not forming. Mike Doran thinks Israel should use them as a buffer against Iran. No accommodation should be made with them. And Israel should once again form and protect its own proxies.
Thank you for the book reference. I googled a summary. I already knew that Munich was part of a jockeying for getting Germany to attack the other by France, Britain and Poland, on the one hand, and the Soviet Union which thought it had prevailed with the non-aggression pact which carved up Poland on the other, but to no avail. They should have allied with each other Before the war. There might have been no war and no Holocaust, not that they cared about that. Nobody bombed the tracks to Auschwitz despite having thousands of planes flying over head. Nobody. They decided not to. Churchill, Stalin, Roosevelt. As a member of the British parliament said, the Jews were not an ally, not having a state, or an army.
@Sebastien Zorn
This is merely a new tactic – ”if we act nice, we will be guaranteed a state”.
This is why Israelis must declare the truth about the so-called Palestinian-Israeli conflict instead of complaining about their mistreatment by the Arabs while using the Arab plan-of-phases terminology.
After all, if the only obstacle standing in the way of the 24th Arab state is that the Arabs hate and mistreat the Jews, then, if this obstacle is removed, then this Arab state can be created.
https://www.nytimes.com/1996/04/25/world/plo-ends-call-for-destruction-of-jewish-state.html
Not Communist, Castro Tells U.S. — The Monitor 24 April …
The Catholic News Archive
https://thecatholicnewsarchive.org
Not Communist , Castro Tells U.S.. WASHINGTON (NC) Cuban Premier Fidel Castro has denied that he and his supporters are Communists.
Peace will be preserved and strengthened if the people take the cause of peace into their own hands and defend it to the end. HE “struggle for peace” has always been a cornerstone of Soviet foreign policy. Indeed, the Soviet Union itself rose out of the ashes of World War I under the banner of “Peace to the People!
THE PEACE MOVEMENT & THE SOVIET UNION – CIA