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  1. @ Bernard Ross:

    Cowboy [a very crafty cowboy] does not trust EPA so he likes Canadian oil shale. Obama does not like Texas. Also Yamit is a terrible flirt, a true son of King David

  5. Honey Bee Said:

    I love reading the comments and verbous argumentment between dweller and Yamit82.

    Me too, sometimes I am rolling on the floor laughing. Both have exposed me to some very interesting facts and perspectives. Yamit has made me think about Torah differently and re assess some of my perspectives. Michael is extremely amusing too(I had never encountered a Noahide), especially with his sayings (I loved the latest about Pal violence and bowel movements, etc) Many others have come up with interesting ideas and facts.

  7. Reg Vernon Said:

    This is a valuable and interesting discussion. I feel as though I’m being educated. I thought I was well read on the issues but, it seems, not as well as I should or could be. So thanks to all who have contributed so far.

    My sentiments too. Up until 10 years ago I had completely different ideas regarding what the real facts are and what real possibilities exist. Like so many, I assumed that the Pals, and muslims, “were like everyone else” and they just wanted to live in peace and raise their families. Thus they would come to a permanent agreement. I was also clueless about the REAL modern history of the Jews and Israel. I had no idea that there had been continuing swindles of the Jewish people, and of Israel, and the continuing extent of those swindles. Perhaps this is why I am so pushy on pursuing the legal cases bcause I think that not enough Jews are appraised of the facts and would be a lot more pissed off if they were. I began to use the internet for my news sources and also began to read Israeli media on a daily basis. My opinion has completely changed. I see no current realistic possibility for a lasting peace with the Pals or the arabs. RE the Pals I believe that the west bank should be annexed and most of the Pals should be in Jordan as that is a JEW FREE state occupying 77% of the former Palestine mandate. If not to Jordan they can be unilaterally deposited across any contiguous hostile border. As long as Pals remain west of the Jordan river, whether by occupation or other structure, they must be under the iron grip of Israel. I believe that solutions must be devised that are unilateral and depend ONLY on Israel. I do not agree that the west bank pals should get citizenship of Israel when annexed. They were Jordanian citizens and Jordan unilaterally withdrew their citizenship, not Israels fault or problem. There is much that Israel can accomplish unilaterally but, in most cases, a majority of Israelis must agree. In the case of Jewish settlement, unrelated to Israeli sovereignty, of YS I believe there is a possibility to accomplish this, without an Israeli majority and without the willing support of the GOI, through legal means. As the legal case for jewish settlement is unassailable it should be pursued even without success. I went off on my usual tangent but wanted to say that I also have received an education from many of the posters. Kudos to Ted for providing this venue and attracting some intelligent contributors.

  10. This is a valuable and interesting discussion. I feel as though I’m being educated. I thought I was well read on the issues but, it seems, not as well as I should or could be. So thanks to all who have contributed so far. Perhaps the discussion has helped others, who read but do not reply, to think about these issues too. I hope that I have Israel’s best interests at heart but it has been 57 years since I lived there and whilst my historical perspective is partisan, I try to be realistic. My remarks reflect the views that I have developed but I recognise that those whose experience of conflict is more direct and personal are entitled to feel differently.

  13. dweller Said:

    We’re looking at a group pathology MASQUERADING as a political phenomenon

    well said: perhaps if this were to be acknowledged the paradigms would shift.

  14. @ Reg Vernon:

    “Islamic peoples can accommodate relations with non-Muslims if it is to their advantage. Those Muslims who live in secular societies are able to adapt”

    With all due respect, Reg, this is apples & oranges.

    The historical milieu makes the situation with the Jews inescapably sui generis:

    “To the best of my knowledge, there was never a time when Muslims lived under Jewish sovereignty — where could such a thing have happened? Christian dhimmi had non-dhimmi co-religionists in other lands who were powerful and at times even ruled over Muslims; such a thing was inconceivable for Jews. [Moroever,] when such a possibility was finally proposed, in the twentieth century, it provoked generations of violent rejection. It took the Christian world more than 1,500 years of coexistence, two hundred years of Enlightenment, and the paroxysm of the Holocaust to bring itself even to begin dismantling its accepted lies about the Jews, in the early 1960’s. But while Europe had been grappling with its relationship to the Jews for centuries, Islam faced its first serious conflict with Judaism only in the twentieth century. Any expectation that this conflict would be quickly and rationally resolved flies in the face of history.”

    [Ya’acov Lozowick, Right to Exist: A Moral Defense of Israel’s Wars (Doubleday/Random, NY, 2003), 102]

    “If the Arabs end up outnumbering the Jews, then what becomes of Israel’s raison d’être, to be a Jewish state and the state of the Jews?”

    “It may be a risk worth taking.”

    WHAT, specifically, “may be a risk worth taking”?

    “But in the long term I repeat that war after war is not the answer.”

    That’s good counsel. May I suggest you tell it to the enemy; they need to hear it

    — because they start the wars. War after war. . . .

    “If Israel relies only on its military potential…”

    But Israel DOESN’T rely “only on its military potential” — there is no country on the face of the planet that is in even remotely as constant a state of peril as Israel

    — and yet goes to anywhere NEAR the lengths that Israel does to find alternative routes of resolution than military ones.

    “…then [Israel] may have to seek to dominate and control the entire region – I don’t see that as a realistic possibility.”

    Nor do I — at the present time.

    However (and you can take this any way you like) — the Jewish People is eternal.

  16. I appreciate all of the comments that have so far been made in response to my original message.
    @ Roberta E. Dzubow: I was assuming that Arabs living in the West bank are not ‘in Israel’ for the purposes of civil rights. My assumption is that they are not Israeli citizens. If I’m wrong I stand corrected. My remarks were only applicable to those Arabs. I am well aware that Arabs in Israel have full citizenship and civil rights.
    @ dweller: The thrust of your emarks are completely relevant and I am grateful to you for writing. I agree with you that Islam does not treat infidels as equals – but Islamic peoples can accommodate relations with non-Muslims if it is to their advantage. Those Muslims who live in secular societies are able to adapt. In the UK, France etc they are constantly asserting their desire for sharia and the maintenance of their own cultural norms and I find the unwillingness to defend historical social and religious values in the face of their demands an insidious trend. But as long as they are minorities, it’s not a big problem.
    However, you say “If the Arabs end up outnumbering the Jews, then what becomes of Israel’s raison d’être, to be a Jewish state and the state of the Jews?” There are people who are currently asserting that the demographic timebomb is not a problem. I have an open mind on this and many other aspects of the situation. It may be a risk worth taking.
    Finally, whatever happens, Hamas and Hizbollah have to be disarmed, and it will cost lives to do so. That, I’m afraid, is inevitable. It must be achieved when Israel has the tools to do what it has to do at minimum cost. Technology may provide the answer. But in the long term I repeat that war after war is not the answer. If Israel relies only on its military potential then it may have to seek to dominate and control the entire region – I don’t see that as a realistic possibility.

  17. @ Reg Vernon:

    “It seems to me that sooner or later Israel has to bite the bullet and agree to share the land…”

    Newsflash! (since it seems you never got the bulletin):

    — Israel ALREADY agreed to share the land.

    In 1921, 80 percent of Palestine — Trans-jordanian Palestine (also known then as “Eastern Palestine”) — was gouged out of the Jewish National Home

    — so those Arabs who couldn’t stand the idea of confronting Jews as equals (what a concept!) would have place to go that was free of Jews.

    That left 20 percent of Palestine for the Jews — Cis-jordanian Palestine (also known then as “Western Palestine,” because it was the part west of the river).

    But it didn’t end there.

    The 20 percent was split up again in 1947.

    Only the Arabs wanted the whole enchilada (what was left of the enchilada) — so they gambled “double-or-nothing”

    — and lost.

    I say: when you lose, you lose.

    And that he who resorts to arms

    — implicitly accepts the verdict of arms.

    Here’s my question for you:
    At what point do we decide that we’ve done with jewing-down the Jews?

    And how do we recognize when we’ve reached that point?

    “…annexing all of the territories west of the Jordan…”

    Okay, that part works.

    “… and … giving all Arabs living in the Israel with Palestine full citizenship rights and representation in the Knesset.”

    Suppose you show me HOW that part works.

    If the Arabs end up outnumbering the Jews, then what becomes of Israel’s raison d’être, to be a Jewish state and the state of the Jews?

    (You don’t expect the Jewish people to pass on that

    — do you?)

    “Of course, Hamas and other similar organisations would have to be disarmed completely first…”

    Right, and given the lifestyle to which they’ve accustomed themselves all this time, they’d just turn on a dime and take up

    — needlepoint?

    “Rather than being a civil rights movement with a terrorist element, Palestinian nationalism has proved itself a terror-based movement dressed in civil rights garb.”
    [Daniel Gordis, Saving Israel: How the Jewish People can win a war that may never end (John Wiley & Sons, Hoboken, NJ 2009), p. 3]

    “But my guess is that citizenship, well-paid jobs, educational opportunities, fantastic healthcare etc will more than outweigh the jihadist zeal of the trouble-makers.”

    Your “guess”? — well, that’s nice.

    How many Jewish lives are you prepared to bet on that “guess”? — I’m not being cute.

    You assume that in this conflict you are dealing with the paradigm so familiar to Western history.

    After all, most of Israel’s founders — coming, as they did, from Europe — quite naturally made the same assumption.

    They turned out to be dreadfully WRONG. Some of them lived to see that.

    — Many did not.

    We’re looking at a group pathology MASQUERADING as a political phenomenon.

  18. @ Reg Vernon:

    “They simply do not accept that Israel, as a nation state exclusively for the Jews has any right at all to exist.”

    That’s only part of it. A small part.

    They don’t accept that Jews should be regarded as their EQUALS.

    If you find it inconceivable that in this day-&-age, Arabs could retain deep-seated feelings that were considered passe in the West with the advent of the Enlightenment hundreds of yrs ago

    — then Google “dhimmitude.”

    “Arafat never felt able to sign any kind of peace treaty”

    Oh, come on now.

    Arafat & Fatah never had any trouble signing anything.

    — They just never carried out the promises they signed on to.

    Arafat would’ve autographed the Western Wall in HEBREW — if, in return, you’d have GIVEN the freakin’ thing to him.@ Reg Vernon:

    “They simply do not accept that Israel, as a nation state exclusively for the Jews has any right at all to exist.”

    That’s only part of it. A small part.

    They don’t accept that Jews should be regarded as their EQUALS.

    If you find it inconceivable that in this day-&-age, Arabs could retain deep-seated feelings that were considered passe in the West with the advent of the Enlightenment hundreds of yrs ago

    — then Google “dhimmitude.”

  19. @ Reg Vernon:
    I want to correct a misconception. Arabs in Israel ARE Israeli citizens. They have the same rights as the other citizens. (Except they are not drafted for the IDF). They serve in the Knesset, are judges, one is on the Supreme Court. They get the same opportunities for schooling – including University, same health care in the hospitals, being treated with the same fine care. Their health, live births, life expectancy, is better in Israel than in almost every Arab country. Arabic is a legal Israeli language. Israel’s signs are in Hebrew, Arabic, and English. Rights of Religion are respected. Over one and one half million Arabs are Israeli citizens. In addition to Muslims, Christians, Ba’hai, Vietnamese, Hindus, who are citizens, Israel is also now giving sanctuary to over 50,000 Africans (in Tel Aviv alone). The land and the freedoms ARE shared by the Israelis. It is Muslim/Islamic countries that refuse Jewish inhabitants. Over 100,000 Coptic Christians have come to the US to flee Egypt and Islam. More are on the way.

  20. It is expected that Obama will bully Israel and harm it in every way he can. His anti-Semitism and anti-Israel bigotry has been obvious long before he reached Washington, and continues to be obvious. Whether or not he is actually a Muslim is not material: the fact is that he is so biased and in favor of the worst aspects of Islam that even if he isn’t a Muslim, he acts as one. Obama also has personal enmity toward Israel’s Prime Minister Netanyahu. Obama has aided the destruction of non-radical Arab governments, has empowered and encouraged the violent Muslim Brotherhood, and is pushing the Mideast toward war. I also note that as to Ira’s nuclear program, Obama has done nothing but claim to negotiate and threaten to impose economic sanctions (few of which actually are implemented, and are meaningless anyhow because they are sabotaged by Europe).

    Meanwhile Obama is silent as the terrorists fire thousands of rockets and mortars at Israel, but flies into a fit when Israel … finally … takes some careful measured steps against the Gaza-based terrorists.

  21. There will come a time when Israel must be an ally of either or preferably both Russia and China. That will enable governments of Israel to say bye-bye to needing to pretend that Israel is or ever has been a reasonably-treated ally of the USA. I know of no American governments whatsoever that have treated Israel and the Jewish nation as anything more than a nuisance which blocks this or that desultory plan of more or less all the US administrations since World War II to turn the Arab countries or any other part of the Muslim world into Western-style democracies, for the sake of which they would abandon Israel altogether.

    It is time to face the objective reality of this endlessly self-delusional situation from the standpoint of the Jewish nation.

    The kind of superpower allies that Israel really needs are countries that will turn a blind eye toward Israel’s future conquests and annexations of neighboring enemy Arab states, most of which are managed by blatherskite regimes that tumble like pins in a bowling alley whenever their street mobs gather in sufficient force. Russians and Chinese could not care less about democracy. Neither do I, and neither should any other Jew. I respect only governments that know how to hold onto power and exercise that power in the interests of themselves and their friends.

    America was once that kind of country. Now, it has become more of an increasingly defunct super-corporation than a real country. Sexual perverts are being granted rights of homosexual marriage. Some of the US states are busy making dangerous narcotics available for general recreational purpose. Vast numbers of illegal immigrants are being allowed into this country, turning this into just another multi-national state, few of which survive as united entities more than a couple of centuries. The manufacturing economy here has largely disappeared, as the ownership class moves their investments into foreign countries where they can get their products fabricated by far cheaper labor. Governments are now openly elected by whichever gang offers the most in publicly-funded entitlement payments to an increasingly unemployed, unemployable and indigent population. The public schools house overpayed teachers who preach the religion of social liberalism to the children put into their care, who find upon graduation from either high schools or universities that there is no form of private employment for which they have any training. The armed forces are sent to fight wars which their civilian bosses do not permit them to win. Meantime, this country’s overbuilt physical infrastructure is crumbling as bridges fall into rivers and broken highways help kill motorists. The once finest passenger trains in the world have all but disappeared, and the freight traffic systems of about a dozen other countries are all far superior that their American counterparts. The latest national disgrace is that USA astronauts must now be lifted into space on Russian spacecraft manned by their cosmonauts, and the first colony on the Moon and perhaps Mars as well are much more likely to be Chinese than American.

    I wish all this were different. My grandparents migrated westward from Russia in the 19th century. I was born and raised in this country, 78 years ago. I served the military of this country over a three-year period more almost 60 years ago. I was filled with pride in our 1945 victory and the retelling of the herculean efforts of the armies of the US civil war in the 1860s. But all that now is disappearing.

    You Jews in Israel, don’t permit yourselves to be dragged down by whatever happens to us over here. Build the power of the Jewish nation, and the independence which alone stems from having that kind of power and being fully aware of it.

    Arnold Harris
    Mount Horeb WI

  24. Conventional “wisdom”, perpetuated by mass media, wrongheaded academics, prejudiced or ignorant talking heads, posits that Jewish settlements in Judea and Samaria are ilegal.

    That prejudgement is a convenient lie of antisemitic propaganda geared to delegitimize the State of Israel as one of the several fronts on which Israel’s enemies attempt her destruction…. In this case through lawfare http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawfare .

    The Palestinian Authority and Hamas’ sole purpose is the destruction of Israel, not the creation of a peaceful second Arab Palestinian state wedged between Jordan (the current Arab Palestinian state since 1948) and Israel.

    Such a state would only serve as staging ground for attacks on Israel, as seen in Gaza since 2005 when the State of Israel removed all Jewish presence from the Gaza Strip. Such unilateral move was an error which only prompted Gaza terrorists to shell Israeli cities for years.

    I encourage you to review Gen. Ettinger’s report which follows (topic 6 delves specifically of the legitimacy of Jewish settlements in Judea and Samaria).

    The Levy Report has similar conclusions: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levy_Report

    The legitimacy’s legal arguments are further explained in some of these references: https://www.google.com.pe/#hl=es&tbo=d&sclient=psy-ab&q=levy+report+israel+text&oq=%22levy+report%22&gs_l=hp.1.3.0i19l4.0.0.1.320.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0..0.0…0.0…1c.MebQGg7Av74&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.r_qf.&fp=64effe3c5357555c&bpcl=39650382&biw=1366&bih=571

    Fact Checking Judea and Samaria Settlements

    http://www.theettingerreport.com/OpEd/OpEd—Israel-Hayom/Fact-Checking-Judea-and-Samaria-Settlements.aspx

  25. Palestinians, whether Hamas, Fatah or any other organisation. are not interested in a political settlement that entrenches in any way the right of Jews to settle in and inhabit any of the territory formerly known as Palestine-transJordan. They regard Israel and its inhabitants as an alien cancer to be eliminated by any means possible. They simply do not accept that Israel, as a nation state exclusively for the Jews has any right at all to exist. That’s why they obfuscate at every turn. It’s why Arafat never felt able to sign any kind of peace treaty or agree to any territorial compromise. Truth is, if he had done, his own people would have killed him.
    It seems to me that sooner or later Israel has to bite the bullet and agree to share the land by first, annexing all of the territories west of the Jordan and second, giving all Arabs living in the Israel with Palestine full citizenship rights and representation in the Knesset. Of course, Hamas and other similar organisations would have to be disarmed completely first. This may seem a bit ‘pie-in-the-sky’ but time will tell. Israel cannot forever live with its back to the sea and always relying on its massive military potential – because in the final analysis it can never be enough.
    If, having gained citizenship and equal rights, Palestinians don’t like it no-one will prevent them from leaving for a better life elsewhere. But my guess is that citizenship, well-paid jobs, educational opportunities, fantastic healthcare etc will more than outweigh the jihadist zeal of the trouble-makers. And the peace dividend will be massive.

  28. What is never mentioned is that Jews have a guaranteed international legal right of settlement west of the Jordan River and that, in the absence of an agreement to the contrary,that right continues unexpired. This needs to be the focus of attention. In this broadcast the reason given is that the pals are in opposition because they want to drive jews out of all of Israel. NEVER is the guaranteed international legal right of settlement mentioned as the SOLE reason to continue to settle jews. The apparent cessation of Jewish settlement over the years, in the hopes of reaching an agreement of peace, has now reached a point where everyone assumes that these rights never existed even in the absence of an agreement! The possibility of giving up jewish rights for peace has now become a reality even without the peace. It is said “USE IT OR LOSE IT”