Hagee brought the House down

10 Comments / 10 Comments

1. The AIPAC speech is a land mark in Jewish-Christian relations. The Jewish right has unconditionally accepted the Evangelical Christian support as have most Israelis. The Jewish left can’t break away from decades of suspicion, most of it well founded. When you grow up in a mixed society and have experience Christian anti-Semitism, experienced self righteous Christians discussing the “new covenant” and the “new Jerusalem” and have been snubbed by stylish Christians who don’t need any Jews, thank you, it’s difficult to shrug off all the old defenses and accept these people as people of good will. I remember when Oral Roberts, who became one of Israel’s best friends, used to speak of the new children of the covenant replacing those who pretend to be the children of Israel.

   Having said all that, and having grown up with the prejudices and the defense mechanisms, I believe the Christian right is our single best defense in the entire world. Only Jews who deny the threat from militant Islam could deny that. I suppose many Jews are waiting for the second shoe to drop, i.e. asking how long this feeling of good will may last.

2. Maybe the “Palestinians” should consider part of Uganda for creation a Palestinian state, the Jewish people aren’t using it. More seriously — The conflict can be stopped at anytime the “Palestinians” wish to stop it for they are the aggressors Israeli has only taken defensive measure throughout this and even has restrained responding to terrorist acts and provocations on many occasions.

   The crux of the matter is this: The “Palestinians” and the surrounding Arab nations reject a Jewish state in their region. The “Palestinians” are used as an occasion against Israel, not so much because of their plight but for a justification for conflict. This is more about the presence of the Jewish people as an establishment under their own rule as a state than it is about anything else. Therefore, there is no resolution as long as the determination of the surrounding nations is to create a totally Islamic Middle-East.

   It comes down to collectivism, in this case Islamic collectivism that which determines to eliminate anything it deems foreign. As has been repeated here so often – There is no diplomatic solution.

   What has, and what will continue to take place is the effort to undermine the state of Israel by the Arabs through international pressure in order to first weaken the state. This is an ongoing process that has been pursued for years with some success. As Israel’s enemies are getting stronger and acquiring more armaments, the GoI has become weaker. Eventually when militant Islamic countries believe Israel is weakened sufficiently and no more can be gained through manipulation of the international community, they will confront Israel militarily, possibly in some manner that is strategically designed to avoid an all out assault and quick defeat at the hand of the Israelis.

   They were pleased with some of the results in Lebanon so they may try to wear Israel down by a low intensity conflict over a long period of time rather than by amassing an army to engage in direct confrontation.

   At any rate, a violent conflict is coming to Israel and the Islamic nations will work very cunningly, first to weaken, and then to destroy. At this point there is no alternative reality to that, and there is no changing it until it runs its course.

3. Munaeen asked about a solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. He should consider giving nothing to the Jews and asking nothing from them. Leave Sumaria and Judea to the mixed population that lives there now. Let go of the right of return and the Golan Heights. Concentrate on looking inward instead of outward for solutions. Dugard of South Africa sees the need for a Palestinian state, but his view, like that of the Palestinians, if implemented would create a complete Apartheid state without Jews and with few if any Christians. All Palestinians, given the choice, would prefer to live in Israel. It is freer, more productive, sweeter than anything they have created. Israel draws a line and every Arab tries to remain on the Israeli side whether in Jerusalem or in Ghajar(?) on the Lebanese border. Individual Arabs prefer the altruism of Israel to the clan restrictions of their own society. They know “safe” when they see it. Munaeen too knows that Israel with all its warts is relatively better in so many ways. Munaeen, re-create Israel in your own family, city, or country. That should be your life’s goal.

4. Don’t want to dampen the enthusiasm about Hagee or CUFI (of which I am reluctantly a member), but while agreeing with most of the Israel stance of Hagee (a dispensationalist, by the way), certain aspects of Hagee’s ministry give me caution as does the fact that CUFI has several highly questionable pastors associated with it–the kind that can bring scandal with them and shame to the overall movement. I say, don’t get too excited. Sorry.

5. Munaeem asks

   What do you suggest for ending the Arab-Israeli conflict?

   To start with the Arabs believe that the creation of Israel was an historic wrong which should be undone. The Jews obviously feel otherwise. So the first thing that is needed is for the Arabs to accept the legitimacy of Israel. Now the Arabs either say never or they want to reduce Israel to borders which leave it indefensible. There is a lot of ego here at stake for the Arabs and there is the dictates of their religion which requires them to recover land they once possessed. Israel should not satisfy either of these needs. I see no possibility of a two state solution and there is much evidence to suggest the Arabs should not be trusted to keep any agreement.

   So what do I suggest.
   1. Arabs should settle their refugees just as the Jews did settle their refugees from Arab countries.
   2. The Arabs do not need a 23rd state. All Arabs refugees should be resettled with national rights in Arab countries. The Arabs can afford this.
   3. The Jews need a strong defensible Israel and so should keep the Westbank.
   4. The Arabs living there should be encouraged to leave with financial support. The terrorists among them should be expelled. The rest must sign a pledge of allegiance to Israel or move. All Arabs in Israel must accept that Israel is a Jewish state as all Arab countries are Islamic states. I have no doubt that even with these stipulations the Arabs in Israel will have more human rights than Arabs do in their countries.

   You may argue that such a solution is so one sided and so it is. Jews need this state. Arabs just want this state. They don’t need it and can easily live without it.

   The resistance among Arabs to such a solution would be enormous, not because they care about “Palestinians”, but because the humiliation would be too great for them and Islam doesn’t permit it.

   That’s why this conflict has gone on for 100 years.

6. Whether you are secular or religious it is obvious that devout believers are very black and white people who separate good from evil. Some people think it is too simplistic an approach, however, I have not seen anyone yet successful in the art of appeasement of violent extremist. It did not work in WWII and and it hasn’t worked since. If it has ever worked, it has at best resulted in the bondage, slavery, and oppression of the appeasers.

7. I come again in the name of unity. Not the unity of Jew and those who merely call themselves christian but those Christians who are as willing to die for the nation of Israel as any Jew who now walks the earth. I am one and I speak for thousands of others when I say that Christian denominations are many and as varied in their practice and beliefe as Orthodox and Neo-Orthodox Jews. I know and understand very little about the differences in the various Jewish sects except that they don’t agree on anything. To those Jews who think that Christians are hard to sort according to belief, you are wrong. The difference in Christians is this: Those who truly follow Christ and those who talk about it.
   I couldn’t pass the test for Rabbi in the Sephardic Community, they would reject me without doubt. Still, I am a racial Jew, from a family of Rabbi’s, although my family has followed Christ since my GGG grandfather died.
   I am still a Jew in my heart and I and thousands of others just like me would be willing to die for Israel even though when I desired to make Allayah, I was rejected due to my faith. They didn’t want any Christians in Israel unless we brought money and went home after the week-end.
   But here is the rub: we may be all that stands between you and disaster when the wolf comes to the door.
   Better that you should make friends now than express your doubts about how solid we are.
   The Jews of Poland didn’t complain when the Gestappo came for the Catholics and the Protestants and when they came for the Jews, there was no one left to complain.
   What do we learn from History?
   My point is that you must make a distinction between practicing Christianity and those who make mouth noises. John Haggee walks the walk. We’re not all alike.

8. Ted
   What do you suggest for ending the Arab-Israeli conflict ?

9. Fern Sidman wrote up this speech and others at the convention and her article can be found at Voice of Judea.

   [..] Pastor Hagee was one of the few speakers that actually mentioned G-d and the Bible in his speech and draw Biblical parallels to those who sought to annihilate the Jewish people, but who in the end were destroyed by the hand of G-d. Speaking of Pharaoh in Egypt he said that he “became fish food in the Red Sea” when he attempted to pursue the Jews who had just been liberated from Egypt after hundreds of years of bondage. Pastor Hagee also made reference to Haman in Persia which he said was modern day Iran and how his nefarious plot to have Mordechai hanged on the gallows turned right back around at him and it was Haman who in the end would be hanged. He warned all those enemies of the Jewish people to think twice before attempting to obliterate G-d’s chosen people.

   Despite the fact that Pastor Hagee’s speech was met with an enthusiastic reception by the AIPAC membership, when the Pastor said that there is “the Torah way and then the wrong way”, that remark only drew a mild and at best luke warm response from the audience. It appears that Pastor Hagee was one of the few people at the conference that actually embraced the teachings of the Torah. He then led the audience in a rousing chant of “Israel Lives” and promised the AIPAC members that Israel and the Jewish people would never be alone.

   It is clear that Pastor Hagee was the shining star at the AIPAC convention. This is a man who is not afraid to intone the name of G-d, to boldly and courageously call the enemies of the Jewish people evil perpetrators. This is a man who embraces G-d’s word and reveres the Torah. The AIPAC membership and the Jewish people can learn a most valuable and important lesson from Pastor Hagee.

10. Much better video at http://www.jerusalemonline.com/specials.asp.

    Powerful delivery. Not sure about the 50 million evangelicals, and they certainly are not monolithic, but their numbers are considerable. And while I may have some theological differences with the pastor, there is a growing awareness among Christians that there expression of devotion to G-d rings hollow if it does not include love, devotion, and a practical passion for His people, His land, and His Torah.