By Ted Belman
US official says ‘Israel must show Arab public it’s serious about peace’
This is a euphemism for must agree to share Jerusalem, to stop building settlements and to accept borders based on ’67 lines plus swaps. No thanks.
As long as Israel refrains from doing so, it can fairly be said that Israel is not interested in peace on those terms. But she is interested in peace on her terms namely she gets to keep Jerusalem, the settlements and a military presence in Judea and Samaria inter alia.
@ yamit82:
Yamit please excuse my spelling et al spent twohours with the Dentist and am full of drugs. Jacob and Easau were old men the fire of anger had gone, time to put it aside, anger an war is a young mans game. They camped together and left one another in peace. Did G_d creat evil, yes because HE created everything. We were left with the choise. My Evengelical friend and I had that same arguement about the para-normal, if G-d created everything nothing not even ghost and demons can outside creation.
I find it a window into your personality that you like “The Wild Bunch”, my favorite is “The Outlaw Josie Wales”.
Honey Bee Said:
http://esseragaroth.blogspot.co.il/2010/11/kiss-of-esau.html
In Genesis 33:4, the Torah tells us about a kiss: after thirty-four years in which Jacob had fled his brother’s wrath, and in which Esau had never ceased plotting to kill him, Esau has a change of heart. Seeing Jacob approach, Esau runs to him, embraces him, and kisses him.
But the word vayishakeihu, “and he kissed him,” has a line of dots above it, which is the Torah’s way of telling us that this was not a normal kiss. What was abnormal about this kiss? The Midrash cites two interpretations. One is that the Torah is telling us that it was not a true kiss — Esau was really trying to kill Jacob by biting his throat. The other interpretation is that Esau kissed Jacob with all his heart — that’s what was abnormal about the kiss, since “we know that it is a cardinal law of reality that Esau hates Jacob.”
Either way you look at it, the bottom line is that Esau hates Jacob. No matter what Jacob does, Esau hates him. If Jacob appeases him, gives him gifts, acts towards him like the brother he is, Esau hates him even more. But why?
Why does Esau hate Jacob? But first we should ask: Why does Esau exist at all? Why is there evil in our world? Why is there hatred and darkness? What would be wrong with a world consisting only of goodness, love and light?
Evil exists because it is so much more powerful than good. Is there a lover in the world who loves with the intensity that a hater hates? Is there a light as bright as darkness is black? Has there ever been an act of kindness unleashed with the force and vigor contained in an act of cruelty?
That is why, say the Kabbalists, G-d created evil.
@ Honey Bee:
Loved the song. I remembered it from my favorite movie Here.
I have a rendition by Placido Domingo somewhere and I have heard Nana Mouskouri sing it beautifully as well here in Tel Aviv.
If you want the full Lyrics see here
@ yamit82:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztTF9r2HnqA This is beautiful
@ yamit82:
Dear Heart,one of the best parts of Jacob’s story is when he and Easau are old men Easau forgives him and the camp together in friendship. Must I intruct the instructor.
@ dionissis mitropoulos:
The Greeks are not afraid of offending Jews ,their are afraid of offending American tourist.
@ yamit82:
I am glad to discover I am not the only one who thought very little of Begium. Old West Shereifs,Marshalls and Bounty Hunters took outlaw’s ears too. Jules of Julesberg,Co nailed their ears to his office door as a warning. And they wore and still wear David’s star for shield.
Yamit my reply is in moderation
@ Yamit
yamit82 Said:
Yes, the Greek civil authorities and society and the public are going to use their reaction to whitewash their own anti-Semitism, something like “of course we are not anti-Semites, we did condemn the football incident” and then they will keep on supporting the Arabs.
The National Greek Football Federation (EPO, the Greek initials) had no choice but immediately ban the Nazi saluter from the national team because FIFA takes a hard line towards such behavior of football players, and the EPO President always need to be on the right side of FIFA for reasons irrelevant to football as a game. The reason is that the Greek governments has for long time wished to have more say in football affairs. If this happened, it would mean that some of the power of the occasional EPO president would be diminished, and no EPO president would gladly relinquish power. And here is were FIFA comes into play. FIFA has the power to not allow the Greek National team of football to participate in its competitions and the power to not allow the Greek clubs from participating in UEFA’s competitions. The only excuse FIFA needs is just a complaint from EPO that the state is interfering with the internal affairs of Greek football. Now, this is something that has happened in the past, i.e. EPO complained to FIFA for the Greek state interventions, and FIFA obliged by threatening the Greek government with exclusion of Greek clubs from international competitions. The Greek governmment had to back off because, if it didn’t, then the Greek public would be outraged for not being able to watch the national team and the popular football clubs in the international football competitions, and this would mean less votes for the government in the next elections. What’s in it for FIFA in helping the president of EPO? His vote in the next FIFA elections.
@ dionissis mitropoulos:
Seems to me the Greek reaction to the kid’s gesture whether it was intended or innocent depends if he has expressed Nazi sympathies off the football pitch. Are any of his tatoos NAZI related etc. That said Greek authorities who support Hamas and Hezbollah even indirectly are as if not more guilty than the Greek young footballer, not a little hypocrisy.
These are the Arabs the Greeks support
https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSsYmJFrnhLWwnk-7XH8qR4KzOL5IUipFI30yaEbLeeIpcyHd6JqQ
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-36ZZ3hHiIuE/UHLAlDrpCxI/AAAAAAAAMsM/yJ05qyrp-vo/s1600/hezbola-suple.jpg
@ dionissis mitropoulos:
Seems to me the Greek reaction to the kid’s gesture whether t was intended or innocent depends if he has expressed Nazi sympathies off the football pitch. Are any of his taboos NAZI related etc. That said Greek authorities who support Hamas and Hezbollah even indirectly areas if not more guilty than the Greek young footballer, not a liit hypocracy.
There are the Arabs the Greeks support https://www.google.co.il/search?hl=en&site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1280&bih=760&q=hamas+salute&oq=hamas+salute&gs_l=img.12…2593.7866.0.11252.12.9.0.3.3.0.326.1470.0j7j1j1.9.0…0.0…1ac.1.6.img.gJMSFRF-_pU
Honey Bee Said:
Sounds very peaceful, picturesque and pastoral.
Have a wonderful day yourself HB.
This happened yesterday:
Here are two videos of the salute :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2GnizwiNSg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4m8YBcFo1o
Hey, i have been telling you about Greeks.
@ yamit82:
That says it all!!!!!!!!!!!! the yard is full of deer its dry so they are eating all our bushes or what bushes we have. C’boy keeps a little pool of water for them and we have no dogs so they take the over. Hoe your day was Good.
Honey Bee Said:
“Rosebud”
@ yamit82:
Enlighten us in 100 words or less!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ted my comment to curious in moderation.
CuriousAmerican Said:
Israel crack? Before that happens America will be a footnote in history. I see no reason why Israel cannot maintain the current status quo for another 500 years if that’s what it takes.
Half the Germans fled German militarism? Back that up with fact!!!
We are not Germans although some are but we are fast learners and know how to apply organized brutality against mortal enemies and sometimes to my sorrow against friends. I have never heard of an Arab who was not broken by our Shin Bet, have you? Jews invented the art of Assassination, of airplane hijacking, drone warfare. In terms of sheer brutality and the application of state power to that end the German had nothing on the Russians, Americans and the British. How many millions did the French kill in Algeria and Indo-China? The British in the Chinese opium wars and India? America in all her wars and no country has been involved in more years of war than America in the last 100 years or so.
The Germans were no more brutal than any of their contemporaries maybe on examination even less so.
No I don’t speak from pride of power I am even critical that we do not employ even a fraction of our power and make unnecessary concessions that weaken and even kill us for fear of wielding Power we possess. For the first time in Jewish History the Jews have the power but act like rabbits afraid of our shadow. I could end our regional conflict in a few weeks and can back it up with the matches of world ending conflagration if we are pushed too far or threatened from without.
The Arabs are quite stupid but smart enough to get the message and choose to live rather than die if there were a credible threat against them that was real and believed. They will go without many having to die, they aren’t that stupid. Nobody will come to their aid if they believe we are totally serious and will not be deterred by empty threats and crocodile tears by you bleeding hearts. The world is tired of the Palis and are beginning to divest from them by deeds if not rhetoric.
The hatred is theologically based . It is an immutable law “Esau hates Jacob”.
Why don’t you enlighten us?
CuriousAmerican Said:
Actually it does matter on a practical level, the main problem that the Jew and Israel has is the employment of the double standard by their enemies. Now that Israel is becoming more independent, in order to create a new paradigm which repudiates jew killing and swindling, it is increasingly important to repudiate anything that smacks of a double standard. Of great importance is”
1- the still unaddressed ethnic cleansing of Jews from the arab nations AFTER the advent of the Geneva conventions. The world has created a double standard by discussing the pal refugee problem and ignoring the jewish refugee problem. The solution is for Israel and the Jews to refuse discussion of this arab refugee problem until damage is mitigated and justice restored to the Jewish refugees and/or the land of Israel
2- The reneged global agreements which legally bound the major nations to “encourage the settlement of jews west of the jordan river”. This must re instituted. This jewish settlement right can only be guaranteed by the state of Israel maintaining sovereignty over YS. The arabs, the UN and world institutions have already demonstrated they will sabotage this right. The presence of the currently JEW FREE arab areas in all the former mandate territory of gaza, jordan and PA west bank attest to the impossibility of fulfilling Jewish settlement rights under the control of any of the 3rd parties.
3- The acceptance of the jewish ethnic cleansing, the JEW FREE arab areas have created a precedent for arab transfer. It is important to act on this precedent so as to discourage the continuance of double standards against the Jews. The Jews must stop allowing these swindling double standards and must seek to restore justice and mitigate damage unilaterally if necessary. The only reason for not doing this currently would be a lack of power at this moment. There is no legal or moral basis to expect the Jews to accept the results of past and present swindling, terror and sabotage.
Those who cajole the jews to accept the double standards are termites attempting to weaken the jews from the inside, they have an unacknowledged and unexpressed agenda. their motives are as clear as the emperors clothes.
CuriousAmerican Said:
on the contrary, this is a doable, moral and legal solution which would precipitate a permanent solution based in the reality of the realization that the arabs will not agree to an Israel and they will support no other solution, including yours, until the problem and solution are separated from Israel. Once you can imagine the transfers in tent cities on the other side of the 3 hostile borders you can then see that the only immediate recourse is to feed, clothe and shelter them and the infrastructure is already in place. the winding down of the UNHRWA and foreign aid agencies in Israel would be automatic if no one is there to serve. These monies and personnel would merely be transferred to expand the existing agencies abroad. There would be lots of noise but this condemnation is already a permanent fixture. No one other than those who are already in hostility would go to war with an even stronger Israel. No more foreign filming of Israel abusing pals, etc. The pals would either be integrated where they are, become a destabilizing force on the enemies or be dealt with as all other past refugees. Israels problems would be to deal with sanctions, which may come anyway. This would be a regional upheaval, but these are already taking place in the arab countries. the presence of the pals in the lands of the enemies has weakened those enemies.
CuriousAmerican Said:
Your “solution” is not a solution because the same obstructions, the arab culture, obtains. You would have to convince the arabs as a collective to accept this solution, which they would not(for the same reasons they do not now accept any agreements) Your “solution” can be a component of a larger solution but cannot stand alone. Under my solution Part of your solution can work because it would not be the Jews paying. The arabs and gentile have the money which is continually pouring through UNRWA and terror. Once the arabs are outside of Israel there can be a permanent solution through your emigration tactic which can work because they would not be accepting money from Jews and they would have no other choice. The error of you logic is exactly the main fixation of your “solution”: that it is the Jews who should pay. This is not only an error in principle but an error in judgement. The arabs might accept the money from the UNRWA and other arabs, to leave, but not from the Jews. Furthermore, the world and arabs will not fund it unless Israel is separated from the problem of their refugee status. This can only be done by separating them from israel: transfer. They will only fund this when there is no other choice and if the arabs are outside of Israel then there will be no choice. If one starts to evaluate the details of my solution one can see that it does not have to end negatively and removing Israel from the solution and problem can cause resources to flow to where they should.
I think all of this is a red herring, on your part, and your obsession with Jews paying has more to do with what you do not say here.
@ raymondf:
I agree, peace cannot be negocilated,it can only be won!!!!!!!
@ Yidvocate:
Yidvocate, I’m glad to see someone who understands that VICTORY is PEACE. Imagine how World War II would have ended if the Allies just rolled over and acceded to Axis demands in the interest of “fairness?”
Five times Israel has defeated her enemies in wars brought on by those enemies, but there is no peace because there was virtually no follow-through. Annexing East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights was a start, but only a start. Ceding Jewish presence in Gaza was very foolish and ill-conceived.
The Arabs did not so much as agree, but had the terms dictated to them. All real issues like water, settlements, were forbidden to be addressed.
Oslo may have been foolish for the Israelis; but it was NOT generous.
Some Palestinians say Arafat should have walked out. A real Arab leader might have. But men of character are rare among Arabs. Very rare. He may have been blackmailed.
That being said: No nation can keep up a militaristic war footing for long. It destroys countries. Sooner or later, Sparta will fall. In fact the Spartans did fall, at the Battle of Leuctra when the Thebans hit them with an echelon formation.
Sparta started to sink after that.
The ONLY Nation/Peope who have taken to a militaristic culture and survived more than a century under it were the Germans. Is that your model?
Pay the Arabs to leave.
THEY DON’T DESERVE IT
Doesn’t matter. Pay them to leave.
THEY WON’T GO
Enough will. First 10% the 15% then it will snowball.
LET THE GENTILES PAY
We are broke. Israel may be the only Western country not in economic crisis.
WHY SHOULD JEWS PAY FOR THE OWN LAND?
Because you will pay in blood or money. They do not mind dying. You do.
Pay them to leave!
WE CAN KEEP THIS UP FOREVER.
No you can’t. You are not Germans. Systematized brutality is foreign to your nature. Already you have so many Jews leaving to the West that Israel had to put commercials on TV asking them to come back.
And even with the Germans … half of the Germans fled to America, and Canada, and South America to get away from the militarism.
Sooner or later, Israel will crack.
You speak from a pride of power. I could give you biblical (Jewish and Christian) reasons why this is unwise.
What is being generated is a swamp of hatred that will not be easily tamed.
PAY THEM TO LEAVE.
Calling them maggots (as Yamit does) or Musloids (as others here do) will not help the situation.
Do what MK Feiglin suggested and Pay them to leave.
CuriousAmerican Said:
Yes it can.
The Arabs agreed to all the terms of “martial law” when they signed Oslo. It is entirely in their hands to make concessions in order to end the “occupation”. Bottom line is, they don’t want peace on our terms and we don’t want peace on their terms. We have no obligation to accept their terms.
CuriousAmerican Said:
Frankly and personally I don’t give a rats behind what those maggots think. Since you apparently do care; you deal with them. Pay them to save their lives, then make good little Youshka lovers out of them if you can.
CuriousAmerican Said:
rubbish, the pal street sees all of Israel as eroding their state. No one wants a resolution now in leadership. abbas cannot sign an agreement, they would have to hold elections, hamas would win, he would be assasinatied for giving israel anything, some sort of satisfying the street keeps him alive for his retirement in jordan. Hamas is more interested in political control of west bank and building an economy than fighting Israel. qatar and egypt have put hamas under the reigns as qatar will now pour big money into gaza. I think that the pals will confed with jordan which will enable them to take less land. Meshaal will become pres of PLO. within this scenario may come the opportunity for your proposal but it will be tha arabs who pay. Not for love of Israel but to strengthen the GCC, get a pipline through med to sunni syria to saudi, develop shale gas, The shia iran threat is bigger to them than israel. I think the israeli scapegoat is no longer working for them and prevents them from dealing with more important issues than the pals. the big question is who will be sovereign in YS: autonomy or state.
See 1 Samuel 18:27 jews for judaismCuriousAmerican Said:
Indians took scalps David ears.
Sounds like it’s The Messiah Ben Yosef and not Ben David? What it surely can’t be is your deity.
What would have happened if all of the Canaanite peoples had been as peaceful and as submissive towards the Hebrews as the Gibeonites? Putting aside the fact that the Hebrews were tricked into making their treaty with the Gibeonites, isn’t it likely that the Hebrews, when faced with a peaceful and submissive native population, would have, in any case, found it morally difficult to treat this population as harshly as G-d had so commanded — namely, not to make any alliances with them, but rather, without pity, to expel and annihilate them from the Land? Despite the fact that G-d’s Commandments were not made conditional upon the military posture of the Canaanite peoples towards the returning Hebrews, the answer to this question is in the affirmative. As is revealed in the Hebrew Bible: “Joshua waged war with all of these [Canaanite] kings for a long time. There was not a city that made peace with the Children of Israel except for the Hivvite inhabitants of Gibeon; they [the Hebrews] took everything in battle. For it was from HaShem, to harden their [the Canaanite nations’] hearts towards battle against Israel, in order to destroy them [the Canaanite nations] — that they not find favor [with the Hebrews] — so that they would be extirpated [by the Hebrews], as HaShem had commanded Moses.” (Joshua 11:18-20). So it is with the “Palestinian” Canaanites. G-d has stiffened their resolve — even against a militarily superior Israel — and He has permitted them to perpetrate the most heinous atrocities against the Jewish people only so that when the Messiah — as a component part of the War of Gog and Magog — finally comes to expel and to destroy them, (most of) Israel will have, at that time, no moral qualms about complying with G-d’s Commandments which, at this time, so shock the mores and sensibilities of modern Jewish civilization.
It is noteworthy that, although the belligerence of the ancient Canaanite nations forced the Hebrews to take aggressive counter-measures against them, thereby resulting in large-scale expulsions and annihilations of these nations, after the latter were defeated, the Hebrews permitted their irredentist and revanchist remnants to continue living and increasing in the Land of Israel in defiance of G-d’s Commandments (See Judges 1:1-36). That denouement constitutes an uncannily accurate portent concerning the evolution of the status of the 1948 “Palestinian” Canaanites. For, during modern Israel’s 1948 War of Independence, approximately 600,000 hostile Arabs (who actively participated in the War to annihilate Israel) fled or were expelled from the Jewish State. However, after Israel defeated their allied multi-nation Arab invasion force, approximately 150,000 Arabs (who were just as hostile, but who did not actively participate in the War) were allowed to remain, and were thereafter rewarded with citizenship and national voting rights in the Jewish State. From that 150,000 (plus another 100,000 that Israel permitted to return in the ensuing decades), modern Israel’s irredentist and revanchist Arab citizenry has grown to approximately 1,200,000.
Had Noah permitted those from the outside World to enter the Ark, he would have suffered G-d’s Wrath for rebelling against His Authority. Unfortunately, the leaders of modern Israel who, due to their Yirat HaGoyim (Fear of the Nations) rather than Yirat Elokim (Fear of Heaven), have stubbornly refused to remove the Arabs from the Land are now responsible for the prophetic consequences of ignoring G-d’s Strict Warning — (“But if you do not drive out the inhabitants of the Land before you, those of them whom you leave shall be pins in your eyes and thorns in your sides, and they will harass you upon the Land in which you dwell. And it shall be that what I had meant to do to them, I shall do to you.”) — which defiance will continue to result in the horrific suffering of their Jewish brethren at the hands of the “Palestinian” Canaanites (until the advent of the messianic War of Gog and Magog when G-d’s Name will be sanctified, not only through Israel’s defeat of the gentile nations, but also through the expulsion and destruction, with limited exceptions, of the Arab and other gentile inhabitants of the Land). For just as the Ark completely separated Good from Evil, the biblical Land of Israel was mandated, and the modern State of Israel is mandated, to do the same. Clearly, from the perspective of Space, the State of Israel is the contemporary counterpart to Noah’s Ark.
Why am I not convinced???
Even though you have the right to build, the Palestinians see it as eroding their state. There is no appearance of progress – at least from their point of view – any more.
After 46 years, they know a stalling tactic – which even if it is used for a good cause, is still stalling.
Pay them to leave.
CuriousAmerican Said:
anything based on agreement is delusional, my option 3 requires no agreements and logistically doable. Only Jewish acceptance of double standards stands in the way. Neither your option nor mine is likely in the near future and variations of both may become more likely in the future. In the near time some sort of preservation of the status quo, with the appearance of progress, is the likely development. eg the pal state, to them, appears to be progress.
Then pay them to leave.
Cheaper than war.
Will NOT be as cheap as you think. Hamas has chemical weapons. Iron Dome is not perfect.
You make the offer to individuals discretely.
Dr. Martin Sherman of Tel Aviv calls this the atomization of the process. You work around the Arab leadership.
You are talking genocide, here.
He shall wash his feet in the blood of the Wicked is a prophetic reference to the Messiah. I hope this is not a practice you advocate; for you might go to the next step and start taking the foreskins of dead Palestinians. (See 1 Samuel 18:27)
I am just trying to avoid bloodshed here. Your comment was uncalled for.
CuriousAmerican Said:
iit iss unrealistic, even if the jews agreed to pay the arab leadership would prevent its acceptance.
CuriousAmerican Said:
The only Peace that has any meaning is a Peace derived from the total destruction of ones mortal enemies. Since our conflict and dispute is theologically based and existential and not territorial it can only be resolved when the existential threat is totally eliminated.
“They [Children of Israel] provoked Me with a non-god, angered Me with their vanities; so shall I provoke them with a non-people, with a vile nation shall I anger them.” (Deuteronomy 32:21)
“The righteous man shall rejoice when he sees Vengeance. He shall wash his feet in the blood of the Wicked. And Mankind shall say, ‘Truly there is a reward for the Righteous. Truly there is a God Who judges on Earth.'” (Psalms 58:11-12)
For you Curious:
“Woe unto those who speak of Evil as [if it were] Good, and of Good as [if it were] Evil; who make Darkness into [the semblance of] Light, and Light into [the semblance of] Darkness; who make Bitter into [the perception of] Sweet, and Sweet into [the perception of] Bitter.” (Isaiah 5:20)
Bernard Ross Said:
Begin needed and got his DM’s approval to withdraw from Sinai and destroy all Jewish settlement in Sinai like Yamit. That DM was Sharon, and I don’t believe he was being blackmailed by anyone at the time. Begin I don’t believe was blackmailed he was just a pathetically weak blowhard demagogue, unsuited for the job of PM.
CuriousAmerican Said:
Enfranchising the Arabs? Never happen.
Paying them to leave for South America? You want em you pay for them, but unless they all go it’s a waste of good money.
Eventually they will exceed our patience with them and we will have to drive them all out and those who resist we will cheaply dispense of them. Isn’t that what the Jewish scriptures command of us? 😉
This is not an issue of what is right. It would be right for the Arabs to pay for this. IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN.
This is a question of what is doable.
Before the American Civil War, a few people suggested buying all the slaves from their masters, and setting them free.
The moralists said NO! It was wrong to reimburse traffickers in human flesh.
The Civil War left 600,000 dead and cost much more than it would have cost to free the slaves.
Sometimes the practical solution is better.
Paying the Arabs to leave is cheaper than a war.
This would start a war … and would lose Israel any support in the world.
It would be called ethnic cleansing – which I do not think would bother you – but it would bother you if the consequence was for Israel to lose any moral sympathy. Holocaust reparations would stop, and be re-directed to the Arabs.
You might claim there is a difference; but try to explain that to a world which is already hostile to Israel.
Your dreams of power are immature.
You may consider me a crank, but I am NOT so delusional as to think the Arabs will do anything to help Israel. Dream on!
Politics is the art of the possible … NOT the delusional.
CuriousAmerican Said:
There is nothing preventing the arabs from funding their brothers in peace and emigration rather than war, after all they will need those pals to fight the persians. I dont know why you keep insisting that the jews should pay their transfers when the jews got no compensation.
For some odd reason you keep omitting the 3rd and best option which needs no agreement and can be done unilaterally: Buses across the 3 hostile borders, deposit the hostiles, withdraw. This is perfect because UNHRWA is already there and can simply expand their operations there while closing down those in Israel. The problem then would automatically have to be solved outside of Israel where it belongs. The precedent has already been established by the transfer of Jews from arab nations resulting from the same ongoing conflict. No compensation was paid. Is anyone suggesting that its ok for the Jews but not ok for the arabs? Its even better now because Syria has become a porous border also.
Canadian Otter Said:
I think there are many Israeli leaders who are vulnerable to blackmail and extortion by foreign govts.
@ CuriousAmerican:
You’re right. They are a malignant infection that festers and spreads its hate world wide and threatens the body of the Jewish state.
Victory is also correct. It’s what has been missing in all of Israel’s war’s. Victory means to vanquish the enemy. This has yet to occur. But before it does, it’s nigh time to remove this hostile populace and deliver them to any one of their 22 Arab states. We’ve only got this tiny sliver. The precedent was set when close to 10,000 Jews were thrown out of their homes and not a murmur from the rest of the world (not that I expect the same result when Jews move Arabs, but the precedent is still the precedent).
Ted, be honest. That is not a peace offer. That is the present situation.
Do you really want the Palestinians to have a separate state at all? If not, don’t mince words. You do not want peace on Israeli terms, you want Palestine to not exist. If Israel has military access to Palestinian area, they are not free. It would be a sham.
You cannot refuse to give the Palestinians any of their major points, and call it peace. You can call it victory, but not peace.
Now, maybe victory is the proper solution, provided you:
A) Start to enfranchise the Arabs in Judea and Samaria
-or-
B) Pay them to leave as MK Feiglin suggested.
But if that is your opinion, then it is sort of double taking to say you want peace, when what you really want is total victory.
Maybe you are right. Just be honest about.
What cannot be done is to keep the Arabs in Judea and Samaria under martial law without end.
The real reasons behind Hitler’s joining the government in 1933. I’m reading Friedrich Reck’s “Diary of a Man in Despair,” written between the years 1936 and 1944. Reck tells the sordid details behind Hindenburg’s decision. The author was an anti-Nazi right winger, but not an anti-Semite. He moved in high circles so he had access to a lot of secret information. ~~~ Hindenburg’s son, Oskar, speculated on the stock exchange, and after the crash he owed 13 million marks. To make this back he got involved in some shady business. The Nazis found out in 1932 and had copies of documents to prove it. Old Hindenburg had managed to keep Hitler away from government, but by 1932, says Reck, Hindenburg was no longer a free agent. That year questions about the deal in which Oskar had been involved began to surface in the Reichstag. Meetings between top officials and the Nazis followed, and that’s how the German government opened its doors to Adolf Hitler. The author says he got this confirmed by other sources.
I mention this because governments often make decisions based on reasons that have nothing to do with the will of the people or the good of the country – and that may have catastrophic consequences. Ariel Sharon’s expulsion of Gaza Jews is said to have been prompted by pressure from individuals who were aware of his family issues.
How is that different from the situation that exists now?
I am not saying your goals are wrong; but be honest about it. You want victory, not peace. Maybe you’re right.
What is annoying is that Israel says it wants peace while doing everything to prevent a peace that the Palestinians would accept.
Maybe Israel is right.
But if the peace you want is all of Jerusalem, all the settlements, and the Israeli military in Judea and Samaria, then the Arabs will never agree.
That is not a peace offer. It is a delaying tactic. Make a proposal the Arabs will refuse, so you can continue to settle.
Again, I am not saying the Arabs are right.
I am saying that Israel says one thing, and does another.
I would respect the Israeli gov’t more if it just told the world they refuse to give up an inch of Judea and Samaria; and then started the process of:
1) Enfranchising the Arabs
-or-
2) Paying them to leave for South America.
WHO IS “ISRAEL”? We often use the word “Israel” but it’s not clear what exactly we mean by it. It can mean the people of Israel or the current government. NOT the same thing at all. ~~~ Regarding the status of Judea, Samaria and Jerusalem, how exactly do we know what Israelis want? ~~~ 1) There has not been a clear referendum on the matter, only polls that can be easily manipulated (assuming you can legally partition your country). ~~~ 2) The last election results were a vague indication of trends in many areas, not a mandate for partition. ~~~ The Likud even refused to release its new party platform (!) so Likud voters signed a blank cheque. ~~~ When we talkbackers say Israel should do this or that, we forget that politicians contemptuosly treat the people of Israel as small children. They are allowed to grumble, even vote, but the real grownup decisions are made by a clique of politicians and based on reasons that have nothing to do with the good of the country. ~~~ When “Israel” expels Jews and surrenders Jewish land, is that what the people want? Obviously not. So it’s important to make a distinction between government decisions based on undisclosed reasons, and the disempowered Israeli citizens.~~~ This disempowerment is the scandal that needs to be addressed. Politicians do not own the land and have no right to give any of it away. ~~~ And it’s even questionable whether anyone would have the right to surrender land that belongs to future generations of Jews.
Obviously anyone who is going to justify what the Arabs are doing at this point is either daft, deaf, blind and dumb. It would be wise to say as Bibi has been saying we are waiting for Abbas to come to the table based on my Bar Ilan speech.
We intend to keep all the settlements, Jerusalem is staying unified and we need a military presence in Judea and Samaria.
Obama is never going to be a Zionist. However, Israel obviously needs him to keep a business like friendly relationship (as he described his relationship with Bibi). You must politely him tell we are waiting for Abbas to come to the table and we will not demand any preconditions from him. We would like him to stop the incitement and illegal building however in Area C (this is Israel’s per the Oslo accords).
We need tell Obama that Abbas is not a true partner for peace otherwise he would not have gone to UN for statehood. He would not be condoning riots and threats of international law suits.