By Ted Belman
Will Mahmood Abbas have a nother shot at obtaining UN recongnition of Palestine this fall?
Jonathan Schanzer in his article, If at first you don’t succeed…, in Foreign Policy seems to think its possible.
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According to Palestinian negotiator Saeb Erekat, the PLO, which is leading the charge to Turtle Bay, is now following the lead of a different regional player: Qatar. In late March, Erekat announced that the Palestinian leadership had reached an agreement with Doha to try again at the U.N. Other Palestinian insiders confirm that the Qataris are leading the charge, and one former official says they’re even funding the legal effort for the PLO, producing analysis on the costs and benefits of the statehood initiative.
This is one more example of Qatar growing activism in the ME. It was instrumental in getting the UN to pass a no-fly zone in Libya leading to Gaddafi’s downfall and it is funding the Syrian opposition to bring about the fall of Assad. Qatar is the bridge between the MB including Hamas, and the US. Now it has taken up the Palestinian cause.
The Palestinians, notwithstanding such resistance from the Great White North, actually have broad international support for their initiative.
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The PLO’s Negotiations Affairs Department claims that 128 countries back the notion of a Palestinian state, and the number could be as high as 140. Either way, this is enough support at the General Assembly, in the words of Abbas during a recent trip to Paris, “to obtain the status of nonmember state, as is the case for the Vatican.”
But Abbas will need to weigh this international support against the wall of resistance he’s getting from Washington. In an interview with the Saudi Okaz newspaper, Erekat said that U.S. President Barack Obama’s administration was threatening to suspend aid and close down the PLO mission in Washington if the Palestinians returned to the U.N.
Obama cannot afford to stand back and watch the Palestinians play for statehood as he campaigns for his reelection. If the Palestinians make it across the finish line at the General Assembly, Obama’s domestic critics will charge that he threw Israel under the bus.
Obama would love a chance to prevent such recognition during his re-election campaign. But if he is re-elected, he will no doubt threaten Israel with abstention next time around as he did first time around.
My latest comments have not been approved. I would like to strictly follow your standards to use this web site. Since you know my email address, would you please let me know how I would be able to continue making comments on this website? All the best!
@ yamit82:
It was Jewish before it was ‘Christian.’
And it was out there even before there were Jews.
Even if that were true — and it isn’t true, but even if it were true — that of itself would not make me wrong.
It could merely mean that it hadn’t yet occurred to others to say it. And there could be many reasons for that.
Sometimes it’s wise not to write certain things down; but that in itself does not establish that it has never been thought.
And sometimes there are some things that are so taken for granted that they need not be written down.
Only a word?
There are whole chunks of B’resheit missing. Especially in the early chapters. (The first man & the first woman give birth to 2 sons — one of whom kills the other, then proceeds to propagate a city. Hunh? There had to be at least one other woman in there someplace. Toujours, cherchez la femme. And there are numerous other evidences that MUCH of B’reishit is missing.)
Of course. “In the Beginning was the Word.”
So, when is it gonna change yours?
To you, a person who digs Jesus is, ipso facto, a Christian.
But there are lots of Buddhists, Sikhs, Jains & Hindus who dig Jesus too, and they aren’t Christians any more than I am.
Tuth is, no paint-by-the-numbers Christian would EVER regard YoursTruly as a ‘Christian.’
So is this your gingerly way of telling us that you once procured an abortion for somebody?
— or that you are (or were) close to somebody who once had one?
Nu, and El Elyon pulled you aside one day, and whispered sweet nothings in your ear to this effect?
NT may have been tampered with, such that elements of it ring off-key
— but that does not, of itself, make it “not a divinely inspired work.”
Library’s closing — and it won’t be open for Independence Day. So I won’t be back till Thursday, July 5.
Guess you’ll just have to get by without me for a day, Poor Baby. . . .
dweller I have two comment replies to you in moderation.
@ dweller:
Neither is anything attributed to jesus or you.
Free will was never lost so it needs no recovery. maybe you need to rediscover your own free will but you consider yourself a stand alone mystic, a one of a kind freak of nature?
It is no such thing.
Who said that? You make assumptions about human nature not in conformity with the facts. Ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny.
Again a Christian Pagan Concept very outside Jewish thought and beliefs. We do not accept your premise. So the rest of your arguments and conclusions based on that premise is unadulterated Mush.
I hear my grandmother (the messiah)will be returning soon.
@ yamit82:
Like I said, you are as crippled as they are.
@ dweller:
We have both legs and a brain. You also have at least one leg.
Fall of Adam is a Christian pagan concept not Jewish. You will not find any support for your convoluted unJewish concepts in Judaism or in any commentary by our ancient or modern sages.
If here was no fall the rest of your argument turns to Mush!
There was no fall (falling in Love derived from that Pagan Christian concept)
Judaism thru Torah is a nature altering device and thru it man can change his nature.
First verse of the Torah lays it out. B’resheit does not men in the beginning . That would be breshana to be grammatically correct. B’resheit is construct form it should be translated literally “In the beginning of…G-d created heaven and earth? Of what? There is a word missing.
Now what I submit goes to the argument between Nature and nurture, If you check every reference to the word resheit as a noun in a concordance you will find that the Torah refers to Resheit either to the Jews or the Torah. Insert Jews for the missing word in it makes no sense as there was no Jews before or during the creation. Insert Torah in place of the Blank and it makes sense. The first verse in the Torah when read literally says: In the beginning of creation there was Torah. Some Jewish commentators suggest that the Torah preceded creation.
The Torah solves the argument of Nature vs Nurture. With Torah man can change his innate nature. (see famous Twinky argument in the murder of SF Mayor Mosconi)
Only you pagan Christians are so wrapped up in sin conception and fear of Dante’s Pagan concepts of hell and great lakes of fire, devils and demons and all that crap, Blah Blah. Scary stories for idiots and children.
There is no fall!
No original sin!!
No Devil!!!
No jesus!!!
NT is not a divinely inspired work, therefore it needs the credibility of our book to justify it’s existence.
@ yamit82:
Yes, but that is precisely when the unfree will is LEAST CONSCIOUS of its danger.
@ TTW:
Most Jews don’t, yet; it’s true.
On the other hand, self-styled “Christians” don’t yet know that Jesus isn’t ‘God.’
That makes Jews & Christians a pair of cripples
— the one, missing his left leg
the other, missing his right.
@ yamit82:
So said Eliyahu haGaon miVilna. And the Gaon is entitled to his opinion.
But opinion is all it is — not holy writ.
(The venerable Gaon had a lot of opinions. I’m sure I needn’t remind you of his opinions about the Hasidim, for example. . . .)
My opinion, FWIW, is that “the… purpose of our existence” is to recover our lost free will.
That, in turn, would — among other things — overcome all negative habituation all by itself, without effort or strain (and without the inevitable action-reaction that always sets in whenever “will-power” is used to overcome a bad habit of thought or deed).
Anything short of recovering that lost free will is nothing more than spinning your wheels
— a striving after wind.
That’s the evidence that his will is no longer free (nor his own).
A man with a truly free will is not subject to yetzer hara.
Adam’s fall was NOT the ‘result’ of yetzer hara, but it surely brought yetzer hara into existence; opened a portal for it thereafter, so to speak.
Fiddlestix. The “existence of the two” is the FRUIT of the knowledge of good & evil — and the evidence of estrangement from the fruit of the Tree of Life.
yamit82 Said:
How can the basis of ones christian belief be destroyed if a believer does not reject free will? God created mankind with a free will. He did not create us like a puppet but in His own image. Had he created us like a puppet, we won’t be able to have a say in all circumstances.
@ yamit82:
Christ had a truly free will.
Yet he did nothing thru (what we call) “will power.”
In the Garden of Gethsemane, he made that clear:
“Father, let this cup pass from me; yet, not my will but Thine be done.”
yamit82 Said:
yamit82 Said:
It is not clear to me which ones of my ideas is based on pagan culture. You also said that it is a stretch to apply the concept of merciful to God. You are not convinced that Christians and Jews believe in the same God.
Is the God of the Bible Merciful? The answer is Yes. Psalm 100:5 states that “The LORD is good; his mercy is everlasting.”If God were not just, neither would He be good. Our inherent sense of right tells us this. “But without His mercy toward us, life would be hopeless and miserable beyond endurance. Both are necessary for our well-being, and both are equally important components of the goodness of God.” Exodus 34:6 states: “And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,…”
How about Isaiah 45:7 – which in part states God creates evil? A partial quote from comreason dot org: “The word ra’ is used throughout the Old Testament with several meanings. It is used many times to mean something morally evil or hurtful (Job 35:12, 1 Sam 30:22, etc.) but it is also used to mean an unpleasant experience (Gen 47:9 and Prov. 15:10). It is used to describe fierce beasts (Lev. 26:6), and even spoiled or inferior fruit (Jer 24:3). Certainly, the figs that Jeremiah was looking at were not evil in the sense of morally reprobate!
In Isaiah 45, the word evil is used in a contrast to the peace and well-being discussed before it. I quote John Haley:
Evil means natural, and not moral evil, or sin. Herderson says “affliction, adversity”; Calvin, “afflictions, wars, and other adverse occurrences.”
Whichever interpretation may be adopted, none of the above texts, nor any others when properly explained, sanction the revolting proposition that God is the author of sin.”(1)
God, in Hebrew thought, is considered the final authority over everything. If wars or famine happen, then God has allowed that to occur, and therefore controls evil. He does not initiate any type of evil. When a man seeks to sin and commit adultery, that is his choice. He should not expect God to protect him, then from any disease or negative ramification of his choice. God’s judgments and the loss of His protection are how he creates afflictions in the lives of men. Judgment is not morally wrong, though. Quite the opposite. Judgment is what we expect of a righteous God.
I hope this helps you to understand the differences in the word ra’ a little more clearly. Let me know what you think.”
Do Christians and Jews worship the same God? Basically yes, but the Jews just don’t know that Jesus is truly the Messiah — yet.
Read more: http://www.comereason.org/phil_qstn/phi025.asp#ixzz1zJhgN9lh
dweller
With G-d’s help we can overcome these negative habits.
We need to ask.
Brings me back to why the Israeli government does not allow Jews to pray in their Temple.
I am sure He is not happy with this.
@ rongrand:
Give dweller this answer:
Man has a yetzer hara (evil inclination) and a yetzer tov (good inclination). The existence of the two allows man to have the free will to choose good. The yetzer hara will first try to grab a person through a subtle gesture. If an individual falls prey at the early stage he will likely fall deeper and deeper into it’s clutches. This process is similar to one which exits in nature . There is a wasp that stings a spider, lays its eggs on it, gets it to spin a totally different web, the eggs then hatch and eat the spider alive. The goal is to overcome the yetzer hara on its onset because this is when we are strongest and most able to resist its pull. http://www.simpletoremember.com/articles/a/wasp-manipulation/
@ Viiit:
That’s the answer that fits you.
@ rongrand:
ron forget dweller, he rejects free will because it would destroy the basis of his christian beliefs. I say his christian beliefs, because they are not yours.
@ TTW:
Question do you believe G-d is in the heart of the Devil (Satan)?
Yeshayahu- Isaiah – Chapter 45
“5. I am the Lord, and there is no other; besides Me there is no God: I will strengthen you although you have not known Me.
6. In order that they know from the shining of the sun and from the west that there is no one besides Me; I am the Lord and there is no other.
7. Who forms light and creates darkness, Who makes peace and creates evil; I am the Lord, Who makes all these.”
Your ideas like your god are not based on Jewish scripture but Pagan cultures of the time and place and that includes most definitely your concepts re: Satan.
Not convinced we Jews and you Christians believe in the same Creator of the Universe.
G-d may always be correct but It’s a stretch to apply the concept of merciful to him.
oh so tiresome…
“If you disagree what’s your authority?”
I don’t need an authority.
@ Viiit:
Are you then androgynous?
It’s a good thing you have no say in the matter. You would “allow some as guests”? You are arrogant, only we Jews here get to decide on such matters
A Jew is any person whose mother was a Jew or any person who has gone through the formal process of Halakic conversion to
Judaism.
My authority: In Deuteronomy 7:1-5, in expressing the prohibition against intermarriage, G-d says “he [i.e., the non-Jewish male spouse] will cause your child to turn away from Me and they will worship the gods of others.” No such concern is expressed about the child of a non-Jewish female spouse. From this, we infer that the child of a non-Jewish male spouse is Jewish (and can therefore be turned away from Judaism), but the child of a non-Jewish female spouse is not Jewish (and therefore turning away is not an issue).
Leviticus 24:10 speaks of the son of an Israelite woman and an Egyptian man as being “among the community of Israel” (i.e., a Jew).
On the other hand, in Ezra 10:2-3, the Jews returning to Israel vowed to put aside their non-Jewish wives and the children born to those wives. They could not have put aside those children if those children were Jews.
If you disagree what’s your authority?
Why should a re-evaluation of the Torah be necessary? Either one is a real Jew or they are not. That you want to change a 3K year tradition and definition SHOWS YOUR ARROGANCE AND IGNORANCE which for us is a toxic combo.
You got at least one thing right but I would extend it to barring them entrance to Israel itself if possible.
Viiit Said:
I know so many things have already been posted on this website regarding your questions. According to the Bible, in 1 Samuel 8, Israel asked Samuel to give them a king like the gentiles. Based on their request the Lord ordered Samuel to anoint Saul as the first king of Israel. He did tell them the consequence of having earthly kings like the gentiles.God respected the free will of His people then and He know also respects the free will of individuals. If a person chooses a wrong stuff against what is clearly stated in the Bible and suffer a consequence, God shouldn’t be held responsible for his/her misdeeds. I can’t imagine the existence of Israel without the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Amos 9:14-15 thunders forth these remarkable words: “‘Also I will restore the captivity of My people Israel, and they will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them. They will also plant vineyards and drink their wine, and make gardens and eat their fruit. I will also plant them on their land, and they will not again be rooted out from their land which I have given them,’ says the Lord your God.” The RETURN of Jews to their land is a testimony to even non-believers about the faithfulness of God. The world likes to blame God for all of its failures. The Bible also talks about Satan. What happened during Holocaust was the works of Satan, who used evil men in order to get rid of the Jews. My personal opinion is that Satan hates the Jews in order to stop God’s plan of blessing them and making them to be a blessing to the entire world, according to Genesis 12:1-3. King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)”The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD’S: but the earth hath he given to the children of men.” For whatever goes on earth be it right or wrong, mankind is entirely responsible. I don’t think any person fully understands the mind of an infinite God with a finite mind.I believe God is a good and kind God. Despite our shortcomings He does good things in our favor. He changed what Satan meant for bad against the Jews during the Holocaust to Israel’s favor in order to be restored to their ancient land in 1948.
@ dweller:
dweller, if you are trying to confuse me, you have.
My free will is no longer free.
@ rongrand:
Your bad habits ARE real, yes.
The illusion to which I referred, Ron, is the absurd proposition that you ‘choose’ them of your own ‘free will.’ That proposition is what is NOT real.
NOBODY consciously & deliberately ‘chooses’ to create a habit which he himself regards as pernicious; the notion is bizarre.’
— Think about it.
What you characterize as a “weakness in self-control” is probative EVIDENCE that your will is not in fact free.
Would you believe. . . uh, Milk of Magnesia?
Castor Oil?
Prune Juice?
Ok, look, Ron, I offerred the analogy in an abbreviated way, because I was pressed for time.
What I was saying was that the idea that individuals in a fallen world have ‘free will’ may be compared, in the aggregate, to undemocratic countries where the people are offerred a ‘free election’ (just as man was originally given a free will).
An undemocratic people freely “elects” one tyranny or another — or, alternatively, in reaction against a former tyranny, “elects” an unstable government (ultimately it amounts to the same thing, since the consequent chaos of that instability, in turn, prompts a new outcry from the people for “order,” and which outcry is then filled by a “man on horseback” — who from that point onward, rules with an iron fist.
Net effect of those “free elections?”
— no more free elections.
The point?
God gave man an authentically free will, yes.
As long as man resigned that will to God’s leading — i.e., redirected it back to his Maker — he did not lack for strength, for sustenance, for guidance, or for understanding.
He was in fact immortal — and thus had no need to reproduce himself.
He then, however, used that free will in a manner that disobeyed the leading he was given.
And at that point he lost his bright nature — viz., his true identity & motive energy — and with it, his free will.
He became outwardly directed and, unlike before, a creature of his ENVIRONMENT rather than his Maker
— and thus compulsive, and subject to (among other things) every bad habit we can imagine (and an infinite number of other ones, no doubt, that we can’t) — including bad habits of thought & feeling
— subject to habits which affected his very physical body, as well as his body’s capacity to heal & regenerate itself.
Ultimately he became subject to death.
I would submit that, in the main, ‘free will’ is a fond illusion — and that IF there are any genuine possessors of the real article, they are as rare as hen’s teeth. What’s more, they probably don’t go out of their way to draw attention to themselves either.
Of course, society operates under the legal fiction that free will is real and general — because otherwise the court system could not operate, commerce could not function, contracts would be a joke, etc, etc, etc.
Do you think Qatar wants war with Israel and the United States? If they push too far, that is what will happen.
We have Abbas and company standing on the edge of a cliff, screaming and bellowing, “If Israel and the West won’t give us what we want we’ll start a 3rd intifada! So what if we stole the land in the first place? We are Arabs we take what we want” I hope Arab Palestinians who want peace and a safe place to raise their children will overthrow these G-d forsaken excuses for human beings whose G-d has already deserted them.
I’ve read on this site before that this issue will only be settled with a full blown war, and maybe this will be the way it works out.
yamit82 Said:
Do “laws of nature” exist apart from G_d? Can that which is created by G_d exist in conflict with his will? Are there Laws of Nature or do we presume that consistency of events means a law? Can it be that consistent events assumed to be law are not broken by G_d but merely an expression of G_ds omnipotence and that all outcomes flow from god, that laws are an expression of mans limitations of cognizance? Can the “breaking” of assumed natural law merely be G_ds’ expression that “laws” are meant to be broken, are a symbol of mans vanity and an expression of G_ds “natural Law”, not those of men? Did Einstein replace Newton, is Einstein being replaced, or are we still learning about G_d? Do men presume too much regarding their certainties about G_d? Just a couple of questions.
@ rongrand:
Laura you and Yamit are equally correct.
Now Israel has to take a position based on those statements.
I know I beat a dead horse but somehow we need to inspire American Jews to take a stand for Israel.
I just know if they would make an effort they could very well gather support from non-Jewish Americans.
Let’s face it all the Palestinians want to do is drive a stake in the heart of Jerusalem and Israel.
For starters how about local Jewish organizations working together with a write-in campaign with letters bearing the Star of David and gather as many Americans to send them to their members of both houses.
“We citizens of this great Nation request you as our represenative to stand with us on behalf of another great Nation Israel, a trusted friend and democracy honor and respect their sovereignty which includes all of Jerusalem and Israel from the Jordan River to the Mediterranian including the Golan Heights, all of Gaza and the Sinai.”
“In addition, in lieu of throwing away all the money on failing banks, auto manufacturers, etc. funds to be avaiable for relocating the Palestinians to Jordan and Egypt”
Of course this would need some professional tweaking in order for the knucleheads in Washington to understand.
I trust you get the idea.
I know it sounds crazy, something is better than nothing and silence.
Remember, congress knows regardles of all the lobbying and money contributed, its the citizens at the voting polls that get them elected.
@ dweller:
dweller, please it’s not an illusion.
My bad habits are of my own choosing, a weakness in self-control.
Although they are wrong, I at times elect to give into them.
It’s not an illusion, they are real.
dweller whatever your drinking, sounds like I should have some.
@ rongrand:
With all due respect, I would suggest that this is an illusion.
If in fact your will were truly free, those bad habits could not FORM in the first place.
Persistence in them is a compulsive act.
There is no freedom in compulsion.
We’re speaking here of something analogous to a “free election” in a culture not prepared for representative democracy:
The consequence is one man, one vote, one time. . . .
@ Viiit:
Gosh, I believe we are on the same page.
I am in total agreement.
We have no argument.
Now it’s important the government of Israel understands this.
@ rongrand:
As you said it is your choice to persist in your habits.
It was also your choice to create these habits.
If God helps you he will be violating your free will.
God helps you with whatever you choose out your free will. If you chose to persist in your habits, God helps you with that, even if such habits are detrimental. God is not your mama.
@ dweller:
Yes I have some bad habits and they are many.
I choose these habits on my own free will.
I am weak and I seek G-d’s help to overcome these bad habits.
I hope He doesn’t get tired of me asking for help.
@ rongrand:
No I am male. Again, what difference does this make?
I share your sentiment about Arabs. They can be guests in the Jewish states of Israel. But if they don’t behave then, they have overstayed their welcome. Secondly allowing Muslims to reside in Israel may be a bad judgment. While by far not all Muslims are antisemitic, Islam as such is antisemitic (Jew-hating). Jews who had to escape from antisemitism in the countries of the world should not have to deal with antisemites in the Jewish state.
I believe that all citizens of Israel should be Jews, and that only Jews should be allowed to be citizens. This requires clarification of who is a Jew. It requires discussion and re-evaluation of the definition. However one thing is clear, someone who hates Jews and is against the Jewish state either because of their personal inclination or because of their religion, should never be allowed to be a citizen of the Jewish state.
@ rongrand:
Quite so.
However, it does not follow from that fact that man continued to RETAIN that free will after it was given to him.
His compulsive behavior, as evidenced in (among other things) the matters addressed in Viiit’s first post, would suggest that ‘free will’ is nothing more than a falsely-comforting fantasy.
If you think that your OWN will is truly free, Ron, I would ask you the same question that I always ask whenever the proposition is raised:
Do you have any bad habits — you, personally — any bad habits at all?
— doesn’t matter what they are, only that you have habits, and that in your own estimation they are less-than-desirable ones. Do you have any bad habits?
Any at all?
. . . . So much for your ‘free will.’
@ Viiit:
viiit, FYI I am male and I gather you are a female.
Trust me I am not aggressive or arrogant, at least my friends don’t think so.
Again, I find it difficult to understand, Jerusalem is the capital of Israel, a sovereign Jewish Nation and it’s leaders don’t allow Jews to pray at their holies place, the Temple.
Who is in charge?
Time to rid the site of the rock throwing Arabs and take charge of the whole site.
If they don’t like it, tell them the door is open to move to any place in the Arab world to be sure the door doesn’t hit you in the ass on the way out.
@ rongrand:
I don’t know and don’t care if you are male or female. You are aggressive and arrogant, which are male qualities. But no certainty. And I agree with you, it is heartbreaking to think that religious Jews are not allowed to prey in their holiest place.
@ yamit82:
Not sure viiit is a male or female, either way I feel sorry for him or her.
A real sour puss.
If viiit lives in Israel I would suggest he or she visit the Temple.
Having said that, it upset me to think the Israeli government doesn’t allow Jews to pray at their own Temple.
Makes no sense.
@ Viiit:
😛
@ yamit82:
For your information Yamit82; I only read the first sentence of your writing. To me your tone comes across as arrogant, writing common platitudes as if they were some “great truth”.
You are of course welcome to write to me if you like. Perhaps someone else reads your responses.
@ rongrand:
Watch!!!
‘Vehi Sheamda’
The establishment of the Jewish State and our miraculous military victory in 48. the prophetic actualization of the in gathering of the Jewish people from the 4 corners of the globe, is another sign. The reemergence of a language, consigned to the libraries and antiquities of the Vatican and the House of Study; the stranger-than-fiction, miraculous victories over overwhelming enemies – these are the first steps into the final chapter of Jewish History and of our national redemption.
From the Passover Haggada
Vehi she’amda lavosaynu, v’hishamda lavosaynu v’lonu
She lo? echad bilvad amad aleinu l’chalosaynu, amad aleinu l’chalosaynu
V’HaKadosh Baruch Hu matzilaynu
Matzilaynu miyadam
Translation: And so it has stood for our fathers and for us, that it wasn’t just one nation alone that rose up? against us to destroy us, and The Holy One, Blessed is He, saves us from their hand
@ Viiit:
The G-d Of History: By Rabbi Meir Kahane H”YD
@ yamit82:
Yamit, your call.
I believe G-d started implementing by returning His people to the Holy Land.
I don’t think some of the Israeli leadership caught on as yet.
@ Viiit:
Who do you imagine G-d to be a Jolly kind of Santa Claus?
Ben Gurion described Eastern European Jewry as “human waste”. Imagine six million of them entering Israel before 1948. The War of Independence would have ended up in another Holocaust rather than al-Naqba. G-d does not do miracles by violating the laws of nature. Instead, he twists the odds. And all odds were twisted toward Holocaust.
Some call it divine punishment because of the massive assimilation of most Jews of Europe, their creating a religion divorced from the Land of Israel and by not making aliyah and clinging to the galut, despite all of the hardships and persecutions imposed upon them in Europe by every nation. And they had the chutzpa to laugh at Jabotinsky? Just like the generation of the Exodus was forced to wander till the generation had died out so too in that vain was European Jewry condemned.
Ben Gurion understood even before the event that 6 million fearful, obedient and compliant sheep was not the stuff of the future Jewish nation in Israel and besides we already had enough leftists and Marxists already ensconced in Palestine. Hitler removed the problem.
It is a mistake to impose your non Jewish ethics and moral compass on to G-d.
G-d has his plan and his ways of implementing.
@ Viiit:
For some it will be zero and for others it will be worth more.
Remember you are not obligated to buy it.
You have a free will to choose.
I am certain in spite of G-d leading His people to the Holy Land I am sure there were a few who decided not to take the trip.
All about free will.
@ rongrand:
You said “I have Israel and the IDF in my daily prayers and it doesn’t cost a cent.
The best buy in town.
Well, I can agree with the first part that “it does not cost anything”, however as far as I can see, the resale value is also Zero.
It is imperative to vote Obama out in November. I shudder to think about the damage he can do both domestically and in foreign affairs if he is given another four years.
@ Viiit:
Considering our history, I am sure He is.
Yes G-d does allow things to happen by allowing us to exercise our free will.
When does G-d not allow bad things to happen, when we seek His help.
Just maybe we lack the faith to seek His help.
I have Israel and the IDF in my daily prayers and it doesn’t cost a cent.
The best buy in town.
@ rongrand:
Everything true, until you said that “God does not allow this to happen”.
Obviously God does allow, or else it could not happen.
Unless you don’t believe that God is omnipotent ruler of the Universe.
If he is just some old man who once created the world, and now is just sitting on soe cloud and watching the horrors that we do here on Earth, then indeed I feel very sad for him. He must be terribly disappointed in his creation.
@ Viiit:
G-d provided man with a free will to choose right from wrong.
Man was influenced by lies supported by the liberal left media and george soros & co and the people elected a clown obama.
The majority took the wrong path.
The Holocaust, this is where mankind failed to act in the right direction. There were no exceptions, all the people, religious,Christians, Catholics all a like turned their backs allowing the Holocaust to take place.
I have no doubt this failure of man to protect his fellow man will go down in the history of mankind as the most upsetting to G-d
G-d doesn’t allow these to happen, we the people do.
@ Viiit:
The best answer is that Hashem orchestrated putting him there for a reason. You have to believe or understand that when posing those questions.
To the religious people:
Can you explain how is it that God allows people like Obama to be president of United States?
Perhaps this is the same question as to how did God allow the Holocaust.