Netanyahu calls on the world to pressure the PA to recognize Israel as a Jewish state
Which is another way of affirming that he is ready to accept the Kerry Framework which is based on ’67 lines plus swaps and the uprooting of 150,000 Jews.
He should be focussed on rejecting the Kerry Framework.
Its crystal clear that he intends accepting it with or without meaningless reservations. And he wouldn’t accept it without the support of Lieberman and Yaalon.
Such a deal would mean abandoning Ariel and Maaleh Adumin. How do I know? Because once you are evacuating over 100,000 Jews, those communities must be included.
Today, PM: Without recognition, there will be no peace deal
A glimmer of hope. Unfortunately we are left to depend on Abbas.
Yamit
I do not want to haveto produce stuff. If I say you said something then you said it. If you lie about what you said then I am too busy to go back and treat this as an academic exercise because I do not have the time
Just this time. I said remove this Government and I suggested how.
You came back immediately opposing my line
(You replied to my detailed posts this on https://www.israpundit.org/archives/63593692/comment-page-1#comments)
Likud and Bennett have the power to bring down this government this very morning. You oppose that in the above.
If this government is not brought down then it contiues to plot against the Jews the way that Sharon did in 2005
You say clearly in the above for Bennett to remain to prop up Netanyahu because that is ALL he is doing
Please do not mess me (and others) on this site about. The problem is time. Even this took me time to look up and put down on paper what you said, rather than trusting that I was not lying.
I do not want to have anything more to do with you Yamit and since you are likely to remain on Israpundit I will not be here again
So I will let you continue with your “friggin” about (Irish curse) but I will not be there.
@ bernard ross:
It’s always been an Israeli demand along with the demand to abrogate the PLO covenant calling for the destruction of Israel.
@ bernard ross:
It should have been the first issue raised not the last as it goes to the heart of the conflict. But it better not be a simple pronouncement. It would have to be established by generations of practice. Of course it won’t and therefor its an exercise in futility. Far less intractable conflicts in the past have warranted Transfer as the only remedy. Alas – unthinkable! for the Jewish state. But no peace will come till then. Kahane was right and will be vindicated in the end.
the phoenix Said:
Jews are tired of fighting and living in ghettos. Europe is trying to turn Israel into the world’s Jewish ghetto. the Jews are beaten, abused, swindled, libeled, tortured and slaughtered without shame. This is how a victim of abuse responds. They appear to see no other way; the scare campaign works. The campaign of israel’s leaders to keep jewish children in ignorance works.
When Kerry threaten’s it should not be taken lightly. The US has armed and had muslim jihadis do their bidding, through the saudis, since at least the 1980’s in Afghanistan and have done the same now in Syria. Muslim mercenaries are assembled all around Israel. If Obama wants Israel attacked by muslim mercenaries it would not be unknown for them to have it arranged. Kerry’s threat might be literal and direct.
Ted Belman Said:
you said that before BUT: did they conclude that before BB began his mantra or afterwards? was this “recognition” discussed prior to BB making it his priority? How did this become the top priority issue?
@ Ted Belman:
Ted, if I believed in democracy as a meaningful political system for the Jewish nation and the Jewish state, then I would indeed care what the public opinion polls of Israel has to say about peace and war. But inasmuch as I believe in no such thing, then I regard all that as a self-imposed impediment against which Jewish nationalism must struggle. So, exactly as one of the great late 19th century American monopoly capitalists said “the public be damned”, I think these public opinion polls are good only for ass-wipe.
Arnold Harris
Mount Horeb WI
@ bernard ross:The value of it has been widely debated in Israel. Israelis have concluded that it is necessary.
@ bernard ross:
Dear mr Ross,
Last week I spoke to a friend in tel aviv. It ‘s been a while that we were not in touch. After the mandatory ‘how’s your wife how are the kids how are the cats’ we dove into today’s news, and I really wanted to know how things are perceived and the general feeling.
Well,
And you must understand, the guy is not a ‘peace now! ‘ nutcase, BUT he was speaking practically all the american talking points:
“Where would we be without our ‘friend’ the us?”
“Do you even know what would be the extent of the boycott?”
“We are just tired of fighting…. So just give them and get it over with”…..
After the awkward silence that followed, I proceeded to try and counter this garbage with facts and figures learnt right here on ip.
He sounded surprised, he obviously realized I did not just make it up… But inevitably he concluded with YEAH BUT you live there and we are here….
While that statement is true, it does not make untrue what I just told him
Ted Belman Said:
but did Israelis want that recognition before BB made it his mantra or are they now repeating his mantra back to him like a parrot. All propagandists know that repeating a lie often enough turns it into the truth.
Given the Arabs in general and fakestinians in particular penchant for making deliberately untruthful statements, agreements, treaties, promises and undertakings, all sanctioned as taquia (sic) under Muslim doctrine, recognition of Israel as the nation of the Jewish people would require, at a minimum the following to two measures:
1. Their relinquishment of the their Muslim faith and practice;
2. 2 – 3 generations of denatzification by teaching such recognition and tolerance;
Anything less is utterly meaningless.
@ bernard ross:
Your comments are too extensive for me to deal with. Polls show that Israelis want the recognition.
That aside either Bibi knew when he made recognition a stipulation, that the Arabs would never agree to it. Thus he could agree to everything else knowing he wouldn’t be called on it. I don’t accept this reasoning. In one of my posts I asked why we were getting into all this talk about security because there was no point to it unless the 67 lines plus swaps were agreed to. The conclusion I came to was that 67 lines plus swaps was agreed to. And so it would appear.
Felix Quigley Said:
this is how I believe BB, and the like, see it:
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4483892,00.html
Lots of money, oodles of “recognition”, end of sanction threats,etc. springing from arab league peace deal.
I believe that BB has been working with this “relationship” from before the gaza cease fire and before the staged Faux pal state.
Do i agree with that perspective? No.
The jewish land should not be for sale.
there are many associated risks. If pal refugees are admitted to the west bank from other nations they would settle the vacant lands of area C and bring their radical UNRWA training with them.
http://www.meforum.org/3735/palestine-peace-bomb
Felix Quigley Said:
My suspicion is that jews are so brainwashed and ignorant of Jewish rights that a referendum or election on BB’s plan will succeed in its’ approval.
Other than the right wing of likud and BY it appears to me that the rest of Israel would be satisfied with the following:
1-giving up all but the major settlement blocks.
2-relinquishing the Jordan valley settlers within 5-10 years but maintaining an IDF security presence for 10 years or longer. the settlers will not be uprooted or abandoned, as per BB claims, but “given a choice” to leave under good incentives or to remain with Pal citizenship.
3-Allowing a scenario whereby a portion of Jerusalem is designated to the pals for a “capital” this may be similar to a diplomatic compound. this is a hazy area that likely would be left to last along with the land swaps. there already is foreign sovereignty of Jordan over the Mount. it is possible that a jordan pal confed ensues after a few years and this Jordan sovereignty is expanded. I do not know but I have a feeling they will come up with something to make it happen on paper.
To be clear, what I am writing is not what I advocate for Israel but rather what it appears to me that they will do.
Felix Quigley Said:
I agree with this. This “recognition” has become the prime goal for BB and if that goal is achieved(by diplomatic doublespeak) he can then claim a victory while giving away land. The same with the the security issue: along with the “recognition” this might be shown to be achievable without settlers permanently remaining in the Jordan valley. all sorts of defense experts would be trotted out to validate such a plan. Both “recognition” and “security” are two issue being given priority over the Jewish rights to YS. In so doing BB is accommodating, and preparing, the Israeli public to the idea that land is not an issue, after all there is never a claim asserted to the right of israel to YS land by the GOI.
My understanding of “the deal” is that those communities will remain under Israeli sovereignty in exchange for negotiated land swaps. Also, that the IDF will remain in the JOrdan valley for 5-10 years and during that time the settlers will have a choice to leave or take Pal citizenship. IN that way BB can claim that he neither uprooted communities nor abandoned them. I expect that the Jordan Valley communities and other non major block communities will be given incentives to move. Jerusalem is a vague area but my understanding is that they seek to give something in Jerusalem for a pal “capital”. Perhaps it will be similar to a diplomatic compound whereby the capital remains under Israeli control but the compound is under the sovereignty of others. My understanding is that Jerusalemites in transferred areas would be offered dual citizenship.
This is the plan I read about around a year ago, from a pal source I have been unable to remember or find, around the same time as the re-mooted Jordan Pal confederation. The idea was that the final security arrangements would be negotiated with Jordan, as the Pal rep after a confederation,under the terms of the existing Jordan Israel treaty. The plan I read then appears to be almost exactly the same as the one unfolding now(or being released by trial balloon).
It is due to this prior plan, and my belief that there are regional covert alliances(although becoming increasingly overt), that I believe that the outcome of these talks has been negotiated and pre agreed upon prior to the advent of these talks. I see 2 basic outcomes for these talks, both pre agreed.
1- the talks may simply be a fig leaf stall to allow Iran negotiations and the sunni shia proxy wars to proceed without the interference of the Israel Pal issue allowing the GCC to recruit and focus there mercenaries on Irans proxies. In that case the I expect the outcome would be a general moving of resolution down the road with the requisite payments for sitting down to each player(abbas gets prisoners and BB gets a stall and relative calm resulting from GCC understandings)
2- The general final deal is already agreed and the current talks and drama are a dog and pony show meant to unfold the deal slowly and accommodate the jewish and arab street.
If the outcome, under either scenario of stalling or actual agreement, has been already agreed then the drama is FALSE and staged for political purposes of the individual players: everyone gets to look like they are fighting for their constituency.
I tend towards the view that both 1 & 2 may be in play. The talks will be extended just as the Iran negotiations are being extended. Therefore, I believe the GCC Israel relationship is in play.
I have been saying for a long time that this relationship was responsible for the strange Gaza cease fire. for the first time I see it in print from a source other than myself.
I do not agree with all the details of the article but I beleive the agreements were in place. In fact, I go a step further to postulate that Israel targeted Iranian linked Hamas and Jihadi elements in collaboration with the GCC who wanted to wipe out the Iranian links thus relieving the GCC influenced hamas constituents of the burden. It is interesting to note that the leashing of Hamas began under Morsi and has since intensified under Sisi. The US, Israel, Egypt and Qatar(for the sunni GCC)made the agreement in relation to the regional master plan. I beleive that the agreements remain in place and that the drama of Obama’s withdrawal and “switches” are an election tactic to distance his admin from the disclosures at Benghazi: that the US was arming and training al qaeda mercenaries in collaboration with the sunni GCC in Syria. Obama is re inventing himself again as the anti war president, WITHOUT links to GCC paid mercenaries, for the mid term election and to avoid impeachment or prosecution. the goals of the “regional plan” are still in play and Obama’s disconnect with Egypt and the saudis are not hampering those goals because US direct military involvement is not contemplated or necessary to the goals. Syria has and continues being armed by the GCC and Obama is now talking about the failure of the Syria deal and arming the “non AQ jihadis(LOL)”. Unless we know the “real” goals of the Syrian and Iranian conflicts we cannot be sure of what they are trying to accomplish, first in Syria. I do not believe it has anything to do with “human rights and freedoms”.
Here is one goal of the regional plan that BB is contemplating:
reggarding the deposing of Morsi: I believe that he was deposed for not being a team player and/or for maintaining iranian contacts in betrayal of the GCC. I even consider the possibility that the Obama Egypt GCC “quarrel” may be a red herring for the following reasons:
1-the plan of leashing hamas started with Morsi and included the US: this plan has intensified
2- Obama has avoided the criticism of supporting a coup by criticizing Egypt and withholding some funds. However, this is meaningless as the GCC has stepped in to fill the gap. this could be part of an agreed scenario.
3- Obama’s disconnect from Sisi has helped Sisi’s credibility and his enormous “victory” and Obama cannot be said to have any connection to it.
4- The benghazi attack may have had Morsi connections whereby he was involved in an attempt to kidnap Stevens to create a hostage swap for the blind sheik. this could have been an orchestrated false flag or stevens assasination removed the link of Hillary to the AQ arming operation. Al Shater, Morsi’s right hand man, threatened that he had too much on Obama. He and Morsi are now silenced in jail. I beleive that the GCC will remove the leadership of the too “independent” MB and absorb the rank and file into the salafis or reconstitute a new GCC controlled MB leadership in time.
when I said that the Syrian arab spring was a GCC financed operation I was condemned by a poster here as a crazy conspiracy theorist. However, that is showing to be true. Aaron Klein has been a reliable source on this issue.
http://kleinonline.wnd.com/2014/01/27/confirmed-egyptians-participated-in-benghazi-attack-u-s-government-failed-to-release-key-details-of-cairo-militia/
@ Felix Quigley:
Give me the quote or link to the quote of mine where I said what you attribute to me.
I agree with you: “I just cannot understand what he said to me.”
Or you are libeling me for your own nefarious purposes. 😛
No retreat Yamit!
Advance to the Jewish state where Jews live alone unmolested by Antisemites!
http://4international.me/2014/02/04/the-future-of-israel-is-on-a-knife-edge-force-bennett-from-coalition-now/
Ted you are so right on this. I have suggested that all pressure should come on to Naftali Bennett, and also what role can Feiglin play in this in mobilising Likud to expel Netanyahu. I say forcé a general election asap to fight it on this very issue, to raise this issue in front of the great American people. But Yamit on this very site just yesterday has disagreed with me by saying that such a campaign could lead to worse. Strange coming from a person who has no love for Netanyahu.
I cannot see how a general election campaign fought on these issues can lose.
I do not surrender my individual views but I would join with anybody on the basis of such a campaign
You have in the above hit the nail on the head. This business of the Arabs accepting Israel etc, that is rubbish because they can make a statement one day and deny it the next as they have done innumerable times. But as you say it is worse tan rubbish, it is the cover for Netanyahu pulling the Jews out of Judea.
Netanyahu sees that as doable. There is no lengths that he will not go to.
The key for all of these tyrants as it was in Kosovo is that NATO will be the forcé. Abbas said it yesterday too.
In their mind is…do the deal, introduce NATO, leave Jews as sitting ducks on the basis that NATO will protect them. Then follows the ethnic cleansing as happened when the KLA moved in BEHIND NATO, literally behind NATO and the UN to ethnicly cleanse Kosovo of Serbs Gypsies and Jews
THAT Ted is what they have in mind
Yamit is wrong. Every minute this government coalition stands is a moment deeper into peril for all of Israel.
This is a terrible retreat made yesterday by Yamit. I just cannot understand what he said to me. After campaigning so long against Netanyahu now at the crucial momento he supports keeping him in power. I have been surprised by many things on Israpundit but that surprises me more than anything ever in the past.