By Ted Belman
Now that I have embraced the work of Francisco Gil-White with regard to Serbia, I thought I knew enough to convince my son of the truth. He called me a holocaust denier because I attempted to whitewash the Serbs and Milosevic and deny the “massacres” they were alleged to have perpetrated.
So I started to look for evidence that would debunk the “massacres” and found the Conclusions of Srebrenica Research Group in their study of Srebrenica, The Politics of War Crimes.
Bottom Line
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“Both the scale of the casualties at Srebrenica and the context of events have been misrepresented in official reports from governmental and non-governmental organizations as well as news organizations.
“Both US and US-appointed ICTY officials acknowledged political considerations in issuing genocide indictments, which were announced prior to an investigation of events surrounding the capture of Srebrenica.
“Muslim leaders from Srebrenica claim that the town was deliberately “sacrificed†by the Presidency of the Bosnia and the Military High Command in order to encourage NATO intervention.
“Ethnic cleansing evokes condemnation only when it is committed by Serbs, not against them.
“Media treatment of the Srebrenica and Krajina cases followed the same pattern and illustrates well how the media make some victims worthy and others unworthy in accord with a political agenda.
So why is this so important? It teaches us to not trust what governments, the media and the “victims” say. Also it teaches that Governments obscure their true agendas.
Jews and Israel beware.
MilosL,
Many thanks! (hvala!) 🙂
The mails are sent already. 😉
MilosL,
Julia Gorin needs your assistance on this. Recently Julia wrote an article which was published in the Baltimore Sun, where she discussed Croatian Ustasha Nazism in today’s Croatia. As a result, Julia has been inundated with hate-email from Croatians as well as a flurry of hate posts on many Croatian websites.
Julia has requested our help in having some of this translated. Since Serbian and Croatian is really the same language with very minor differences (it is actually properly called the “Serbo-Croatian” language ) Julia has asked for the following to be translated:
-napasti ju svim mogucim sredstvima – pronaci, procesuirati – likvidirati za primjer svim ostalim belosvetskim jebivjetrima… (posted by raldes)
-ubit na smrt? (posted by Nozina) {nick name means big knife}
-Ne možeš. Smehe je neuništivo. Sve na kraju propadne, al smeha uvijek ima.(posted by hastalavista)
-Izgleda da je jedna od onih kaj ne vide qurca… Pa poludila od nehebice..(posted by sharper)
-Tko zna kad je ta kurca zadnji put vidjela(posted by Kurcubic)
-Meni se cini da ova spodoba ili karikatura od žene praši sve nas u mali mozak.Dok ona mlati dolare i diže tiražu svojoj novinskoj kuhi treba aktivirati hrvatske spavace u USA ,nebi li joj procistili sve rupe.
Zatim je odvest na nijagaru(slapove)i pustit je u crnoj vreci da vidimo dali bi preživjela! Ili je spalit ko vještice u srednjem vijeku,pa bi tek onda možda saznali tko je i što je.(posted by crookrutni){nick means croatian cruel) e.t.c.
Please e-mail the translation to Ted at IsraPundit@sympatico.ca and to Julia at jegorin@erols.com
Bill, Ted and Randy have explained the possible motives and Nathan described what anybody who tried to offer a more balanced view on ex-Yugoslavia could expect. To Nathan’s post I’d just like to add that Abraham Rosenthal and David Binder were kicked out of the New York Times because they did not follow the party line on the Balkans. What can common people expect if their own journalists are not permitted to offer a different view?
As for the Middle EastEven if we accept your explanation that US governement covering up Arafat was hard to come by at the time, what is to stop the media from dissecting the entire American policy in the Middle East now that this has come to light? By all means this information should cause a political earthquake of epic proportions, demands that the whole US policy be thoroughly revised, yet none of this came about. The mainstream media glossed over it! Why? What is stopping the mainstream media from exposing the Jew-hatred that is contained in PA textbooks, in the media, the things Arafat used to say to his supporters in Arabic? They were all pretty public, yet if it wasn’t for MEMRI and similar web-sites many people would never hear of them. Those things, and many others, are virtually absent from the mainstream media. Why?
I used to hold an anti-Israel position in the past, the standard one: that Israel is helped by the imperialist USA occupying and opressing poor defenseles Palestinians. Then I saw the same media that was spewing out lies against Serbia and Serbs were now lined up unanimously against Israel and it got me thinking a bit. I simply could not bring myself to agree with them. I began studying the Middle East more and pretty much left my former stance.
Nathan, Randy and Ted
Nathan,
Thanks for your most informative post. You are correct that I am not challenging the research of J. Israel, F. Gil-White and even yourself. I am not nearly familiar enough with the facts and history to do so.
I was however having difficulty with the conclusions being expressed and you obliged me with trying to answer the questions I raised.
I will have to read Ramati’s article again more carefully. It is very long.
Ramati expresses a high degree of cynicsm in his belief that American government and media motives to put out and foster lies and half truths when it comes to the Arab/Muslim world vis a vis Israel is about the same as that which he expresses over European motives. Ramati does not hide his suspicions of the motives of Western governments, media and business.
Much of what Ramati deals with in his article reflects my thinking, but he does make a number of observations and hurls a number accusations in his very lengthy article against both government and media that struck me as being somewhat over the top and without foundation laid.
I wonder whether others have critiqued Ramati’s article and offered their views, good or bad.
Nonethless, Ramati’s article is chalk full of information and historical references to which I am at least passingly familiar and his article will provide me with a pretty good refresher.
As to your point Nathan in seeking to answer my questions, I think your view distills down to the simple conclusion that the whys and wherefores for the West and Western media to collaborate as it were to create this false negative Serbian image are substantially the very same as the whys and wherefors for the West and Western media to collaborate in painting a negative image of Israel and a positive image of Palestinians.
You have essentially adopted Ramati’s view, though you did add your own personal experiences and frustrations at being unable to get the truth out.
Ramati also contends that Western government national interest in the Middle East coincides with the interests of the global main stream media that are substantially invested in and influenced by Muslim nations as well as Western global business interests of the powerful and influential in the global economy.
Such confluence of substantive interests amongst government, media and business certainly does provide the motive and the opportunity to create and foster the big lie.
In accepting Ramati’s views and your concurring views as being credible, one must further believe that garnering favor with the Muslim world back in the 1980’s and early 1990’s was as much an integral and important part of Western government, media and business strategic Middle Eastern policy as it is today.
Furthermore, just as President Bush and Presidents before him were being made to dance to the tune of Palestinian and Arab demands and perceptions, one must believe that President Clinton when he gave the order to intercede in the Balkans militarily, saw that lining up to support the Muslims and denigrate the Serbs, lay in America’s far reaching Middle Eastern interests. Add to that, the Western media and global business also saw such Western policy in keeping with their interests.
What troubled me in this regard is that so much has been known by the public generally of Jews and Israel and the Middle Eastern Arab/Palestinian conflict with Israel because of the deep interest and attention on many levels that that conflict draws, whereas from my recollection there was little known of the history of Yugoslavia and the brewing conflict between Serb and Muslims until the conflict exploded onto the front pages of many Western newspapers and vied for attention along with the news out of Israel.
I have long been at least somewhat aware of the mutuality of Western government, media and global business interests that came together to paint Israel as they have and pressure Israel as they did but I do not recall having the same sense from reading reports on the Balkans and the Serb-Muslim wars back in the 1980’s and 1990’s.
I may however be very wrong to look to my own lack of knowledge of the Balkan conflict back in the 1990’s and my lacking sense of some ulterior motive that moved Pres. Clinton to action as being representative of the publics knowledge in general at that time.
I am not disputing Nathan that your explanation for why and how this big lie about the Serbs and the Muslims was created and carried forth, for it sounds credible.
I am just not sure that it is in fact the right explanation or only explanation.
I guess I also disagree with Ramati where he concludes that because of a number of similarities between the history of the Serb-Muslim region of Yugoslavia and the history of the Jews in the Holy Land, the very same confluence of interests amongst Western governments and the global media and business interests came together to create the very same motives, opportunity and intense pursuit to create and foster lies as regards the Serbs as came together in the case of the Israel-Palestinian conflict .
Randy,
There is of course no secret cabal of elitists from Western governments, media and global business, but Ramati’s contention is that there is a confluence of interests and therefor mutual motives and opportunities to carry out the big lie as regards the Serbs.
As for the suggestion that the big lie about the Serbs also served American interests to find common ground with Europeans and was used by them to create a hedge against further Russian influence in Europe while at the same time furthering the Middle East policies by currying favor with Arab oil producers, that again is plausible.
Were such considerations both key to fostering the big lie about Serbs? Alternatively was the suggested motive of the American effort to halt or stem Russian influence in Europe just a collateral issue that gained some benefit from the big lie Western governments fostered as regards the Serbs?
Ted;
Of course truth is usually at risk of taking a back seat to a national agenda to advance national interests. That is often seen or at least there is good reason to suspect that is the case.
I agree with you and Randy that there is likely formal conspiracy culled together in a back room. The conspiracy I spoke of is more like a collaboration between various Western institutions that share the same interests and motives to advance those interests and therefor they create opportunities for that to happen.
There is no inconsistency between my accepting a conspiracy in the loose sense of the word amongst various Western institutions against Israel and questioning whether the same interests existed and therefore the same motives and opportunities were as intensely pursued vis a vis the Serbs.
I am as indicated to Nathan, relying on my memory of what I knew back during the Balkan wars and that I do not recall news or analysis that suggested to me that America and other Western nations supported the Muslims and denigrated the Serbs simply because they wanted to curry favor with the Arab Muslim Middle East with whom Western interests lay.
As indicated, while that may not have been obvious to me, I would be presumptuous to believe that my lack of knowledge was representative of the general public.
Finally, I think it has been overlooked by those taking issue with me, that in spite of my many questions and reservations, we are all generally in agreement that big lies can be put out by governments with the able collaboration of the media and big business and keeping that lie alive is most successful when those three institutions all share common interests that need to be protected and advanced.
One other point I wanted to mention about the term conspiracy. People keep using the term conspiracy repeatedly and the term doesn’t really fit for the reason that benj posted in his comment:
Benj captures my view in that statement also. There is no vast organized conspiracy but a common mindset of shared world views that drives a common agenda. These international elitists operate in unison because they have shared goals and visions, not because they have secret clubs and secret meetings in cigar-smoke filled rooms where they plot to overthrow the world. It is an Open Conspiracy, or rather, a progressive social movement that takes place before our eyes. There is nothing secret about it so there is nothing to hide, only to misrepresent.
The motive is globalization of economics and politics. Those who do not fit in with their agenda for one reason or another are set out for attacks, beginning with a negative propaganda campaign against them.
Bill,
If the media can smear Israel for 40 years and have more than half of the world view Israel in the negative it is no big deal for the to do the same to the Serbs for 10 years.
You keep asking why, what is the motive – benj in comment #9 offers a motive suggesting that it was an indirect move against Russian expansion and to show the oil rich Arabs we are their friends. Whether or not benj is correct, his assertion would be consistent with the US supporting the Mujahideen insurgents against the Russians in Afghanistan. The West in times past has had a history of supporting Islamic rebels in such cases.
There has however, been a shift since 9/11 whereas before the US gave support to Islamic rebels now the Russians are doing their best to make them their allies.
________________________________________________
On a different note as a follow-up to the article referred to in comment #2 – today’s news is that it is official and the International Criminal Court is open for business.
If the US has reservations about the ICC how much more should Israel? Beware of this further down the road after the court has established itself as a global authority.
Bill
By my arguing not to trust them, I am not saying they don’t ever tell the truth. I am just saying not to assume they do. You say the same thing.
By arguing
you are acknowledging that truth takes a back seat to agenda.
As for the agenda you refer to a policy leading to peace. How about a policy leading to the shrinking of Israel to perhaps non-viability. Maybe peace isn’t what the US is after but ultimate appeasement by way of the destruction of Israel. Maybe it goes beyond “gaining the trust and respect of the Muslim Middle East”. Maybe it is more in line with the views of the CFR and the desire to control the world as Nathan and the others argue?
You ask,
This suggests that someone has to sit down all these groups and set out an agenda. Why not think of these groups having coalesced into a movement with a direction and goal honed over eighty years. So much so that they have become like a large ship moving with such momentum to its ultimate destination that it has a life of its own. Many groups are powering this ship. Anyone standing in its way will be over run.
For a case in point look at Mid East Studies in the US. Is there a conspiracy per se to argue the Arab narative or are the academics merely happy fellow travellers?
All the questions you raise about the “conspiracy” re the Serbs could equally be asked of the “consipracy” re the Jews. You have no trouble accepting the latter, why not the former.
In both cases the western elites are advancing the interests of the Arab fundamentalists. So in that regard the linkage is appropriate. The Serb defeat is part of the desire to defeat the Russians. Similarily the fight against the radicals in the ME is a fight against Russia who supports them.
Randy and Ted:
Randy:
I am as you note aware of the influence various NGO’s, the U.N. run by Mid East Muslim despots, U.N. agencies, and Western governments that quite literally negotiate some truths for lies as they jockey for position domestically and globally and indeed many media organizations that report on what these various bodies would have the world believe when it comes to Israel and the Palestinians.
I am suggesting that seeking to explain the whys for the successful portrayal the Serbs as the bad guys and the Muslims as the good and how they pulled it off for so long by comparing the Balkan situation to the Israel-Arab situation, is a poor analogy.
No conflict has attracted nearly as much sustained interest, given rise to so many strong views and has awakened as much passion as has the Israel-Arab conflict which has been heating up over the past 40 years especially.
The long standing world majority negative, if not outright hostile view of Israel and Israelis can be explained by pointing to a number of factors including, raw anti-semitism, both the Muslim and Western variety that combines into a potent toxic mix, Western left liberal thinking that aligns with the underdog, the deliberate myopia of left liberal thinking that isolates the Palestinians as standing as the poor and weak underdog against strong Israel wing when in fact the Palestinians are every bit a part of the Arab populations numbering close to 400 million hostile to Israel, the pursuit of national self interest being seen as best accomplished by aligning more with the Arabs/Palestinians or at least trying to play the honest broker role such as America is doing, which is anything but honest as America too seeks to advance her own interests in the Middle East by bringing about a two state peace agreement, even if it leaves Israel sorely compromised in relation to not only the Palestinians, but also Israel’s close to 400 million hostile neighbors.
Sorry for the run on sentence.
None of these factors bear little relation to what the average Westerner knew of the Balkans. I would also submit that the war between the Serbs and the Muslims drew only a fraction of the interest that the Israel – Arab conflicts draws.
That said, I again ask, just what was it that induced so many nations, NGO’s and news organizations to overlook all their differences and conflicting interests to create and perpetuate this myth of Serbian evil?
For 10 years Saddam flouted the will of the U.N. as the U.N., contrary to the urgings of the U.S. were prepared to give Saddam an endless supply of second chances to obey the U.N. Resolutions. While there were as I recall some suspicions floated from time to time that Saddam had WMD’s, I think that alluded more to biological rather than nuclear weapons. I do not recall Saddam having nuclear WMD’s becoming the focal point until the Americans took the British intelligence of a possibility that Saddam had WMD’s and raised it to the level of a probability. The Americans, frustrated for having failed to mount an alliance to take out Saddam because of his getting around or thumbing his nose at a host of toothless U.N. Resolutions chose to put all their eggs in one nuclear WMD basket to gain support for going into Iraq and taking out Saddam Hussien.
You say that the media and Western governments have gone along with the lies about the Serbs because they both actually have been deceived into believing those lies.
I do not buy that at all. MilosL has pointed out that Serbs did bring the reality to the media and that reality was spurned in favor of accepting the Muslim lies. I have no doubt that Serbs in the West and even some pundits/journalists back in the 1980’s presented truths with evidence to back it up, but again their views were discarded and the anti-Serb views accepted.
Western governments by their various intelligence agencies and Western media by their journalists on the ground in the Balkans had access to the reality of what was leading up to this bloodletting between Serbs and Muslims and just who was doing the worst bloodletting.
It is therefore not a case in my view that neither Western governments nor media had access to truths. Both however had some common interest in presenting the realities of the Serb-Muslim conflict as they did.
What then was their common interest and just how did they conspire to successfully pull it off for so long?
It appears that this secret is beginning to unravel. You are contending it is not in the interests of either government or the media to allow this to happen. The thinking you ascribe to them is that their wrong created and perpetuated since the 1980’s-90s will continue to be fostered by them in order to save both Western governments and the media the embarrassment of being caught in a monstrous lie. Maybe you are right.
In terms of public gullibility, it is still there today of course, but the Western public today is far more circumspect and demanding of proof than it was during the time of the Nazis, a period of time to which you refer.
Hitler did not snow the Germans with lies about Germany’s problems . Hitler spoke of the problems and provided the German people with hope for German pride to be restored and for a better life if the Germans would follow him. In his book, Mein Kampf, Hitler laid out his views of the German status quo and how to change it for the better.
There were no lies there. The West, so anti-War from the memories of the ravages of WWI, then wanted to pretend that Hitler did not mean what he said, that he was a nutbar whose time would quickly pass and he did not present a serious threat and they figured they could buy him off with various appeasements. The West is acting now vis a vis radical Islam and Muslim demands in very much the same way as they again offer appeasement instead of giving punches in the nose, knuckle sandwiches in the face and swift kicks in the rear of radical Islam and send it packing.
Ted:
I disagree that I make your case in any way.
I do agree that agenda can count more than truth, but truth generally can and often does get in the way of moving forward on an agenda unless there is broad based support from a number of disparate quarters in that regard.
In no way have I suggested that the Western agenda is peace. I have stated here and elsewhere that the Western agenda is to advance its own interests.
The Arab world continues to harp away at the unresolved conflict between Israel and Palestinians lies at the heart of why the Middle East cannot embark on a path to change towards freedoms, democracies or some new form of being that the West thinks will make it easier to establish better and more beneficial arrangements with the Muslim Middle East.
Whether it is humoring the Arab voices or deluding themselves into believing the Arab bullshit about the need to first solve the Palestinian- Israel conflict, Western nations led by America are playing along with a view to advancing their own self interests in the Middle East. To do so requires pushing lies for truths as to the real nature of the Arabs, the Palestinians and their leaders and their hateful views of Jews and Israel.
There is a very substantial field of fertile ground to plant and nourish a conspiracy of Western nations, NGO’s, U.N. and media to perpetuate lies for truths and fictions for realities when it comes to perceptions of the Israeli – Palestinian conflict and Western agendas in that regard.
I do not see such a huge field of fertile ground to initially plant a similar conspiracy by those same conspirators as regards the Serbs and the Muslims and for them to nourish and sustain such fiction to this day.
So I am still at a loss to understand why and how this conspiracy got started and still is being pulled off to this day.
Ted, my deepest appreciation for your comments of support. Thank you so very much indeed.
You’re quite right Ted. Despite the great time taken in writing all this up, it really is well worth it.
This really is an absolutely awesome, highly educational, very interesting and terrific to read thread: I am sure it will open many people’s eyes to the truth of how the world really works!!
Thanks to everyone on Israpundit who is contributing to it! Keep it up, good people!
Nathan
You response to Bill is brilliant. No one reading it can be unempressed with your arguments. No, it is not a waste of time. I for one and many of our readers are owe a great debt to you, Felix, Francisco, Peter and Randy for your efforts to educate us. This is a fabulous thread.
Bill,
You obviously are an intelligent man who does a lot of reading and research. It is quite clear from your posts here that you don’t dispute any of the facts that Ted, Randy, Jared Israel, Francisco Gil-White et al, demonstrate and irrefutably prove to be true.
Bill, you rather are more interested in and want to know the intricacies and complexities of the “why” behind the lies of Western governments, media and globalist internationalists: in other words you want to understand their agenda and >”what makes them tick?”
Bill, the answer to your questions would of course take far more space than I am allowed to have here on Israpundit. It would also take many hours to write it all up. But suffice it to say that Randy’s analogy of the “Big Lies” in Adolph Hitler’s Germany that led to the WW2 Holocaust of European Jewry and the deaths of millions of Russians and Ukrainians from starvation in Joseph Stalin’s USSR during the 1930’s is a very appropriate and accurate analogy.
Lies are made by Western politicians and media all the time in defense of suicidal policies of betrayal and appeasement of despotic terrorist regimes like Iran, North Korea, PLO/Fatah, Hamas & Hezbollah etc. I, along with Randy and Ted have covered this very issue on numerous occasions here on Israpundit.
Bill, you acknowledge that Western governments and mainstream media lie through their teeth about Israel and the Jewish people and whitewash, spin or even completely cover-up Islamofascist crimes against innocent Jewish people in Israel.
Why is it so hard for you to accept that the very same people who lie about Israel and the Jews and portray the terrorist Islamofascist Muslim “Palestinian” Arabs of PLO/Fatah & Hamas as “innocent victims of Israeli violence” also lie through their teeth about the Serbs and Serbia and portrayed the Islamist Nazi KLA & Bosnian Izetbegovic Islamofascist SDA party and Tudjman’s neo-Ustasha Nazi HDZ party as the “innocent victims of Serbian violence” ?
Let me tell you something about the Serbs here in Australia during the 1990’s conflicts as I witnessed them personally. They were all very well aware of the truth of what was happening but were all so hopelessly divided politically that they couldn’t unite to form a unified political bloc and defend themselves against the lies of the Western neo-liberal globalist media.
On top of that, the Serbs of Serbia and Bosnia and Croatia/Krajina were forbidden from hiring Public Relations firms like Ruder Finn because of crippling UN economic sanctions imposed in May 1992 after the Izetbegovic SDA Islamofascists staged the infamous “bread queue massacre” of muslim civilians and others in Sarajevo, the Bosnian capital. It gets worse, no PR firm in the West would touch the diaspora Serbs with a 10 foot barge pole after that staged massacre by Izetbegovic.
Before that staged massacre by Izetbegovic’s Islamofascists, the TV networks in order to give the impression of “balance” and “impartiality” the Serbs down here would – once every few months of continual barrages of anti-Serbian propaganda – be invited onto TV networks like the Australian Broadcasting Corporation, Special Broadcasting Service, Channel Ten, Nine, and Seven for 3 to 5 minute “sound bites” and despite the short time frame given to them and the “when did you stop beating your wife?” type of ad hominem attacks by the media reporters, would stick to the facts and utterly demolish the monstrous lies perpetrated against them by the mainstream media.
This was all occurring in late 1991 to early 1992. But guess what happened, Bill? I never saw these Serbs on TV again!! The media deliberately suppressed the Serbian point of view or for that matter any point of view including my own and that of my friends!!
Despite numerous phone calls and letters to every single TV station/network, exposing their monstrous Goebbels style lies, I was totally ignored and rebuffed!
On one occasion the guy at the TV newsroom hung up the phone as soon as I attempted to point out a blatant lie they perpetrated when they said that Milosevic and the Serbs were adherents of Fascism/Nazism and the Bosnian Muslims and Croatians were supposedly “Western oriented liberal democrats committed to a multi-ethnic society”!! I became nauseous at such continually repeated, disgusting, shameless lies, but the media did not want to hear me or my friends out! How do you explain that, Bill?
So, is it any surprise that they didn’t want to listen to the Serbian point of view?
Bill, I strongly suggest you read this article by Yohanan Ramati, the director of the Jerusalem Institute for Western Defense
Yohanan Ramati made this crucially important connection between Western policy vis-a-vis Israel and the Muslim Arabs with its parallel in Western government policy towards Yugoslavia/Serbia – the Western support for Bosnian and Albanian Islamists in Bosnia/Kosovo and Croat neo-Ustasha Nazis in Croatia/Krajina -all the way back in the early 1990’s in New York’s “Midstream – A Monthly Jewish Review” magazine.
Yohanan Ramati is described by respected and distinguished specialists in the field as “an expert on global affairs, including the threat of Islam”.
Note especially Ramati’s comments:“The well-orchestrated and well-engineered demonization of the Serbs is a warning to all Jews who want Israel to continue to exist. Israel can become a target.” and “Those deliberately promoting radical Islam in Europe will promote radicalism and Islam everywhere.”
Here’s some excerpts from Ramati’s piece explaining the principles and similarities/parallels in his article: “Lies, Damned Lies and Statistics”
@ Bill Narvey
”
Randy has referred to the proverbial “they†whom people will often dredge up for support in a disagreement with someone. The question that should be put in every instance, one calls on the faceless “they†to support their position is, who are “they�
”
There is no conspiracy. There are different groups with different agendas.
”
Accepting that the evidence accumulated by and conclusions of J. Israel and F. Gil-White leads to the further inescapable conclusion that the Western powers deliberately conspired together with the support of the Western media and Bosnian innocent victims to portray the Serbs and their leaders as evil and the Bosnian Muslims as the innocent victims of that evil.
Such kind of conspiracy would have to have been initially and to this day massive. The number of conspirators would be powerful and the conspiracy itself would have to be of enormous complexity given it drew co-conspirators from so many diverse backgrounds and interests.
Just how has this conspiracy been successfully carried off from the start until now?
”
Again there were no conspiracy against Serbs. There were widespread opinion among politicians and media, and they were acting in accord. And that opinion was not directed against Serbs per se in fact. It was mostly directed against Russia, which considered as dictatorial and unfriendly power by western politicians and media. Attack on Serb was in fact intended to teach Russia a lesson and limit her influence, to revive cold war a little, in hope it would damage Russian economy. That was one part of equation. The second part is the oil. Japan and Western governments and corporations lobbying them (not only oil companies, car manufacturers too) would do anything to please arab oil – producing countries. The “persecution” of bosnian muslims powered radical fractions and created internal political threats in oil-producing arab world, and so it had to be ended.
Bill
You make our case, its the agenda that counts and not the truth. Secondly you suggest the agenda is peace but is it really?
As for the secret about who killed the diplomats, you will be surprised to learn that Joseph Norland began writing about the secret about five years ago and many wrote before he did. Do a google search.
MilosL,
I should add that not only is the American long standing policy wedded to a two state solution for the Israel-Palestinian conflict, there is very substantial support for such policy and such thinking throughout the West whether that support came because of anti-Israel sentiment, anti-Semitism or other views and feelings that were adverse to Israel. Accordingly it is not difficult to get the media on board with American two state solutions, for it appears most of the media are of that view.
The Balkan wars and the conflict between the Serbs and the Muslims hardly was a conflict that would have grabbed much attention or concern by the Western public as the Israel-Arab conflict has for decades.
I therefore do not believe the answer to my question lies in great measure, if at all with how the West, Western governments and Western media perceive and therefor report on Israel with so much criticism and condemnation while giving the Palestinians a pass, excuses and apologies for their evil.
MilosL,
Thanks for your comments.
As to your first point about the American government’s managing to secrete until recently Arafat’s involvment in the murder of US diplomats 30 years ago, it is understandable if such linkage came to the America government via confidential intelligence sources. They controlled the inflow and outgoing of information.
This fact of Arafat’s murderous complicity is not something therefore that the media necessarily would have had access to. That is quite unlike the situation vis a vis the Balkan wars that set the Serbs and Muslims against each other.
As to why the American government sought to hide this information about Arafat had almost certainly a lot to do with being wedded to a Middle East policy, a main plank being for America to lead the way to peace between the Arabs/Palestinians and the Israelis, gaining the trust and respect of the Muslim Middle East and thereby increase American presence, influence and power in the Middle East.
That is still the American policy and President Bush again repeated that in his recent State of the Union address when he said that America will push for a two state solution between Israel and Palestinians. He said this in the hope to gain some Democratic support and hold onto the support of Britain and several other allies in the Afghanistan and Iraq war.
Disclosing to the American public 30 years ago that Arafat was complicit in the murders of US diplomats would have thrown a real monkey wrench into American Middle East policy then, just as neither the Bush administration nor the Democrats that push for a two state solution are going to continue to ignore Palestinian evil and incompetence and continue to extol the peaceful virtues of Abbas who in reality is a Jew hating terrorist and terrorist enabler.
I cannot buy into your saying that the failure of Serbs, both present and ex Serbian nationals failing to open Western eyes to truths is because of Serbian disorganization and incompetence at getting the truth out combined with a broad deep desire by all others to hold the Serbs accountable. Not only were there at the time this lie got started Serbs who knew the truth, there were at least some notable voices in the West who also knew the truth.
You may be correct that one needs to go beyond the Balkans to find evidence to answer the questions I posed.
As to binding up the answers in the illusions of multiculturalism, while that may play some role in creating and maintaining the lie of Serbian evil, I doubt it would provide more than just one piece to this jig saw puzzle. Fear of Muslim reprisal for speaking out against radical Muslims was already apparent back in the 1980’s, but not to the extent of the paralyzing fear that now besets the West.
Perhaps MilosL there is more you can advise in this regard and I do hope others who obviously are very familiar with this part of history, can respond as well.
Bill,
The discussion Ted started was about the snow job on society by the government and the media; they are the “they” I was referring to along with the so called “human rights” NGOs who provide the propaganda. You should be familiar with these so called humanitarian organizations because they are constantly non-stop accusing the state of Israel of crimes and abuses against the Palestinians. These agenda driven NGOs are used to source articles by the MSM just as in the article I noted in post #2.
I really should not need to name by name who “they” are seeing that their names are continually popping up everyday in comments here on Israpundit since most of them are always slamming or demanding something from Israel.
You state that,
I beg to differ, if it were so world history books would not be so grim. The public operates off of the information feed to it and as far as the media getting the truth to them I believe there is sufficient evidence of widespread media bias today by the major outlets. Remember, for 10-15 years before we went into Iraq the media and world governments declare with certainty that Saddam had massive amounts of WMD. They ran documentaries and specials for years with footage and declared him a world threat. Now they act as though that never happened and it was all made up at a ranch in Crawford Texas. Did they deceive us then or are they deceiving us now?
I know it is hard to wrap your mind around something so big as this, that deception could exist on such an immense scale, but imagine what happened in Germany about 65 years ago; a whole society was made to believe lies while next door in Russia another society was believing different lies. I would also add that there were no shortage of lies in the West but today it is in the west that some of the greatest lies are perpetrated and broadcast out to the world. After WWII people ask how could it happen? It happens slowly by a process over time and it goes largely disregarded until it becomes irrefutable – but even now we have Holocaust deniers.
You wonder why the media does not uncover the lies? – because they believe them themselves! They deceive others because they are deceived, same with the politicians who push their warped agendas. It is their “reality” they are pushing so how then will they expose it?
In the case of Milosevic by the time it came to put him on trail 9/11 had happened and public perceptions of Islamic Militants was changed. To complicate things further, the mass graves of young Albanians that were reported by the media proved to be nowhere near the scale reported. After all of the information came out and the public was becoming aware of the threat posed by Islamic radicals there was no way to condemn Milosevic without condemning the UN, the US, the UK, NATO, and everyone else involved. They ended up holding him for years while dragging the whole thing out and letting him die, or whatever happened to him.
Bill, some of your questions bring up similar ones. Such as: how come the US governement was hiding that Yasser Arafat was behind the murder of US diplomats in Sudan over 30 years ago? What was their interest in doing so? How come the media, that you say are so willing to investigate governement conspiracies, never asked any questions back then and are not asking any now, that the facts have come up? What is the US interest in pushing for a Palestinian state?
As for the apparent non-reaction of the Serbs, since I am a Serb myself I think I can offer certain explanations. First of all we are notiriously disorganised as a people, a bit individualistic and vain. Second, we had no idea what we were up against. We too believed in the media that will uncover any conspiracy by western governements and that we will be able to get our word out. Sadly, the reality is different. Some Serb representatives were invited onto mainstream TV shows in order to preserve the appearance of impartiality but since it turned out that literally all of them could dismantle the propaganda against their people with little effort they were never invited back. Such was the case of Marko Gasic in the UK who during NATO war of agression of 1999 made the BBC and other mainstream British TV stations look like Soviet apparatchicks parroting the same detached-from-reality party line.
Many Serbs were inclined to believe that Milosevic was the problem, thinking that if the country democratises(as if Serbia was not democratic during Milosevic), if it adopts “western values” the West will look upon Serbs more favourably. Alas, these people had no idea that “the West” they imagined was long gone. Just like Czarist Russia and the USSR were not the same although they occupied roughly the same teritory and had more or less the same people living on it, the West of 40 years ago and of today are not the same either.
If it looks as if I am starting to touch different topics, I’ll tell you right away that I am, Bill. Because your questions can not be answered holding strictly to the Balkan situation. There are many other factors, most notable the spiritual change the west has gone through since WWII and the rise of liberal globalist and multiculturalist ideologies and to explain this a comment on this site simply isn’t enough. I could recommend the Norwegian blogger Fjordman and his essays on how multiculturalist ideologies conquered the West to give you a vague idea of what is going on today.
Why & How Did “They” Carry It Off?
Ted concludes that the net result of accepting the conclusions of J. Israel and F. Gil-White is that:
As a general statement that is I think, an overstatement. I would have postied that the public should be wary of accepting everthing governments, the media and victims say without offers of proof to back up what is being said. As a general statement however having specific application in most cases, Ted’s caution goes way too far. The public are usually not such gullible sheep. They have at least some capacity to exercise their own judgment and the media is usually there to assist the public in getting at the truth.
Randy has referred to the proverbial “they” whom people will often dredge up for support in a disagreement with someone. The question that should be put in every instance, one calls on the faceless “they” to support their position is, who are “they”?
Nathan, in agreeing with Ted’s posted summary of his findings and conclusions, again has provided voluminous reference links as he has in other posts to back up Ted’s conclusions, the conclusions of the aforementioned historians and his belief in the truths J.Israel and F. Gil-White offer as regards who the real villains of the Serb-Bosnian wars were.
Accepting that the evidence accumulated by and conclusions of J. Israel and F. Gil-White leads to the further inescapable conclusion that the Western powers deliberately conspired together with the support of the Western media and Bosnian innocent victims to portray the Serbs and their leaders as evil and the Bosnian Muslims as the innocent victims of that evil.
Such kind of conspiracy would have to have been initially and to this day massive. The number of conspirators would be powerful and the conspiracy itself would have to be of enormous complexity given it drew co-conspirators from so many diverse backgrounds and interests.
Just how has this conspiracy been successfully carried off from the start until now?
I looked at some of the titles of the articles in Nathan’s links that might provide that answer, but a quick skim suggests all these articles deal largely with what the conspiracy achieved in portraying the Serbs as evil, but does not seem to address and provide evidence and insight as to:
What are the common circumstances and interests that then existed that opened the way for Westerners and their media of normally such diverse and conflicting interests and attitudes to put aside all their differences and unite to form such a grand conspiracy?
What common interests did all these conspirators have that superceded all the other issues of global import that so divides nations?
Whose interests were served and why?
Why would it be in America’s and other Western nations interests to have an independent Bosnian Muslim state?
Why would Western main stream media, so competitive amongst themselves and so eager to unmask government fraud, lies and cover ups, not only remain silent, but pro-actively join the conspiracy to provide the public at large with misinformation, distortions and outright lies regarding the war between the Christian Serbs and the Muslim Bosnians?
Why did Western Christendom not stand with the Christian Serbs against the lies being told by Western governments and the media regarding the evil of the Serbs and the innocence of Bosnian Muslims?
How have Western governments, NGO’s, the U.N. the IHCJ and media kept this perverted upside down view of history intact?
There are doubtless a great many Serbs who have immigrated to Western countries. It is highly likely that these Serbs have affection for Serbia and its peoples and who have first hand knowledge of the tensions between Muslims and Serbs. It is highly likely that many immigrants from Serbia would not take kindly to their former nation and its current leaders and peoples being portrayed as this supposed conspiracy has portrayed Serbia and Serbs while treating Bosnian Muslims as innocent. So why then were these Westerners of Serbian descent silent in the face of these lies?
If they were not, how was it that Western governments and media managed to ignore these Serbian voices and just how did the Serbs stand for being ignored and fail to make even a dent in these lies that would have cut them to the core?
I would appreciate these and other related questions being addressed and answered. If there are specific reference links that provide proof to the answers given it would be appreciated if they could be specifically identified.
Anyone who visits Israpundit will notice there is much discussion of NATO’s intervention against the Serbs in 1999. This may seem odd at first glance to those who are unaware of what actually took place in the former Yugoslavia during that time but it is highly relevant to the issues discussed here, to current world affairs, and may I add, it indicates that Israpundit readers are better informed than the general public and ahead of the curve on international developments.
Serbia was the precedent but it will not stop there. An article today indirectly related to the issue is linked to at the Drudge Report under the heading: Global court to decide on launching first trial
This event of empowerment to the ICC along with what happened in the former Yugoslavia and many other events today are all part of a trend which relates to another topic that has been hot on Israpundit regarding collectivism.
It is certain there is a global movement to consolidate power at the international level as a means of global-engineering. This was the case with the UN and NATO’s actions against Serbia and it begins a trend where the collective power of the nations will be used take out people they don’t like and install a puppet governments. International NGOs billed as “human rights watch dogs†such as the group noted above, Human Rights Watch (an anti-Israel NGO), gather information (as they see it) and feed the liberal media (who is like minded.) The ball is picked up by the elitist politicians (Mostly Westerners) and all together they mount a campaign against who or whatever they have decided doesn’t fit in with their agenda. The populations of their societies don’t know any better because all they see and hear is what’s coming over the tube and they for the most part buy it.
This is collectivism on a global scale and threatens smaller nations like Israel who walk out of step.
They like guys like Ehud Olmert whom they hope to push around and manipulate, but what do you suppose they will do if Israel ever gets real leadership with some hutspah? – You think you’ve seen Israeli bias in the media now? Ha.
They have been pushing this global court and conditioning society to accept it as a legitimate world authority for five years now and they are getting closer. You can bet once it is finally recognized that it will be worse than the UN. All judgment will be relative to those who sit on the court and I can guarantee there will be no lack of bias against Israel or others who up hold traditional Judeo-Christian values. Individual rights will go out the door and the “common good†will be forced on everyone and every society.
Ted,
you are absolutely right on target. Both Jared Israel & Francisco Gil-White have done in-depth analyses on this very subject.
I strongly urge Israpundit readers to visit Emperor’s Clothes, Historical & Investigative Research and the International Strategic Studies Association – Defense & Foreign Affairs Global Intelligence System, to find out not only the indisputable facts about Srebrenica, but also Muslim propaganda in the Western media, Western government support of Islamist terrorists and their sponsoring terrorist states, Western media coverup of the Islamist Bosnian & Albanian KLA links to al Qaeda and the 9/11, Madrid & London train bombings, etc.
It shows in intricate depth how the Western mainstream media brazenly lies about and demonizes not merely the Serbs and Serbia, but also Israel and the Jews continually – thus deliberately inciting genocide of the Jewish people and annihilation of the state of Israel.
As the distinguished expert on Islamism and terrorism, Yohanan Ramati of the Jerusalem Institute for Western Defense has said, anyone who cares about Israel’s continued existence needs to learn about Yugoslavia and the Serbs as Israel will likely be the next target.
Ignore this compelling information at you peril.