By Ted Belman
It is imperative that Naftali Bennet shift his votes to strengthen both Likud and Yishai. A deal should be cut in advance to that gives him the Defense Ministry and Shaked the Interior Ministry.
Netanyahu was right to talk to Congress as he did and did so admirably. There is no question that if a deal comes out of the negotiations, it will be a better deal, though not necessarily an acceptable deal.
Obama’s manufactured outrage at the alleged violation of protocol, has fueled the fire of the anybody-but-Bibi camp. As a result he may have won the battle but lost the war i.e., he won’t the Prime Minister after the elections.
According to Haaretz, as of early yesterday, the average of the recent pols show, Likud 23, Zionist Party 24, Bayit 12, Arab list 13, Kaluna 8, YB 6, Yesh Atid 12, Shas 7, Yishai 4, UTJ 7, and Meretz 5.
The only right wing seats we have is Likud, Bayit, Kulana, YB, Yishai, UTJ and Shas is 67. Of course this is before we see the polls after today.
There are two problems here, Likud isn’t the largest party and Yishai may not reach the threshold and thus 4 rightwing seats will be lost. This would be a calamity.
It is imperative that Naftali Bennet shift his votes to strengthen both Likud and Yishai. A deal should be cut in advance to that gives him the Defense Ministry and Shaked the Interior Ministry and Ariel the Housing Ministry.
Of course this is assuming the polls don’t get better.
Justin Said:
I asked you to substantiate this claim before and dont bother to trot out the dagan BS as he was the one to advise 3 pms not to attack Iran but to trust and rely on the US, so he is covering his butt and seeking to advance himself politically.
Justin Said:
US strategic and military reports are known to be unreliable and incompetent, remember their intelligence report that Iran had abandoned nuclear goals? Israel does not rely on the US for assessments, they are often wrong. Show me a successful US ME story.
Justin Said:
only those who are clueless and superficial on military matters buy into this. there is only one ally in the ME who has never refused the US the use of facilities, Israel is taken for granted.Justin Said:
its a politically motivated study, probably paid by the saudis or iran. not worth citing.
Justin Said:
what a ridiculously naive statement, diplomacy is deception. Why would you want from BB what your own politicians and diplomats never do? Israel is faced with crooks and swindlers trying to kill the jews and steal her land; navigation with liars requires deception, look at your deceitful presidents, only a fool could be honest with any of them. Grow up and stop whining and whinging like a little baby.
Justin Said:
you appear to have left out the legal and historical reasons but then so has the GOI. I have always said that Israel should annex at least area c and then keep ab in the status quo. the arabs can leave the same way the jews had to leave the arab lands, i have no patience with the double standard. It doesn’t matter what happens to the pals until the world brings justice to the jews expelled from arab lands from the same conflict and until the signatories to the LON mandate fulfill their internationally legally binding obligation to “facilitate jewish immigration and encourage Jewish settlement”in the palestine mandate territory. Israel can annex the west bank legally but too may Israelis do not want to because they do not want to absorb the arabs. i agree with not absorbing those bent on killing you but they can leave. fifty percent of gazans want to leave and especially go to europe but they dont have the 10k. I think it would be a double bonus for israel to subsidize those criminal networks to reduce the price so more can go to europe. when enough of them are in europe they will be too busy killing each other.
Justin Said:
if you think the US is not getting value you shoud write your congressman, your aid is one percent of Israeli GDP and ties Israels hands in terms of sales to china etc and in terms of maintaining and developing its own arms industry further. I tend to agree that Israels dependence on the US has tied her hands. You should write your congressman but I beleive that most knowledgeable congressman are very aware of Israels strategic value to the US. You are not in the mainstream and have demonstrated no real knowledge of the factors involved.
Justin Said:
the only thing standing between is US pressure on Israel not to turn gaza to cinders with the sinai. Your perspective is faulty, Israel has the military capability to turn all the oil fields of the ME into bonfires. Israel has been restrained for decades.
Justin Said:
Al qaeda, IS are creations of saudi going back to 80’s afghanistan and the syrian bunch were trained and armed from bengazi with CIA, trkish and jordanian assistance. Arms to lebanon government are the same as arrms to hezbullah, the lebanese army is subservient tohezbullah as is the entire lebanon. Stop buying BS stories for fools.
@ Bear Klein:
@ bernard ross:
I want to commend the both of you for your responses to Justin. You both have very extensive knowledge that we all can learn from. I am honoured to have you and Yamit so active on Israpundit.
Justin Said:
congress approved moving the embassy to Jerusalem, settlements in the west banik are legal and legitimate in spite of euro american lies to the contray. the US guaranteed that in writing. AS ong as you promote the lie of illegal and illegitimate settlement I consider you an existential enemy of the Jewish people seeking to swindle jews of their homeland. You have noot cited one legal document which support your, the euro, and the big eared bath house pesidents lies of illegality and illegitimacy. The most superior legal documents are LON mandate, succeeded by UN charter art 80, egypt treaty, Jordan treaty. UNGA resolution are pure bullshit and of no legal value. a
S for espionage there is no more espionage laden nation than the US, the US always spies on Israel it is common knowledge. You also cooked up the weinberge bush pollard libels whereby a charge getting 3 years has gone past 30 when no US security interest was threatened. Israel was given info on soviet missile defenses in the ME and on tunisia for its attack on the PLO. NO compromise of US security but bush goes back to prescott bush who invested with the nazis. The US had an intelligence sharing agreement with Israel at the time and was breaching that agreement and endangering Israel Like I said your presidents and state dept retirees always get GCC money and grants.
Once more your sixth point is a load of hot air and bullshit with nothing to back it up in facts, only your agenda to defame Israel. Why would you be citing BS rather than fact I may well ask, perhaps you are reading right from your BDS manual? Again yu appear to have a very limited knowledge of important details over the last six decades and of the historic basis in the 50 years prior.Justin Said:
obviously I dont see facts or evidence only opinions and suspect citations. Your statements bear no relationship to the current “US perspective” so you should not begin to think you speak for the US, you are outside the loop and outside popular thought in spite of all the noise made by your associates. Israel gets stronger every day while chaos reign around Here is my prognosis: America can and may make the mistake that the euros made for who it is too late to reverse. It is a huge error to do what obama is doing letting in tens of thousands of muslim refugees from the ME and Syria. Facts show that wherever there re muslims in significant numbers there are problems of violence and intolerance. Naiive attempts at cultural imperialism and patronization such as Blasio just did always prove to backfire; the UK is a perfect example of what happens when trying to appease and accomodate that collective. While you all argue about what kind of muslim to talk about you are going down the drain. Europe is finished, they will have decades of civil strife that considering their propnsity for appeasement will simply be stalling the inevitable while the ummah takes over. Italy is a couple of hundred miles from LIbya and receiving thousands of refugees daily who have access to the rest of europe. IS said it will go in in with those boatloads. If you dont face reality you are doomed to the same, reading history and accepting facts would help you out.
While you waste time on the red herring of Israel you are circling the drain. Israel has learned how to deal with the terror threats but the US and europe are far behind the curve. Note that the US has never had success in war or dealing with the muslims, that is because the US is self delusional and mired in its cultural centrism.
your post lacked facts, evidence, support or reasoned thought.. have you never written a college paper, you showed no citations?
Justin Said:
More rubbish, bin laden never cited Israel before or immediately after but others did and he and the muslim ummah took up the bs story. the muslims are chopping off heads globally and everywhere where Israel is not. Furthermore, the US is hated as the great satan not because of Israel but because of their own intrusions into muslim lands. bin laden quoted this infidel intrusion in his writings. Israel suffers from its association with the great satan and is called the little satan. Your brain is topsy turvy, Israel is cited by those seeking to deflect with red herrings because muslims are globally head chopping and even muslims who are not muslim enough. Algeria has many bloody wars between rival muslim groups. YOur rendering of this very debunked canard shows clearly that YOU are a troll. Facts say exactly the opposite of your comment. As for Iran, your BS analysis is obviously geared to ignorant idiots. Iran is threatening the gulf nations plus syria iraq and lebanon as their first priorty that is proven by fact as opposed to your ridiculous fictions. Sicne the US took over in 1956, pushin europe out of the picture, meddling everywhere, with coups etc they have been the target of jihadis. HOwever, you are very naiive and do not take account of false flags on US citizens perpetrated by the same party that operated in tandem with the CIA to send jihadis to afghan in the 80’s and to syria now.
You are batting 0-5 and I have yet to see any analysis supported by facts or reasoned thought. your analysis is less reliable than the ludicrous pap that flow from your MSM to the space between the american publics ears.
Justin Said:
I would say hostile as opposed to lukewarm. Israel was threatened in 1956 by the US and pressured to leave sinai and suez based on guarantees of free passage through straits of Tiran. this guarantee was reneged upon as has been common with many US guarantees, such as the Bush letter, the LON mandate guarantee, etc. Even the original UN approval was forced out with blackmail according to my readings(francisco gil white)
are you buying the carter story that he arranged the treaty. My reading is that he was originally against sadat going to Israel but when seeing that they were going ahead without him jumped on the bandwagon and the slimy elmer gantry presented it as his own accomplishment. The value of the treaty after so long is questionable as it is unstable, unreliable and subject to abrogation at a whim. Israel gave up the benefits but still has the costs. the treaty is propped up by US money to egypt and when that ends it may be worse than what would have been if the US had not once more pressured Israel when it was only a few kilometers from Cairo and damascus. The US did not want a victory for Israel as their “role” as broker would not be needed. Israel has to still maintain a costly defense infrastructure but does not benefit from the sinai nor the potential military gains available to a more aggressive and adventurous military nation. When the treaty with egypt ends it will be worse because they would have built themselves up militarily whereas an unconditional surrender means oversight by the victor. Oversight by the US is worthless. In my view Israel might have been better without the US shackles by expanding its military to threaten the gulf, which is right across the red sea.
another american meddling cockup where they saved the PLO from destruction by Israel, guaranteed that Lebanon morph from the Paris of the ME to being a chaotic ME muslim cesspool, losing 2000 marines as thanks for protecting the muslims. Idiots ruined the ME with this error.
baloney, the US made sure that Israel could never reap the fruits of its victories in order to maintain its own hegemony over the ME.
You appear to be batting 0-4. Your fourth point was again, unsupported baloney opinion. You appear very short on knowledge and detail and long on generic BS.
Justin Said:
What is your point? the US has been an ally of Israel? Are you saying that the US has not got its fair share of the alliance? You do not seem to making a point here. As for the figures I leave those to yamit and schmuel. the alliance is one of common interests, it has already been stated by a US congressman that if the US was not getting the bang for every buck spent on Israel that Israel would not be getting it. The US public is in support of Israel and congress tends to reflect that support. the white house and state dept are a separate issue and are often in conflict with the public will. Many retirees like carter and indyk have their nests sweetened with arab oil money and kick backs. this is simply the reality of the world but it is foolish to mistake this for any moral or legal imperative. The US has many times prevented Israel from reaping the fruits of its victories and stopped them from destroying their enemy when winning. there are Israelis and Jews who believe that Israel should spend more effort diversifying its relationships and not keep so many eggs in the euro and US basket. Still I fail to see your point.
Justin Said:
Do you agree with that “commonly cited charge”? My research has shown that pallywood regularly puts out false information and the international services reprint it. The Jenin “massacre” claimed hundreds of thousands of dead civilians from the MSM which later proved to be 56 dead with half being IDF. there are too many examples we are aware of on this site to listen to this tripe.
Justin Said:
Do you agree with that charge? It is pure rubbish as all legal documentation proves the legality of Jews settling in all of Israel. You can not be illegitimate settling your own home. We have posted lots of documentation to that effect here so I wonder why you appear to champion the view that Jews are illegitimate in their own homeland of Israel in spite of all the legal evidence to the contrary? start with LON mandate signed and guaranteed by your nation, contiued by UN charter art 80, ignore UNGA 181 as it has no legal import, UNSC 242 has been fully satisfied and supercede wrt borders with JOrdan and Egypt, only Syria remains unsatisfied. The PLO derived no legal rights to any land as a result of 242, only refugee settlement issues which go hand in hand with the Jewish refugees from arab lands. Oslo is not a treaty but an agreement to reach a treaty which is now breached by unilateral PA actions. UNGA resolutions are not legally binding but are advisory and merely reflect consensus and not law.
Justin Said:
I have seen faked videos of pallywood alleged mistreatment being set up. this is a foolish comment wasting everyones time on the allegations of proven liars. Cite a legal source which establishes that settlement in any part of Israel between the river and sea is either illegal or ilegitimate. It sounds as if you want jews to walk away from their legal, historical,and moral rights to settle the Jewish homeland because muslim liars make allegations. Its called taquiyya.
Justin Said:
Whats your point? Israelis believe many things that does not prove facts. Jews tend to have stockholm syndrome and others have the usual perennial fear of the insane goyim who believe, like yourself, terrible things about Jews. But is that a good reason for you to exploit those fears in order to get Jews to abandon their legal and moral rights? You keep citing outdated polls, why is that?
Justin Said:
What is your point? Is it to show that the UN is a corrupt organization who consistently votes agianst the Jews as demonstrated by the ludicrous UNHRC? I am feeling that you might be a dishonest person who is seeking to cajole and swindle jews out of their rights and land by telling them that folks are against them, so they should give in and walk compliantly to the ovens. A sort of resistance is futile suggestion.
This second point of yours was devoid of fact and full of allegations and opinions with as much value as your allegations and opinions. The only thing you are starting to convince me of is that it is important to rise up and kill your killer first before he kills you. You make a good argument that the insane goyim are relapsing back into their usual habits and history proves that reasoning with those crazy people is futile.
@ Justin: Why Israel Hit the Iranians, and Hezis in Southern Lebanon read the link to the attached article. Clue it was NOT because we are on the side of the Sunni terrorists. It is because these people were setting up shop to kill Israelis. We are in a state of war these people and much of the fighting is not known to the public until it spills out in public like this.
If you want to follow developments in Turkey, Kurdistan, Iraq from a true expert you should Johnathan Spyers articles in PJ Media and the other places he writes as he is an expert on these areas (he travels there regularly and is touch with the locals). You will be unable to find one American paper or blog (to my knowledge) that remotely matches his insight and knowledge.
http://jonathanspyer.com/
Justin Said:
BB’s speech renders your statement false in substance in the US. An overwhelming vote of 90% of the people representatives in support of Israel. Your pres frantically tried but failed to get more than 10% boycotting the speech. As for Europe they have always been the existential enemy of the Jews, nothing new there but they will become embroiled in decades of civil strife after their Jews have left.
Justin Said:
why waste time citing an old poll that no jew would care about. the nazis would have polled similarly. whats your point that the wannabe jew killers hate the Jews? ridiculous comment.
Justin Said:
Are you asserting that their perspective is true? It is not unusual for europeans to beleive libels about jews. google blood libels, its a euro tradition. What is your beleif on this issue and why? We are not interested in the lies that people are capable of believing about Jews except to know that they are capable of another holocaust
Justin Said:
Why are you citing a 3 year old poll when these are regularly taken. Might you be trying to hide more recent positive polls on Israel. I see no links posted to the poll and the polls are way stale dated. Your choice of date is suspicious and I would accept no poll from you without a link as you are already proven wrong wrt your claim vs US.
Justin Said:
disingenous skewed citation expected from an anti israel troll. cite the poll and source and which countries. US, kenya and Nigeria might be the only ones with direct experience with Israel and are the other countries arab or muslim?
In your first point I see no facts, no evidence that is relevant and timely, but I do see that you intentionally choose information negative to Israel when we are already aware here of many positive polls and reactions through the years. So far, in my view you are still a disingenuous troll intentionally trying to spread libel and incitement against Jews.
Justin Said:
I remain correct. I re read your post a number of times but I see no reply to the specific points I raised in reply to your last post. Instead I see more unsubstantiated assertions posing as facts. So now you have ignored giving evidence for your first assertions and you pile up a second mountain of obfuscation. Here is my post which is waiting for specific replies to specific questions
https://www.israpundit.org/archives/63605153/comment-page-2#comment-63356000153097
Justin Said:
We do disagree on what you call “facts”. The “facts” you present as “the most relevant to your understanding of Israeli security and the US Israel relationship” are not only inaccurate but hardly relevant. Basically most of your facts are rants about how unpopular Israel is with most of the world. Even if true, what’s your point, you appear unfocused and unable to relate your “facts” to anything other than the implied suggestion that Israel give up her legal, historical and moral rights in the Jewish homeland. The nazis also did not like Jews, the americans sent a shipload of Jewish children to the nazis to die in ovens, the british killed Jews trying to get into Israel escaping the holocaust, the arabs expelled almost a million Jews from arab lands, etc etc etc. the Jews are not in a popularity contest and if you are suggesting that the Jews give up their legal, historical and moral rights in exchange for a popularity that will not only still not materialize but has never existed, I would suggest the opposite. If I fully believed the threat I would definitely not rely on any foreign nation but would instead build up my stock of bio wmd and have it ready for release in the lands of any of those trying to swindle the Jews of their land and those spreading lies and incitement.
I will go over your post but I expect you to answer specifically to mine which replied to your previous post. Also, I notice you cite many “facts” but I saw no links to the sources you rely on for your assertions. furthermore, you appear to have ignored prior posts I made which already addressed those issues. dialogue means speaking to the specific points raised as opposed to piling up another mountain of red herring obfuscation as a fig leaf to the unanswered questions. Please note that one persons agreement to “facts” stated by you does not authenticate or corroborate that the “facts” are true.
Asserted facts are not rendered true by consensus, which apparently is the bulk of your argument.
@ Justin: Obama caused Libya’s current state by bombing it. I predicted at the time into would turn into its own version of Somalia. I was correct and yes a real bad guy Khadfi is dead but some are thousands more killed since the very predicable chaos ensued. Chalk this one up to Hillary/ Obama and company due to their fundamental lack of understanding of the middle east, Arabs and Muslims.
Israel Prime Minister has no rescinded the Bar Illan offer he made for a Palestinian State (entity). The offer made under duress was Contingent upon the following conditions:
Recognition of a Jewish State
End of Conflict Agreement
Jerusalem to remain undivided
NO Palestinian refuges return to Israel
Security Maintained by Israel and the Palestinians would be demilitarized.
Yes Bibi did not believe the Pals would agree to the offer. However, these were the conditions. The Pals said no to ALL plus joined up with the other terrorists Hamas ending the talks.
@ Justin: I do not have the time to spend challenging several points of error but one is a whopper!
The USA blasted Khadify out of power with its allies who were concerned about Eini (Italian Oil company). Hillary Clinton talked about into this!
I was not a lover of Khadify but understood Libya (unlike the Americans in the White House and State Department) that if Khadify is blasted out of power Libya would turn into its own version of Somaliya. I said this at the time so this is not hindsight.
Now ISIS has stepped into the void and Egypt is having serious problems both in the Sinai and on its eastern front because of this. Never mind the constant fighting. So team Obama caused more calamities.
If ISIS takes control in Libya it will endanger the security in Europe. Certainly Italy who is not too far away and has a long shore line to be easily exploited to small bands of terrorists.
By the way Bibi has said his proposal made a Bar Illan for a PAL state (conditional on recognition of a Jewish State, security acceptable to Israel, no splitting of Jerusalem, and no Pal refuges to Israel, finalization of the conflict) of is off the table given the current state of the middle east. He made the offer under duress by Obama.
Bear Klein Said:
I used to listen to Dennis Prager once in a while but they dropped his show at my local station. I remember one thing about him – he was practically the only guy who didn’t immediately lynch the Duke Lacrosse players who were falsely accused of rape. I watched the video. It’s not just the Arabs IN Israel who don’t accept it – it’s the Arabs all AROUND Israel who don’t accept it. It is my opinion that through an unfortunate coincidence of history, these people are incapable at the moment of NOT hating Jews and Israel. I’m excluding Iran, which I think is a different case. Hating Israel is a common cause that transcends nationalism, sectarianism, and illiteracy.
I certainly never said that Israel has anything to do with the Sunni-Shia divide. That’s literally ancient history. But Israel and the US cannot pretend there is no divide. For a while, the Arabs almost forgot that they hated the Persians/Shia because the apostate Shia were evidently doing more to help the Palestinian cause than the Salafists. I think of Iranians doth protest too much. Maybe it’s like the guy with the small unit and big SUV.
Now of course Israel doesn’t have to be at the “root” of a conflict to become engulfed in it. The Syrian war is a sectarian and political war. Israel certainly hasn’t been helping Assad, and recently bombed some Hezbollah hanging out near the border. Is Israel a Sunni country? Of course not. But if Israel were to consistently attack Assad/Hezbollah and refrain from attacking, say, ISIL, the man on the street might get the idea that the Israelis and Saudis are conspiring against the Shia – or that the Israelis don’t recognize any ideological distinction between a group like Hezbollah and a group like ISIL.
I don’t understand how you have gotten the impression that I somehow think Israel should be blamed for all problems in the region or that the Arabs outside Israel really care that much about those inside of it. Of course it’s been used as a boogie man. However, Arab hatred of Jews and especially Israel appears to be a mostly grassroots kind of deal these days. It is known that the Saudis and Emirates cooperate with Israel on security matters, but that cooperation is secret because it is the kind of thing that might push their otherwise docile populations over the edge.
I’m not asking for Israel to give up land or anything else for that matter! If the Israeli people – those who elect Netanyahu – believe that Israel should not concede an iota of the West Bank for whatever reason – be it religious, political, legal – then Netanyahu shouldn’t tell the American people that an Arab state in Israel is his goal. Maybe that gets some sympathy from the American public but it comes at the cost of US credibility. Now why hasn’t that happened? My guess is that Netanyahu knows it is not politically feasible in the near future for a variety of reasons.
So the real position is that Israel has the right to all the land, but Netanyahu says he supports an Arab state and would get started tomorrow if only there weren’t these security concerns. I call that citing security concerns to obfuscate intentions. I see a similar pattern of behavior with regard to Iran. Israel’s intelligence services do not think Iran is going to actually build a nuke and don’t see an Iranian nuke as an existential threat. The US DoD did a report a few years ago demonstrating how an Israeli attack on Iranian nuclear facilities would not be a slam dunk. It advised against such an attack. Nonetheless, of course there are risks – maybe Israel is really worried about proliferation in the Sunni states (which I would be VERY concerned about to be sure) – or maybe Netanyahu is just playing bad cop – but it sure seems the cited security concern (Iran’s building a bomb, Iran’s enriching to weapons-grade, Iran could enrich to weapons-grade, and so on) doesn’t jive with what he’s really concerned about – like a US-Iranian rapprochement or proliferation to Sunni states. And of course, there’s that election…
Obama is a useless individual and a consummate politician who decided to kick the can down the road and ignore the crazy national debt and expand entitlements.
However, I just don’t see how this line of criticism squares with reality. Sunni states like Saudi and UAE and to a lesser extent Egypt are the breeding grounds for al-Qaeda and ISIL; the MB is the biggest political organization in all of these states; the Salafists are not really well-known for their love of “US leadership.” Now who feels abandoned? The dictators. Obama left Mubarak out to dry, allowed Libya to descend into chaos, and (gasp) worst of all, engaged in diplomacy with Iran – the “head of the snake,” as the late and enlightened King Abdullah put it. The only people outside of government in these Sunni states who might have a lowered opinion of the US would be the intellectual and professional crust of society who are rightfully concerned about the implications of Salafists calling the shots.
I leave you with the conclusion of the US Army Strategic Studies Institute on this topic:
The fundamental problem of the close U.S.-Israeli alliance for the
moderate Arab states is that, at times of conflict between Israel and
an Arab country (or in this instance, during the Intifada involving
a proto-Palestinian state), it is very difficult for moderate Arab
states to sustain their alignment with the United States which they
need for their own external national security, and at the same time
maintain their domestic political legitimacy in the face of popular
hostility to Israel and the United States It therefore makes no sense
for any U.S. administration to tilt so much towards Israel that it
risks compromising the U.S. national interest in securing access to
reasonably priced Gulf oil by furthering that hostility and increasing
the chances that radical Islamists may come to power in one or
more GCC states. All of the principal options for the United States
to consider in resolving this dilemma carry substantial risks and
costs. The option of stepping down the U.S. relationship with Israel
jeopardizes a strategic asset. The long-term option of supporting
political reforms in the Middle East holds promise but requires
implementation in a deliberate manner to avoid being undermined 23
by radical Islamists. Certainly reducing American dependency on
Gulf oil imports will, over the long run, enhance U.S. energy security.
Nevertheless, it is necessary for the United States to restore a balanced
Middle East policy of supporting Israeli security while maintaining
good relations with the moderate Arab states. To do this, the United
States needs to engage in a determined effort to implement the Road
Map and achieve a fair and effective Palestinian-Israeli peace.
yamit82 Said:
I started responding to you last night and ran out of energy, but I’ll do my best to address your facts and opinions briefly.
Whether America “aids” or “bribes” Israel is obviously subjective and not a “fact,” but that aside, I agree with you. America does bribe Israel. That’s what aid, in my “opinion,” is. It’s a bribe, whether sent to Israel or India or Egypt or Haiti.
Again, let’s not confuse fact with opinion, however reasonable. The fact is that the US is by far the greatest arms exporter to the region (and the world). The Middle East is not unique in that regard. Now your opinion is that these arms exports force Israel to keep up with the Abdullahs and buy American defense system. Do you really think that it is some kind of coincidence that the countries that receive these arms are both former antagonists of Israel and current US allies? Surely you realize that the Egyptian military is the only institution standing between Israel and a major security problem from the Egyptian MB. Surely you realize that al-Qaeda hates the Saudi government for its alliance with the US and implicitly with Israel. Surely you realize that US support for the Lebanese government and military works against, rather than for, Hezbollah. You are assuming that US arms exports to regional states necessarily work against Israel; I would argue that the exact opposite is true.
Okay – now you present some facts. I agree that the US was not a great friend of Israel prior to 1974. I agree that US aid to Israel is largely or entirely a subsidy for American defense contractors. I agree that the US is the regional and global leader in arms exports. I agree that Israel was and was viewed as a major geopolitical prize for the US since the Nixon administration, especially in the context of the Cold War.
Again, where I completely disagree is your assumption that US arms exports to other regional powers have come at the expense of Israeli security. You mentioned parity as if $1.6 billion to Israel and $1 billion to the Egyptian military is a wash for Israel. I would argue that aid to US allies is of tremendous benefit to Israel. We know that there is a real, grassroots hatred of Israel and Jews in the region dating far before 1948. We know that the Egyptians under a nationalist (not religious) leadership were the major provocateurs prior to the US-brokered treaty. We know that terrorism against Israeli civilians is viewed quite positively by every public in the region. We know the kinds of governments that democracy and populism would produce – see Lebanon, today’s ISIL, Iran, Egypt under Morsi, Yemen, Libya, and of course Hamas in Gaza. Israel may have tremendous capability but it is outnumbered, in a precarious location with narrow borders, and hated by virtually all the population in the neighborhood. The weapons the US sends to dictatorships in the region are squarely aimed at the populations. Do you really think that Israel would benefit by the US ceasing aid to Egypt?
Let me first say that I’ve never said that the substnative aspect of US support for Israel was money (arms exports) to Israel. I think money helped a lot back in the 80’s, and I think it still buys some good will today, but again I would argue that a far more crucial aspect of US support for Israel is in its brokering of unpopular security arrangements with other states through bribes and security arrangements.
That said, I’ve now completely lost you. Your claim is basically that Israel’s allegiance has been a great deal for the US, perhaps comparing it to Iraq. I don’t see an iota of relevance. Iraq was an even cheaper client of the US in the 80’s when it invaded Iran. The proper comparison would be between the cost of invading Israel to versus that of invading Iraq, and I think we would both agree that it would be far more costly for the US to invade Israel. Also, you are assuming that the biggest or principal component of US support costs are in the form of direct aid. I would argue that the invasion of Iraq, for instance, was a tremendous benefit to Israel – certainly advocated by Likud and its ideological allies in the US – and so in the accounting of the costs of US support, one would take into account some portion of the cost of Iraq.
Also, I think you got the inflation adjustment backwards. Today’s dollars are worth less than 1980’s.
Now you’re bringing up ancient history, relatively speaking. We could talk about how Iran and Israel were tight before 1979 but I’m sure you would agree that it is silly to think that should be a major consideration today. The fact is that since 1974, the US has been the single most important ally to Israel while Israel has not been invaded by its sworn enemies despite intense Arab hatred. Again, is that a coincidence? You can bring a horse to the water but you can’t make him drink. The US occupied Iraq for a decade but still couldn’t get the Iraqis to entertain the notion of recognizing Israel. The US can’t make the Arab public reasonable and can’t make the Arab elite publicly reasonable.
By definition, US support of Israel is a component of US policy in the region to protect the American interest. In one sense, it isn’t really possible for said support to “prejudice” American interests. On the other hand, the “American interest” is a very subjective term. Ask 100 Americans what it means and you’ll get 100 answers. The support of Israel is based on the shared interests represented by the political leadership in each country. There are costs and benefits on both sides. I don’t know much about the costs to Israel – I’m sure they are significant – but I do know about the costs to the US. I suspect that Israel is less a less valuable geopolitical prize today than it was during the Cold War even though it has flourished since that time.
Finally, a rant:
I also suspect that many Americans – like myself – are generally deferential to Israel even when they suspect that the costs might exceed the benefits. Why? Because since the 80’s, most Americans have come to feel that Israel is the only country in the region that shares American values. But I have a harder time relating to the Israeli approach the Arabs in Gaza and the West Bank. I’m not saying I have any clue about what Israel ought to be doing – there’s no reference point in recent history. America never had a minority as numerous and militant as the Arabs, never faced hatred from every one of its neighbors, and was founded as an explicitly NON-sectarian, NON-ethnic state. Maybe the Puritans had it bad in England, and of course the blacks were mistreated until recently, but none of them went through the Holocaust. So I don’t presume to make any moral judgment about Israel’s actions in this regard.
However, I do think that Israeli leaders (and US politicians) should be open and honest about the facts on the ground. When Netanyahu equates Hezbollah, Iran, and ISIL, I feel he is being deliberately deceptive. The Israeli security services are nowhere near as hawkish on Iran. There have been several articles to that effect. The Iranian axis, however deplorable in its rhetoric, seems a million times preferable to the Salafist/Saudi axis. If the enemy of our enemy is not our friend, why does Israel cooperate with Saudi Arabia and the UAE? If settlements are a “bogus issue,” why are they always flashpoints for violence and politically-represented by ultra-nationalists? To hear Netanyahu explain it to the US media, his constituents and his country would embrace an Arab state if only there was a reasonable negotiating partner. Yet his own cabinet ministers and political base are fundamentally opposed to that position on a variety of grounds – the Arabs are hopeless, God intended Judea and Samaria to be inhabited by Jews, Israel won the land through conquest, the Israeli people have an ancient claim to the land, an Arab state would leave Israel with indefensible borders, both the Arabs and Jews would be better off if the Arabs left, etc. So when he speaks to the US media/Congress on such issues, I am left wondering what he and his constituents really think and, and whether he speaks as a capable statesman or superb politician.
Justin, the core of the conflict is a Jewish Town (settlement) here or there but the Palestinians do NOT accept a Jewish Nation State in the middle east and never have. The rest is a red herring. I suggest you go to this link and see a 5 minute video that explains in simple order.
http://www.prageruniversity.com/Political-Science/Middle-East-Problem.html#.VPmkXOFGh2A
Israel is not at the root of the Sunnis killing Shias and vice a versa. So the problems of the middle east is not Israel. Trust me killing a 100,000 plus Iraqis did not do the USAs popularity a lot of good in the middle east.
Just like all the problems in the former soviet union were blamed on the Americans, Israel had for a long time been blamed by Arab dictators and Kings to distract from their issues as the middle east buggie man.
Take a look at Lebanon and see how horribly they treated “Palestinians” who have 90% been born there (forced to live in camps, no citizenship, can not work in most jobs, subject to severe violence at times).
Justin, Israel is not going to give up land it believes it has a legal and historical right to, plus is vitally needed for security because this appeases some. This is basically what you keep try and asking the commentators on Israpundit. Since all commentators do not feel they have to control their indignation at suggestions that Israel should surrender its sovereign rights and security they bristle at people who suggest Israel forfeit its rights and security for this erroneous reason or that erroneous reason.
The USA is now unpopular in the middle east with the remaining Sunni Nations (Egypt, Jordan, UAE, Baharain….) because Obama has abandoned them to a Iran nuclear program plus he preferred the Muslim Brotherhood to long time ally Mubarak. What is going on in Iraq with Iranian troops at the head of the spear with Iraqi Shias in the attack on Tiqrit is what the Saudis are pointing as what they have been fearful of.
In your learning quest you are three steps behind. These Sunnis blame the USA for destabilizing the middle east by taking over Iraq in the past. Pro Israel policies is a minor blip. Most of these Arab countries do not really care about the Palestinians.
Bear Klein Said:
bernard ross Said:
Bernard, I really mean no harm. Maybe I deserve everything you’ve said about me and ten times more. But I hope you at least feel magnanimous and charitable enough to inform me why I have my facts or conclusions wrong.
I responded to AH because his post required the least comment. I started to respond to yamit82 but I ran out of energy to address all of his points. I declined to respond to you because I felt it would be counterproductive.
You claim that I will refuse to give evidence for any of my assumptions. That’s a fair statement because I haven’t provided much factual evidence so far. There’s a reason for that: I doubt we disagree on most of the facts. Nonetheless, I owe it to you to present the facts I feel are most relevant to my understanding of Israeli security and the US-Israel relationship.
First, it is popular to criticize or hate Israel in all of the Middle East and most of the West – the two blocs that can substantially affect Israel’s security. According to polls by Gallup in 2012 and Pew in 2013, there is no Middle East country (other than Israel) that sympathizes with Israel over the Palestinians by more than 9 percent – 3 percent if you exclude Turkey. In the UK, 62 percent of all adults agree that Israel has committed “war crimes.” 65 percent of French, 65 percent of Aussies, and 59 percent of Canadians viewed Israel “negatively” according to JPost in 2012. 17 of 22 countries polled viewed Israel negatively, with only the US, Kenya, and Nigeria voicing otherwise.
Second, the most commonly-cited charge against Israel is that it has violated what is called “international law” in injuring its Arab populations in the land it won in 1967. Specifically, its critics will almost universally claim that Israel has illegitimately occupied, besieged, or harassed the Arabs in the conquered territories. Recently it has become popular to cite specific alleged violations, especially settlement activity in the West Bank and/or treatment of civilians in Gaza. In 2013, a Pew poll indicates that the plurality (35 percent) of Israeli Jews believe that settlements “hurt” Israel’s security to 31 percent that believe they “help” Israel’s security. In February 2011, the UNSC voted 14-1 to condemn settlements; the resolution failed thanks to the US veto.
Third, no other nation has come close to the US in the totality of its overt, direct support for Israel, especially since 1974. The US has intervened in dozens of UNSC resolutions and hundreds of UNGA resolutions against Israel. The US has provided Israel with 120 BB in direct aid since 1949, almost all of which came after 1974. In per-capita terms, Israelis have received by far the most US foreign aid since 1974. For instance, Israel received about $400 per capita in 2012, second only to NATO-occupied Afghanistan ($450). The US has provided Israel with the most current military capability of any ally, especially in terms of air superiority.
Fourth, Israel was the target of overt Arab state invasion three times between 1949 and 1973. This was a period in which US support was lukewarm. Since then, Israel has not been invaded by any state and has signed peace treaties with its most capable neighbors – Egypt and Jordan – whose populations are extremely antisemitic and anti-Israeli but whose governments are very friendly with the US. In its conflicts before 1973, Israel lost about 10,000 soldiers (and even more civilians). Afterwards, Israel lost fewer than 3,000 troops – mostly in wars with Lebanon. So increased US support for Israel has at least coincided with fewer military casualties despite larger populations on all sides.
Fifth, anti-American Salafist groups like al-Qaeda, ISIL, Hamas, and Ansar al-Sharia universally cite US support for Israel (and the Arab dictators) as their biggest inspirations for violence against American civilians. Anti-American Shia extremists like the Iranians and their allies focus almost exclusively on American support for Israel. The very anti-Islamist website “TheReligionOfPeace” lists all Islamist terrorism against US civilians. The earliest instance is in 1973. Since then it has only gotten worse in scale and incidence.
Sixth, and crucially, the Israeli government has adopted policies that even the most pro-Israeli US Presidents have all opposed, like annexing all of Jerusalem, building settlements in the West Bank, building certain security barriers, and espionage activity that the NSA (via Snowden-leaked documents) identified in 2007 (under Bush admin) as the most capable, concerning, and subversive among all nations (including even US enemies). To be fair, India was also on this list, and France spies on the US all the time – so Israel is not unique in this regard among US allies – but the NSA felt that Israel was the greatest concern because of its unique combination of access and capability.
It took me a bit to think about and write this, so before I go any further (if you are interested) I would like to know whether you basically concur with these facts. They are NOT intended to describe the most salient features of the US-Israel relationship – obviously I’ve left out a lot of the good that Israel has done for the US and others – but they ARE what I think are the most important facts relating to the “down side” of the relationship from the US perspective.
honeybee Said:
😀
yamit82 Said:
Vincent Van Gag !!!!!!!!!!!!
honeybee Said:
Sometimes the red spurts out as Yellow. Those are my favorites.
yamit82 Said:
Kosher kill ????? Can I paint it. Love the various tones and shades of red.
@ yamit82:
Because he is a fake. I predict that in spite of his protestations of seeking reasonable dialogue that he will do exactly what he did last time: refuse to give evidence or support for ANY of his accusations or assertions AND run away without answering the questions and facts posted in reply to his accusations and assertions. He took the time to reply to AH but did not support any of his assertions, nor answer to your facts rebutting his assertions, nor answer to my specific questions on approximately 10 assertions which he made. Its a repeat of last time except he has not stuck out his head as far for the chopping.
bernard ross Said:
Why not after all that time I expended for his benefit?
honeybee Said:
Hardly you should see what I can do with a knife. Very entertaining and the way I can do it is slow and even entertaining if you have a strong constitution. 😉
@ honeybee:
Nope this was very short and concise.
@ yamit82:
A short sharp dagger???? And deny the community of a nice Saturday afternoon activity.
rongrand Said:
I will as HB suggested, give him enough rope. 🙂
I prefer a short sharp dagger.
@ yamit82:
yamit82 Said:
Longorherra ???????
Dandaman Said:
Didn’t know we have met before unless you were commenting under a different name here. Were you???
As to me getting it or not there is one thing I do get and that is I have you pegged from your first comment under your current screen name. Pegged as what????? You should know by now.
Another comment got Spam Botted?? What gives?????
Libertarianism is a blank-slate society. Everyone is entitled to anything. Looks like a nice freedom until we realize that absence of value is itself a value. The libertarian value is: You shall have no values
Libertarian societies lack values. They proclaim freedom to be their value, but freedom is the absence of restraints, while values are restraints. Freedom is the opposite of values.
Libertarian societies abrogate values, and then abandon responsibility. They become quasi-socialist welfare states.
Libertarianism is not an honest intellectual position, but a rationalization of fear. No human being enjoys alien practices. Affluent people want to make the most use of their wealth, and reject values along with other behavioral restrictions. Affluent people fear for their wealth, refrain from violence, and don’t want to repress deviants. Encountering no resistance, deviants take over societies.
Values are commonly connected to restrictions. Since values cannot be justified rationally, courts often strike down the restrictions.
Does this describe you Justin????
Justin Said:
My husband’s [ TX] paternal family is from Alsace. They immigrated to Castroville, Texas in 1845.
http://www.castroville.com/
Ted Belman Said:
GOT A ROPE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
rongrand Said:
Yamit82 doesn’t care what you call him, as long as you call him for supper !!!!!!
@ yamit82: I disagree totally! No way no how, have I ever known you to “get it.”
@ Justin:
Why have you not still answered to Yamits posted “FACTS”?
https://www.israpundit.org/archives/63605153/comment-page-1#comment-63356000152989
I thought you were seeking “reasonable discussion”?
Justin Said:
this is one of the left wing muslim myths being propagated today.
Are you aware that that the Jews have acquired and derived legal right under the most internationally binding legal documents(LON mandate, UN charterArt80)to settle in YS and that these rights are uncanceled, unrescinded and unexpired? Are you aware that the terms illegal and illegitimate are in fact libelous and lies and have absolutely no legal basis as well as no historical or moral basis that does not involve double standards? Anyone who has read teh history in detail can see that lies and libels are being propagated with every statement. Are you aware that Israel has fully satisfied UNSC 242 wrt the west bank land dispute by its treaty with Jordan? Are you aware that the PA, PLO have no legal right under 242 to any west bank sovereignty in spite of lies to the contrary? Do you believe that the pals have a superior right to Jews in the west bank? Do you believe that vacant land in the west bank should belong to the “pals” rather than the Jews even though internationally binding legal documents called for the “facilitation of Jewish immigration and encouragement of Jewish settlement” in the palestine mandate territory? Do you believe that the partition UNGA resolution 181 has any legal value today? Do you beleive your president and your MSM who refer to Jews in YS as illegal or illegitimate, have you checked to see if they are telling the truth or whether they are abject serial and chronic liars as I aver here without a shred of doubt?
If you have real knowledge in any of these areas then you can enter serious discussion, if not, I suggest you read more before making false allegations and spreading libel
@ yamit82:
Yamit you have been called many things, this is a new one.
I see Dandaman doesn’t know you.
He is treading in unknown waters and will be swallowed up soon.
Dandaman Said:
I get it now, you are a wannabe Vulcan attempting a virtual Vulcan mind meld but unfortunately you are not a real Vulcan and have no mind to meld virtual or real.
While you addressed your comment to Justin it is not clear who you referred to: “we just found our new poster boy for logorrhea.”
If you were being self descriptive then I fully agree.
Seeing you can’t make yourself clear with few words, maybe a few hundred might be helpful.
Justin Said:
explain and give evidence or support for each of the 3 false allegations above
Explain and support. My readings of libertarians is that although they may be for not giving money or being involved in foreign situations I have never read of a significant number of them having the perspective that Israel is illegitimate, illegal or provocative in the settlement of Jews. following is an article showing rand Paul position.
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/rand-paul-problem-gifs-mocking-153352588.html
You cannot consider Israel to be provocative without at the same time considering her to be illegitimate as does the left.
Explain, support tell why you consider her policies provocative.
I do not beleive you could have read so much here and been exposed to facts cited here and still not have your overall view affected. That is why I do not believe you have been reading here.
Please demonstrate where you initiated “reasoned” dialogue. Posting covert gratuitous insults, false allegations, assertion of false facts, refusing to cite evidence are considered by reasonable people to be the exact opposite of “seeking reasoned dialogue”. You can disprove my assertion by answering and supporting your assertions which I list here.
How does this comment jibe with our daily forays into this topic and with your suspect assertion that you read this site?
How does this comment jibe with our daily forays into this topic and with your suspect assertion that you read this site? YOU HAVE STILL NOT ANSWERED MY QUESTIONS TO YOU REGARDING THE F35 DISCUSSIONS ON THIS SITE This will prove whether you read here or just gratuitously lie.
Please enumerate the “effective guarantees”
Please explain ( 😛 😛 😛 ) and give evidence (beyond a couple of isolated political publications) for this incredibly ludicrous comment
I am still searching for ONE SINGLE FACT, regarding Israel, which you have introduced into this conversation or in the past.
we will know whether you are interested ins SERIOUS discussion or covert libel if and when you answer to the above.
Justin Said:
You bad intentions were not assumed by your disagreement, as many disagree here, but rather by your continued false allegations in spite of evidence to the contrary couple with the FACT that you NEVER support your false allegations with any cited evidence or reasoned thought. It is cited evidence and reasoned thought which enable discussion unless you are habituated to Israel bashing amen choruses where evidence and reason are notably absent.
Justin Said:
If you were speaking frankly and honestly you could not be advancing false allegations without support and when provided evidence to the contrary you would not be continuing with the same MO as you still do now. Actions and behavior speak louder than words.
Justin Said:
the very end of your last sentience demonstrates that you still dishonestly advance falsehood. You appear to be saying that the posters here who called you out are “ideologues who reject critical thinking”. Nothing could be further than the truth: critical thinking is what is respected here but you have NOT ONE SINGLE TIME in all your posts here demonstrated that you engage in critical thinking.
You may begin to show that you are engaged in critical thinking by giving the evidence and support for your statement that we are “ideologues who reject critical thinking”. If you keep running away from requests for you to support your ludicrous allegations then you can only be considered by intelligent people to be dishonest.
@ yamit82:
I get it now, you’re an Internet newbie and you haven’t a clue what a “@” means. It’s also possible you need a thousand-word essay before you understand the point.
Ted Belman Said to Yamit:
Arnold was first to the insult:
ArnoldHarris Said:
….
these are personal insults made without checking with me as to why I made the comments, just assuming they were made in a vacuum. Therefore, they were gratuitious insults:
However, I did not reply to AH’s gratuitous insults intemperately or with malice as I do not consider him dishonest. Therefore, I only explained the reason behind my accusations but I still stand firmly by them and included this most recent post of Justin as continuing support for my accusation.
Therefore Yamits response to AH was no more insulting than the AH comment.
In fact, a repetitive component of Justins MO is the covert gratuitous insult:
Justin Said:
If Israels policies are provocative it assumes that Israel is not morally or legally in YS. If Israel is not legally in YS then neither are the Jews. therefore the Jews are stealing the pals land, committing apartheid and are engaged in illegal settlement and therefore the settlers are extremist, zionist racist jews who believe in the extremist view that Jews belong in YS and Israel.
My perspective is that not only are these lies personal insults to all Jews but also that these lies are synonymous with those in the history of the Jewish people where lies,libels and propaganda preceded incitement and ultimately murder, pogroms and genocide against the Jews. They are the same as blood libels. Therefore my personal perspective is that those who are telling lies on the Jewish people and Israel are attempting the murder of the Jewish people and as such should be viewed as existential enemies.
Note that Justin has not in his latest post cited any evidence or reasoned thought to support any of his latest assertions and accusations. Therefore, I must conclude that he continues with his same dishonest MO of hurling lies and gratuitous insults at Israel as the proxy for the Jewish people. if his MO changes my perspective will change. If he is ignorant rather than dishonest then he can read history and alternate sources for his facts. Had he actually been here reading, as he alleged, he would have been privy through the months to many such cited posts.
@ yamit82:
Since I do not know how they voted in the past and I have no crystal ball I do not really have a good way of figuring this out!
One electro-magnetic nuclear bomb over Iran will fry all their electronics and electrical devices, will Bibi have the batzim to use it?
I say saving Israel is certainly worth it! Do it preemptively NOW!
@ yamit82:
None of what you accuse me of is true. Read my comment.
By the way, why did you trash Arnold? Restrain yourself.
ArnoldHarris Said:
It’s funny you mention that because I’ve always supported Rand Paul (and been sympathetic to his father but never felt he could actually run a country like the US) but keep doubting his electability and competence the more I hear him goof up. Walker seems like a middle-of-the-road guy who gets things done, but he’s definitely not a libertarian. The more I learn, the more Rand Paul’s positions seem unrealistic – especially with regard to foreign policy. I think his heart is in the right place but that the world is too complicated (with our existing commitments to ***holes like Saudi and Uzbekistan and Kuwait and the rest) to actually apply his ideology.
Thanks for serving in the army. I’m lucky and happy that I won’t have to unless there’s some cataclysmic war. Also, I’m half-Korean and half-white (family from Alsace-Lorraine), and based on the way the two Koreas have went, I’m glad the US intervened over there!
Thanks for your reply. I freely admit that I’ve probably thought and said things in the past that were just completely ignorant and uninformed and wrong. Who hasn’t? And what is the point of an Internet forum or comments section if not to allow everyday people to voice their opinion, however uninformed or ignorant it is? Wouldn’t it be better to enlighten someone than to demonize someone who is ignorant or misinformed in some way? Obviously these are rhetorical questions but they go to the center of the reason I replied to Ted: it isn’t healthy to assume bad intentions just because somebody disagrees with you. It hurts your cause and narrows your mind. It’s one thing to say Israel is some unique purveyor of unprecedented war crimes that controls the US through some shadowy lobby. I consider that stupid at best and probably antisemitic or xenophobic at heart. That is the American left’s position. Mine is different. I respect Israel, I think its neighbors are mostly insane, but I think that it is healthy to at least speak frankly and honestly about the US-Israel relationship. That includes both condemning idiots who think it is some evil mafia-like racist criminal state but also idealogues who reject critical thinking.
Dandaman Said:
Dandaman Said:
@ yamit82:
Who? Go back to my post and see for yourself.