By Ted Belman
James Prince, president of the Democracy Council and a leading expert in democracy and civil society in the Arab world, suggests Why Israel should support Arab democracy and acknowledges,
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Yes, the long road to democracy in the Arab world, like in the West, will be messy with many chances for landmines, static defenses and roadblocks. It will take years, if not decades, to develop and institutionalize real reforms, during which time newly vocal stakeholders from across the political spectrum, including liberal and conservative political Islamists, will vie for the prevailing position. And, yes, the average Arab in Egypt, Libya, Tunisia, Yemen and elsewhere believes in a more hard-line position than that of his dictatorial rulers. This will, no doubt, mean that regional governments will take a more strident position in bilateral talks with the United States and in multinational forums such as the Arab League and the United Nations.
But is not deterred.
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However, there are many net positives for Israel (and the United States) that outweigh the negatives.
He argues
First, by and large, Arabs want what everyone else wants, a chance to better their lives and those of their children. The lack of opportunity and no political channel to relieve the pressure over the past two decades fed into political and religious extremism. Enhanced democracy brings enhanced prosperity, economic opportunity and civil society activity, which in turn degrade the allure of the extremism. The angst, insecurity and hopelessness that come with living in corrupt authoritarian societies can be channeled away from violence and prejudice in a world that offers economic and political opportunity as well as a more active and open civil society in which differing or minority opinion can be debated rather than violently suppressed. The teachings of tikkun olam should, at the very least, allow for an appreciation that Arabs are, at long last, attempting to repair their own world.
While everyone wants more food on the table, man does not live by bread alone. It is much easier for rulers, democratically elected or otherwise to stir up passions against the other then to put food on the table.
He extols the virtues of “enhanced democracy” but makes no argument to convince us that it will result from the present turmoil even over decades. He totally ignores that middle class, educated young men in Arab societies are the most Islamist. He also ignores the teachings of Islam and the power of the Mosque as determinants of the probable outcomes. He ignores that Islam does not value democracy and independence. Just the opposite. Islam means submission. For Muslims to embrace democracy they would have to reject Islam.
He makes some other arguments and concludes,
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Finally, more egalitarian and tolerant governments will be forced to de-escalate hate speech aimed at Israel. They will be forced to be responsive to their own constituents rather than attempt to scapegoat their own corrupt self-serving behavior by blaming Israel.
Just the opposite will happen. They will keep their constituents focussed on the hated Israel to deflect their attention from their own shortcomings.
Or, its a demon. Or a nickname Muhammad gave himself. Or the name of the black rock they pray to. Or another form of false God… Just because you claim to be praying to a god, it doesn’t mean you are actually doing so.
You don’t find it odd someone would claim to be from a house of war – coming in the name of “peace” – before attempted world domination through force?
The Quran doesn’t have context in 90% of what it says. Read it and you will see. And actually, something in the range of 75% or more Muslims want the world under Sharia law, which just takes the oppression and killing out of their individual hands and instead gives it to the government to take care of. It should be telling that many of the radical terrorists we are facing were once praised as “moderates”
I’m telling you such a foolish sentence/stance is blasphemous. If you follow it’s train of thought you can only come to two conclusions
1) Nothing ever said or written about God should be believed because man said/wrote it for his own reasons
2) Everything ever said or written about any God should be given credence because its worshiping him, thereby even exonerating people like Jim Jones
Obama’s support for Arabs does not instantly mean anti-Semitic, and his illogical support for certain Jews indicates he likely doesn’t hold blanket feelings. Obama’s positions on Israel should probably instead be tracked back to his Liberal beliefs and utopia visions. Carter is a straight anti-Semitic @$$ though
That actually goes towards strengthening what he is saying about Carter IMO. But whatever you feel about the guy, its an absolute classic writeup on Carter.
So you constantly telling a couple Israelis and American Jews that they are to blame for Obama (because 78% of the 2% of Jewish American population voted for him), is going to get the Republican Party to pick someone other then McCain?
He was basically forced to, but he still tried to fight against it. In fact, when he was in congress he argued against the very thing you are giving him credit for now.
Do you realize that less then 6000 US solders have died between the two wars? Its actually a number comparable to the death rate had all the solders instead been in friendly, safe areas succumbing to accidental deaths. In fact, in 2007 or 2008 (cant remember specifically which year) a solider was more likely to be shot and killed in Washington then in either war.
Complain about the wars costing money we don’t have, or about the fact we seem to be doing everything possible not to win easily. But please, as sad as the loss of life is, don’t complain about the deaths of US soldiers. That is the illogical argument of the “Leftest Loons” you complained about earlier – and its really a poor one with lies and deception at its foundation.
Yeah, that is the logical thinking and exactly what some scholars are trying to introduce now. The difficulty comes in the fact that the Quran self-proclaims itself to be the absolute, infallible word of Allah in (supposedly) simple easy to understand text, while it also points out that one should do as Muhammad said and did (meaning the Hadiths, where most of the non-innovation issues come in). The other difficulty comes in those many teachers I mentioned earlier being, for the most part, relatives of Muhammad, the Caliphates and the earliest of the great teachers of the religion. They are held to be some of the most respected of all teachers of the religion.
In the end what we are left with is a religion which doesn’t really know what to do on many situations itself, and a people who have been struggling to make sense out of all the contradictory and poorly explained evidence they have. Sites like this show the struggle
http://www.islamicacademy.org/html/Articles/English/BID%27AH%20-%20Innovation%20in%20Islam.htm
Interestingly enough, the page also eventually directs to other issues which plague the religion and highlight its difficulty relating to the world around it – apparently deciding to move past the unclear innovation problem to instead point out worse sins people should address first like Interest (which is the basis for the entire worlds monetary system), having credit or owning credit cards, eating non halal meat and foods, etc. As you can probably tell, you generally have to be either a true follower of Islam and live in isolated communities (where your way of life will be catered to, often under Sharia law which makes many decisions for you) or live in sin and only halfheartedly follow the religion (the way the American-Muslims I have come in contact with seem to exist).
Unfortunately, as mentioned before, those restrictions come mainly from the Quran itself, Muhammad and the earliest of their great, respected teachers. For the last 1200 some-odd years though, people have been attempting to address many of the same issues they are still struggling with today. Making things worse, those who try and down-play the set-in-stone, absolute infallibility of the Quran and Muhammad’s teachings/ways in an attempt to ultimately grow the people are generally met with death for their questioning of Allah. (not that many really try though with the whole innovation issue again rearing its head and the fear of death staring them in the face) It really is a remarkable religion, designed perfectly to enslave people in a never ending loop of illogical issues and rules which force reliance upon sources with questionable intent or teachings.
American Ego, you have your religious beliefs (no more “scientifically” provable than most anyone else’s), and the rest of the world have theirs. Learn to live with it.
And who gets to decide who is a “false” God and how does one decide? There is no scientific evidence even for the God you worship – only your faith belief and some circumstantial rationalizations. Thus, your sophistries notwithstanding, you are back to what MEN do with the only one God that exists, based on my faith belief.
The “Allah” character is simply what the Muslims call the same God you and I believe in.
So what? Other than qualitatively, his “claims” are no more credible than the claims of Moses and the numerous authors of the New Testament. The Qu’ran in context is quite a bit different from selective quotes make it seem – which is why most Muslims are not running around oppressing and killing people like the Arab morons and the Iranian Mullahs.
The Hadiths, like the Bibles, were written by men, for their own purposes, not by God.
Oh, really? So, let me get this right. According to you the Bibles were written by God, not by Moses and the numerous authors of the New Testament. You are factually incorrect even based on Jewish and Christian beliefs.
OK. You may be right about Carter having made more overtly anti-Semitic statements in public than Carter, even though Obama sent his first envoy after being elected to Hamas and dormant Islamic terrorist Rashid Khalidi is a good friend of his. Overall though, Obama is still Carter on steroids.
I stopped listening to this insufferable moron after reading his explanation of why he was voting for Imam Obama.
Get the conservatives to pick a real conservative candidate rather than an unreliable RINO like John McCain.
I do this with the idiiotic Independents. The left wing loons are beyond redemption and must only be defeated by any legal means possible.
I don’t know that he is anti-war because he has escalated the war in Afghanistan though it is still too politically correct for me. Once we decide to go to war it must be ended as quickly as possible or we lose too many people on our side. Look how Truman stopped WW-II in four days, at a cost of two cities and about 200,000 of the enemy, after it had gone on for four years with milions of casualties, and ended big wars since then. That’s how you stop wars and get lasting peace, not by letting no one win, which means the war goes on indefinitely and more people die but a few dozen to a few hundred at a time.
At the next opportunity Israel needs to return Iran to its pre-Persian era, so that they can start all over again like the Japanese, Germans and Italians did, who are all now civilized and our friends. This will also teach all the other Muslim radicals, and the communists percolating in Africa and Latin America, what they can expect if they don’t cut out their barbaric behavior.
Unfortunately, THAT’S how you get lasting world peace. Bush’s Doctrine is working but it takes far too much time and treasure and lives to implement fully.
Unfortunately, the only one with the cojones to pull that trigger is Sarah Palin, who cannot afford the pay cut to be president in my opinion.
JoeyO, I took a glance at the meaning of innovation in Islam, and from my first glance I gather that its primary meaning refers to the worship of Allah and not to every day life. Any Muslim who has a phone, computer, tv, air conditioning, anything that runs by electricity, uses automobiles, airplanes, etc. is using innovations that did not exist during Mohammed’s time, and I say that they and commerce and education and trying to better your lot don’t apply to this definition of innovation. Every Muslim is free to try and earn a Nobel Prize if he/she so chooses. Retrictions put on Muslims are the result of clerics and leaders who would use their people for their own selfish purposes. So when the clerics and leaders of Iran and Arabia and Libya tell their people G-d does not want them to demonstrate against their governments, what a laugh! We on this site know that’s a sham, and I hope all the Muslims will catch on too. I think G-d has a “surprise” in store for these countries.
My view about Jesus is if he came back to earth, he’d say, What the hell is all this? Where are my women preachers and what’s this Holy Ghost and Trinity stuff have to do with me?
Correct, there is only one real God. There were false gods though, and many men claiming to be one themselves. Oh, and of course that other guy too – you know, the guy who only ever wanted to be worshiped by man… Kind of like whoever this “Allah” character is, huh?
Also, Muhammad’s book (the Quran) claims he is a descendant of Abraham, correct. Ironically from Ishmael though, and not Isaac. Yeah, remember him?
He will be a wild donkey of a man; his hand will be against everyone and everyone’s hand against him, and he will live in hostility toward all his brothers.
His descendants settled in the area from Havilah to Shur, near the border of Egypt, as you go toward Asshur. And they lived in hostility toward all their brothers.
Yeah, blasphemous statement there which I would rather leave just alone…
The conversation was “Anti-Semitic”, not “Anti-American”. And as I said, Carter wins that first title.
This is a man who once complained there were “too many Jews” on a Holocaust memorial council, and denounced one Christian member from said board because his name “sounded too Jewish”. This is a man who consoled Helen Thomas after her horrific comments last year. This is a man who, while defending his book “Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid” (yeah, seriously), said:
“The greatest commitment in my life has been trying to bring peace to Israel”
right before
“Israel will never have peace until they agree to withdraw [from the territories].”
And here, I’ll allow Liberal Professor Alan Dershowitz speak on the man a bit too:
“The entire premise of his criticism of Jewish influence on American foreign policy is that money talks. It is Carter, not me, who has made the point that if politicians receive money from Jewish sources, then they are not free to decide issues regarding the Middle East for themselves. It is Carter, not me, who has argued that distinguished reporters cannot honestly report on the Middle East because they are being paid by Jewish money. So, by Carter’s own standards, it would be almost economically “suicidal” for Carter “to espouse a balanced position between Israel and Palestine.” …If money determines political and public views as Carter insists “Jewish money” does, Carter’s views on the Middle East must be deemed to have been influenced by the vast sums of Arab money he has received. If he who pays the piper calls the tune, then Carter’s off-key tunes have been called by his Saudi Arabian paymasters. It pains me to say this, but I now believe that there is no person in American public life today who has a lower ratio of real to apparent integrity than Jimmy Carter. The public perception of his integrity is extraordinarily high. His real integrity, it now turns out, is extraordinarily low. He is no better than so many former American politicians who, after leaving public life, sell themselves to the highest bidder and become lobbyists for despicable causes. That is now Jimmy Carter’s sad legacy.”
So do tell, what good will finger pointing do now? You can run around calling people Obama-Voters all day long, but it provides nothing and is merely name-calling at the end of the day. Instead, teach people why they shouldn’t vote for him next time around instead of attacking them over their past actions. Plus, you can not prove any one person knew anything before hand. The media (outside Fox) did everything possible to fluff him up and cover-up/deny the true, dark secrets he was trying to hide. If they didnt watch people like Hannity leading up to the election, they probably know very little about his questionable background.
That is a possibility, but he is so anti-war and wishy-washy on absolutely everything he says that it is hard to really pinpoint it as a fact. Now, the people pulling many of his strings are a different story though…
Au contraire, mon ami. There is only one God. It would be heresy to deny this. Islam also traces its origins to Abraham, just like Judaism and Christianity do.
The Hadiths, like the Bibles, were written by men, for their own purposes, not by God.
It definitely looks like you are confusing what men like Muhammad, Moses and the other authors of the various Bibles have written about the God that they worshiped and wrote about based on their own faith beliefs and POV.
I disagree. Jimmy Carter was awful, but he was simply a moron and wasn’t anti-American. Imam Obama is like Jimmy Carter on steroids and we can justifiably conclude from the evidence, his actions and the advidors he has surrounded himself with that he wants to completely destroy US exceptionalism as we know it and the founder’s conceived, and deliberately wants reduce us to the effete and weak European level or worse. THAT’s what makes him far worse than Carter.
C’mon, Joey. Wake up, man, and get real. Of course it matters or the same mistakes will be repeated the next time. “Everything transpires for a reason” is a fatalistic rationalization after the fact.
There are many who believe that this may not be as inadvertant as you may make it out to be.
Actually, that honor goes to Jimmy Carer. Obama is bad, but Carter is horrific in this aspect.
Anyway, it doesnt matter who voted for who, or what they did or did not know. Everything ends up transpiring for a reason, and those are reasons which we may never fully understand. When everything is said and done, Obama may go down as the President who inadvertently started the great religious war between Judaism/Christianity and Islam (and possibly even helped bring about the start of the last days if you believe that war indicates as much)
AmericanEagle,
Unfortunately I am not Jewish, and rather a Christian fighter for Judaism and Israel like yourself. Do take heart though, more and more of us will continue to come to the forefront as we approach these seemingly last days.
I also wanted to say that while I agree with where you are coming from on most aspect, I do take some issue with this:
While you are correct on Judaism and Christianity, Muslims do not worship the same God.
(according to it and the Hadiths) The Quran was delivered to Muhammad in a dark cave by an “angel” calling himself Gabriel who told Muhammad to read (which he was unable to do) before choking him 3 times for his inability. Muhammad did not really believe this was an Angel (and really, who would?) until his wife talked him into it later. And the message passed onto Muhammad by this so-called angel was (paraphrased) “I gave the Jews and Christians my written word and they hide it behind their back, refusing to teach you the truth. Now I give you the real word” which goes on to have almost no similarities to either previous book. (and it leads to the eternal Muslim problem of ‘where these written words are that the Quran talks about?’ They assume they must have somehow been changed, but then there is the issue of Muhammad saying Jews/Christians had them during his time and were just hiding them from Muslims – telling hem something the book apparently didn’t say.)
Moving on – sure, the Quran has some similar stuff like “do not kill”, but it is always clear to give examples of how you can get around this issue. And that’s the thing with Islam, there is always a but involved in everything it says. For instance: [17:33] “You shall not kill any person – for GOD has made life sacred – except in the course of justice. If one is killed unjustly, then we give his heir authority to enforce justice. Thus, he shall not exceed the limits in avenging the murder; he will be helped.” And that of course allows for the interpretation of “justice”; which what is more “unjust” then someone who denies “Allah” and the teachings of his prophet Muhammad? Kill someone denying “Allah” and you are doing justice… And the Quran makes sure it points out constantly (inconstantly and illogically, but consistently none the less) that followers of Judaism and Christianity are deniers of “Allah.” Almost every underlying rule the Tanakh/Gospels outlines is given a way around in the Quran. (And we will just leave alone the issue created where a person isn’t limited avenging an unjust death)
So anyway, Islam just can not be worshiping the same God; it is constantly denying the Word of God from the Tanakh/Gospels, as well as the followers of said God. Islam separates itself from the Bible(s) in so many countless ways that it can only be worshiping something else. Considering Muhammad thought Gabriel was a demon, describes himself as being possessed with demons multiple times, and the calls for the worshiping of a black rock Islam claims was once a symbol of a pagan god (until the other 300+ around it were crushed and they were told to worship only the big one in the middle) then I think its easy to figure out who, or what, Islam is probably worshiping… But if that doesn’t help then just remember that Islam has an “end of days” as well, one which matches rather nicely that in the Tanakh/Gospels. Well, of course, other then the fact that they call the bad guys good and vise versa. Which might not be that big of a deal, right?
As per Yonatan’s request, all Israpundits should never forget that 78% of American jews voted to elect the most anti-Semitic president in US history, after knowing the long and deep anti-Semitic influences in his background.
Right enough, his first envoy was to Hamas, for his Cairo speech he invited the Muslim Brotherhood to attend, and apologized to all the Muslim dictators for America’s defense of freedom and democracy and he has been pressuring Israel to make concessions while requiring no concessions from the Palis.
Oh, they can have their own opinions alright, but please expect any opinions that weaken the Israeli alliance with its only ally, the US, to be rebutted to ensure proper context and balance.
I assume by “we” you mean those of you who want to weaken the Israeli-American alliance. Not a chance because this will allow you and your friends free rein to continue your attempts to weaken Israel’s only alliance.
Remind every Jew on this site that 78% of the liberal American Jews vote for obammy. I also remind Yamit, Shy Guy and Yonatan that they’re not allowed to have their own opinion about whether its good to be a puppet state of America. What I say is the alpha and omega of any discussion. That is all. – Please stop supporting Israel then, we don’t need your kind of support.
I hope you are Jewish because I’m getting tired as a Christian supporter of Israel of exposing the brazen anti-Christian bigotry by Yamit and a couple of his friends spewed daily on this forum. They seek to deliberately demonize Christ and Christianity and distort its origins and Jewish foundations – without any protest from other Jews who know better. This seems to be the Jewish version of “Ummah”.
yamit82,
What are you talking about?
First, the Jewish God and Christian God are very much one in the same. I don’t even know how you can begin to argue otherwise, it literally makes no sense.
Second, what Ten Commandments do you think Christians believe if not the one found in the Tanakh; which, you know, is the book Christians call the Old Testament?
The Apostle Paul didn’t create Christianity, God did through Jesus. The religion wasn’t restructured outside of old rituals and traditions being lessened in importance, and the inclusion of the acceptance of Gentiles. He was “dogged by the Jerusalem church” because they did not believe Jesus was the Messiah. (Although, it should be mentioned that he/Christianity wasn’t denounced by all Jewish churches as the two religions often practiced in shared buildings for sometime after Jesus) Paul only returned to Rome in the very last years of his life – which may have actually gone on a bit longer if they hadn’t executed him. And he founded no such thing as a “Catholic Church”; that wasn’t done until nearly 300 years later at the hands of Constantine for political reasons as much as religious. Paul, until his death, taught in Jewish sites of worship or wherever they could find a suitable place to make fellowship. And of course Jews don’t recognize Paul as a Pharisee or the New Testament books, they don’t recognize Jesus as the Messiah and are instead still waiting for his return.
What?
Okay first, there is no (nor can there be no) more significant difference then “Jesus is the Messiah” v. “Jesus isn’t the Messiah”. But more importantly, the books are called “Old Testament” and “New Testament” not because they are fundamentally different, but because one book was written before Jesus and the other after. In other words, one was written at least between the years 900-400 BC and one between the years 50-100 AD. That’s a 500-1000 year gap between the writing of the books. Hence, one is old, one is new.
“Judeo-Christian” was first used to reference Jewish converts to Christianity. It later began to be used to recognize a way of life based off the values found in Judaism and Christianity. It has never been a reference to a strict set of beliefs though, as no such thing has ever existed – from the very beginning you have different sects of Judaism teaching slight variations of the same Word, and that continued through Christianity as well. Anyone using it to describe values stemming from the Tanakh and New Testament, or to reference Jewish Christians, is doing so properly. Your view of the term is trying to make it into something it was never intended to be in the first place, and your calling that incorrect interpretation erroneous mainly because of misconceptions you hold.
Really, you just cant be any farther off on your thinking. But getting just to the heart of this statement, we will address the end-times mention – where no, Christians do not believe Jews will convert to Christianity. Its a simple case of the Jewish Messiah coming and, here is the tricky part, Jews accepting the Jewish Messiah. Where is the conversion needed in that?
No followers of Judaism will “abandon their own religion” in the final days, they will merely accept the Messiah they have long been waiting for. There is no “conversion” needed because the only thing needed to convert to Christianity is to believe in the Messiah; which Jews already do. The conversion that Christians expect comes not from an actual change in any ways or beliefs but from the acceptance of the Christ, which means Messiah, and specifically is Jesus to Christians.
Your main issues with Christianity seem to stem from an inability to separate Christianity and the Catholic dogmatic views and practices. I suggest you do so.
Absolutely correct. It is heresy to claim that there is more than one God. The Muslims also worship this same God and call him Allah. Abraham knew this. Why doesn’t Yamit?
Yamit doesn’t even know that the same Ten Commandments apply to both Jews and Christians.
I’m not sure what branch of Judaism this guy follows.
Perhaps on your distant planet, but America was founded on Judeo-Christian principles.
Is this the poppycock your Rabbis are teaching you? The last time I checked Paul came late to the game, well after it had begun with the teachings of Christ and HIS word had started to be spread by his Apostles.
Poppycock. Christianity was founded on a Jewish base, then refined by the teachings of Christ. The only difference is that, 2000 plus years later, Jews are still patiently waiting for the Messiah foretold by the prophets while Christians think they are 2000 plus years ahead of Jews.
In fact, the brazen, supremely ignorant and short-sighted bigotry and blind hatred of others by Jews like Yamit shows how far ahead Christ was in his teachings.
Just because the Canaanites and Arabs are morons doesn’t mean that we must behave like them, which then brings us down to their level. We can already see this in Yamit and some of his friends. Christ expected better from us.
With such deep seated hostility, paranoia and hatred towards one’s fellow man, no wonder so many more people found the teachings of Christ far more appealing and sensible than at least the hate-filled rationalizations of Jews like Yamit.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decl_19651028_nostra-aetate_en.html
http://dlibrary.acu.edu.au/research/theology/ejournal/Issue3/hall.htm
http://biblelight.net/non-christians-saved.htm
The critical difference between us and the Christians is whom we consider a fellow man. Modern Christians unrealistically pronounce all people fellows, and surely fail to treat them as such. A fellow is one from whom help is expected. Such a definition surely excludes the Canaanites and Palestinian Arabs from the commandment to love your fellow.
The Jewish concept of LOVE is not the post Renaissance romantic poetic.
Jews are commanded to love G-d, but he also loves them—apparently with no romantic connotations. We must love our neighbors, and a Psalmist “loves the law.” The slave may ignominiously choose to remain with his master, whom he “loves.” The Hebrew word is best rendered as “longing” or “attaching oneself to someone or something,” such as in Ecclesiastes 5:9: “He who longs for money will not be satisfied with money.” It is a sensible notion that Jews should attach themselves to G-d, and he likewise attaches himself to the chosen people. But there is no love in the modern sense.
To summarize: Where it says, “You shall not oppress strangers,” the Torah enjoins us against arbitrarily taking the life or property of the submissive resident aliens who are loyal to Judaism. Where it says, “You shall love your fellow just as yourself,” the Torah enjoins a positive attitude toward one’s compatriots, toward like-minded people only. OTHER JEWS! Vengence is mandated against enemies even to future generations of our enemies. That’s Judaism not Christianity, not Hinduism and not Buddhism but similar to Islam or Islam is similar to Judaism.
Interesting but confused essay and yet it is not official cannon of the Church but an opinion of a Catholic convert. Show me the Vatican official position, not a lay persons opinion.
Not correct.
Not correct
The term Judeo-Christian, is more expressly, the Judeo-Christian ethic. This term is especially popular in arguing against gay marriage, abortion, and the decline of morality in America. It’s been used to describe American morals, American ethics, American philosophical beliefs and America’s heritage. The reality of the term though, is that these two are not even related. There’s no such thing. Not only are they non-related, they’re in opposition. Jews and Christians are so far apart that there really isn’t any common ground, not ethically, morally, philosophically, and especially not religiously.
This is very important since those who use this term are doing so in an attempt to force others into their religious viewpoint, linking it back to some biblical precept. While it’s true that Christianity has its roots in Judaism, it’s also true that when the Apostle Paul created Christianity, he did so by restructuring the religion to such a degree that it was no longer compatible with Judaism. For that he was dogged by the Jerusalem church for most of his career, until he eventually returned to Rome and created what we now call the Catholic Church.
Jews don’t recognize Paul as a Pharisee, and they don’t recognize the New Testament
The most obvious difference between the two philosophies is the nature of Jesus, but there are other, far more significant differences. The Bible, as we know it, is comprised of two sections, the New Testament and the Old Testament. The Jewish Bible, and the Christian Bible. They are both so different that Christians started calling them testaments: Old and New.
Much of the Jewish tradition is based around the Torah, the Law—the Pentateuch, the first five books of what we call the Bible. There are 613 laws in the Torah, 365 Negative Laws 248 positive laws and according to Jewish tradition they are all just as relevant today as they were when they were handed down from Moses.
The point here is a simple one. There is no such thing as Judeo-Christian, and those who use the term do so erroneously, thinking that they have the support of the Bible for their beliefs. The reality is, according to the Torah, the Jewish Law, they are so far off the mark that they cannot make any claim to Judaism at all. If they claim their Christian heritage, then they must do so on the basis that they are separate from Jewish theology. Their New Testament disavows the Jewish Testament rather ardently, and Paul went to great lengths to prove that the law was no longer relevant.
So when people try to claim that our nation was built on a Judeo-Christian ethic, it’s not true. The only ethic ever acceptable to Christianity is Christianity. It has abandoned Judaism out of hand starting with Paul, Christianities creator. The only relationship Christianity has with Judaism now is Israel and Jerusalem, because they believe that’s where Jesus is coming back. Even at the heart of that though, they’re still waiting for a time prophesied in the book of Revelation when the Jews to convert and accept Jesus Christ as their personal savior, and abandon their own religion and heritage.
The truth behind the phrase is this; in the minds of those who use the term, there is no such thing as Judeo-Christian, there is only Christian.
Continue reading on Examiner.com: There’s no such thing as Judeo-Christian – Seattle Alternative Religions | Examiner.com http://www.examiner.com/alternative-religions-in-seattle/there-s-no-such-thing-as-judeo-christian#ixzz1FupGKfoP
Also read What Arab Civilization?, in response to one of the biggest dhimmi speeches made to slobber over Muslim clientele, given by then CEO of HP, Carli Fiorina, just 2 weeks after 9/11.
The above response to Fiorina should be bookmarked by everyone.
FIFY.
Educate yourself: Fjordman: Medieval Muslim Scholars – Their Contributions and Shortcomings
Oy, veh! Allah help us from the terminally ignorant and morally blind.
How can Judaism and Christianity be “completely” opposite when they both worship the same God and teach the same Ten Commandments? Where they differ tends to be the “vengeance” that Yamit likes to emphasize in the Old Testament and the picayune rules and regulations in Judaism that teach discipline and an ability to blindly follow rules but have nothing to do with being better people here on earth, whereas Christ added another level to the Judaism he practiced by teaching the same basic moral values but emphasizing forgiveness and redemption and loving one’s neighbor as oneself which has more practical applications as far as a religion’s primary purpose is concerned, which is to teach its adherents to be better people here on earth.
My mission is to shed light where there is darkness:
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0302fea3.asp
As Louis Armstrong replied when asked to define Jazz, “Man, if you have to ask, you’ll never know.”
I have no need to ask anyone to explain something as stupid, self-serving and delusional as the following:
Catarin, What the hell do you mean by “Over the centuries….”?
The last time I checked 1600 CE was a long time ago. Pray tell, what have Muslims done lately?
OK, OK, I’ll give you a few examples from India, where Muslims do not have any institutional radicals to tell them what to think. 1) Abdul Kalam, the brains behind India’s intercontinental ballistic missiles which can carry a nuclear warhead and wipe out Pakistan if it became necessary, 2) Asif Premji, the founder of IT giant, Wipro. 3) A.R. Rahman who won TWO Oscars for the music and lyrics in the hit movie “Slumdog Millionaire.” 4) Shah Rukh Khan, one of the hottest movie stars in the known universe, and 5) Sania Mirza, India’s women’s tennis champion, who does not wear a burqa or hijab whether she is playing or not.
Catarin,
The events you mentioned happened before they created the Quran/”Islam”, so “Muslims” did no such things – they didn’t exist. And while Arabs have provided some fine history, Islam/Muslims can not say as much. Very little, if any, real developments have come from followers of Islam – mainly because Mohammad himself said innovation is evil:
(from the hadith)
“Every innovation is misguidance and going astray”
“… and every innovation is misguidance and all misguidance is in the Hellfire.”
“Whoever innovates or accommodates an innovator then upon him is the curse of Allaah, His Angels and the whole of mankind.”
As did its early teachers:
Ibn Abbaas: “Indeed the most detestable of things to Allaah are the innovations.”
Ibn Umar: “Every innovation is misguidance, even if the people see it as something good.”
Sufyaan ath-Thawree:”Innovation is more beloved to Iblees than sin, since a sin may be repented from but innovation is not repented from.”
(and I can go on like that for pages, the early teaching of the religion is filled with such quotes)
The Arab peoples were extremely productive and innovative until the Quran’s writing and subsequent spread. That book/religion is the biggest repression ever put upon their people though.
Over the centuries Muslims, when left free to develop without repression, contributed greatly to humankind’s body of knowledge. Years ago I read in Biblical Archaeology Review how the Saracens (the Roman name for Arabs) brought the concept of zero to Europe in around 1600 CE. Prior to zero the Europeans had to write out a number in long hand, i.e., twenty-three dollars and five cents. It’s believed the Babylonians invented zero which passed to the Hindus, which then the army of Alexander the Great spread over the Middle East.
When Saracen traders brought the zero to Europe, people were astounded and some even frightened of the idea. The English writer John Donne was alarmed that “nothing” could exist, and some thought it might even signal the end of civilization. Another great contribution of Muslims is that they copied from Greek into Arabic all the great Greek writings that were in the eventually destroyed Great Library of Alexandria, thereby allowing their eventual translation into Latin and English.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/how-islamic-inventors-changed-the-world=469452.html
I hope Ted will allow this one to stay which is a magic trick to give you a jolt. Just for fun.
Magicianinpark.wmv
Felix as I said Mubarak was finished in any case and we know that the Army deposed him and not the mobs. The Camp David Accords were made with an authoritarian regime because at the time it was in their interests but it was despite the spin it was never in Israel’s interests. Israel now has a sort of early warning so as to correct mistakes. If Mubarak had survived Israel might still be sleeping their opiate like slumber. with a Peace treaty can you see Israel attacking Egypt if they began moving division strength troops into Sinai? Can you imagine Israel attacking Egypt’s advanced nuclear facilities?(They can have nukes some speculate within 2 years).
Even if the peace relations are left in place during the regime’s first uncertain two or three months in Cairo, it is by no means certain they will survive thereafter.
What really put me against your position was this pre-knowledge that you ,as your want ignore or are too ignorant to comprehend the significance for us. So I will spell it out for you Here:
Israel caught flat-footed, can’t count on Tantawi, despite reassurances
The new rulers may be influenced by oil-rich Saudi Arabia’s latest policy turn. As debkafile reported exclusively Thursday, Feb. 10, King Abdullah was so incensed by Washington’s abandonment of his friend and ally Hosni Mubarak that he ordered the kingdom’s diplomatic and military ties with Iran upgraded and strengthened. It is anyone’s guess today whether the generals in Cairo opt for Washington or decide to patch up Mubarak’s quarrel with the ayatollahs instead.
Riyadh can easily afford to make up for the loss of American aid to Egypt. Abdullah made that same offer to Mubarak if he stood fast against American pressure for his resignation, promising him a Saudi dollar for American dollar.
Felix instead of ranting on about trotsky and inane fables relate to the material I posted on the other thread and this. I have posed the question before: which is preferable a war with Egypt in the next few years or the next ten years? I have ans. many time for the former.
You people may attack leon Trotsky and tell lie after lie, but in that little adaptation of the famous Aesop Fable there is contained the actual working out of the Holocaust, the most terrible event in your history of horrible persecution on you
But there are indeed many whose minds are closed
It was taken from
http://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/works/1944/1944-fas.htm#p4
Bland
What you have just written above is a confirmation of what I wrote in opposing Yamit re Mubarak
Yamit reminds me of ultra leftism but mediated into this Jewish zealotry, which is worthwhile in its place (they will die for Israel) but is devoid of strategy and tactics.
All of this was spelled out by yourself and in the negative by Yamit on this url
https://www.israpundit.org/archives/33348
There are so many lessons of this in the above, and everybody should revisit it and think on it, and I have difficulty picking out one item
but try this:
This approach of Yamit brings to mind the historical issue of the defence of haile Selassie against Mussolini. But the leftists (ultra) all cried out but Haile is a despot and he oppresses his people and does not bear dissent etc.
Leon Trotsky was very upset by that way of thinking and he pointed out that the Nazis would gain a victory overall if they were not defeated in Abyssinia
The ultras could not see that, they were so obsessed with dogma
And so it happened
And so it happened with Mubarak
And it will happen with Gaddafi and that is partly due to Pamela Geller and many others, including Ted, all of whom I really do like and agree with them on much
To be successful you have to keep your feet on the ground and to box clever
I am drawn time and time again to Trotsky’s telling of the Aesop fable
Allow me to quote it again, because Yamit is unable to see that ity was better where Hamas HAD TO dig tunnels, because now they just run the heavy rockets which will murder even yamit right through thanks to the new regime there under Qaradawi
And I do know that Yamit has fought hard and I want him to live as I want every Jew to live
I would have expected a mental giant like you to at least have asked the question, How? Even out of some intellectual curiosity? I should have Known better. Mental midget that you keep proving, you are.
The Catholic Church has accepted non belief in Jesus a pass to heaven? Since when?
This is a new accepted form of Christianity?
This is what Jesus taught?
What is a good person?
Who gets to define the term?
There is no such thing as Judeo-Christian values. There are Christian values and there are Jewish Values. Since Judaism and Christianity are virtually complete opposites there can no be such an animal in fact. America is a Christian dominated country asserting Christian Values period.
Patent poppycock. Most non-Arab Muslims – in north America, India, Turkey, Indonesia for example – as well as many enlightened Arabs have embraced democracy without rejecting Islam. Blaming “Islam” is a gross generality and intellectualy lazy. The problem in the Muslim-majority dictatorships that most Israelis are familiar with and radical Islamicists in the western countries is not with the religion, which is often deliberately quoted out of context by some radical Israelis, but with the retrograde, intolerant, misogynist and paranoid Muslim culture as it has evolved in these countries which the radical Islamicists also follow.
How convenient. Actually, how delusional. This is the best evidence I have seen to prove how intellectually bankrupt it is to use religion and the Scriptures to justify geopolitcal beliefs and policies.
The Catholic Church has accepted this since the Papacy of John XXIII. It makes sense and fits very well with what Christ himself taught. It is more important to be a good person than to be a Christian. Gandhi is a good example of this. He once said he would have become a Christian if more of them were more like Christ.
What universal values? Judeo-Christian values come from Judaism and Christianity and are not universal. Only here is a G-d who is knowable, and not capricious. If Muslims living in the West and free from Islam would adopt Judeo Christian values and worldview, then they would be great contributors once more. Only Judaism and Christanity talk of Nebuchadnezzar’s dream: Daniel said that Babylon was the head of gold; Persia the chest of silver; Greece bronze, and last of all Rome only iron, and in its last days, mixed with clay. But now the descendants of “gold” and “silver” are below the descendants of “iron” in achievement. How far Islam has caused them to fall. Democracy alone cannot put the pieces back together again, neither can universal values, nor kids who want to be G-d’s God. Only Judaism and Christianity talk about the war of Gog and Magog – a very bad ending for many Muslim nations. I hope Yamit is right that “bad prophesies are not determinant but can be altered depending on us”.
Ditto – Thank you Mr. Belman
Obama is fanning the flames in the Middle East? I don’t see it. The U.S. had nothing to do with the ouster of Mubarak. Obama is skeptical of any U.S. help in Libya, and I’m with him. Let the UN and NATO handle it.
Many Muslims are like Jews and Christians who don’t believe everything their religion teaches. I made up my mind about some things in the Lutheran Church when I was a kid but still went through all the motions. If Muslims are allowed to live in societies that are not browbeating them with Islam, they can appreciate universal values. Latest Christian brouhaha in the U.S.: An evangelical Christian minister says one does not have to believe in Jesus to go to heaven. Many Christians scandalized!
I came upon a list of inventions by Muslims over the long centuries where religion was not able to destroy their thinking. I’ll see if I can find it again, because their contributions were great.
Oh!
Jewish understandings are quite different than you Christians and i go with the Jews every-time, especially concerning our scriptures and prophesies. Note it is in our tradition that all good prophesies will come to pass and bad prophsies are not determinant but can be altered depending on us.
Well since our understanding is that 2/3rds of mankind will be destroyed in Gog U Magog, I would say you might have a stake not that there is much you can do about it personally. 🙂
Unlike You Felix I don’t change my mind every 2nd or third day. I am a soldier in the Army of Israel and have fought in real wars. I lived in an ethnically cleansed Israeli town in Sinai. I opposed d worked against the phony agreement with Egypt for three difficult years. I have been to Egypt several times. I predicted 30 years ago that the agreement would not last and we will have to fight again over the Sinai. I have commented at least 20 times here on Israpundit That in My opinion Egypt is Israel’ my dangerous existential enemy. I aid supporting or not supporting Mubarak for Israel is mute as he was ousted by the military itself and at 83 and very sick with cancer he wasessentially finished and a lame duck in any event. We/I have been predicting a MB takeover for years and we have a lot of experience with that outfit through their sister and surrogate organizations here : Hamas and IJ. Elections were due in any event later this year.
What really put me against your position was this pre-knowledge that you ,as your want ignore or are too ignorant to comprehend the significance for us. So I will spell it out for you Here:
Israel caught flat-footed, can’t count on Tantawi, despite reassurances
I believe that a war with Egypt is inevitable and I knew Israel is not prepared. Another example of self-delusional thinking by our foolish leaders, our stupid leaders even. Israel almost lost our country in 73′ with similar strategic misconceptions and now we might have two years to correct our doctrine and past stupidity.
Hi, Yamit
I was just having fun, with the “apocalyptic” business. You said the other week, that I seemed a bit apocalyptic in my thinking. Since you identify me as “them”, i.e. the embodiment of all evil, I was wondering, tongue in cheek, whether you had joined my camp. For my part, I have only two apocalyptic scenarios:
(1) the Turkish-led attack on Israel (Ezekiel 38), in which Israel is victorious, and
(2) the NATO-led attack on Israel, which follows the first. Israel is crushed, but Hashem miraculously intervenes. This is outlined very briefly in Daniel, but in detail in Revelation.
I have no stake in either scenario. Personally, the more I get to know Jews, the less I like them. But the second attack on Israel, the one in Revelation, is far worse news for the US than for Israel. When that happens, God willing, I may “rapture” myself and my family to China. But the Jews? They can deal with God as they wish. They will strive, and He will win, apocalypse or no. It’s not my problem, in any particualar way.
Felix, concerning Gadaffi:
I think Moamar’s tough stance has caused some of the world’s dictators and other tough leaders (This is not an insult of them) to take heart. The Chinese leadership has just taken a stand in Gadaffi’s favor. As for Obama, he seems all hot to trot, to get the US embroiled in yet a third Middle East war. That should make him as popular as a rabid dog with independents; but his nominally antiwar leftists, in their screwy thinking, will probably applaud him for it. He may even win another Nobel Peace Prize for stirring up so much bloodshed.
Shabbat shalom, one and all.
Ted, Geller and Spencer must be smoked out! They are refusing to defend Gadaffi! Thus are in on the Empire/Sharia alliance destruction of gedaffi!
From
http://wedefendisrael.com/2011/03/05/the-defence-of-gadaffi-against-the-empiresharia-alliance-is-the-most-vital-issue-facing-pamela-geller/
Re-reading the above post by Ted he misses the point totally. You must defe nd gadaffi against Empire, if not a betrayal!
See
http://wedefendisrael.com/2011/03/05/the-defence-of-gadaffi-against-the-empiresharia-alliance-is-the-most-vital-issue-facing-pamela-geller/
Yamit82 unfortunately is a total fraud but unfortunately Ted will keep on backing and not exposing the fraud. Really sad!
An example of this slick fraud at work
The above
That is correct.
That is what I said when I insisted that the defence of Mubarak against the Empire/Sharia alliance was a seminal issue
the fraudulent Yamit opposed that of course then
That is precisely why Israel may be destroyed. Unfortunately Ted always goes along with the fraud in action.
It seems to me that Israel is trapped inside a deep crisis of leadership
In order to refute this Yamit will resort to his anti communism and anti trotskyism and immediately to smart alec type evasions as he has used above with Bland
This whole issue now centres not on Mubarak because that issue is passed by
But on the necessary defence of Gadaffi and his family and ultimately of the right of the Libyan nation to exist in the face of the Empire/Sharia alliance
Bland hints at this alliance in the above
I am in the midst of writing a critique of the Jewish position and the betraying role that Robert Spencer and Pamela Geller are at present carrying out in relation to Libya, where they are clearly joining with the Empire/Sharia alliance but it is clear to me that the great betrayal by Israpundit, Atlas, Jihadwatch and many others is in full swing as I write this
Not sure who and what you mean by “THEM”?
Sounds like a plan.
Yamit,
You should learn how to use quotation marks. None of what you said in post #3 is your own stuff — You’ve just cut/pasted from the cited article. You did this in another post that I just responded to as well. Perhaps you are the very author of the article on “Israel Uncensored News”, who chooses not to give his name; but I doubt that you are Barry Rubin, the author of the other article. If you are, please set me straight on the matter; if not, please learn how to use quotes.
All that said, I have my own ideas about why Obama is fanning the flames in the Middle East. It’s because he was trounced in the November elections, and he and his party have been sliding into tar pits. It’s the old magician’s trick of distracting the audience while ha performs a sleight of hand. I am very wary of any draconian moves being announced as a response to bogeymen, which is the next thing I expect of Obama. B. O. is on his way to a shattering defeat in 2012, unless he comes up with something monstrous; so expect monstrous things (like the ME goofiness) to happen between now and then.
You used (quoted, actually) the word “apocalyptic”. Are you one of THEM now?
The Middle East riots have caused oil prices to rise so much that the value of Iranian oil exports has increased to about $10 billion per month, approximately the amount Iran received before sanctions went into effect.
The wave of riots was boosted by the regime’s failure in Egypt, which was mostly a product of the White House’s pressure on Mubarak.
Extreme instability in oil supply and prices is good in the long run because it prompts Western consumers to switch from Middle Eastern oil to local supplies, and also prompts the development of nuclear power. In the end, the Muslim economies may be broken completely.
It is hard to escape the impression that Obama deliberately props up oil prices. That would explain his eagerness to oust Mubarak; doing so inflated oil prices without significantly decreasing output. It also explains the bizarre UNSC sanctions on Libya, which slapped a travel ban on Gadhafi and threatened him with ICC prosecution—which action closed an escape route for his family, ensuring that he would fight until the end.
But worse than inflating oil prices, Obama may have colluded with Iran. He surrendered the pro-Western government in Lebanon to Hezbollah, expelled Mubarak (a stalwart opponent of the ayatollahs), pushed Saudi Arabia to embrace Iran, refurbished Iran’s economy with petrodollars, and opposes a strike on Iran’s nuclear facilities. Can a Harvard graduate be so stupid as to do that inadvertently?
When the United States is aligned with Iran, and Russia cooperates with Syria, Israel faces a problem of apocalyptic proportions. Read ALL Here
The Western media and the Obama Administration are both exuding an aura of effervescent generosity and goodwill streaming out into the world: an aura of nation building, generosity, financial aid, human rights and all around good feelings.
It’s all bunk. There is a power center in the Western world, which has deep military, economic, social, racial and historical connections. It is a partnership between Western Europe (the UK, France, Benelux, Germany, Denmark, Italy, Spain and Portugal) and the US, embodied militarily in NATO and economically in the Dollar, Sterling and Euro blocs. It is a very cohesive entity, based on some sixty years of close cooperation. It is multiple times more powerful than China, Japan, Russia, India and Brazil put together (and the latter do not have a history of standing together effectually). This bloc of countries, and its leaders, have a number one priority of advancing their own mutual interests. They are not interested in democracy, unless it benefits them; nor in foreign aid, nor in human rights. This is the elephant in the living room, that many pundits seem to be ignoring.
This great bloc of powers, the real leaders of the “New World Order”, does not include Israel.
So, should we have democracy in Egypt? Or Sharia Law? Dictatorship? Theocracy? Oligarchy? a colony? It doesn’t matter, as long as whoever is in power satisfies the aspirations of the Power Bloc. How about dictatorship in Iran, Qadafi in Fezzan and Tripolitania, a puppet in Cyrenaica, Army Rule in Egypt, a cleptocracy in Tunisia, anarchy in Yemen? This or any other mix will work just fine — as long as the oil flows and investments return a profit.
Israel? Who’s Israel? Isn’t that the name of a Milton Bradley game? It isn’t played to be won, just played to be played. When the Sampson Option is activated, the game ends — at least, that’s how the Milton Bradley rules have it. Until that happens, the players trade properties for worthless pieces of paper.
Democracy for Moslems? Whatever works! Love, Peace, Democracy: They all mean rockets, and virtually nothing else.
“Arabs want what everyone else wants, a chance to better their lives and those of their children.”
But what happens when they see other people such as Jews leading prosperous lives for themselves and their children. Do they say “Hey, we should start acting more like the Jews”? Or do they say “Hey, the Jews must be keeping us down; the Jews must have stolen their wealth from us.”?