By Ted Belman
Will Mahmood Abbas have a nother shot at obtaining UN recongnition of Palestine this fall?
Jonathan Schanzer in his article, If at first you don’t succeed…, in Foreign Policy seems to think its possible.
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According to Palestinian negotiator Saeb Erekat, the PLO, which is leading the charge to Turtle Bay, is now following the lead of a different regional player: Qatar. In late March, Erekat announced that the Palestinian leadership had reached an agreement with Doha to try again at the U.N. Other Palestinian insiders confirm that the Qataris are leading the charge, and one former official says they’re even funding the legal effort for the PLO, producing analysis on the costs and benefits of the statehood initiative.
This is one more example of Qatar growing activism in the ME. It was instrumental in getting the UN to pass a no-fly zone in Libya leading to Gaddafi’s downfall and it is funding the Syrian opposition to bring about the fall of Assad. Qatar is the bridge between the MB including Hamas, and the US. Now it has taken up the Palestinian cause.
The Palestinians, notwithstanding such resistance from the Great White North, actually have broad international support for their initiative.
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The PLO’s Negotiations Affairs Department claims that 128 countries back the notion of a Palestinian state, and the number could be as high as 140. Either way, this is enough support at the General Assembly, in the words of Abbas during a recent trip to Paris, “to obtain the status of nonmember state, as is the case for the Vatican.”
But Abbas will need to weigh this international support against the wall of resistance he’s getting from Washington. In an interview with the Saudi Okaz newspaper, Erekat said that U.S. President Barack Obama’s administration was threatening to suspend aid and close down the PLO mission in Washington if the Palestinians returned to the U.N.
Obama cannot afford to stand back and watch the Palestinians play for statehood as he campaigns for his reelection. If the Palestinians make it across the finish line at the General Assembly, Obama’s domestic critics will charge that he threw Israel under the bus.
Obama would love a chance to prevent such recognition during his re-election campaign. But if he is re-elected, he will no doubt threaten Israel with abstention next time around as he did first time around.
Bernard Ross Said:
I hope this thread may continue for awhile so that I could answer all of your questions. In the interest of time, let me post two web references that could potentially answer all of your questions. My main purpose in posting on this website regarding Yeshua is to respond to questions raised by some individuals.I like to continue posting on this website on non-religious issues. For those who may want to know about Yeshua Messiah, I would like to share what I know about Him. Yeshua is on of the reasons the name of Israel is well known around the world, despite the despicable acts done in the name of Christianity by those who were Christians in name only. Let me post two credible websites that could potently answer your questions. If not, if I am allowed to assist you further on this website, I will try to answer any question that you may have from Torah or/and the Christian Bible. Please go to theses web sites:
http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Names_of_G-d/Messiah/messiah.html and http://www.shema.com/messianic_judaism.php.
@ TTW:
Perhaps Ted’s warning may feel harsh to you, but then please reflect on the name of this blog: ISRAPUNDIT.
I can see how discussing the issue of legality of Jews living in Judea-Samaria is relavant to Israel. Likewise the subject of transferring the Pal-Arabs to Jordan. However the subject matter that you so eagerly want to discuss is not for this blog. There are literally thousands of blogs where people talking just about what you want to talk. I understand your problem, you don’t find too many Jews there.
That’s life. 🙂
One more thing, Ted, on Christianity’s translation into the King James Bible,I understand that Hebrew can say a lot in just a few words. In the 1500s for the English translation, King James gathered the finest writers and poets in the land and of course they made complete verses from a few Hebrew words. Psalm 23 is a good example of this and one of my favorites. How was I suppose to know Jews didn’t say thee and thou?
Is it possible for someone to read Psalm 23 in the King James version and tell us how it compares to the Hebrew verses.
BTW, the Bible is not only the best selling book in the world, it’s also the most shoplifted book.
TTW Said:
This is my last warning. Do not make reference to Jesus or the Messiah or Jeshua etc. Do not quote anything but the Torah.
Viiit Said:
The root of Christianity is Judaism. But it is not a pagan religion. There are some pagan holidays that are changed into a Christian holidays. In Tanakh the book of Esther is named after a pagan goddess Isther.That doesn’t make Judaism a “pagan” religion. I can give you more examples if this thread may continue for a while.
yamit82 Said:
I watched the video on Yutube. The guy could be a godless person who simply takes scriptures out of context by making ridiculous assumptions. I have respect for both Tanakh and Christian Bible. He even denies that fact that a blood is needed for a remission of sin in Torah. Leviticus 17:11, “…the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.” He doesn’t understand the fact that the law is perfect but it won’t make you perfect. That is why mankind needs a perfect Savior (Yeshua),who saves based on Grace (God’s unmerited, unearned and undeserved favor).
@ Viiit:
The tragedy is that otherwise disciplined, intelligent people have such a hard time suspending judgment over matters of faith because they insist on full certainty up front.
I’d respond to many other remarks on this thread but I have to go, and my guess is that this thread will be cut shortly, as it’s now been ten days since the article posted.
@ Bernard Ross:
You are right that Christians have hijacked both Jewish Bible and the Jewish God. In the process they fused the Jewish god with some Pagan deities. Still, they have basically kept the Jewish Bible, and just added something to it.
The same cannot be said about the Muslims. They have not hijacked it. Muhammad retold several of the Biblical stories in a crude and unpoetic way. All subtle meaning is stripped from the metaphors. Stories are told from he middle and end abruptly, then they are told again.
What Muhammad did to the Bible corresponds to a retard trying to retell Shakespeare’s Hamlet.
Christianity is still a religion. A pagan one, to be sure, but a religion.
Islam is not even a religion. It is a collection of primitive, barbaric, laws, bloody threats and perversion on every page.
@ TTW: thank you for your reply. However, I dont think that you replied to or understood my question. Regarding the other points, unrelated to mine, there have been many rebuttals through the ages, mis-translations both intentional and unintentional. You had said you read the Torah and so I expected that you would understand my question. In a way you have indirectly answered my question. I could not understand why Christians, especially those studying Torah, could not understand why it would be impossible for any practicing Jew to accept the basic concepts of Christianity because those basic concepts would appear to violate G_ds commandments and be blasphemous. Perhaps one must be a Jew to understand this idea. Again, as in my last post to you: the Shema and the 10 commandments are basic and of these there can be no violation. No amount of rationalizations could make a Jew believe in 3 Gods or 1 in 3; no amount of quotes can convince a Jew to worship a man as G_d. I am convinced it is possible that Jesus existed as a practicing Jew who did not come to change the Torah, as stated in the Christian bible, and who did not pretend to be all the things attributed to him by Christians. Once you believe he was a practicing Jew then you must try to understand him as a Jew. Rather than quoting Christian translations of the Jewish bible perhaps you should use Jewish sources and seek out real Jewish Rabbi’s to understand the Jews of that time. Many Christians are now doing this. I fear at the end of the day that Christians will discover that “Jesus” never pretended to be G_d and may even have kept the Law as any other Jew. Perhaps everything attributed to him was written later by those with agendas. The Hijacking of the Jewish bible by the Christians and moslems must lead to a hatred of the Jews, for how is it possible to be sane and at the same time worship a Jew while spending 1000’s of years slaughtering the other Jews. I doubt that any Messiah would want to usher in the era of the last 2000 years to herald those bloodthirsty slaughters in G_ds name. The behavior of Christians over the last 2000 years, the evil in the hearts, would seem to be a strange redemption brought on by a Messiah. I am sure there are many rationalizations for this in order that the narrative be kept intact. Keeping a false narrative intact has cost millions of Jewish lives. If I were to worship a man I would probably seek to do as he did; in the case of Jesus I understand from Christians that he followed Torah and practised Judaism therefore I should think real Christians would seek to do as he did. The Evangelicals are now catching on to there having been an error and in the spirit of Dylans song “you know something is happening but you dont know what it is…” are seeking to make changes. However, I suspect that the part they dont know, is that rather than Jews accepting Jesus as G_d they may find that their narrative is incorrect and that his teachings were hijacked along with the Jewish bible and that the Messianic claims were words put in his mouth like ..”eat of my body and drink of my blood..” astonishingly claimed to be said by a practicing Jew at a Pesach Seder. Perhaps he was actually praying the usual Pesach blessing over wine and matzoh instead. Observing Passover 3 days before death is a Jew practising Judaism.
@ TTW:
WOW, I looked up more quotes.
You suggested Zehariach 12:10
Well, I looked up the verses before that. And it is nothing like what is described in the gospels.
It is a great war where all nations turn against Judea and God defends the Jews and smashes all the nations that attack them.
So you are again caught lying and manipulating.
However I don’t even think you do that. I think you read the quotes somewhere else, in some silly book for Christians. You did not find these quotes yourself, you didn’t know the context of these quotes. You are just using ready-made propaganda.
Well, you have confirmed my experience with Christians.
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Now, let’s finish this garbage and have a serious conversation about how we can defeat the musloids.
@ TTW:
looked up the next quote. It is really funny to see how you twist everything.
Now King James used “virgin” instead of “young woman”. That could be because at that time “virgin” meant young woman in English, or because of mistranslation form Hebrew, or Greek.
So Christians developed their whole mythology based on poor a translation.
But already the NIV is offering the “young woman” as translation.
So it was a young woman, not a “virgin”.
only weakminded can believe in a virgin birth. Fortunately Issiah was not a retard.
However there is another problem, all translations agree that his name was supposed to be Immanuel.
Now it takes a Christian to stretch Immanuel to sound like “Jesus”.
Jesus is the Latinized form of Yeshua. Named in after the great Jewish military leader Yeshua Bin Nun.
Not “Immanuel”.
@ TTW:
All your quotes are meaningless as they can be interpreted to mean anything you mean.
Still I looked up just one quote that you suggested, and became aware of demagoguery and insincerity. You suggested
Now this quote follows some other verses, so let’s read the one verse before:
Issiah 53, 2-3
So in your opinion Jesus had no beauty, or majesty.
Nothing in his appearence that we should desire him?
Was he really despised and held in low esteem?
Certainly he had his detractors, but he also had a huge crowd of admirers. To characterize him as just despised would be inaccurate.
The Gospels report that:
That Jesus performed miracle and fed a crowd of some 5000 people. Surely does not sound like the lowly man described by Issiah
So is Issiah really talking about the same thing as Matthew?
The reason why you cannot think logically is that you start with the conclusion and are looking for the arguments that support your conclusion, while omitting the ones that counter it.
There have been many Jews who converted to Christianity, but that was because of antisemitism, not because there was anything great about Christianity.
Conversion meant equal rights. Possibility to hold high positions, access to education, etc.
Felix Mendelssohn Bartholdy converted to Christianity, but he did not give rats ass for Jesus. He converted so that he could direct the symphony orchestra.
Now what do I get for converting to your idol?
I’d do it of $100,000.
For less than that, don’t waste my time.
@ TTW:
I read somewhere (don’t remember who said that):
In year 500 B.C.E. Pythia, the oracle of Delphi predicted:
Two countries will go to war against each other, and one of them will win!
Miraculously her prediction was fulfilled in year 1905 C.E. when in the Russo-Japanese war, Japan defeated Russia.
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By the way, did you know that the first thing Martin Luther did after starting his Reformation was to go to the Jews and try to convert them? He thought that now, that he cleaned up Christianity Jews will buy it.
Well, they didn’t. Then Luther became bitter and every bit as antisemitic as his follower Afolf Hitler.
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The same happened to a certain pedophile 1400 years ago. He, too, after hallucinating some voices talking to him, went to the Jews to teach them that he has found the true religion. Jews would not listen to him, he became antisemitic.
Perhaps after you get tired trying to convert the Jews, you will also become antisemitic.
Jews will never buy into your Jesus.
Jesus is for mediocre people, and the average IQ of Jews is too high for that myth. (You may be lucky to find a really stupid Jews somewhere else, not here.)
Shy Guy Said:
Please give references for your assertions. Thank you. I hope you won’t judge a book by its cover. In order for you and others who read ISRAPUNDIT DOT COM, let me post prophecies fulfilled by Yeshua Messiah according to Tanakh and the prophets:
Messianic prophecy – Tanakh prophecies fulfilled by Jesus Christ (ref:www.aboutbibleprophecy.com/messianic.htm
The Bible has many prophecies that ancient rabbis identified as being “Messianic,” meaning that they speak about an “anointed one” – a special person anointed by God – to carry out work ordained by God. Christians, including us at this web site, believe that Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of the Bible’s Messianic promises. Perhaps the Bible’s most famous Messianic passages are found in Isaiah, chapter 53.
100 Prophecies, explains how Bible prophecies have been fulfilled in history. Click for more information.
Below is a selection of Bible prophecies fulfilled by Jesus Christ the Messiah. The copyrighted commentaries were contributed by George Konig and Ray Konig, authors of the book, 100 Prophecies.
2 Samuel 7:16
King David’s throne would be established forever
Daniel 9:24-26
Daniel predicted when an anointed one would be rejected
Deuteronomy 18:15-18
God promised another prophet like Moses
Genesis 22:18
The Messiah would be a descendant of Abraham
Isaiah 7:14
Isaiah foreshadowed the virgin birth of Jesus
Isaiah 9:6-7
There would be a son called God
Isaiah 35:4-6
He would perform miracles
Isaiah 40:1-5,9
The Messiah would be preceded by a messenger
Isaiah 49:6
God’s salvation would reach the ends of the earth
Isaiah 50:6
Jesus was spat upon and beaten
Isaiah 53:1-3
The Messiah would be rejected
Isaiah 53:4-6
God’s servant would die for our sins
Isaiah 53:7
God’s servant would be silent before his accusers
Isaiah 53:9
God’s servant would be buried in a rich man’s tomb
Isaiah 53:12
God’s servant would be “numbered with the transgressors”
Jeremiah 23:5
The Messiah would be a descendant of King David
John 3:16
All who believe in Jesus will be saved
John 4:19-26
Jesus proclaims that he is the Messiah
Matthew 20:17-19
Jesus foretold his death and resurrection
Micah 5:1-2
The Messiah would be born in Bethlehem
Psalm 41:9
Jesus was betrayed by a friend
Zechariah 9:9
The Messiah would enter Jerusalem while riding on a donkey
Zechariah 12:10
Zechariah foreshadowed the crucifixion of Jesus
@ TTW:
That’s the only thing that matters.
The rest is a waste of time.
I don’t care if Jesus existed.
I don’t ever care if God existed.
All just empty words, making no difference whatsoever to our real lives.
But common enemies, yes. Let’s stand together and defeat the musloids.
Bernard Ross Said:
Thanks for your valid and sincere questions. Although reading both the Christian Bible and the Jewish Tanakh alone without making further research and studies may not be sufficient to answer all of your questions, I will try my best to answer them.
I think most of your questions could be answered if we both read the Jewish Tanakh about the Messiah and later on compare and see whether or not the prophecies have been fulfilled by Yeshua.
In recognition of the Jewish root of Christianity and the preservation of the Bible by the Jews (both Tanakh and the Christian Bible), I think Christians owe a debt for all spiritual benefits they have obtained to the Jews and should help them and the state of Israel in every way possible. As Christians and Jews, we have common enemies.
Prophecies regarding the Messiah from Tanakh:
The Torah clearly teaches that without spilling of blood there is no remission of sin, see Leviticus 4. Also, since the Kotel (Temple) has been destroyed, how could anyone keeps the commandments regarding the Temple?
A partial quote from realmessiah dot com sates “From one Book, the Hebrew Scriptures, have come two faiths. One faith says: We’d rather die than confess the name of Jesus. The other faith says: We’d rather die than deny the name of Jesus. One faith says: There are two Messiahs who will only come once. The other faith says: There is one Messiah but he will come twice.
…The Jewish people of Yeshua’s day were all looking for a Savior. Some hoped for a mighty military Leader, while others looked for a Deliverer from the sky. Some looked for a holy Priest, while others looked for a Teacher of Righteousness. Yet no one was looking for a Crucified Messiah. And no one was looking for the Lamb of God. They had forgotten that the righteous Servant of the Lord was himself to be an ’asham — an offering for sin (Isaiah 53:10). And they had forgotten father Abraham’s words that God would provide the lamb for the burnt offering (Genesis 22:8).
Yes, there were some rabbis who claimed that every sacrifice was accepted on the basis of Abraham’s offering up of Isaac. And they claimed that in the Passover rite, when God “saw the blood” (Exodus 12), He was looking at the sacrifice of Isaac and not at the blood of the lamb.
Yet Isaac was not offered, and his blood was never shed. And it was God Himself Who provided the sacrifice that saved the life of Abraham’s son. Substitution: Without this word Yeshua’s death is a farce.
It was Messiah who suffered and died, and it is by his wounds that we are healed (Isaiah 53:5). It was he who was led as a lamb to the slaughter, and it was he who bore our sins (Isaiah 53:7, 12 and Leviticus 16:22).
Oh yes, there were Jewish teachers who believed that the suffering of the righteous could bring atonement to the world. Yet when the truly Righteous One suffered and died, they said that it was for naught. For it was not the blood of bulls that God wanted for Himself; it was not the fat of rams that He desired. It was not a people of mere ritual purity that He sought; He did not require a new code that would keep men clean. No. He wanted a substitute, a righteous lamb who would bear His people’s sins. He wanted a spotless sacrifice who would purify the people within.”
According to Daniel 9:24-27, the Messianic era had to be inaugurated before the Second Temple was destroyed, thus pointing decisively to Yeshua as the key figure of whom the text speaks. If Yeshua is not the Messiah, Daniel’s, Jacobs (Genesis 49:10); and Haggai’s (Haggai 2:6-9) prophecies were “wrong “and no other Messiah will ever come. According to Hebrew roots dot com/node/161, “Either Messiah has come …or Jacob, Daniel and Haggai are false prophets.”
If you have any more questions, please feel free to ask. I will try my best to address them as much as I could.
@ TTW:
I am not exactly and atheist, but you contradict your self.
In any case, your definition of “open mind” is that I listen to you and see things your way.
As it happens I have heard all of that before, and I have read the Bible, so you are clearly not saying anything new to me.
The story of Jewish rabbis and the Jewish mob being responsible for the death of Jesus is garbage.
I already explained to you the historical context. Jews had no power to sway the Roman hegomon Pontius Pilae. Romans would only crucify a man who was leading a rebellion against their rule. So if Jesus existed and indeed was crucified by the Romans, he was most likely a zealot who was organizing a rebellion.
In any case I really don’t care about that. It is entirely unimportant to me personally, other than that I am surrounded by the Christians.
@ dweller:
The tragedy is that religions destroy people’s ability to distinguish between myths and facts.
I can appreciate many moral teachings and community guidance of religions (not Islam), but surrendering one’s intelligence is too high a price to pay.
It is amazing that in the 21st century people want to live by Bronze Age myths and superstitions.
Viiit Said:
Since you consider the Torah (Law) and the New Testament as a “fiction” and seem to consider atheism as “credible”, giving you any scriptural evidence from any credible source may not be necessary unless you have an open mind to consider all the facts. If you are an atheist, you are one of most religious individuals who believe something “comes” from nothing or life “originates” from a lifeless stuff. The Torah and the true Gospels of Messiah Jesus (Yeshua) were written by Jews. Jesus Himself was the Chief Rabbi of the Jews, who fulfilled the prophecies, included in the Torah and the prophets as ben Joseph during His first coming and will fulfill the remaining prophecies as ben David during His return. There is no other book which has stood a test of time with archaeological proofs and prophesies like the Bible. I agree with you that the “Protocols of the Elders of Zion” was/is anti-Semitic fiction. Have you ever read the Bible (Basic Instruction before leaving earth?” True Christianity does not hold the Jews responsible for the crucifixion of Messiah Jesus. In accordance with the Torah and the prophets, as a Jewish Messiah, He volunteered to taste death for the sins of the whole world in order to reconcile mankind to God. According to Clarke’s commentary of the Bible “
Pilate sought to release him – Pilate made five several attempts to release our Lord; as we may learn from Luke 23:4, Luke 23:15, Luke 23:20, Luke 23:22; John 19:4, John 19:12, John 19:13.
Thou art not Caesar’s friend – Thou dost not act like a person who has the interest of the emperor at heart. Ambassadors, prefects, counsellors, etc., were generally termed the friends of the emperor. This insinuation determined Pilate to make no longer resistance: he was afraid of being accused, and he knew Tiberius was one of the most jealous and distrustful princes in the world. During his reign, accusations of conspiracies were much in fashion; they were founded on the silliest pretenses, and punished with excessive rigour. See Calmet, Tacit. An. l. i. c. 72, 73, 74. Sueton. in Tiber. c. 58.”
From the context of Matthew 26–27 Jewish guilt for the death of Jesus applies only to Judas, the religious leaders of Jerusalem, and the mob of Jerusalem before the judgment seat of Pilate. It was the unbelieving Jews of Jerusalem and Israel, not all Jews in general, whom Matthew and the New Testament indict for their failure to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and their complicity in His death.
@ Viiit:
That’s strictly an assumption.
@ Viiit:
Why, specifically?
FWIW, it says nothing about any ‘whale.’
Says it was a “large fish,” and that the Lord explicitly “prepared” the fish for that purpose [Jonah 2:1] — but again to the point, why “insane”?
Can you not maintain the discipline of an open mind until such time as a seemingly implausible report becomes clearer?
JURORS in a courtroom are expected to do so regularly.
Why your rush to rule out its substance?
— are you quite certain that such a stance is truly scientific?
How do you know they’re ‘fables’?
@ Catarin:
Instead of reading the “scholars” I suggest that you read the Quran, Sirat, and Hadiths.
An easy version is found on http://www.politicalislam.com/
Muhammad was one of the most disgusting monsters in history of humanity.
All this nonsense about Abu Bakr being a devil and Ali being an angel, is Shiite propaganda. In reality the Shiite version of Islam is every bit as stupid and inhuman as Sunni. The real conflict is about power, not about ideology.
And are you trying to tell me that it was OK for a 55 years old man to have sex with a 9 year old girl, just because it was 1400 years ago?
Are you telling me that it was Ok for him to torture people to death and rape scores of women, just because it was 1400 years ago?
Well, Buddha lived 2500 years ago, but he did not do things like that, neither did Pythagoras, nor Diogenes, nor Lao T’se or Chuang T’se.
A barbarian like Muhammad is a narcissist who cannot see others as humans, but only as means to the fulfillment of their own neurotic needs.
There are several scholars who work on the historical Jesus. They find out everything they can by studying all existing writings of the period in several languages, studying the later writings and they generally agree on Jesus the person. Crosson was part of the Jesus Seminar, about 12 scholars who took the miracles out of the Gospels so they could get a true picture of Jesus.
Jesus was not the only one preaching and healing, and scholars have names of other preachers of the time. i.e., Jesus also had women in his entourage who preached and healed, and scholars were able to determine that one woman who helped pay their travel expenses was named Joann. So there are two women we know, Mary Magdalene and Joann, in the group.
We know early Christians made up stories about Jesus–they so wanted to separate themselves from Judaism. The quotes about blood are part of that and the previous Pope apologized to Jews for laying the blame of Jesus’ crucifixion on them. (A little late, I’d say.) The Romans were crucifying thousands of Jews each week, but the Gospels forgot to mention that.
I believe the translation of Mary as a virgin was a mistake. The Greeks translated amah as virgin, and it didn’t help that in Latin the word for young maiden is virgo/virgin.
What I know about Mohammed has mostly come from historian Will Durant’s book _The Age of Faith_. It’s part of his many book series in The Story of Civilization. He was the last Western scholar to have access to the ancient archives of the Middle East I bet you can get this book at the library. He records that it was Abu Bakr who gave the blood curdling speech about Muslims going to war and conquering the world after Mohammed had died. Abu Bakr shoved Ali out so he, Bakr, could become the first Caliph. Bakr was a power-obsessed evil devil of a man who set Muslims on the warpath. BTW, it’s not fair to judge the ancients by modern standards.
@ Catarin:
From the little that I have read of John Dominic Crosson appears that he deduced who Jesus might have been based on his studies of the early Christianity. This is far cry form “historical Jesus”. There simply is no historical Jesus. No reliable sources.
As for his views about Jesus being tolerant and inclusive, this of course is quite different from the Jesus in the Gospels who claims to have been sent to save Jews only.
Your comment about
“Islam was usurped by Mohammed’s companion Abu Bakr who wanted war with everyone.”
Is most surprising. Muhammad wanted a war with everyone. This is clearly stated in Quran, Sirat, and Hadiths. Abu Bakr was a fanatical follower of Muhammad.
When Muhammad wanted to marry his 6 year old daughter, he naturally objected saying that she was too young. However the pedophile convinced him that this was Allah’s will and Abu Bakr gave his consent. Mercifully for Aisha, she go seriously ill at that time and lost all hair. Only because of that had the pedophile prophet waited 3 years before actually raping her.
Muhammad not Abu Bakr is the source of Islamic aggression. He personally oversaw the execution of 900 Jewish prisoners of war. (All men and boys from puberty up) And enslavement and rape of all women.
He clearly commanded his hordes to conquer the whole world for Allah.
Don’t blame Abu Bakr for the crimes of the pedophile prophet.
@ Viiit:
Ah Yes, The Chinese menu approach to scripture and beliefs. Some from Column A some from Column B etc.
Isn’t being ignorant blissful? I call it the arrogance of ignorance.
So far, you are the only evidence I have found showing Darwin’s theory of the ‘Origin Of The Species’ Might Be Correct.
@ Viiit:
Don’t understand your skepticism re: a “Talking donkey”, when you are living proof that it’s possible.
@ dweller:
Of course, just because there is a bunch of nonsense in the Gospels, does not mean that all of Gospels are garbage. In fact I appreciate many stories in the Gospels.
The point is that it is for us to determine what we like and what we don’t like in any scripture.
We have to rely on our intelligence to do that, and therefor human intelligence is a higher value than the “holy” scriptures.
@ TTW:
Making a Messiah
@ dweller:
As far as I am concerned only an insane person can believe in virgin birth.
Likewise of course the old Jewish stories about about Jonas surviving in a whale’s stomach, or a donkey talking to Baalam, and all such other fables.
So just because the Torah is full of nonsense, this does not justify the nonsense in the Gospels.
@ yamit82:
My request was polite, while you could not resist calling my posts “crap”.
While “crap” is subjective”, I can objectively say that you are a plagiarist. Lifting peoples articles in whole and posting them here under your name. I have caught you doing that several times primarily with Obadiah Soher writing.
@ Viiit:
Wouldn’t go throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
It’s obvious that the Gospels have been tampered with.
Doesn’t — of itself — make them false in their entirety.
@ Viiit:
Come off it, Viiit, YOU don’t know — any more than TTW does — that it was “recycled for the benefit of the new converts.”
You KNOW only that it was indeed a myth told elsewhere & in other times; the WHY of it is sheer speculation on your, or anybody’s, part.
It may be that it caught on because it was not unfamiliar to the people to whom it was presented; THAT’s plausible. But that’s the most you can say about it.
The Flood Story is told in various cultures in one form or another (and some of their actual writings may even antedate that of the Scriptures)
— but this does not, of itself, invalidate the story; doesn’t even invalidate the story AS TOLD in Scripture.
Same phenomenon with Dionysus/Semele, Frigga/Baldur, etc. Proves nothing.
Some things apparently exist in the collective unconscious of Man long before they are written down; long even before they become material realities.
I hope that wasn’t condescension sneaking up on you — after you’d started out with what seemed like a sincere offering of feedback.
@ Viiit:
You don’t have to reply to me.
I will however when I feel the urge comment on your comments, especially when you post such crap as you have above. You may complain to the Boss as you have in the past if you are not happy about my comments. 8)
First of all the Torah is a teaching meant to be learned and studied for a purpose or for ends served. It uses literary devices such as metaphors, allegories and parables; also historical characters and events. Although it was never meant to be a history, it is noteworthy how accurate is it’s historical basis re: Time lines, Characters and events. Hardly a month goes by without some archaeological corroboration of the Tanach. All in all Archeology has substantiated more of the Tanach than it has managed to debunk.
No other religion or philosophy comes close to the coherence to the Torah in coherence and subtlety. The Torah is not a product of editors; its meticulous wisdom, where disparate statements reinforce each other and never contradict, is beyond humans.
Pascal’s wager seems reasonable: “Live as if G-d exists, for if he doesn’t you lose nothing”.
@ andrew morris:
More accurately: Both forgeries for significant part.
At the same time bath contain beauty and poetic truth mixed garbage and lies.
Torah is an important historical document, though of course not all that’s written there is history.
Torah also contains some of the most amazing literature ever written.
Gospels, too, contain some of the most amazing tales and teaching stories ever written, and at the same time a lot of falsifications and primitive garbage. So it is a mixed bag. Certainly worth reading, but of course not taken as the exact and final truth.
@ yamit82:
Yamit, I was not talking to you, and you have already expressed your views to me before. You are repeating yourself.
I have no interest in conversing with you and would like to suggest that we both save our time and ignore each other’s posts politely.
your silence will be construed as agreement.
@ yamit82:
Well, certainly nothing attributed to myself would qualify as Holy Writ, that goes without saying (uh, unless, of course, you want to write it down for me, boychik’l).
But then, I don’t go offering myself as an authority — the way you do the Gaon of Vilna.
Right. And you have no need to give up your nicotine addiction.
Because you consciously & deliberately set out to create it — right?
And after all, you can quit anytime you like.
— You’ve proved that already, what, three times now?
four?
ALL men are stand-alone, “one-of-a-kind, freaks of nature.”
But MOST of them have yet to discover that.
Afraid of standing alone, are you?
The truth is, while all men really do stand alone
— only he who stands MOST alone, and knows it
is in a POSITION to stand closest to God.
Because only such a man is most CONSCIOUS his need for God.
Sure it is; the “two inclinations” are the fruit of the Tree
— of the Knowledge of Good & Evil.
Why do you ask?
Does a thing have meaning for you ONLY if somebody said it before you?
If so, then how did it acquire meaning for THEM?
WHAT “assumptions” not in conformity with WHAT “facts””
Haeckel’s Theory of Embryological Parallelism was discredited a century ago.
— What’s your point in hauling it out here?
What’s it got to do with the price of bananas?
Neither ‘pagan’ NOR ‘Christian’ — not-at-all outside Jewish thought, when properly comprehended.
“We”? — Unlike some other faiths, Judaism has no magisterium & no hierophant. You speak only for one Jew — yourself.
So, Yahnkele, if you want to play the role of hierophant, Grand Inquisitor, etc., I guess you’ll just have to change religions.
I could suggest a few where you’d fit in quite nicely (at least, from a strictly functional perspective), and I’m sure you’d be great in the gig. . . .
Hope you’ve been a good boy then.
She sure-as-blazes won’t be very happy to learn that you’re still smoking cigarettes.
When you see your bubbeh, tell her that if she can make me some good chicken soup, I’ll get her grandson off of tobacco EASY (no struggle whatsoever), and permanently — and without transferring the addiction to some other nasty-assed habit — physical OR emotional OR intellectual — in its place. And that he won’t have to change any of his theological or cosmological ideas about anything.
Such a deal!
@ andrew morris:
50% right gets you no cigar. Guess you never heard of archeology?
@ Viiit:
IMHO any self described Jew who considers the Sinai event as a Children’s fable and fallacy is not a Jew. You might still claim to be an armchair Galut Zionist but not a Jew. The definition you have used in describing yourself as a Jew on other threads is based on the revelation and consequences of that revelation at Sinai. Your apparent rejection of that revelation cuts off the branch you rest upon in self-describing yourself as being a Jew.
I have studied the historical Jesus through the writings of scholar John Dominic Crosson and others. There is a big difference between Jesus and the Church. The Catholic Church determined what theology it wanted to use and tried to destroy all other writings. In my opinion Christianity is a man made religion and it took hundreds of years for the church to get its ducks in a row.
Jesus was a Jew and was teaching Jewish teachings. I believe Islam was usurped by Mohammed’s companion Abu Bakr who wanted war with everyone. In my studies, Judaism is the purest of the three. It took 1,000 years for the Torah to reach final form, because according to the Jewish scholar Dr. Kugel, the Jewish scholars and scribes over each generation made changes if a tenet or belief did not hold up over time. There was no usurping of anything by any Jew, all were committed to making the Torah the best it could be. That’s why sometimes there are two versions of the same events, as the scholars were loathe to remove writings they considered holy.
I am apprehensive about posting on Richard Friedman’s book about the sources of various parts of the Torah because I’m afraid I will offend the very people about whom it is written.
@ Shy Guy:
Old testament-new testament. What is the difference? Both are children’s fables.
As far as I am concerned there are too many fairy tales in the Bible for me to be bothered with commenting them. The discussion f these fallacies are easily available on millions on atheist websites, no need for my contribution.
However from Jewish perspective a particularly toxic fallacies are the ones with the antimemitic implications. In particular this verse:
Matthew 27:25
“And all the people answered, “His blood be on us and on our children!”
As well as all the references to Jews being responsible for the crucifixion of Jesus.
The very notion that Jews could have twisted the arm of Pontius Pilate, against Pontius’s will, is forgery. Jews had no power to do that. Pontius was know to be a cruel absolute ruler who hated the Jew.
If Jesus indeed was a religious reformer starting a new Jewish sect, Pontius Pilate would have supported him as it splitting the Jews against each other, would have made the task of ruling them much easier.
Secondly, if it was true that Jews considered Jesus a criminal who broke the law, they would have never said that “his blood be on our heads”. If he was a criminal, then his execution was “justified” and in such cases the term “blood on our heads does not apply”.
Every study of the crucifiction shows that this account indeed is a fiction
I am not opposed to fiction as such. Much of the Bible is fiction, and yet it is beautiful fairy tale.
I am only opposed to antisemitic fiction such as the Gospels, or the “Protocols of the Elders of Zion”
TTW Said:
thank you for your offer. I am not an intellectual and have not delved into the Christian religion much but there are some very basic facts that do not ring true and make me wonder if Christians had greater knowledge they would have to abandon christianity. My understanding of christianity is that it involves the worship of Jesus, the man, as a God. Any Jew who might accept that Jesus existed and was a practicing Jew up until his death could not accept the beliefs of Christianity as being held by Jesus, a practicing Jew. It would be an oxymoron. Here are facts which I understand to be now admitted by Christianity: 1) Jesus was a practicing Jew 2) Jesus “last supper” was a passover seder which occurred 3 days before his death. If these are true then it appears to me that the following must also be true about Jesus, the man: As a Jew still practicing Judaism up to his death or at least 3 days before his death(as evidenced by the observance of the passover seder), christian beliefs would be so blasphemous to him that it would be completely unbelievable to any Jew that Jesus himself, as a practicing Jew could even conceive of believing them. These: 1)The notion of G_d as 3 entities when the highest prayer, the shema states unequivocally that the “Lord is One” 2) the notion that a man could be worshiped as a God and that a man is equal to G_d (Thou shalt have no other before me)3) The idea that G_d would appoint a man that must be worshiped in order to communicate with, reach or be “saved” by God(Thou shalt have no other before me). 4) The passover seder is a ritual, religious ceremonial meal which commemorates through symbols the exodus from egypt. The seder employs wine and unleavened bread(matzoh)in the ritual. The idea that a practicing Jew would declare at such a seder, or any time, to “eat of my body and drink of my blood” is inconceivable to any Jew. These ideas are beyond blasphemy to any practicing or even non practicing Jew and even more unbelievable if Jesus was a Rabbi as often ascribed to him. Therefore, to start with a Jew could not believe that any Jew would say or believe any of these things as they are so remote and foreign to Judaism and if Jesus was a practicing Jew then much of what was ascribed to him by Christianity would be a concoction. I understand that Jesus stated that he did not come to change the Law and to any Jew the Law is the Torah. I can understand why non Jews might believe that a practicing Jew might blieve or instruct these ideas but no Jew would believe that any other Jew would believe such ideas. It seems more logical to belive that perhaps there was a Jew called Jewsus who may have lived at a time of Jewish religious turmoil. that perhaps this Jew gathered a great following and that over time he was co opted and words put into his mouth. For 200 years I understand that the early “Dhristians” observed the Jewish Holy days and considered themselves part of Judaism. I also understand that the roman takeover of early Christianity cemented many pagan beliefs into it such as Oestre or Easter. Perhaps it became necessary to omit Judaism as the cornerstone of Christianity, necessary to kill all the witnesses who might spill the beans. Perhaps the pogroms, or serial killings of Jews, became an important part of Christian theology to prevent any facts from reaching the Christian masses and overturning its foundations. Therefore Jesus, the Jew, perhaps became Jesus, the “Christian”, who was killed by the Jews. As you read the Torah I wonder how a Christian can reconcile a practicing Jew with ideas so blasphemous and foreign to Judaism, the shema and the 10 commandments.
Viiit Said:
I do not call a Jew or any other human being “poor” because he/she may not believe in Jesus Christ as Messiah. It has never been my intention to proselytize any one by coming to this website. After making comments on various non-religious issues, your question and others questions and responses led me to comment on religious issues. Although I read the Torah and the rest of the Bible, that doesn’t make me a Bible scholar. From what I have read, I can for sure say that there are many things the Jews (non-messianic Jews) and the Christians have in common. There are still some so called Christians who are anti-Semites because of their wrong doctrine (Replacement Theology). What I am trying to do here is to answer your question as much as I could and also learn from others about Judaism. I like challenges. I welcome any comments from any one. If any one could prove to me beyond any shadow of doubt (I don’t think that is possible)that what I believe in is ‘wrong”, I will definitely accept something that is truthful. God did not create anyone as a puppet or robot. Based on my own free will, I can accept or reject anything unlike puppets.
@ TTW:
Well, are you then saying that you are willing to abandon your Christian beliefs if/when the foundations of your beliefs are proven wrong?
E.g. if you were presented sufficient prove that Gospels are a forgery?
Also, do you believe that Jesus was born from a virgin mother?
Are you aware that this is an old pagan myth recycled for the benefit of the new converts?
Krishna was born of the virgin Devaki
Savior Dionysus was born of the virgin Semele.
The old Teutonic goddess Hertha was a virgin impregnated by the heavenly Spirit and bore a son.
Scandinavian Frigga was impregnated by the All-Father Odin
Frigga then bore Balder, the healer and savior of mankind
And that Mary is the re-cycled goddess Isis.
You can learn a lot from here http://pocm.info/pagan_ideas_virgin_birth.html
However my question was:
ARE YOU READY to abandon your beliefs if the evidence and logic are against them?
If not, then why are you trying to use the same approach towards the Jews. Do you think that Jews have superior intelligence and higher commitment to truth than Christians? If so, then would it not be more likely that their beliefs reflect the truth to higher degree than the Christian beliefs.
I hope the above argument is not too hard to understand.
TTW Said:
Examine carefully:
Jesus was nobody’s messiah
The “disciples” died for a lie
Good luck, Mr. Intellect!
Viiit Said:
If ones belief is immune to any intrusion from the domain of intellect, it is a blind faith and meaningless. For whatever I do in life, I usually try to examine everything carefully and hold fast to that which is good.
@ TTW:
Would like to give you a little feedback about how your post comes across:
You have read and understood both the “Old” and the “New Testament”.
Of course you say “Torah” but you also say “New Testament” which implies that Torah is the Old old and either obsolete, or in the least incomplete “Testament”. Of course you did not mean to insult anyone, but this is how this comes across: The poor Jews, have not understood their own scripture, because if they did they would realize that Jesus was the fulfillment of what was promised in Torah. He is the Messiah that the Jews have beet waiting for.
Now you, who have understood all this, are going to help those poor Jews to see the light. You are going to explain to them. Show them proofs and correct their logical fallacies, and lead them to salvation.
This is how you come across. And this is how all Christians come across when they try to convert the Jews.
Then it is also funny that you think that you can say something new to the Jews. You really think you can say something an argument that the Jews have not heard before? Highly unlikely. You would have to be an extremely rare and original thinker. I mean like one in a billion category. And you don’t appear to be one. And frankly, the way I see it, if you were that intelligent, then you’d not be a Christian, and you’d not be coming to a Jewish forum to try to convert the Jews.
Finally here is a question about your sincerity: If you think that you can convert the Jews to your views, are you also open to the possibility of being converted away from Christianity. Meaning are you open to the possibility that perhaps Jesus was not the only begotten son of God, or that he did not raise from the dead, or that perhaps he did not exist at all. Or to the possibility that the Gospels are forgeries.
@ TTW:
I think it is unrealistic to expect and intelligent conversation regarding the conflicting religious views.
Religious beliefs operate on the emotional plain, and are usually immune to any intrusion from the domain of intellect. Thus if you were raised with the belief that Jesus was the only begotten son of God, you will probably die with that belief, too. On the other hand someone who was raised with the opposite belief, will be just as emotional about his beliefs as you are about yours.
I think that the best approach is to assign religions to the strictly personal domain and never try to convince others about anything regarding such beliefs.
To ISRAPUNDIT Moderators.
Thanks for this web site. I started using this web site very recently. I like the balanced views being posted by different individuals. I have observed that there are some misunderstandings between those who reads Torah and Christians who read both Torah and the New Testament. I have read both (Torah & the New Testament). The New Testament is the fulfillment of what was stated in the Torah (the five Books of Moses) and the Prophets. Jews have a lot of reasons for not believing in Jesus Christ as their Messiah: Churches and individuals who were followers of Jesus Christ in name only persecuted the Jews and created animosity and divisions between Christians and Jews for a long period of time in the past.If you continue to allow an open discussion on this forum, I can respectfully try to answer some of the questions I have seen posted on this website. Irrespective of whether others agree with me as a Christian regarding my religious views, nobody will be able to stop me from loving the Jews and the state of Israel. Please, if you can, approve the comments I made before in my responses to dweller and yamit82. All the best to you! Shalom.