This is the second of three parts of an interview which was published in Manfred Gerstenfeld’s book, Israel’s New Future, in 1994. The book was republished in 2013 by RVP press under thenew title, Israel’s New Future- Revisited). For Part 1 click here.
Part Two
As far as European nationalism goes, Segre says that Jews have been both its promoters and its victims. For those familiar with the history of modern Italy, it is striking that between 1835 and 1870 the Jews were a considerable factor in theItalian Risorgimento – the fight for Italian unity – despite their small numbers.
People who demonstrate, through no fault of their own, the failure of the ideas of others are unlikely to be loved by those whose ideological balloons they have deflated. Segre says that Israel continues the Jew’s traditional role as test case for the failure of European ideas.
Israel is effectively dealing with many problems Europe has difficulty facing, let alone solving. So, for instance, Israel is confronting the challenge of integrating immigrants with reasonable success. Proportionately, it has absorbed more Third World immigrants into a Western-style society than any other country. Europe has a lot of good and bad experience in dealing with immigrants, Segre notes, but it lacks an adequate approach to the integration of non-Europeans.
It is subconsciously difficult for many Europeans to accept that Israel is dealing in a realistic way with the return of the “sacred” into politics, in the ongoing struggle between theocracy and democracy. This is an issue of vital importance for contemporary international society.
The element of the “sacred”, which the French Revolution expelled from European politics, is returning in various ways with a vengeance in Europe. One example is Bosnia, which was part of a territorial national state and now is divided into religious enclaves. Segre expects other examples to follow in due course.
In this respect, Israel is the only country in the Middle East in which democracy and theocracy coexist, so far, without brutal confrontation between them. Yet it seems difficult for the Europeans to appreciate the universal value of an experience, which no Third World country has been able to develop peacefully.
“Even worse,” he adds, “Israel has shown in the 45 years of its history how an underdeveloped country can modernize, whereas many of the former European colonies are collapsing. This is another irritant for European leaders, though this is never explicitly said.”
During its first years of independence, Israel embodied the only viable messianic socialist state in history, based on solidarity and voluntarism, Segre says. There are many examples in European history where attempts to establish such states failed. Among them, Bavaria and Hungary after World War One, and the republican regime in Spain.
“You cannot be liked by the leaders of Europe’s leftist parties while rubbing in their faces successes in fields where they have failed miserably,” he says with a note of irony.
Israel may even solve another problem Europeans are having major problems confronting: the crisis between state and nation. The Italian nation today is experiencing difficulties maintaining an Italian state. The Basque countries do not want to be part of the Spanish nation. We are seeing an ongoing breakdown of the Belgian nation. The United Kingdom is in the process of becoming disunited. The disintegration of Yugoslavia is the worst example, he says, especially considering that the European Community has encouraged its breakup.
“While most European countries cannot solve this kind of problem, in Israel the state may create a nation from what is still a society made up of Jewish tribes,” Segre says. “These ‘tribes’, despite what many like to believe, have little common language or historical experience. Their language, Hebrew, started out mainly as an Esperanto.
“Still, these ‘tribes’ have created a state which most likely is creating an Israeli nation. Paradoxically, much of the credit goes to the Arabs. They have forced Israeli society to maintain unity in the face of hostility. Other societies have experienced external pressure, but they have not been able to translate this into creative internal unity. The case of European states faced by Soviet danger is a case in point. If Israel is not a miraculous example, it is at least spectacular.”
To make matters continuously worse in the eyes of the Europeans, Segre says, Israel is a modern victorious state, whereas they would have been defeated in World War Two by an ideology of darkness had it not been for the military efforts of two nations that the Europeans regard as rather uncivilized – the Americans and the Russians. Modern European historians have begun to realize that the two world wars were, in fact, European wars, which Europeans spread to the rest of the world.
According to a certain type of European historical determinism, a state like Israel, created by Zionism, the only national movement ever branded by the United Nations as racist, should lose wars against the Third World Arabs the same way the Europeans lost their colonies. No Western power has been able to withstand wars of liberation, as the Indian, Indonesian, Algerian and Vietnamese examples seem to prove. In the case of Israel, many Europeans – obviously not all of them – who start with such a false premise are very disappointed if this does not lead to the expected false conclusion.
The prostration of the Europeans before the Arabs – and their oil wealth – in the 1970s and 1980s has blinded them to the dangers of justifying terrorism, mainly of Arab origin. Despite the facts, Israel was blamed for many of the West’s major problems.
The United Nations, in one of its many perverse statements, declared Israel the main danger to world peace and the Middle East conflict the most serious one at the end of the century, Segre recounts. Israel was also blamed by its Western detractors for the entrance of Russian influence in the Middle East and Chinese influence into Africa to balance the success of Israeli cooperation policies.
“Nowadays the castle of mixed European, Arab, communist and United Nations lies has collapsed in an embarrassing way, resulting in a paradox,” Segre says. “Israel, which was accused of threatening peace, is there, for everybody to see, as a major ally in the world fight against Moslem terrorism, a pluralist democracy in the midst of authoritarian, non-democratic, violent regimes.
“The Palestinian problem is certainly a severe test of Israel’s moral and political values,” Segre says. “It has caused many distortions to Jewish ethics and democratic behavior, for which Israel deserves criticism from both friends and foes. But this does not justify those critics who demand that Israel behave as a democracy in peace and not, for example, as a Western democracy at war. Furthermore, European foreign policy is far from ethical, and it is not inspired by purely progressive democratic principles.”
He points to Europe’s ongoing commercial ties with Iran as prime evidence that European governments have not learned much from the past. Although they could easily bring the Iranians to reason by cutting purchases of their oil – and thus strengthening their Arab allies – Segre says, the Europeans have made no such moves.
Bear Klein Said:
You think?
🙂
@ Ted Belman: Curious statement is not just BS but actually has strong hints of stupidity, ignorance, and double standards.
CuriousAmerican Said:
From all of your comments the recurring theme seems to reflect your extreme discomfort that Jews may be better than you gentiles especially those of European extraction.
Depends upon what you consider better. Ethically and Morally Most Jews are better. By % of any given population Jews are way down in all criminal behavior categories. So in this we seem to be better.
Jews more than any other ethnic group contributes more to the benefit of the social and cultural fabric of all societies they inhabit.
Jews promote the concept of rewards based on merit not on entitlements.
As a collective in Israel name any country where it’s war of national liberation was so benign to the enemies she vanquished?
Your goal has always been to make a moral and ethical equivalence between Jews and non Jews especially you christians.
Well there is None. Jews do not murder, rape and pillage in the name of anything not religion and not national aspirations. We do not steal, enslave nor render those we conquer as vassals. We have given such enemies where possible full citizenship and rights as any Jew. Those beyond that possibility are not persecuted unless they threaten the Jewish state and the Jewish people living here. By any definition that is self defense.
Our existence as Jews, as a Jewish independent Jewish sovereignty threaten you and your theology and eschatology . Whether you admit to yourself or not we are living and active proof we Jews are right and you are not…. This must really drive you nuts and if it does then I say Good, I’m am now content and happy.
@ SHmuel HaLevi 2:
Much truth in your statement.
@ CuriousAmerican:
Listen Curious,
Europeans have the most ghastly record against other peoples. Every world war was initiated there. Slavery driven from there. Occupation and rape of most of the world has root there. Genocides and Holocaust, there. Including but not limited having raped “America” away from its Natives most of whom they keep to this day in “Indian Reservations”, large encampments numbering somewhere in the 482 camps. Being that I have some family links with Natives I was invited many time to visit several of the “reservations” and pueblos.
I am also a Citizen with a long career in the Military systems.
And so you finally understand Curious.
The LAND of ISRAEL is Jewish from thousands of years before you assumed the name of
the European “Vespucio” choosing.
Before you spread your stupid aspersions against anyone, it would do you some good to look in fellow.
CuriousAmerican Said:
This is bullshit.
I will tell you what the root of this is, and it is not classic anti-semitism.
For decades, the Jewish people and Israel have been telling the Euros how evil they were, how the Euros never respected minorities, et al.
Now, they look at Israel, and see Israel’s flaws, and have a chance to say: See you are no better than us.
dove Said:
Come on over so I can see it!!! 😉
You can share my Succah any time!!!!!
@ yamit82:
@ dove:
Follow your Karma No matter what!!!!
Chag Sukkot Sameach
We are not suppose to remain as Jews….we are suppose to be catholic or christian or face death. Death can come in many forms…
True story…. was being harassed and told a cop that I was moving to Israel some day. He said ‘Israel? Why Israel? That’s the last place you should be!! Are you nuts? Given your history with your family? That was about 12 years ago. I already felt then that I was being called to return….it’s just taking awhile to get there.
Eric R. Said:
That seems to have the ring of Truth.
All European Life Died In Auschwitz
“What a terrible mistake was made by miserable Europe”
In Hebrew we say Mida k’neged Mida (Measure for Measure)
The problem that the filthy, degenerate, genocidal, morally depraved Europeans have with us Jews is that we are alive.
Period.
Filthy scumbag savage Euronazis. Always have been, always will be. I will be laughing my ass off when they are enslaved by the Muslims that they love so f***ing much.
For all I care, very little at that, if the whole of that pestilent nest of thieves of resources, slavemongers, usurpers of other people’s lands and rights, mass murdering beasts all over the world, go down completely, I’ll enjoy that. Every major war started in that hell hole.