Don’t divide Jerusalem or Judea and Samaria

23 Comments / 23 Comments

1. The debate about annexing and pissing in the Atlantic seem some distance from the issue of dividing Jerusalem. With regard to Jerusalem, it is worth recalling that mohammedans claim it is holy to them because feuding Arab clans (nu, so what’s new?) in the eight century claimed that the dream mohammed had of going to the furthest mosque (never named) was Jerusalem. Jews need to tell the Arabs that they are dreaming! They have no more religious claim to Jerusalem than they have to Cordoba. Moreover, they have proved to be aggressive liars in failing to allow access to reigious sites to Jews under Jordanian occupation. The have demonstrated murderous hostility in the city they regard as holy and have shown disrespect to Jews by digging up the Temple Mount and denying any Jewish link to Jerusalem. In short, the Arabs have forfeited any right to any part of Jerusalem.

   As regards annexing, that is out of the question. Jews no more want the radicalised “Palestinians”, than do their ever loving Arab brothers. They should have self-government in Area A, which should be an Israeli protectorate, just like Puerto Rico. They should also be encouraged to emigrate to mohammedan realms and that means only minimal economic development should be axtended to them. It is not unkind or inhumane to refuse to reward hate and hostility.

2. Bill, you read me wrong. I wrote that the present situation is like autonomy. and whether we formalize an autonomy agreement or not, we aren’t confronted with the demand for citizenship. If we annex all the land will will be subject to such demands. A half way house is to only annex area C which has about 300,000 jews and maybe 50,000 Arabs. Not including Jerusalem.

   I never meant to say we give them autonomy over all of J & S. Just like they have now, in Area A only.

3. Yamit, a rational mind would understand what I am speaking of. You can be rational at times, but the times are many that in response to what I write, you appear in full flight from reason.

   Note:Narvey’s unresponsive response to mine.

   I asked specific questions of you based on your comment. You used the term rational in your disparaging description.,

   As usual when pinned down you you switch from topic to personal. You are an intellectual coward.

4. Felix Quigley says:
   January 15, 2011 at 1:27 pm

   Shy can tell us where Mr Feiglin stands on it…we need precision here

   Why does DRJB think that Feiglin is “pissing in the Atlantic” any more than all of the right wing Knesset members? The government is in limbo with the coalition dictating everything.

   Manhigut spends most of its time now in uniting the opposition behind the scenes and promoting a united non-sectoral front lead by Jewish leaders to eventually govern the country.

   There is a growth in support of Manhigut Yehudit’s concept. There are more people joining as members of the Likud as manhigut faction members.

   DRJB, it’s not a good idea to piss in the wind.

5. Yamit, a rational mind would understand what I am speaking of. You can be rational at times, but the times are many that in response to what I write, you appear in full flight from reason.

6. In fact the Palestinians are doing what Israel should be doing in her own cause and best interests. Instead it is the Palestinians who are taking steps to advantage Palestinians to the disadvantage of Israel.

   Explain how what the Palis are doing is in their own best interests?

   What should Israel like the Plais be doing likewise in our own best interests?

   So far Netanyahu seems to be playing for time by going with the status quo in the hope that something might break Israel’s way that enables her to pursue peace on her terms.

   If you really believe what you wrote here it proves after all this time and all that has been written you understand nada. You keep searching for rational explanations, of course rational according to Narvey and here lies your error, what you call rational isn’t!

7. Ted, I don’t get your explanation to Olivia.

   Just what do you think will be accomplished by giving Palestinians autonomy within J & S? Though you suggest annexation would be met with a demand for Palestinian citizenship, you say granting autonomy will result in the same thing, but Israel would be better able to control the pace of demands for citizenship.

   A grant of autonomy by Israel to Palestinians in J & S, as a substitute for recognition of an independent Palestinian State in J & S, is like an Israeli unilateral annexation of J & S. These ideas are non-starters, so why even talk about it?

   So far Netanyahu seems to be playing for time by going with the status quo in the hope that something might break Israel’s way that enables her to pursue peace on her terms. Waiting for some better circumstance to materialize puts a lot of faith in hope. Prayer and hope alone just does not seem to be as rational as directing efforts to plan and execute various moves that could facilitate those better circumstances ultimately materializing.

   The Palestinians are getting impatient, however. Showing no signs of backing off their maximal demands, they are trying to do an end run around the moribund peace process.

   In fact the Palestinians are doing what Israel should be doing in her own cause and best interests. Instead it is the Palestinians who are taking steps to advantage Palestinians to the disadvantage of Israel.

8. i was not talking about economics, but about nation state, nationalism, not in its evil sense but in its progressive sense

   Really? Progressive nationalism is it now? The Tea party is not a movement for change but a return to the status quo-ante. Which is a lot of BS as it is really about greed individual greed where they all resent the intrusion of government small or large in their affairs. For most that means a heavier tax burden or concurrent reduction in institutional and government services. All or most of these conservatives had gotten used to previous conditions and assumed by many if not most of the advocates of Tea Party were god given rights. Therefore they are classic conservatives and not revolutionaries.

   They want smaller government but when it comes to reducing the size of government ea. in turn wants the cuts to be made on anthers account. If they are retirees, SS and medicare are sacrosanct and if they are Young both may be cut and may demand just lower taxes.

   This group has not overriding ideology except all and for different reasons oppose the government. Greed is their glue as well as a lack of a wider social conscious. They are in one way or another into the preservation of their own wealth and assets. If the representative they sent to congress follow through according to this movements wishes you might get your revolution as the only place the government can cut expenditures is in the social safety net programs, education and defense. That could cause civil unrest not just from the main recipients of those programs. Expansion of debt will lead to mega inflation and higher interest rates are deflationary. Already they have allowed expansion of debt by 600 billion in QE2. Yes they have wrapped themselves in a cloak of patriotism but is it really?

   In the United States, wealth is highly concentrated in a relatively few hands. As of 2007, the top 1% of households (the upper class) owned 34.6% of all privately held wealth, and the next 19% (the managerial, professional, and small business stratum) had 50.5%, which means that just 20% of the people owned a remarkable 85%, leaving only 15% of the wealth for the bottom 80% (wage and salary work of economist Edward N. Wolff at New York University (2010).

   The statistics above do not seem to impact on the tea party people, they should with you.

   Say again what the Tea party is for or against? It’s all Bullshit.

9. Forgive me Yamit but your above posts are meaningless.

   i was not talking about economics, but about nation state, nationalism, not in its evil sense but in its progressive sense

   This is a major major factor. Do not deflect from it

   The Tea Party is all about nation and nation state and that is its progressive side.

   same with palin. Same with buchanan. Same with Fox news. There is a progressive side here which the FascistLeft just hates as does Islam

10. Olivia and Ted

    The essence of the matter is to oppose at all costs the setting up of the Palestine State. but so many have a foot in that camp. For example netanyahu keeps repeating it, Sarah palin does too although she is more pro Israel than Obama and Clinton, who have in mind (if they can) imposing the Palestine State with the assistance of NATO, the Jihad and western antisemitism (the support of western governments)

    The essence of the onestate idea which ted promotes is tat the rule of Israeli law extends throughh all that territory, with Gaza excluded.

    This will mean essentially that those who oppose the Jewish state must be excluded, on reasons of treason

    There is thus a very big leap that will have to be made

    This boils down to leadership

    this is why the valuable comment above which does focus on the present nationalist leaders must be persisted with and not allow my friend yamit’s “twisting” “shit-stirring” to deflect us.

    So this is a time of great change.

    Let Ted and Mr Wise et al put forward their policy clearly, and find out precisely where these parties stand

    Shy can tell us where Mr Feiglin stands on it…we need precision here

11. Ted, I had not understood this option [autonomy] and now understand your reasoning why you prefer at the present time. If only Israel had annexed in June ’67… Now, maybe this is the only “interim solution” that will work. I agree that a Palestinian state is a terrible idea.

12. The only reason I am cautious, as is israel, about annexing is that we would immediately be confronted with demands to give citizenship to all Arabs. While we have a plan to do this carefully and over time, it is not the preferred solution. Now autonomy avoids this problem without creating a Palestine state. In a way, that’s what we have now. Creating a Palestinian state is the worst option.

13. the Tea Party is not THE party of need but is a step or transition towards something very qualitatively different in America

    Note that in essence it is NATIONALIST

    Poll (pew) says that a whopping 71% of Americans are against rising the American debt limit. Even more are against raising Taxes.that same 71% are against the government cutting from the budget those things that they have a personal vested interest in. So much for Tea Party nationalism.

    I don’t believe any political movement can long endure based solely on negativism. Lets see what they are willing to see cut from the budget. Their moment of truth is fast approaching.

14. I do not subscribe to the school of thought that “things will work themselves out”, they certainly do but that working out can go against us

    So can anything else go against US! US huh? 🙂 No policy has ever succeeded. Mostly because of the law of unintended consequences. Best policy is to do nothing and manage ourselves by small micro moves that can be controlled.

15. Every morning I say to myself, “Okay, I have too much work to do–I won’t look at the net.” But then I see Israpundit in the in-box… Ted, as usual, you have so much “good stuff” on your site I just have to read it!

    Bland Oatmeal’s statement (It’s just another example of an international community that cares little about the well-being of the people whose lives it is manipulating — whether they be Jewish, Arab, or anything else) was also right on target.

    But I have a question, Ted. I don’t understand your stating that your preferred solution is autonomy only for Arabs. (An internal Balkanization?) I don’t understand how that could realistically work out. It seems to me the internationally unacceptable, simplistic, but legally, historically, morally and only logistically practical solution is annexation. Of the Land of Israel. I know this is a solution fraught with horrid problems, but what else will actually work?

16. These are great great contributions to thought on this issue of leadership, especially they are concrete and I like the phrase used “putting these leaders to work”

    At present they are disjointed, individualist, from a programme point of view confused

    I like in particular the use of the word or term “nationalist” to describe a new leadership and the definitive dropping of this so confusing terminology left and right. Could all try to use this term here from now on?!

    Or is this also pissin into the Atlantic (LOL)

    The issues are going to be fought out to the bitter end in America. the speech of Obama in which he attacked palin and led the blood libel against Palin shows this

    Obama is fighting for his job especially on the citizenship issue.

    the Tea Party is not THE party of need but is a step or transition towards something very qualitatively different in America

    Note that in essence it is NATIONALIST

    You see what I am driving at in dropping the left right terminology in Israel and using nationalist/traitor in its place, quite consciously

    remember that there are big forces inside Islam (remember Bosnia) and in NATO etc to push the Hague Court and to diminish and attack Russian, Chinese and other nationalism

    the more progress that Israel makes on this issue of its nationalism, by default almost, the more allies it will have. it does not have to seek or run after, just destroy politically Haaretz and Livni

    Israel is key. I would like to see more written about these parties mentioned above, and these individual nationalist leaders

    Even yet i am still not clear on their programme, incl feiglin, who can play a definite role.

    Israpundit can do us a big service. ted yamit and Shy are in Israel, and they can do lots of work on this, including interviews with these NATIONALIST patriots

    (See I used the word nationalist again!)

17. If there are to be new elections in Israel, I would strongly suggest a leadership formed around Katzeleh’s National Union, Feiglin’s Manhigut ha-Yehudit faction of Likud, Lieberman’s Russians, Shas, and other nationalist-oriented religious parties, and any other Knesset members of other parities or factions who, irrespective of other policies, would continue Jewish settlement as fast as possible in the territories — annexed or otherwise, and protect the rights of the Jewish nation to keep all these lands under the rule of the State of Israel. I understand their are a number of outstanding people of nationalist stripe in these various other parties, including Labor and Kadima; let’s put them to work.

    The time for talk about meaningless peace is ending. The time for steadfastness and action where and when needed is upon Israel.

    Israel needs a no-nonsense nationalist leadership that will never again cave in to any demands of the internation gang of Jew-haters and their accomplices in what remains of western civilization.

    In addition, the time is overdue for Israel to being finding new allies in Russia, China, India and perhaps Japan. These will be the new leading world powers in the eastern hemisphere in the decades to come. The stronger Israel is, the more that her alliances would be worth to the new first-rank superpowers of the 21st century. And if necessary, Israel must be prepared to conquer locally in order to achieve that power.

    That’s really about the size of it.

    Arnold Harris
    Mount Horeb WI

18. You need instead Israel to take control but I cannot see THAT happening without a new leadership

    Israeli political parties are starting to wake up to the possibility of an upcoming election in the not too distant future. Kadima is busy announcing new members into their political roster, latest entry, Ariel Sharon’s son (the one not convicted on the charges of bribery and corruption).
    Judging from Lieberman’s pronouncements and Yishai’s and Barak’s, an election may indeed be in the cards sooner rather than later.

    What is Feiglin doing these days?

    Mostly pissing into the Atlanic like BO would say, buy Yamit will have an update for us after Jan 18! 🙂

19. Ted, you said,

    “…only 30% of Arabs living in the eastern part of the city want to be part of a Palestinian state.”

    That is indeed a credible statement. It’s just another example of an international community that cares little about the well-being of the people whose lives it is manipulating — whether they be Jewish, Arab, or anything else.

    To cite a related matter, Sudan is in the process, in response to pressure from the international community, of dividing into two countries. I am, of course, encouraged by the prospect of the southern Dinkas, Nuers and others of finally getting self-determination. These rosy prospects, though, do not spill over into North Sudan. In fact, quite the opposite is the case that region:

    “[Moslem Sudan President] Al-Bashir has declared that if Southern Sudan votes in favor of separation, sharia will become the main source of Sudan’s Constitution, Islam the state religion and Arabic the official language.”

    — Ben Wedeman, CNN

    The leaders of the Western World seem to believe that all problems can be solved with democracy. The problem in Israel, the rest of the Middle East and much of the world is not caused by a lack of democracy, but by an abundance of Islam. Partition of Jerusalem, should it ever take place, will be disastrous for all those unfortunate enough to have to live in the Islamic sector — no matter what their ethnicity.

20. Sometimes I address myself to the international community and sometimes I address myself to Jews and sometimes to the Government of Israel.

21. I do not subscribe to the school of thought that “things will work themselves out”, they certainly do but that working out can go against us

22. Sorry for the bitter tone and I confess I feel the pressure too but time is not limitless.

23. Ted

    You always say

    The international community should do this

    Or do that

    Or do other

    There is a term we use in Ireland “pissing into the Atlantic”

    That just will not work

    Is useless

    Worse than useless because the One State Plan is full of these ideas, which can not work

    You need instead Israel to take control but I cannot see THAT happening without a new leadership but the building of that leadership is what has beachwrecked you and Gil White and all others.

    What is Feiglin doing these days?