By Ted Belman
Apparently, according to TOI, Livni is ready to join the coalition in which she will be the Justice Minister and will be on the negotiating team for peace. Elsewhere I have read that Netanyahu intends keeping her on a short tether in this role. As Justice Minister it will be crucial whether she accepts the Levy report. Did Bibi put any constraints on her in this regard or other sensitive legal issues?
But of greater interest,
-
Meanwhile, United Torah Judaism officials have begun compiling a document of principles outlining the political concessions the party is willing to make in coalition talks, Maariv reported Tuesday.
The party would support, for example, the evacuation of isolated settlements in the West Bank and agree to freeze construction in ones that are outside the main settlement blocs, and even vote for the cessation of settlement funding and commit to not expanding some of the large settlement blocs, in exchange for a continuation of the funding of yeshivas and religious schools and keeping the status quo regarding limited conscription of the ultra-Orthodox into the IDF.
The party, which controls the Knesset Finance Committee, said it would also reveal how much money it costs to keep isolated settlements and outposts in the West Bank, Maariv added.
UTJ’s move comes in light of Netanyahu’s limited success in reaching a coalition agreement with the Jewish Home-Yesh Atid alliance, whose platform includes increasing increase ultra-Orthodox conscription.
So, it appears it is selling out the settlers in order to maintain its support of the Yishivot. Do we read from this that Bibi has asked for them to make these concessions on settlements? Why did he not ask them to compromise on the Yishivot and equal service.
Where is Shas in all this?
The Torah makes clear that serving to protect and defend the people of Israel is equated with loyalty to G-d. For example, when the tribes of Gad, Reuven and half the tribe of Menashe wanted to settle east of the Jordan River, Moshe rebukes them because he thinks they are trying to avoid military service: “Moshe answered the descendants of Gad and Reuven saying: shall your brothers go to war while you remain here?” (Numbers 32:6)
‘He goes on to equate the possible avoidance of military service with turning against G-d. He accuses them of being no better than the spies who forced the people to wander for 40 years in the desert:
“Now behold you have risen up in the place of your fathers, a brood of transgressors, to bring even more of God’s wrath upon Israel. If you turn away from Him, He will leave us in the wilderness and you will have destroyed this whole people.” (Numbers 32: 15)
‘Moshe is not satisfied until he extracts a promise from the tribes of Gad, Reuven and half of Menashe that they will serve in war against Israel’s enemies.’
Awesome, Yamit.
@ yamit82:
And I like men better then women ecause men are more staight forward.
@ yamit82:
Zelasko donesn’t know Hebrew!!!!!!!!!! Oh oh time for more pain pills!!!!!!!!
@ Honey Bee:
@ Aryeh Zelasko:
Don’t mess with her Zelasko, she’s a tough broad who likes to shop, dance and bake.
@ Aryeh Zelasko:
Honey Bee is my real name
@ yamit82:
amen
NormanF Said:
I doubt it!!!
Aryeh Zelasko Said:
Doesn’t Ex. 23:2 say that one SHOULDN’T follow a majority?
The plain interpretation of Ex.23:2 is that one shouldn’t follow a majority to do evil or to pervert (le-hatot) the law. The Talmud’s explanation of the verse (Sanhedrin 2a) is as follows: “From the fact that it says ‘You shall not follow a majority to do evil’ I can conclude that one should follow it to do good. If so, why does it say ‘[Do not…] incline (le-hatot) after a majority’? [The Talmud derives the principle of following the majority from that verse; see also Chulin 11a.
my replies 27 and 29 to aryeh still in moderation
@ Aryeh Zelasko:
I live in Israel and am fine tuned to the facts and it has nothing to do with being pro Torah or anti Torah.
National Religious Youth are a contradiction to everything you have said. The Haredim who do not recognize the State can leave it anytime they choose. At least refuse to accept state services and State welfare payments, subsidized mortgages and child care allowances. Frankly the Haredim and Arabs are a drain on the rest and there is no ethical or moral reason we should have to support deadbeats who make an art out of Galut schnorerism.
Shall your brothers go to war while you stay here?
The Torah makes clear that serving to protect and defend the people of Israel is equated with loyalty to G-d. For example, when the tribes of Gad, Reuven and half the tribe of Menashe wanted to settle east of the Jordan River, Moshe rebukes them because he thinks they are trying to avoid military service: “Moshe answered the descendants of Gad and Reuven saying: shall your brothers go to war while you remain here?” (Numbers 32:6)
He goes on to equate the possible avoidance of military service with turning against G-d. He accuses them of being no better than the spies who forced the people to wander for 40 years in the desert:
“Now behold you have risen up in the place of your fathers, a brood of transgressors, to bring even more of God’s wrath upon Israel. If you turn away from Him, He will leave us in the wilderness and you will have destroyed this whole people.” (Numbers 32: 15)
Moshe is not satisfied until he extracts a promise from the tribes of Gad, Reuven and half of Menashe that they will serve in war against Israel’s enemies.
We need a compromise that acknowledges the importance of true Torah scholars while providing the opportunity for the rest to participate in the mitzvah of defending the Jewish nation. Then participating fully in the economic life of the country. A win Win for everyone!!
What ever Lapid and others have in mid is irrelevant to the Mitzvah. That too many leftists opt out is all the more reason religious youth fill the void. By sheer numbers in 20 years they will determine the nature of the IDF and civil society.
Remember the lesson of Balaam. Even when our enemies try to curse us, they will bless us.
Aryeh Zelasko Said:
What they are doing is stamping the sellout of Y&S with the certificate of rationalized Kashrut!! A very big chilul haShem. Nobody can predict if the Arabs for their own purposes might decide to call the Israbluff and agree to compromise. There is always a first time for everything. Their Yeshivas are not worth destroying many Jews lives and like Gaza the raining missiles bound to follow sooner than later.
I would draft every Hared who meets the physical minimum standards and put them ahead of every Jew in the most vulnerable units dafka! Their enlistment would spread therisks, reduce reserve duty of others and even reduce the terms of active duty from 3 years to 2-1/2 years. I want them educated in secular studies and to be made into tax paying productive citizens of the State. They want Yeshivas then they should pay for them or at least for those elements beyond what every non Haredi student gets by themselves or from rich donors around the world.
I would also cut off the Arabs from their welfare perks, demolish every Arabs structure built without a legal permit and collect all taxes they have not remitted. Enough of this schnorer state. Even in the Haredi community many work off the books so they pay no taxes. That is a form of lying and stealing. Is that what they learn in these Yeshivot?
It’s time these rabbis begin doing the right thing because it’s the right thing to do. I speak with Haredi youth every week and most given the chance would volunteer, it’s their stupid rabbis holding them back and what’s happening now will only intensify and they are responsible.
Aryeh Zelasko Said:
no
Aryeh Zelasko Said:
I am not interested in an education, I am interested in the specific assertions which you made regarding IDF needs, Haredi fair share of the “burden” and whether the Haredi parties are willing to give away Israel in return for funding, benefits and privileges (which was the assertion of the article). You do not appear to have contradicted the articles assertion but rather to offer “reasons” for the sale. some of these questions only require a one word answer; just answer those. e.g. 100,000 goyim= russians? or is NK HarediAryeh Zelasko Said:
an arrogant an unsupported assumption. the discussion is already pointless because we spend more time discussing your inability to answer simple questions than actually answering them. You dont need to give a long story for your lack of evidence, jsut say you dont want to answer.
my 2 sentence reply 27 to aryeh is in moderation, we appear to be returning to the old paradigm.
Aryeh Zelasko Said:
I am not interested in an education, I am interested in the specific assertions which you made regarding IDF needs, Haredi fair share of the “burden” and whether the Haredi parties are willing to give away Israel in return for funding, benefits and privileges (which was the assertion of the article). You do not appear to have contradicted the articles assertion but rather to offer “reasons” for the sale.
I repeat my question, are you an Israeli, do you have any first hand experience with life in Israel or are you dealing in abstracts? There are much better places to receive an education in contemporary Israeli history and politics than this forum. I am not avoiding answering you question. I am avoiding a pointless discussion with someone without the fundamental knowledge to understand my answers.
@ Aryeh Zelasko: a reason for my questions was that your facts contradicted others that I have read. If the Haredi are serving equally then what are they defending against on that issue? Frankly, you appear to be running away from the questions, but I might be wrong..
Aryeh Zelasko Said:
In other words you are unable to answer any of my questions? You gave opinions without support and I merely wanted to see what support you had to offer. Perhaps you only want to visit this forum to give opinions without any questions tohear your echo, as in your last post:
Aryeh Zelasko Said:
You may or may not have valid arguments but you have not made those arguments here.
Mr. Ross are you an Israeli? From the questions you ask, I would assume that you are not. I really do not have the desire to teach you the history of contemporary Israel. There are better and more comprehensive sources than I. I would strongly suggest that before entering a discussion, you know the fundamentals of the issues.
reply 21 to aryeh in moderation
@ Aryeh Zelasko: thank you for the information you have provided. I have some questions regarding your information:
Aryeh Zelasko Said:
what do they and their constituents want, what is their platform? Do they offer anything to those who are not Haredi? Are Neturei Karta, true torah jews against zionism part of the Haredi?
Aryeh Zelasko Said:
what constitutes an anti Torah govt and why is Likud not considered anti Torah?
Aryeh Zelasko Said:
Please supply support or evidence for this statement. Are you referring only to a standing army? In a war aren’t the reserves called up? do those who are not drafted or havew not served or been trained get called to war along with the reserves and standing army?
Aryeh Zelasko Said:
Are you saying that 50% of Haredim serve in the IDF equal to the general population? If there is a need for 100 soldiers to go to war and the pool available to chosse from is 300 soldiers are the Haredi sent in equal proportion to war? Equal burden is not only about the need it is about sharing equally in the burden. a parent of one of the 100 soldiers going to war would not like to know that his sons chances of dying were increased because the Haredi were not going.
Aryeh Zelasko Said:
who are the hundreds of thousands goyim his father broght in?
It would seem that there is a fundamental error as to what is the function of the Hareidi parties. They do not represent Torah. They represent their constituents. At the beginning of the State there was a fundamental split in the Torah community as to how to relate to the State of Israel. The Eida and others chose to ignore it and live as an autonomous entity without participating or benefiting from the State. The Aguda took the position that the State of Israel exists and can not be ignored and chose to participate in its activities in order to protect the Torah community. Neither group nor the people they represent accepts the legitimacy of an anti-Torah government in Israel. I would suggest that you let that idea sink in a bit.
That is why they were not able to participate in the various Left Wing Governments but did join a Likud Government. The Likud was not anti-Torah.
Now as to the “equal burden” red herring. That is all it is. A red herring intended to distract a segment of the population from real problems. It is not a real problem. A real problem is that the IDF is bloated with militarily useless people who are only there to satisfy the megalomania of certain people in the ruling establishment. Probably two thirds of those in the IDF today could be sent home immediately without in any way effecting the security of the State. That, however, would require getting rid of hundreds of parade ground generals and thousands of useless none combat officers. All of whom seem to come from Israel’s “nice” families and windup eventually on the boards of Government owned or controlled companies or even worse, in the Government. Just look at Pretty Boy’s “military” record to see how it is done.
Reality check 50% of those of draft age do not serve in the IDF. That is not 50% of the Hareidim, that is 50% of everyone. So what is this “equal burden” being bantered around?
The true reason Pretty Boy and those like him want to force the Hareidim into the IDF is to break them and destroy Torah in Israel. They are haters of Torah and loyal to the principles of secular humanism or whatever but have no loyalty to the Jewish people. They are more than willing, as Pretty Boy’s father did, to bring in hundreds of thousands of Jew hating Goyim into Israel. As long as it will hurt the Torah community.
So I ask those of you who support forced conscription, of everyone, into the Army: Why? Is it because you mistakenly believe that the IDF needs all these people or is it your hatred of the Torah Jew and the hope that the Army will break him and ultimately destroy the Torah community?
@ Bernard Ross:
I a glad you made your self clear,I was about drum out of the tribe.
Honey Bee Said:
Who is denying the Torah? I am denying the credibility of some politicians who purport to follow Torah.
my reply 16 to
Aryeh in moderation
Aryeh Zelasko Said:
whether asked or not they make their opinion known politically and socially.
Aryeh Zelasko Said:
They have entered politics purporting to represent Torah ways.Aryeh Zelasko Said:
for those who risk their lives to protect their fellow Isralis this might be considered a “real thing”.
Aryeh Zelasko Said:
Aryeh Zelasko Said:
Aryeh Zelasko Said:
they are not being blamed for Oslo or all that has come out; they are expected to stand up for torah principles in their political platforms. Agreeing to give up Israel in return for privileged benefits is self serving. Surely their Torah principles extend beyond pointing fingers, casting stones at others and spitting on people. Where is their sacrifice or protest, where is the light unto the people? If they wish to be as corrupt as others then why should they enjoy any special privileges, benefits or respect. Any one can dress up in a black hat and grow peyas: wheres the beef?
@ Bernard Ross:
Without the ETERNAL TORAH there is no Eternal Jewish People,without the Jewish People there is no Eternal Land of Israel. The present government is of mortal man and therefore ephemeral.
If one denies the Torah what is the point of the Jews or Israel?
Let us consider this from another point of view. The Rabbis know that there is neither a possibility of peace with the Arabs nor of them having any influence on the negotiation process. Nobody ever really, seriously asks their opinion on what to do or how to do it. I doubt that the ruling elite take the whole thing seriously any more as well. Look who they just put in charge of it all. So from their point of view this is like agreeing to let the Treif Bird decide what to buy his latest girl friend for her birthday. Why not agree? It also provides a way for justifying dropping the “equal burden” red herring and getting on with real things.
Let us not loose sight of a few fact. The vast majority of growth in Yeshah is from the Hareidi towns and not from the National Religious. True this is primarily in a few “safe” areas but I do not see the kind of massive move of people into Yeshah that equals the grandiloquence of this sector. It is the National Religious establishment as well that fully backs the Yeshah Council and has made pariahs out of the “hilltop youth.” It was their Rabbis that gave the HEKSHER to the Sharon Pogrom as well and teaches its students to sing GOI uber alles.
They are not offering to sell out Eretz Yisroel. That offer has already been made by Begin, Rabin, Peres, Sharon, Netanyahu, Barak and the overwhelming majority of the professional politicians. So again, none of these people listen to what Rabbis have to say. They do what they do based on their own criteria. So if agreeing to a done deal will advance the causes important to these Rabbis, why not?
Why do you insist on blaming them for this? They are not the ones in business with the Arab murderers or siphoning off billions into private accounts. They are not the ones who arm, train and finance the terrorists. They are, however, the ones who spend 18-20 hours a day, every day, keeping the Yeshivas alive and protected from the unJews. That is what is important to them and they are very good at doing what is important to them.
If all the Eretz Yisroel politicians where as dedicated and devoted as these Rabbis, we would never have gotten into this situation. The sad reality it that for most of the Eretz Yisroel people, it is just a posture or slogan to be used but not something to interfere with serious things like advancing a political career or making money.
So let us place the blame for the Oslo treason and all that has come out of it on the people who caused it and not on those who are trying to survive in spite of it.
I also ask those who are not willing to use their real names not to bother attacking my statement. I will only answer people who have a face.
Netanyahu will never attack Iran with or without Obama’s blessing.
No matter how much he offers them, the Arabs will never play ball.
The next four years will be like the last four years.
Netanyahu has two goals: to keep Obama off his back and to stay in power.
Everything else is secondary to his personal and political interests which are one and the same.
PM Netanyahu’s “Red Line”…Iranian & N Korean Symmetry…and Barack HUSSEIN Obama’s UN Gambit…Commentary By Adina Kutnicki
Posted on February 19, 2013
Only a willfully blind person couldn’t see where the Islamist-in-Chief has been heading, respective to Iran’s nuclear death project. Being a genius was hardly a prerequisite. Common sense, and a modicum of knowledge, was more than enough.
Shy Guy Said:
Yup, and sooner than most expect I think.
See my next post
What is with Israeli leaders of any stripe?
Who in their right minds before negotiations even begin, let alone before there is even an agreement to negotiate, disclose potential concessions they would press Netanyahu to offer the Palestinians? Answer – No one.
Such loose lipped wrong headed idiots have included in past, GOI leaders and that includes Netanyahu. Now it appears to be coming from loose lipped out of their right mind leaders of some splinter parties.
How to lay the groundwork for negotiations and then how to negotiate is largly a matter of common sense. Obviously common sense is in very short supply in the Knesset. Negotiations 101 should therefore be a mandatory course for all politicians along with an exam they must be able to pass before they are ever allowed to open their mouths.
Shy Guy Said:
Thse are the same rabbis who told the Jews under their influence to not flee the Nazis and stay put till it blew over. These are the same rabbis who opposed Zionism the one thing that might have saved their and other Jews Lives. These were the same rabbis, at least their mentality who view non Heredi Jews as little better than Goyim and as milk cows to be exploited for their own agendas. They seem never to put the question : What value Judaism if there are no Jews? What Chilul haShem can be compared to voluntarily giving up Eretz Yisrael to not only Goyim but to enemies?
These are the same rabbis who gave us Oslo which led so far to over 1400 murdered Jews and thousands maimed and wounded some for life. They seem not to have internalized their perfidy and are about to repeat the same thing again but who can say what will be the cost to us in the future?
Kahane H”YD, said of them: “They are Orthodox practitioners of Jewish ritual whose sojourn in an Exile two millennia old has corrupted and perverted the most basic of real Jewish values”
yamit82 Said:
We shall see…
Livni signed on to the coalition tonight and at a joint press conference announcement they spoke of nothing else but our growing security problems and the absolute need for Israel to make Peace with the Palis.
Livni did get the Justice ministry and the environment ministry so the ministerial key is one minister for every 3 MK’s in the coalition. or 1 minister for every three MK’s.
BB knows or believes when he gives up settlements Bennett will quit the coalition and Lapid won’t, He can’t afford Bennett unless Lapid is also on board so the coalition won’t be threatened.
Not sure BB will opt for a minority government because he would be at the mercy of Feiglin and a few other Likud MK but maybe he knows what I suspect. None will vote against BB and the likud in a no-confidence vote even Feiglin. The party would make them pay. BB is vindictive and never forgets, he will use all his power to destroy them politically. I don’t see BB gaining more than 56 seats. He can govern but only if he has no opposition within the Likud and they maintain 100% party discipline in all votes of consequence in the Knesset. Would he risk it?
Obama is coming and all has to be in place before the Great One arrives!!!
I think most of us know or suspect why the One is coming so early in this administration…The deal is probably agreed between BB and Obabama and Abbas/Hamas. Obama will get his pound of flesh out of BB and he wants a public display of BB on his knees acceding to his Boss’s dictates and demands. BB is well practiced in groveling and genuflecting, he will not disappoint. When it comes to the art of genuflexion, BB is a Master!!
Netanyahu is behind it. It has his fingerprints all over it.
Livni is not acceptable to the Religious Zionists so it appears again that Bayit Yehudi will serve in the opposition. With the bad blood between Netanyahu and Bennett, that was all but inevitable.
My guess is Lapid won’t join either – and a minority government of the Likud, the haredim and rump Kadima suits Netanyahu just fine.
Mosrim! Bogdim! Kofrim!
so much for those “Torah Jews” who keep waving the Torah in everyone’s face for a fig leaf and a red herring to cover their gluttony. Whether one is physically capable of settling YS at this time it is incumbent on a “Torah” based party, if anyone at all, to support Jewish settlement or be divested of any shred of credibility. the political state of Israel has a right to leave YS but has no right to waive “global Jewry’s” internationally guaranteed legal settlement rights in YS. If this is its purpose it should clearly state that it is unable to fulfill the only obligation of a representative of the Jewish people with respect to YS and it should seek to have another party represent global Jewry’s single interest in YS. That party should undertake a legal battle to secure global Jewry’s rights separate from the state of Israel. Israel should clearly state, before it abandons the Jews, that even though it is intent on withdrawal it has no authority to speak on behalf of Jewry: that its interests are in conflict with those of Jewry. I see no justification for the existence of the state of Israel west of the green line which does not also apply to jewish settlement east of the green line. Two states should be pursued: Israel as it is and Judea in YS.
My comment was zapped by Spam Filter, for no reason at all.
LIVNI? Israeli politics are baffling, insane, scary!!! Particularly since the last elections, when your best MKs – Michael Ben Ari and Aryeh Eldad – were discarded and citizens gave their votes to all kinds of pro-partition parties. This otter is completely baffled and increasingly freaked out by those goings on. ~~~~~ As dark clouds gather, the country indulges in political games as usual, as if it was a “normal country”. ~~~~~ One of Murphy’s Laws goes something like this “If everything seems OK to you, you just don’t understand the situation.”
Evidence: Poll: Most Israeli Teens Don’t Know What Oslo Accords Are – 53.5% of Israeli teenagers do not know what the Oslo Accords are – http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/164978 – And very likely they and their parents have only a very vague idea about Israel`s legal rights to Judea and Samaria according to the League of Nations.
So I close this comment with a set of pictures that somewhat illustrates how humans are rarely guided by reason. With their choice of politicians, are Israeli voters playing daredevils too, I wonder. – http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2279100/Daredevil-drivers-flock-Icelandic-Volcano-leaving-vehicles-path-flowing-lava.html
I wonder what might happen if Bennet and Lapid could get together with Liberman. Might that result in a right-center coalition that could take power and possibly push Likud to retire Netanyahu?
I would also strongly favor terminating exemptions of draft-age men for religious studies. There is plenty of time for them to blossom into Tora scholars of wondrous merit after their spend two years learning how to confront armed enemies of the Jewish nation, the Jewish state, and of haShem as well. Which is a duty that befalls all the rest of their fellow citizens.
As for the black hats who spend their free time howling at and insulting Jewish women not dressed to their tastes, perhaps these exemplary true believers would be more comfortable residing in a similar society such as the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, or, for that matter, the Taliban-controlled parts of Afghanistan. And for such Jewish folks who refuse to recognize the State of Israel, I would simply boot them out of the country.
Am I anti-religious? Not so. I always have considered Orthodox Judaism as the only legitimate branch of Judaism, partly in keeping with the fact that I despise modern liberalism, Jewish or otherwise. My associations with Rav Meir Kahane in the 1980s helped seal that bond for me. Rav Kahane, by the way, himself a Tora scholar who founded a fine yeshiva in Israel, served as a soldier in Zahal, and he was proud of that.
Arnold Harris
Mount Horeb WI